Something is shifting... in need of advice

[mountaingirl]

Hello!

Life has been great for several months now, but that may in part have been due to a lack of communication.

These past few months, Joe (my husband) and I have been doing awesome. We've been speaking each other's love languages; I have been doing little acts of love for him and he's been cuddling me more we've been focusing on us which I appreciate so much after a year of living apart and initiating a romantic relationship with John. The rules were simple... Joe didn't want to talk about it. He didn't ask questions and urged me not to bring up what John (boyfriend) and I were doing; to focus on him and I when we were together and simply be present. At the end of August I confronted him about rules he had been asking me to follow (no physical intimacy, i.e. no cuddling or anything further with John) were not working for me. Him and John had a similar conversation. It pissed Joe off initially that we were on the same page, but he consented to me that I was free to do whatever, he just didn't want to hear about it.

So I've been doing what I want! There have essentially been no boundaries with John the past few months, except keeping everything we do not obvious to Joe; i.e. no PDA around him or our roommates and friends. There have been a couple slip ups (Joe seeing us cuddling once, me sitting on John's knee one time) but other than that things have been great. I realize now that a rule of don't ask don't tell may not have been the best idea for 3 people LIVING TOGETHER, but Joe was genuinely happy and we would still have conversations about John and I, they just weren't specific.

John and I went on a date this past weekend; it was a rare moment just for us, and we reflected on what the past year has been like (we confronted our feelings about each other in December of last year). It's been bumpy at times, but we've learned a lot about ourselves and gotten a lot closer. When we got home, Joe called me on his way home from work, asked "How was your day" ... then "what did you and John do" ... then ... "have you had sex with John recently" ...
I answered honestly with yes. He was mad, which honestly took me surprise. After talking with him, I realized it wasn't just us having sex; he was also angry that we went on a date together. Joe did, however want to make it clear to me that our relationship has been doing great, and that the last few months of marital bliss have not gone unnoticed/been negated by this situation. BUT he is angry with John. I tried to take some of the blame for this (my decisions as well as his), and the ensuing argument was actually really helpful. Joe opened up about how he imagines John and I having sex and how it makes him feel, that he loves me unconditionally and wants me to do what makes me feel good and has recognized the good it does for our relationship, but is finding it hard to be around John as a result.

It gets difficult at times to talk with both of them (always individually), because I know they just want me to be happy + be with me but I just want them to be happy. Maybe it's been difficult for me to acknowledge the 'power' that I have a as a hinge in this situation... like a lot of people I struggle to feel deserving of love and those feelings are amplified when I'm receiving it from multiple directions. Joe is willing to ask more of me because we were partners initially. John is willing to take whatever I can give him, because he feels as if he is an interloper. I have been honest with both of them from the beginning in that my ideal would be all of us living together and me being able to be intimate with both of them. That dream has shifted, however, as I see that John and I can't have much time alone together, and the distress that it causes Joe.

I have started the conversation with John by asking the questions: What do you want? What is important to you? So that we can start from there. I have an idea from past conversations that our future together looks like him having his own place near me and Joe's. Joe has expressed to me in the past that he want's to live alone with me eventually. We have all had a plan of running a farm/coop together with a few of our other friends, and everyone having their own homes near each other so this checks out and also explains why trying to continue a relationship with both of them while we all live under the same roof is difficult at times.

I see all of our wants and needs and the actions (including some mistakes) that we've taken to get there. I just can't get John and Joe to love each other/see each other the way that I do, and I'm not sure I ever will (they share love, but more brotherly love). I don't think there is resentment yet, but I don't want it to get there and I DON'T want either of them OR me (!!) to be unhappy... I'm not sure how long it should take but it's been 8 months since John and I first had sex and I want to minimize how long each of them have to work on this. It hurts that I am doing so well with both of them individually but they are on completely opposite pages. Planning to mediate a conversation between the two of them this evening.

I guess my questions might be: has anyone had to move from live in polyamory to living away from one or both partners (not because of career stuff or kids, but because everyone wanted their own space)? How did that work? Are there any red flags in my behavior/my partners behavior that I haven't acknowledged?

Thanks everyone For the one millionth time, this forum is awesome. Even just typing out all of this and knowing someone is out there who understands/cares helps so much.

 

[mountaingirl]

Also realizing as I reread that NRE may have something to do with my comments about "not having enough alone time with John" ;P

 

[mountaingirl]

And I remember on a previous post someone asked if I was worried about Joe leaving, which is why I tiptoe around him. Definitely not, I know that Joe would stick with me through anything and our marriage means a lot to him, but I don't want to be taking advantage of that by doing whatever I want and expecting him to adjust. I just don't think he sees how John and I have had to adjust already... He feels like the only one making real compromises and while I understand where he is coming from I don't think that is necessarily true.

 

[dingedheart]

Why do you think something is shifting ? Other than the recent blow up about the date and recent sex . Doesn’t seem like anything is really shifting in terms of Joes attitude or his ability to deal with the actual reality of the situation.

Things to consider 1) maybe Joe really isn’t cut out for this instead of living in this bubble of denial or being tortured out in the open he needs to be set free from this.
2) seriously think about split time however that would work …days or by the week.

 

[GalaGirl]

I hope you feel better for the vent.

The people all seem willing to be here. Each person is in charge of their own consent.

I have been honest with both of them from the beginning in that my ideal would be all of us living together and me being able to be intimate with both of them. That dream has shifted, however, as I see that John and I can't have much time alone together, and the distress that it causes Joe.

Fair enough. You used to have this NRE dream of everyone living together. Tried it out for a while.

Reality check?

Turns out it might be better to have a more separate V rather than a cohabitating V. Then Joe has his space and John and his space. Maybe you go between two homes.

Could bring that up and try that out for the next year.

Sounds like Joe is still getting used to sharing you as a lover. And honestly when he asks you if you and John shared sex? You could STOP telling him because details are not his business. Plus he already knows.

Remember this?

It pissed Joe off initially that we were on the same page, but he consented to me that I was free to do whatever, he just didn't want to hear about it.

So then later when he doesn't respect his own boundary about not wanting to hear details about it?

When we got home, Joe called me on his way home from work, asked "How was your day" ... then "what did you and John do" ... then ... "have you had sex with John recently" ...

Instead of telling him this...

I answered honestly with yes. He was mad, which honestly took me surprise.

You could tell him "You already know John is my other partner. And you asked me not to tell you details so no. I'm not going to answer that." You could hold him accountable to his own personal boundary.

And because details are NOT only your info. It is also John's and he might not appreciate you sharing TMI details about every sex encounter with Joe. It makes you a blabbermouth.

And it isn't Joe's business. He already knows John is a lover and I assume whatever safer sex practices you all agree to. What's he need TMI details for?

If this is a issue he needs more help with and he WANTS to overcome it? Maybe he can try the jealousy workbook. Or try talking to a poly counselor. Or try something else. It's his stuff to solve. You can suggest, but he has to do the actual work.

John could also move out to reduce triggering Joe and get his OWN space which he seems to want.

If this is a bigger issue and not like growing pains? Joe doesn't want to be in a V any more at all? You could ask him direct.

It gets difficult at times to talk with both of them (always individually), because I know they just want me to be happy + be with me but I just want them to be happy.

Could you please be willing to clarify? I don't get this part.

Do you have a problem believing they are happy enough here despite bumps in the road?

Or you think they tell you whatever you want to hear and are not actually being emotionally honest?

Or you have a hard time hearing that Joe is not used to your other lover living here in his home? And maybe prefers some emotional space away from that? Because he's not great at articulating that directly?

I struggle to feel deserving of love and those feelings are amplified when I'm receiving it from multiple directions.

That part sounds like your personal work to be doing. To become more able to like/love yourself and accept love from others.

Not really anything to do with Joe or John.

John is willing to take whatever I can give him, because he feels as if he is an interloper.

And that stuff? That's John's stuff to work on. Not your stuff.

Sounds like all three have some stuff to do.

I just can't get John and Joe to love each other/see each other the way that I do, and I'm not sure I ever will (they share love, but more brotherly love).

And brotherly love is BAD somehow? WHY do they have to see the world through your lens? They can't each view the world through their own point of view?

Are you trying to turn this into a triad?

How about you let their relationship/friendship be how THEY want it be? They can talk to each other direct about their issues without you serving like a referee or something.

I don't think there is resentment yet, but I don't want it to get there and I DON'T want either of them OR me (!!) to be unhappy...

I mean this kindly ok? You could let that "I don't want anyone to be ever be unhappy" thing go. Things happen in life. And it might not even be unhappy that relates to you -- sometimes parents die, one gets fired, is mad they dropped the lasagna...whatever. Some feelings are fun to feel. Some are not so fun. It is what it is. And then usually all feelings pass in time.

What you could focus on instead is being being in right relationship with your partners.

• Don't blabbermouth sex details.
• Hold people accountable to agreements and you hold them up too.
• Respect other people's personal boundaries, and have some of your own.
• Stay out if it when it is something they need to deal with on their own, between them two.
• Acknowledge that the experiment of living together has had it's run and maybe time to try something else. Thank them for trying. Then ask if they might might be willing to try living apart next and how that might look like.

I'm not sure how long it should take but it's been 8 months since John and I first had sex and I want to minimize how long each of them have to work on this.

Why is that your job? I get you not ADDING to the load from any of your behaviors, but really in the end? You cannot do their personal work FOR them.

Like if each one had to make a painting. Ok, you could help by making lunch so each one can paint rather than cook. Not play loud music and have a party with your friends if it's supposed to be quiet art time.

But you cannot MAKE them paint. Not your job to shop for brushes, and paint, and canvas, and hold their hand with the brush in it. There is such thing as OVERDOING, right?

And you cannot pick their work. Their work is their own. Or when they do their painting time. And maybe Joe does a simple painting in acrylics that doesn't take long and he likes to paint in the morning. And John does a complex one in oils that takes more time and he likes to paint in the night.

You can't hurry them along in each of their processes just because YOU feel anxious or on pins and needles because you have trouble accepting and receiving their love.

Their stuff is THEIR work to be doing.

I could be wrong but it's almost like you are struggling with anxiety about making sure this is good for them too and not just good for you so you stress and fret and maybe overstep boundaries in some areas or get too wishy-washy about holding up agreements in other areas?

Is that true?

It hurts that I am doing so well with both of them individually but they are on completely opposite pages. Planning to mediate a conversation between the two of them this evening.

From the sound of it? As an outsider? To me it sounds like both might welcome the idea of not living together any more and trying separate homes instead. Nearby homes might be good enough or better. Doesn't sound opposite.

So I don't get what you mean.

What is opposite pages? And who is in discomfort around that? And did either one ask you to mediate anything?

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

I understand how you (personally) would like you all to live together, all kumbaya hakuna matata. But not all Vs are cut out to be cohabiting Vs. As the hinge, it's natural that you want both men by your side. But you see how the reality is: you can't show (semi) PDAs in your own home because Joe can't take it. If John had his own place nearby, you could snuggle, kiss and fuck in every room whenever you wanted.

I don't want to live with my partner's OSO and he doesn't want to live with me. If we ever did, it would have to be me in a separate apartment in his house, or something. Of course, now I have a new bf and we'd love to spend more time together too, so maybe someday (if things keep working out with Aries) Pixi and I will buy a house with an apartment for HIM to live in! lol It's never going to be perfect.

I don't mind in the least seeing Pixi and Malachi show PDAs when I go to his house for dinner... But I wouldn't want to share a bathroom or kitchen with him full time, and I'd like to be able to walk around the house naked (or semi naked), and I couldn't do that with him around! And Malachi is an introvert. Having just Pixi in his house a lot took him a while to warm up to.

I think it would be great if John would get a nearby apartment.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi mountaingirl,

I lived apart from my two poly companions for a few years a while back. And at the time, it was exactly what our V needed. I am quite a private person, it has been hard for me to mingle with others in the past. I got better at it, and eventually the three of us lived again under one roof. I still have my own bedroom though, and they have theirs. I even have my own bathroom. It works for us.

Based on your description, I have to say that John should have a separate domicile from you and Joe. Maybe it won't always be that way, but it needs to be that way right now. Also I don't think Joe is ready to hear about what you and John do together.

Just my observations,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Marcus]

Joe is willing to ask more of me because we were partners initially. John is willing to take whatever I can give him, because he feels as if he is an interloper.

I'm sure he does feel like an interloper, because that's how he is being treated. Is he cool with being a clear secondary to Joe? Or is he unhappy and want to be treated as if his relationship with you isn't a dirty little secret? I understand that some people don't mind being relegated to "secondary" because it fits with their limited needs/interest, but that certainly isn't a position that everyone is going to be comfortable in.

I'd like to get John on here so he can voice his concerns. I expect he could use someone to talk to about this.

I have been honest with both of them from the beginning in that my ideal would be all of us living together and me being able to be intimate with both of them. That dream has shifted, however, as I see that John and I can't have much time alone together, and the distress that it causes Joe.

Is Joe interested in being polyamorous? It sounds like he is not at all cool with this and you guys just aren't being honest with each other.

I guess my questions might be: has anyone had to move from live in polyamory to living away from one or both partners (not because of career stuff or kids, but because everyone wanted their own space)? How did that work?

Is the adjustment of moving John out of the house because "everyone wanted their own space"? It sounds like Joe wants your lover to get the hell out, so that he can keep pretending that you don't have a lover. Have I misunderstood?

Are there any red flags in my behavior/my partners behavior that I haven't acknowledged?

For me, this bit with Joe asking for information and then dumping on you about it is a red flag waving high and bright.

It pissed Joe off initially that we were on the same page, but he consented to me that I was free to do whatever, he just didn't want to hear about it..

When we got home, Joe called me on his way home from work, asked "How was your day" ... then "what did you and John do" ... then ... "have you had sex with John recently" ...
I answered honestly with yes. He was mad, which honestly took me surprise. After talking with him, I realized it wasn't just us having sex; he was also angry that we went on a date together.

That's some old school emotional manipulation where I come from. If my partner asked me about details of one of my other relationships and then freaked out on me... I would likely laugh because I would presume they were just kidding. Once I found out they weren't kidding, I would immediately be concerned that they were having some kind of reaction to medication or possibly have something tragic going on with their neurological make-up.

That kind of BS isn't acceptable in my world, not in my friendships, not with romantic associations, none of it. That's even a red flag with people I work with, come on.

 

[Vicki82]

I'm with Marcus- this sounds like John isn't getting treated fairly at all. It sounds like Joe doesn't really want to be poly- and all those rules he was trying to enforce on a relationship he isn't part of sounds very controlling.

 

[mountaingirl]

I'm sure he does feel like an interloper, because that's how he is being treated. Is he cool with being a clear secondary to Joe? Or is he unhappy and want to be treated as if his relationship with you isn't a dirty little secret? I understand that some people don't mind being relegated to "secondary" because it fits with their limited needs/interest, but that certainly isn't a position that everyone is going to be comfortable in.

I'd like to get John on here so he can voice his concerns. I expect he could use someone to talk to about this.



Is Joe interested in being polyamorous? It sounds like he is not at all cool with this and you guys just aren't being honest with each other.



Is the adjustment of moving John out of the house because "everyone wanted their own space"? It sounds like Joe wants your lover to get the hell out, so that he can keep pretending that you don't have a lover. Have I misunderstood?



For me, this bit with Joe asking for information and then dumping on you about it is a red flag waving high and bright.




That's some old school emotional manipulation where I come from. If my partner asked me about details of one of my other relationships and then freaked out on me... I would likely laugh because I would presume they were just kidding. Once I found out they weren't kidding, I would immediately be concerned that they were having some kind of reaction to medication or possibly have something tragic going on with their neurological make-up.

That kind of BS isn't acceptable in my world, not in my friendships, not with romantic associations, none of it. That's even a red flag with people I work with, come on.

I mean... I also want our relationship to not be treated like a secret lol. I've told Joe (as I mentioned when alluding to John and I's 'adjustments' on an edit to my original post) that I feel like both John and I have compromised by keeping it a secret from our friends and not rubbing it in Joe's face. I would love for him and Joe to get on this site! They both know I post here and I walk them thru my posts sometimes, they just have no interest in doing it themselves.
John and I's relationship is still p new, so while we've never talked about him being "secondary" persay, we are still learning a lot about each other in a relationship and I don't yet consider my romantic relationship with him as on the same level as me and Joe's. We were friends first though, and I make it clear to him that I care about his security and comfort so there's no way he'd be forced out of the house or doing something he doesn't want to. I will give you the point about Joe asking these questions; I felt stepped on in that moment and bad for John that Joe was asking private shit about what we do together when it was explained that this could happen at any point. I explained to Joe that his rule of not talking until he wants to ask me confrontational questions sucks.
Aside from that, Joe is in no way forcing John to leave or even asking him to, just expressing that things would be easier for him at this stage if our rooms weren't right next to each other. We had all lived together pre romantic relationship between John and I, so I think everyone was very optimistic about sharing house chores/space, but maybe shouldn't have extended that optimism to this transitional stage. The reality may be that neither of them want to be secondaries (if that distinction needs to be made) and the solution to that problem would most definitely be living separately. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think that 8 months is a very long time (5 of those months were spent on and off long distance!) and we are all being patient with each other; yes Joe was angry which sucks; John is an abysmal communicator at times; I can be a giant anxiety ball. Everyone has their shit they're working on.

 

[mountaingirl]

I hope you feel better for the vent.

The people all seem willing to be here. Each person is in charge of their own consent.



Fair enough. You used to have this NRE dream of everyone living together. Tried it out for a while.

Reality check?

Turns out it might be better to have a more separate V rather than a cohabitating V. Then Joe has his space and John and his space. Maybe you go between two homes.

Could bring that up and try that out for the next year.

Sounds like Joe is still getting used to sharing you as a lover. And honestly when he asks you if you and John shared sex? You could STOP telling him because details are not his business. Plus he already knows.

Remember this?



So then later when he doesn't respect his own boundary about not wanting to hear details about it?



Instead of telling him this...



You could tell him "You already know John is my other partner. And you asked me not to tell you details so no. I'm not going to answer that." You could hold him accountable to his own personal boundary.

And because details are NOT only your info. It is also John's and he might not appreciate you sharing TMI details about every sex encounter with Joe. It makes you a blabbermouth.

And it isn't Joe's business. He already knows John is a lover and I assume whatever safer sex practices you all agree to. What's he need TMI details for?

If this is a issue he needs more help with and he WANTS to overcome it? Maybe he can try the jealousy workbook. Or try talking to a poly counselor. Or try something else. It's his stuff to solve. You can suggest, but he has to do the actual work.

John could also move out to reduce triggering Joe and get his OWN space which he seems to want.

If this is a bigger issue and not like growing pains? Joe doesn't want to be in a V any more at all? You could ask him direct.



Could you please be willing to clarify? I don't get this part.

Do you have a problem believing they are happy enough here despite bumps in the road?

Or you think they tell you whatever you want to hear and are not actually being emotionally honest?

Or you have a hard time hearing that Joe is not used to your other lover living here in his home? And maybe prefers some emotional space away from that? Because he's not great at articulating that directly?



That part sounds like your personal work to be doing. To become more able to like/love yourself and accept love from others.

Not really anything to do with Joe or John.



And that stuff? That's John's stuff to work on. Not your stuff.

Sounds like all three have some stuff to do.



And brotherly love is BAD somehow? WHY do they have to see the world through your lens? They can't each view the world through their own point of view?

Are you trying to turn this into a triad?

How about you let their relationship/friendship be how THEY want it be? They can talk to each other direct about their issues without you serving like a referee or something.



I mean this kindly ok? You could let that "I don't want anyone to be ever be unhappy" thing go. Things happen in life. And it might not even be unhappy that relates to you -- sometimes parents die, one gets fired, is mad they dropped the lasagna...whatever. Some feelings are fun to feel. Some are not so fun. It is what it is. And then usually all feelings pass in time.

What you could focus on instead is being being in right relationship with your partners.

• Don't blabbermouth sex details.
• Hold people accountable to agreements and you hold them up too.
• Respect other people's personal boundaries, and have some of your own.
• Stay out if it when it is something they need to deal with on their own, between them two.
• Acknowledge that the experiment of living together has had it's run and maybe time to try something else. Thank them for trying. Then ask if they might might be willing to try living apart next and how that might look like.

Why is that your job? I get you not ADDING to the load from any of your behaviors, but really in the end? You cannot do their personal work FOR them.

Like if each one had to make a painting. Ok, you could help by making lunch so each one can paint rather than cook. Not play loud music and have a party with your friends if it's supposed to be quiet art time.

But you cannot MAKE them paint. Not your job to shop for brushes, and paint, and canvas, and hold their hand with the brush in it. There is such thing as OVERDOING, right?

And you cannot pick their work. Their work is their own. Or when they do their painting time. And maybe Joe does a simple painting in acrylics that doesn't take long and he likes to paint in the morning. And John does a complex one in oils that takes more time and he likes to paint in the night.

You can't hurry them along in each of their processes just because YOU feel anxious or on pins and needles because you have trouble accepting and receiving their love.

Their stuff is THEIR work to be doing.

I could be wrong but it's almost like you are struggling with anxiety about making sure this is good for them too and not just good for you so you stress and fret and maybe overstep boundaries in some areas or get too wishy-washy about holding up agreements in other areas?

Is that true?



From the sound of it? As an outsider? To me it sounds like both might welcome the idea of not living together any more and trying separate homes instead. Nearby homes might be good enough or better. Doesn't sound opposite.

So I don't get what you mean.

What is opposite pages? And who is in discomfort around that? And did either one ask you to mediate anything?

Galagirl

I feel like every time you reply it's a reminder not to try to do work for the two of them and I thank you for that :') I am uncomfortable because THEY are not getting along/seeing eye to eye (the opposite pages) but it's not MY job to mediate, so I'm dropping it. They will figure it out and both know I'm willing to be there for a conversation and offer my opinion, which I've already done with both of them individually. It's not my fault that Joe can stay mad longer at John than me, and that John is not communicating effectively with Joe. Joe has expressed that his feelings will pass with time, albeit less time if John would talk with him about it (or just listen) but whatever.

I was feeling cornered and like withholding the information form Joe would be immoral, but yes no "blabbermouthing" would be a good idea. I was doing really well in not sharing information between the two of them and goofed up.

I worry that they are not being emotionally honest because they want me to be happy. I do also feel a bit of guilt for them adjusting so much for me. This was never a part of the agreement when Joe and I got married, and John could easily be with a monogamous partner who none of these problems would crop up with.

I'm totally fine with living separately and think it would help all of us; I mentioned this to both of them. They both expressed interest in it, but since this isn't an immediate issue and we all have careers/school, we're tabling it for now and taking a breather to think it over.

 

[GalaGirl]

I feel like every time you reply it's a reminder not to try to do work for the two of them and I thank you for that :')

Glad you took in in spirited intended. It's not the hinge's job to run around doing all the things JUST because they are the hinge.

I am uncomfortable because THEY are not getting along/seeing eye to eye (the opposite pages) but it's not MY job to mediate, so I'm dropping it. They will figure it out and both know I'm willing to be there for a conversation and offer my opinion, which I've already done with both of them individually. It's not my fault that Joe can stay mad longer at John than me, and that John is not communicating effectively with Joe. Joe has expressed that his feelings will pass with time, albeit more time if John would talk with him about it (or just listen) but whatever.

Yup. Their stuff to solve. Not yours.

Watching them be all whatever... is a drag for you if you live with them. But that's what you signed up for in choosing to live all together in a cohabitating V.

As they process their own emotions? You have to manage your anxiety from watching it without letting your anxiety suck you into their biz.

I was feeling cornered and like withholding the information form Joe would be immoral, but yes no "blabbermouthing" would be a good idea. I was doing really well in not sharing information between the two of them and goofed up.

It happens. People are not perfect.

Yes, sometimes you are a couple. But you are also an individual with things in your life you do not share.

It is NOT immoral to tell a spouse "No, that's not your business." I don't show my husband every booger than comes out of me or every period pad I change out. He's totally fine skipping that. I don't need to see his boogers or toilet paper when he wipes. All of that is just TMI details.

I think TMI details about (you+John) falls in that same category.

When you feel cornered? Learn to practice the pause. Not just "react" to whatever in the moment.

But take the pause. So you can carefully RESPOND after thinking. Not just blurt whatever.

I worry that they are not being emotionally honest because they want me to be happy.

You could ask them if they are being emotionally honest or just saying whatever you want to hear. Give the opportunity to make clean breast of it. Then after that?

Just believe them at face value even if they don't say what they mean. If that behavior bites them in the ass later? Maybe that's what it takes for them to learn to communicate more up front.

Because you are all adults. And you cannot be a mind reader. So stop trying to "carry" them so much.

I do also feel a bit of guilt for them adjusting so much for me. This was never a part of the agreement when Joe and I got married, and John could easily be with a monogamous partner who none of these problems would crop up with.

Again... you are all adults.

Joe could have told you "No, thanks. I didn't sign up for this. I don't want to be in a V." Same with John.

At some point you have to stop trying to prod after them like a mom chasing kids and just LET THEM BE ADULTS who agreed to be in this V. Good times and not so good times. There's going to be the growing pains stage where you each have to confront your various things.

I'm not trying to be mean to you when I say that.

Just that you have to maintain your personal boundaries if you are going to reduce your anxiety. I see that you care for each of them, and that's fine. But you have to care for YOU too, and not be running yourself ragged trying to do other people jobs FOR them just because you wish they'd hurry it up.

Be ok LIVING THROUGH this stage of it. I know you used to live together with you and Joe as a couple and then John as the friend/roomie. Then everyone was apart... but how long have you been living together as a cohabitating V? That doesn't sound long. Things take time to shake out. That whole "forming, storming, and norming" thing.

I'm totally fine with living separately and think it would help all of us; I mentioned this to both of them. They both expressed interest in it, but since this isn't an immediate issue and we all have careers/school, we're tabling it for now and taking a breather to think it over.

Fair enough. But talk it out.

Galagirl

 

[Marcus]

I mean... I also want our relationship to not be treated like a secret lol. I've told Joe (as I mentioned when alluding to John and I's 'adjustments' on an edit to my original post) that I feel like both John and I have compromised by keeping it a secret from our friends and not rubbing it in Joe's face.

I didn't realize that you were also interested in keeping your romantic interest in Joe a secret from everyone. I had difficulty with figuring out the chain of events, so I misunderstood that particular part.

Does Joe want to be a secret? I get that you and Joe have your own thing you are trying to figure out, but I hope that you are remembering to treat John well at the same time. Do you know if he wants to be in this kind of association? Is that something you are concerned about?

John and I's relationship is still p new, so while we've never talked about him being "secondary" persay, we are still learning a lot about each other in a relationship and I don't yet consider my romantic relationship with him as on the same level as me and Joe's.

All relationships are different, and you will find that is always going to be the case. Your relationship with John is never going to be on the "same level" as your relationship with Joe, and your relationship with Joe is never going to be on the "same level" as your relationship with John. They are two completely different people and your history and dynamic with them will always be their own creature.

I recommend against using this as an excuse to justify how you treat Joe (or John, or anyone). Treating someone with respect does not require that they reach a certain level, it only requires that you hold treating people with respect as a high value.

I will give you the point about Joe asking these questions; I felt stepped on in that moment and bad for John that Joe was asking private shit about what we do together when it was explained that this could happen at any point. I explained to Joe that his rule of not talking until he wants to ask me confrontational questions sucks.

It does suck, it's petty and childish, and I'm glad you stood up for yourself.