SOS - I'm not doing poly too well right now

[Evie]

I'm afraid. Terribly afraid.

I'm in NZ. He's in the UK. She's in the US.

A few weeks ago an emotionally close friend (Lance) told me he'd met someone and she (Jen) was coming to visit him just after Easter for a couple of weeks. That they were in a relationship now. It was slightly out of the blue that it was that serious, but not entirely unexpected thanks to shared social media. They met (online) about 4 months ago.

Thing is, last year we'd talked about Lance visiting me at Easter. The reason this didn't happen was the longevity of his dog, who has now been on his last legs for about 6 months... (enough so that the usual dogsitter won't take him anymore). So, and with absolutely no wish to shorten dear Sparky's life, we didn't make plans/book tickets/do anything other than him starting a savings account for travel.

I'm sure you can all deduce where that travel fund will be spent now.

Lance hasn't told Jen about me ("yet"). So I'm now demoted and secret. And I'm not doing ok with that.

Right now Lance is hurting because he's just put Jen back on the plane home, and he's not entirely sure when he'll be able to visit, because of Sparky.

And I'm hurting, because originally he would have been booking a ticket to visit me, not Jen.

(And no, NZ is not particularly 'on the way' to the US, and even if it was, I really, really don't want to be a stepping stone, because he'd be counting the days until he's on his way to her.)

And Jen's likely hurting, because she's had to go home and things are going to be up in the air for them for a while.

And besides their current separation and pain, I'm actually happy for them (after all, I can't be what she can, and I'd love him to find his happy ever after). I'd not asked him for a relationship per se because I knew that I couldn't be a nesting partner, and I didn't want to interfere with his chances of finding one. But I'm being a terrible friend because my feelings keep spilling into our conversations and I end up crying on him when he needs comfort from me.

He has assured me (a couple of times by now) that our friendship will stay intact, that he's not going anywhere. Thing is, not that long ago he was coming towards me.

And that's enough of a difference that I'm falling apart.

arohanui
Evie

P.S. Adam (my husband) is being wonderful, giving lots of cuddles and support, and letting me process in my own time.

 

[Deenz]

Hi Evie, I’m sorry you’re hurting. It sounds like being ‘secret’ is particularly hard for you ( understandably). I don’t have any advice but I’m also in NZ and have a similar situation with S , and happy to chat .

Kia kaha
Deenz

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm very sorry you are struggling.

I'm not sure if you just want comforting words or if you also want ideas for how to move forward.

I'm gonna guess and if I guess wrong I apologize. You can only read the bits that apply right now.

COMFORT

I hope you feel a bit better for airing out some. I am glad you have your spouse for support/cuddles. Eventually you may want to do some soul searching and figure out how to proceed. For now you could just do your basic self care and normal routines-- eat, sleep, take walks, shower, etc. Go more slowly, take the time you need to process. It doesn't have to be solved instantly or right this minute.

IDEAS FOR LATER

I mean this kindly, ok? Because I know you are hurting a lot. I'm not trying to add to your burdens. But I think you might be the one hurting yourself some here. I could be wrong but you seem kind of passive and like you are thinking odd things and those two behaviors leads to you feeling yucky.

GF ENVY THOUGHTS

As far as I understand from the post? You are not his poly GF. You did not want ask him to start a poly relationship. As far as he knows, you guys are friends. As far as he knows? He's a single dude who can date however he wants without condering how you feel about that. Because you are not a concurrent dating partner he has to consider in the dating area of his life.

It sounds like you struggle with envy because you want that LDR GF thing for yourself that Jane is now developing with him. But you were not willing to have a conversation with him about dating him that way.

So... how's he supposed to know how you feel? Are you expecting mind reader-ing? Then upset he doesn't do it?

If your expectations around this are not reasonable or rational and they are hurting you? You may have to change your thinking and change your expectations. Either become more willing to talk to him about poly dating and maybe becoming his LDR poly gf.

Or become willing to stop fueling your crush feelings. Actively work to let them go. So you can be friend-friends.

Being his “friend secretly hoping to be his GF but never talking about it” fuzzy thing is hurting you. You may have to let that go in order to feel better. Become his friend-friend or ask to change to poly GF. But stop being this “neither here nor there” thing. Firm things up and get clear with him so you can start to feel better.

Lance hasn't told Jen about me ("yet"). So I'm now demoted and secret. And I'm not doing ok with that.

He's told you that you are important or valuable to him as a friend. Could believe him.

How can you be demoted as his GF if you haven't been "hired" for that job? It sounds like he's basically single.You are his friend. He doesn't have to list all the friends he has when first dating and getting to know new people.

If you want him to consider you like a poly GF? You may have to actually start talking to him about these things rather than NOT talking yet taking it personally that he doesn't magically know what's going on with you.

TRIP ENVY

As far as I understand, you guys talked about him coming to NZ last year. No actual tickets were purchased or firm plans made. Then the dog got poorly. He cannot leave the UK right now with a dying dog.

Jen was willing to go to the UK so they could visit. That trip was easier to fit in right now because he doesn't have to leave the UK for it to happen.

I am not hearing in your post where you talked to him about updating the previous trip plans with you accommodating the unforseen dog needs. You seem to get upset that things don't work out how you want... without actually talking to him about how to make them come about.

Your thinking behavior about this trip may have to change. Either become ok waiting til he is free of dog duties so he is actually able come to NZ. You accept that it won't be at Easter 2018 because the dog is not dead yet.

Or change your thinking behavior and consider you going to him instead in the UK so he doesn't have to leave the dying dog.

Could stop taking Jen's trip personally as some sort of slight or demoting thing against you. She was willing to accommodate his dog problems so they could manage their visit and still make it happen.

You could do same.

It's not anyone's fault he's got dying dog problems right now.

SELF BULLYING THOUGHTS

But I'm being a terrible friend because my feelings keep spilling into our conversations and I end up crying on him when he needs comfort from me.

Why are you heaping this kind of self-bullying down talk on yourself? If all it does is make you feel even more bad?

I think you could have to review your thinking behavior on “friendship.”

Do you not expect reciprocity or mutuality – like friends take turns being there for each other?

If you have an expectation of yourself that you have to be "willing and able" for anything of his at ALL times no matter what? While ignoring your own stuff?

If that is your definition of what makes you a “good” friend? It's just not a reasonable or realistic expectations of yourself. The personal boundaries there not healthy sounding to me if they lead to self neglect.

Being a "good friend" doesn't mean being available to him every minute of the day. You have to attend to your own self care too. In fact, you could attend to that FIRST. Then gift your help to others with their reasonable and rational requests.

Has he ASKED for you to comfort him? If not, you don't have to offer to do any right now if you don't have the bandwidth. It's ok to take care of you first. That's not being a bad friend to him. That is not doing self-neglect to you.

If he HAS asked you for comfort? You can check your internal resources first before replying. See if you are actually (willing AND able) before you answer.

If you cannot right now, because you have your own stuff to process first? Not actually able? Don't have the extra energy? You can say "I'm sorry. I feel bad for you, but I don't have the ability right now to comfort extensively. I have my own things going on that I need to process first. I can check back later when I am more able if you like."

Because at this time? You are don't sound like you have the bandwidth. It is ok to take the time you need to heal FIRST. Self care is a necessary thing. It is not an optional thing.

He has assured me (a couple of times by now) that our friendship will stay intact, that he's not going anywhere. Thing is, not that long ago he was coming towards me.

I get being disappointed an Easter visit to NZ isn't going to happen because of the dying dog. But I do not see where he's unwilling to come visit you in NZ eventually. It's not his fault the dog started having unforseen problems and he cannot get a special needs dog sitter.If you want to see him sooner than that, you can talk about you coming to him in the UK.

Your emotional boundaries around this relationship seem like they have gotten really fuzzy. To me it sounds like you are jumping the gun a bit -- wanting to be "his poly GF" without actually having that conversation with him. Then feeling sad he treats you like "friend" rather than "poly GF” when what you are IS friend to him right now. Maybe taking this NZ trip postponement personally like you are of no value to him when it's that he can't leave the dog.

If being silent about all this is causing you upset? Start speaking up. Ask to change to being his poly GF and have a proper dating relationship if he's up for that. Ask to change the trip plans. If you prefer to let the crush go and not develop it? That's fine too.

But I encourage your to sort out all the fuzzy boundaries one way or another. I don't think going along "fuzzy" like that is helping you feel good.

I think going like that without a clear understanding of what you are to each other and what behaviors are expected is actually making thing hard and makes you feel bad.

So become more resolute and firm stuff up one way or the other. Get the clarity you need.

Either be his friend-friend or ask to change to be his poly GF. So that can be firm.

Either reorganize the trip to go see him in the UK, or just cancel it for now and plan to talk about a new trip thing when the dog is actually dead. So that can be firm.

See if you feel better like that – with more clarity and things less “fuzzy” or "up in the air."

Trying to be this odd “neither really this nor that” thing sounds like it is taking its toll on you.

Both on the relationship front and on the trip front.

Galagirl

 

[Evie]

Thanks both.

Obviously I didn't cover off all the nuances in my original post, it was more about getting something down on paper so I could start to move forward.

He's very aware of my feelings. We're definitely more than friends-friends. We both know and acknowledge it. We simply haven't sought to make it public on the shared website. We aren't precise in the language for what we are, mostly because we haven't needed to be. We just are.

And I really can't go to the UK due to personal financial constraints. Insurmountable ones. And we had talked about updating his travel plans... It was quite simple. Dog dies, then he buys ticket here.

Now, when Sparky dies, he will buy a ticket to visit Jen instead. So, I'm not being demoted on the GF front, but on the travel front. His resources that he was building to come here will be redirected to traveling to Jen. And fair enough too, this is a serious shot at a nesting partner for him. I support his new relationship. I'm just grieving what I am losing... which is meeting him in person, showing him around my beautiful country, and experiencing the intimacy that comes with being in person.

Yes, he asked for comfort. He texted me as soon as he put her on the plane because he was upset. I was able to help then, but I wasn't so good at helping the next morning (my morning). I said sorry for being upset because I know it was a time when he was needing me to comfort him. He said he was just thinking that. We're blunt enough with each other. There's also never been an expectation of being there for each other at any time. The time difference established that. Although of course a text message can be left at any time and picked up and responded to when possible.

He's told me that I'm important and valuable to him as what we are. Yes, that occupies a space between just friends and gf/bf. It's a legit space. And I believe him. And that space is not directly threatened at this time. Possibly because Jen doesn't know I hold it... Unfortunately I'm imagining the worst since I see no indication on her profile that she is poly or even poly friendly. Many women don't cope with partners having women friends of any space. I've lost men friends before because of their new or escalating partners so I'm afraid of it happening all over again. But right now with Lance and Jen it's a fear of the unknown. Only time will tell. I'm kinda doing OK with that one because it could come to nothing. She might be absolutely fine with our continued weekly-ish Skype calls...

What I have lost for the foreseeable future is the chance to be in person with him. That's what I'm grieving. And because of that grieving I'm not being so good at supporting him right when he needs it most, this morning. And I feel the weight of that.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more details. That helps paint more of a picture.

He's told me that I'm important and valuable to him as what we are.

Believe him that you are important then.

What I have lost for the foreseeable future is the chance to be in person with him. That's what I'm grieving.

Distance and financial limitations can put a strain on what LDR relationships can offer. Things we have today like Skype help bridge the distance, but it's not the same as being together in person. So I can understand grieving the loss of the trip and the opportunity.

And because of that grieving I'm not being so good at supporting him right when he needs it most, this morning. And I feel the weight of that.

That's ok to feel too. Sometimes he may have a thing and you might have a thing at the same time and so cannot comfort each other esp. great. I don't think that's anyone's fault though.

I could be wrong but to me it is one thing to regret that you are not able to comfort because you have your own grief to be doing. And it is another thing to feel guilty about it like it is somehow your fault. I can't quite tell which one you are expressing over internet typing. There's no body language or tone of voice to give clues.

Either way.... I'm sorry you are having a hard time right now.

I do hope getting some stuff out does help you move forward.

Galagirl

 

[lunabunny]

Evie, I feel for you. My current poly situation actually started off a LOT like what you describe here (i.e. I am in Australia... HE is in the US... as is SHE.) But before I go into all that... I'm a little confused about the status of your seemingly ill-defined friendship/relationship with your "close friend", Lance.

Now, not wishing to define a relationship may not be a problem for some people - after all many people are Relationship Anarchists and some simply don't see a value in putting a label on such things - however, it seems to be the source of at least some of the pain and confusion in THIS particular situation. So I'm wondering if you can clear a couple of things up for me, Evie:

- Do you consider yourself polyamorous (regardless of your current situation with your husband, Lance and Jen)?

- Your husband obviously knows about and understands your distress over Lance/Jen as he's been comforting you... so can I assume he is either polyamorous himself and/or agrees with and understands the lifestyle?

- You variously classify Lance as a "close friend" and as "more than friend-friends" - and you appear to at least have very strong feelings for him that fall somewhere between infatuation and deep love. How would you describe your feelings for him?

- Have you and Lance been open and honest about YOUR feelings for him? (You seem to indicate that brutal honesty is the name of the game for you guys.) And if so, has HE likewise elaborated on how HE feels about YOU? (Do the two mesh? i.e. You both feel similarly strongly about each other.)

- Besides the dog's ill health --- (and I must admit, upon first reading, I wasn't sure if Lance may have been using this as a convenient "excuse" not to meet with you. However since Jen has obviously been there, it must be all above board) --- I am assuming the main reason you feel you can't offer Lance what he needs, physically, if not emotionally, is because you're already permanently committed to someone else on the other side of the world, and therefore it'd be impossible to ever build anything long-term with your "friend". Financial constraints are a secondary reason. Do I have this right?

- You say Lance hasn't told Jen about you "yet". Well, WHEN is he going to? Does he ever plan to, and how will you know? (I gather from this reticence that Jen is NOT okay with polyamory or he fears she won't be.)

********

It sure does appear to be a difficult situation, though there are not many completely impossible situations if one really wants something badly enough, and is committed to trying to achieve it. (Or, I should say, if two or more people agree they want the same thing and work to achieve it.)

*********

In my particular situation, I would probably be "Jen". I met my male partner Jester online and we were platonic friends for about a year before falling for each other romantically. At the time (unbeknownst to me), he had a Friends With Benefits things going on with a mutual female friend, Boho. Those two had love for each other, but while Boho was quite mad about Jester, he felt more like they had (and have) a deep and abiding friendship.

Despite Boho's strong feelings, she was married and made it quite clear she was not about to leave her family and fairly affluent lifestyle for someone who, quite frankly, has always lived on the edges of society. That was her choice. One which left Jester feeling like he was being kept on some shelf.

At the time Boho paid lip service to being happy if he was to "find someone local who could love him and take care of him like she couldn't", but when he DID actually fall for me, and I chose to give him all she couldn't (despite being on the other side of the world myself), she was far from happy about it. She and I had been fairly close friends on social media, but at this point she blocked me and we didn't speak for months. Ironically, I am now in a "V" with both, but that's another, loooong story which you can read about on my blog, The Accidental Polyamorist, if you're interested.

*********

Evie, my point here is... there are ways around MOST situations IF you want something enough. It may take ingenuity, compromise, and willingness on the parts of ALL parties to make it happen however - and in this case, all parties includes not just you and Lance, but also Jen and your own husband.

There are various financial work-arounds and off-beat vacation plans whereby you and Lance could meet somewhere half-way between your countries... or "stagger" a trip that incorporates all three of you somehow.

If any one person involved is NOT willing to expend some in-depth thinking time and creativity to make such a thing happen within a year or two, it might be a sign that the feelings between you are not deep or committed ENOUGH to warrant the time, energy and financial outlay it'd involve.

**********

Of course, any such plans would also hinge on Lance being honest with his girlfriend Jen about his relationship with YOU - however you guys choose to define it. The fact that they've been together four months and she has even spent time visiting his country, yet he HASN'T told her about you sounds kinda shady to me.

It probably means either one of two things: he feels guilty/uncomfortable about the part you play in his life and is therefore trying to keep you on the "downlow" while he figures out how to broach the subject to Jen... OR because you've made it clear you're not willing to be his girlfriend and can't visit or move to be with him physically, he doesn't figure he needs to go there. In other words, he doesn't consider your role in his life as something he has to announce to others, or seek permission for.

Back to my own situation for a moment... this is where Jester/me/Boho were at soon after he and I began our relationship and started planning ways to be together permanently. Jester delayed telling Boho for a month or two; claiming he had to find the "right time" and the right words. Even though he swore they'd agreed to a casual, FWB type relationship, I could tell he KNEW she'd be devastated.

Sometimes people don't speak their truth honestly and it causes all kinds of confusion and pain. Telling someone you're in love with that you're okay, even happy, if they see other people when you're really NOT okay with it at all(!) might seem like kind and loving behaviour - but it is not HONEST behaviour. Likewise, letting someone believe you have stronger feelings for them than you actually do, because you're too afraid to admit the truth, is not "kind", it is stringing someone along. Not saying either you or Lance are doing these exact things, or for these reasons... but sometimes circumstances simply ARE too difficult, or people's needs don't match... and it is better to know when to let someone else go.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Evie,

It sounds like you are looking at a situation where Jen may take your place in Lance's life. You already have a husband, so you can't be a nesting partner to Lance, and Lance wants a nesting partner, that is his eventual goal. I think in a larger sense, you're already mourning Lance's departure from your life, even though it's not happening yet. Lance being unwilling/unable to visit you in New Zealand, Lance not telling Jen about you, and you being unable to give Lance the comfort he needs, are just stepping stones along the way to the larger loss, the loss of Lance himself. With Jen probably not being poly-friendly, Lance can only have Jen as a nesting partner if he jettisons his other relationships (i.e. the one with you) first. So, on a larger level, you are mourning the eventual loss of your relationship with Lance.

Kübler-Ross identified five stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. You may be experiencing more than one of these at the same time. It's part of the process, don't be too hard on yourself, you have to experience these stages one way or another. Hopefully this forum is helpful to you in the way of offering you comfort and support.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Evie]

Hi Lunabunny

Do you consider yourself polyamorous (regardless of your current situation with your husband, Lance and Jen)?

Yes, I do. Although outside of my marriage I'm more a relationship anarchist. Ergo I have no problem existing in a space between friend and gf. I've occupied that a lot in my life. It doesn't need a label but often "intimate, loving friend with benefits" helps describe it to people who don't live it themselves. I have surrendered my space in the past with other people as they've found or escalated with non-poly partners, and been both thanked and chastised for it, so there is clearly no one right way to do things. With Lance, I am going to hold my space as he's assured me he'll hold it too. Just, without the meeting face to face bit for now.

Your husband obviously knows about and understands your distress over Lance/Jen as he's been comforting you... so can I assume he is either polyamorous himself and/or agrees with and understands the lifestyle?

Yep, we might be having drinks with his GF at the local poly munch tonight.

You variously classify Lance as a "close friend" and as "more than friend-friends" - and you appear to at least have very strong feelings for him that fall somewhere between infatuation and deep love. How would you describe your feelings for him?

Oh, I love him alright. Or it wouldn't be this bloody painful! In many ways we are also in an NRE type space as our feeling have grown over the last 6 months or so, too.

Have you and Lance been open and honest about YOUR feelings for him? (You seem to indicate that brutal honesty is the name of the game for you guys.) And if so, has HE likewise elaborated on how HE feels about YOU? (Do the two mesh? i.e. You both feel similarly strongly about each other.)

No, we haven't used all the feeling words. On my part, it was because of a desire to be able to look him in the eye for real, not shifting between looking at a camera and a screen. But we've developed personal, code style work arounds that (despite any argument non-participants might have) clearly mean there is a depth of love beyond platonic friendship.

Besides the dog's ill health --- (and I must admit, upon first reading, I wasn't sure if Lance may have been using this as a convenient "excuse" not to meet with you. However since Jen has obviously been there, it must be all above board) --- I am assuming the main reason you feel you can't offer Lance what he needs, physically, if not emotionally, is because you're already permanently committed to someone else on the other side of the world, and therefore it'd be impossible to ever build anything long-term with your "friend". Financial constraints are a secondary reason. Do I have this right?

Yeah. The dog's certainly not an excuse. I have no doubt that sans dog and sans Jen he'd be here in a heartbeat. But yes, you nailed it with the permanent commitment to my husband in this very small, far away place meaning that I cannot offer myself to him as a nesting partner. I can be a long term loving friend with non-physical intimacy. Please don't mistake this for "camming" - that's not either of our styles. But there has certainly been discussion of intimate scenes we would like to enact, were going to enact, when we shared a physical space. But I can't be a primary/nesting partner. I never expected to be, nor did he. The conversation has been about a visit long enough to see lots of things and do lots of things.

And just because someone is bound to ask, Adam and I are hierarchical in that we are not seeking another nesting partner to live with us. And I'm not in a position to support, even partially, two households, nor am likely to be on even my potential salary. And Adam doesn't work.

You say Lance hasn't told Jen about you "yet". Well, WHEN is he going to? Does he ever plan to, and how will you know? (I gather from this reticence that Jen is NOT okay with polyamory or he fears she won't be.)

Yeah, this is a tough one for me. I don't know when. I don't think he's decided for himself when. We'll have that chat when I'm not quite so likely to burst into tears again (I'm already million times better today than yesterday). He has said that he will absolutely not relinquish our friendship. He has said she'll be ok. So I am left wondering why the delay.

********

It sure does appear to be a difficult situation, though there are not many completely impossible situations if one really wants something badly enough, and is committed to trying to achieve it. (Or, I should say, if two or more people agree they want the same thing and work to achieve it.)

I'm working on simply adjusting my timeline expectations. He won't visit when Sparky dies, but it doesn't mean he won't visit ever. And one day I might have the means to save enough to travel myself. Nothing is impossible. And their relationship may yet fall over. My last extramarital one did, and Lance and I were firm friends before and after that.

*********

Ironically, I am now in a "V" with both, but that's another, loooong story which you can read about on my blog, The Accidental Polyamorist, if you're interested.

I'm glad you got to that point! I would like Jen to be able to say hi on a thread or perhaps have a joke about something if she's got a similar sense of humour. But I don't have any interest in being involved in their relationship. I'm not involved in Adam's relationship with his GF, although I do have my own cordial friendship with her. Her other metamour is much more involved. Much. Not my jam, but I recognise it works for some.

*********

As for future travel, I hope plans will evolve. Right now it's just too soon. Let's face it, we come on here for help when things are raw, not when they've been resolved. Dealing with the rawness has been tough, but it's already on the mend and a new course can be plotted given time.

**********

Of course, any such plans would also hinge on Lance being honest with his girlfriend Jen about his relationship with YOU - however you guys choose to define it. The fact that they've been together four months and she has even spent time visiting his country, yet he HASN'T told her about you sounds kinda shady to me.

It probably means either one of two things: he feels guilty/uncomfortable about the part you play in his life and is therefore trying to keep you on the "downlow" while he figures out how to broach the subject to Jen... OR because you've made it clear you're not willing to be his girlfriend and can't visit or move to be with him physically, he doesn't figure he needs to go there. In other words, he doesn't consider your role in his life as something he has to announce to others, or seek permission for.

Yep, all this has been part of the thought process. I was a little surprised when I asked outright if she knew about me and he said no. I actually thought he would have told her first, before he told me about her since I had a fairly obvious presence on the shared social media, not in a relationship link, but liking and commenting on his posts.

There is often a natural progression to many of my relationships, and I have a few that have naturally tapered off to sporadic contact (anyone remember UniverseFan?) and there's all likelihood that eventually Lance and I will, too. But neither of us are ready for that right now, so we'll keep doing our thing, letting it evolve, making new plans, or not, as the case may be, and sharing what we can of our lives until such time as we don't feel the need to share quite so much. For now, we're both adjusting to how his growing relationship with Jen impacts us. And they're also working through managing their own distance barriers. They do have higher expectations of where they'll get to than L and I do. And that's very cool for them. I hope they get the chance to have that relationship to the fullest extent possible. I also hope that Lance and I get to have what we'd previously talked about, but I can't be quite as invested in that hope now as their plans come first. I'll live.

Evie

 

[Evie]

Hey Kevin

So, on a larger level, you are mourning the eventual loss of your relationship with Lance.

Oh yeah. I'm definitely feeling grief. I have lost the anticipated visit. I'm still afraid I will lose the closeness we do have because of their escalation. Time will tell. I'm working on managing those fears so I don't self sabotage. The story isn't over yet

 

[kdt26417]

It sounds hopeful that you will get through it okay. It's even possible Lance will still come out to visit, but we'll call that a bonus.

 

[starlight1]

First of all!

Hey Evie! So good to hear from you!!! (hug)

But ugh,sorry that it's under such circumstances. LDR's are super tough but much worse when you feel displaced, or priorities change and that person is making long term plans with someone else before you. : ( Priority shuffling sucks.

And definitely with the financial situation it is, it's not possible to be there for him while dog is ill. This is just sucky all around.

I hope that he is eventually still able to meet up with you, and despite the new lady, you're able to get your needs met, perhaps you can look for a more secondary local and make him tertiary as you practice hierarchy? I know feeling don't work like that, but for practical reasons...

Either way I send warm wishes and really hope that things turn around in that situation.

Also I'm glad you're pursuing education (being a teacher awesome!) and I am glad things are generally going well with hubs too. You're lucky to have each other <3

Star

 

[Ravenscroft]

For me, the "poly" locks up right here --

Lance hasn't told Jen about me ("yet").

 

[Evie]

hey Starlight and Ravenscroft LTNS alright, bit it's nice to be back regardless of circumstances. I've been devouring people's blogs trying to catch up on what's going on with familiar names.

And yeah Ravenscroft, I have wondered if it's not me who's not doing the poly so well. He's not being honest with her despite that it shouldn't be such a big deal. My nearest and dearest know about him (the ones who know we're poly) so why am I such a big damned secret?

Today he posted a gushy writing about how he was empty until now. What am I, fucking chopped liver? I unfollowed him so I can choose when to read his smitten hyperbole. Or not.

Maybe he is so high on NRE it's just better to leave him to it for a while.

(Pssst, Kevin, onto the anger phase of grief )

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"Pssst, Kevin, onto the anger phase of grief "

Right?

Re:

"Maybe he is so high on NRE it's just better to leave him to it for a while."

It probably is NRE. Technically he could handle it better, but it would take a strong/conscious effort.

 

[Seinneann]

So Lance met Jen *online* four months ago, she's been over to the UK to see him for one trip and now he thinks they are heading towards nesting?

That in and of itself doesn't seem like very clear thinking to me.

 

[lunabunny]

Okay, Evie, I'm going to put some possibilities to you pretty bluntly now - but please know, I don't mean to make assumptions or come off as overly negative about your relationship with Lance.

This is all just food for thought and I admit I could be way off base here.

Ergo I have no problem existing in a space between friend and gf.
It doesn't need a label but often "intimate, loving friend with benefits" helps describe it to people who don't live it themselves.

Have you and Lance been open and honest about YOUR feelings for him? And if so, has HE likewise elaborated on how HE feels about YOU? (Do the two mesh? i.e. You both feel similarly strongly about each other.)

Oh, I love him alright. Or it wouldn't be this bloody painful!

No, we haven't used all the feeling words. On my part, it was because of a desire to be able to look him in the eye for real, not shifting between looking at a camera and a screen. But we've developed personal, code style work arounds that (despite any argument non-participants might have) clearly mean there is a depth of love beyond platonic friendship.

The first description sounds like something my partners could have written about each other.

As you surely realise, Evie, and have experienced yourself, there are many people who can feel a deep sense of friendship/camaraderie, sexual attraction and even love towards a particular person/partner, without necessarily being "IN" love with that person. This attitude is not relegated only to RAs, polyamorists or people in the kink community, but tends to be the basis upon which many FWB and on-going, casual partnerships hinge.

Although you and Lance do not have an in-person, physical relationship, this seems to be where you guys are "at", emotionally right now. However, I get the impression YOUR feelings for him skew more towards the "romantic"/in love side of the equation than HIS (currently) do for you. (Not saying it was always like this, or won't ever change.)

As I said in my last response, and you reiterated, "defining" a relationship is not always necessary. Although misunderstandings can creep in, when one or both people involved deliberately avoid using those "feeling words" as you call them, to describe or define how they perceive a.) the other person at an emotional level, and b.) expectations relating to the future of the relationship.

From personal experience, I can tell you that - when my two partners used to be FWBs there was some miscommunication relating to these issues... with Boho assuming that Jester's regular declarations of affection and nightly phonecalls, in addition to their sexual relationship, meant that he was "in" love with her, as she was with him. On Jester's part, he assumed that Boho's reluctance to leave her husband or be open about their relationship meant she was cool with a casual fling and didn't have high expectations on the emotional front. They were both wrong.

I can be a long term loving friend with non-physical intimacy. Please don't mistake this for "camming" - that's not either of our styles. But there has certainly been discussion of intimate scenes we would like to enact, were going to enact, when we shared a physical space. But I can't be a primary/nesting partner. I never expected to be, nor did he. The conversation has been about a visit long enough to see lots of things and do lots of things.

Firstly, I have to say, I wouldn't judge you for "camming" or the like even if it WERE your style. Believe me, in my mostly online/LDRs, pretty much every permutation of cyber-sex and IRL sex has been covered over the years. After all, we have to work within the limitations of our circumstances.

You say Lance hasn't told Jen about you "yet". Well, WHEN is he going to? Does he ever plan to, and how will you know? (I gather from this reticence that Jen is NOT okay with polyamory or he fears she won't be.)

Yeah, this is a tough one for me. I don't know when. I don't think he's decided for himself when.
He has said that he will absolutely not relinquish our friendship. He has said she'll be ok... So I am left wondering why the delay.

I was a little surprised when I asked outright if she knew about me and he said no. I actually thought he would have told her first, before he told me about her

See, and this is another area where miscommunication can creep and derail things pretty quickly.

Sure, it's scary to be honest about this stuff - especially when you're not sure how the other person is going to react to what is still viewed as a pretty unconventional lifestyle. (i.e. If Jen isn't "poly", Lance is surely frightened of losing her when she finds out about your role in his life. Meanwhile, he obviously doesn't want to lose YOU either!)

But even worse is living inauthentically, and/or being lied to by a loved one. When Jester and I started out, he didn't feel he needed to tell me about him/Boho's FWB deal because a.) it was casual (in HIS eyes), and b.) she was technically still married and therefore they had some kind of secrecy pact/agreement. Result was, lying to me by omission - which did NOT play out well at all when I worked out the truth - in addition to not telling Boho the truth about his developing relationship with me, while still sleeping with her.

Casual sex/FWB/poly/RA is all well and good - but for it to work EVERYONE has to be on the same page... have consented... and be fully informed.

In your case with Lance and Jen, it doesn't seem as though this is happening right now, and that would concern me from a couple of angles.

They do have higher expectations of where they'll get to than L and I do. And that's very cool for them. I hope they get the chance to have that relationship to the fullest extent possible. I also hope that Lance and I get to have what we'd previously talked about, but I can't be quite as invested in that hope now as their plans come first. I'll live. [/COLOR]

I have surrendered my space in the past with other people as they've found or escalated with non-poly partners... With Lance, I am going to hold my space as he's assured me he'll hold it too.

He's not being honest with her... so why am I such a big damned secret?

Evie, you seem like a very loving and generous person. You're obviously aware of the subtleties of these relationship dynamics and therefore I can't call you naïve... I just hope your "giving" quality isn't being taken advantage of here. Not necessarily maliciously or with ill intent, but just through Lance's fear/reticence, even cowardice, in the face of having to make the choice to be honest; knowing he could potentially lose Jen (or you).

Today he posted a gushy writing about how he was empty until now. What am I, fucking chopped liver? I unfollowed him so I can choose when to read his smitten hyperbole. Or not.

Maybe he is so high on NRE it's just better to leave him to it for a while.

(Pssst, Kevin, onto the anger phase of grief )

It is true that people can be very dense when in the throes of NRE - and can therefore inadvertently say too much about the "new shiny" and hurt their other partners. Or conversely, distance themselves from established partners as they redirect all their attention and energies (and in your case, finances) towards the new person - with the same result.

I think this is something you and Lance need to have a serious conversation about, and YOU need to set some boundaries around... or else you may wind up being taken for granted, big time.

Sure, you're not his primary and are "just" LD right now - however, you two DID have pre-existing travel plans, the money for which is now being redirected toward his plans to visit Jen in the USA. That is not fair. Certainly, you can't force him to visit you, and he is obviously prioritising the person he feels will be able to meet his future needs for a nesting partner. However, it almost sounds like he's cutting you out of the loop altogether... WITHOUT wanting to let you go, at the same time. In other words, he wants to have his cake and eat it too. This isn't fair on you. I'd advise you to find out where you stand.

Ironically, I am now in a "V" with both, but that's another, loooong story which you can read about on my blog, The Accidental Polyamorist, if you're interested.

I'm glad you got to that point! I would like Jen to be able to say hi on a thread or perhaps have a joke about something if she's got a similar sense of humour. But I don't have any interest in being involved in their relationship. Not my jam, but I recognise it works for some.

Thank you. Just one little clarification here: I am not involved in my partners' relationship. They "broke up" when Jester and I got together, and Boho and I later started a relationship of our own, more or less independently. Meaning that I'm the hinge of the V, and those two really aren't involved any longer.

So basically, no, I wasn't suggesting that you and Jen develop anything intimate with each other at all. However, IF you plan to remain in Lance's life as "more than just friends" and he wants to keep your relationship afloat also, I think it's vitally important that he address this with Jen ASAP - or else it's NOT polyamory, as Ravenscroft and others have pointed out.

 

[Evie]

Rhetorical question: where does loving someone become being "in" love with them? Where does romance start?

I think we've clearly established I like the fuzzy spaces, where things are undefined and open to movement and evolution. Sure, there are moments, days, where I feel miserable because that change is something I initially perceive as negative and I feel the pain of fear of loss... but I cry and sometimes cry out when I need help, and then I adapt to that change and know that what will be will be.

Sis says she envies my ability to let people in, as she has massive walls that she protects fiercely. It causes her pain, too. A different choice of pain to mine, but a level she's chosen at this time. Just as I've chosen to love deeply even if that love isn't perfectly matched. That's OK, it was never meant to be a transaction. Nor were Lance and I going to be regular visitors or "in a relationship" in the traditional sense.

I've been thinking about what a relationship actually is. Any relationship. I think I can safely say that it includes a collection of shared habits, traditions, rituals. These manifest in many types of relationships. My bff and I have our own, Adam and I have ours, and Lance and I have different ones again. I think that one of the exciting parts of NRE is developing these. Maybe "keeping a relationship alive" is to continually evolve these rather than let one set become what dictates interactions.

So, platonic to romantic... I've had guys love me who I don't love in return. I've loved guys who don't love me. I've had shared love. I can generally spot the difference. I don't think we can measure or quantify or even fully describe how we love someone, and to expect that to be perfectly matched when it's undefined, is just asking for trouble.

I came here sad that I was going to miss out on meeting Lance in person for the foreseeable future, and not thrilled that my existence was not yet known to his new GF. I get questions about the validity and value of my position in his life. I can see how readers make that connection. Clearly there's a Socratic method being employed. It's a powerful technique, obviously, still being in existence today, although probably evolved somewhat into its current form.

I don't think I need to know everything right now. And that even if I did, I suspect it would change pretty soon anyway. Life tends to do that.

Kia kaha
Evie

 

[endusal]

Kia ora Evie! I don't think I could add something more substantial than what has already been covered by everyone else.

I find the thoughts outlined in your last post insightful and beautiful. I think that might be the best aspect of polyamory: opening ourselves to experience, connecting with people, doing so thoughtfully and consciously.

I'm sure that with this attitude, however things turn out with Lance, you'll come out of it with your life further enriched.

P.S. I visited NZ earlier this year and absolutely fell in love with the country. Lance is missing out, big time.

 

[Ravenscroft]

For me, living with relationships is sorta like being out on the ocean in a sailboat. There's nothing wrong with enjoying skipping from port to port, or being becalmed out of sight of land, or seeing where the winds & tide take me, or sailing in circles, or whatever.

Problems arise when I expect a given outcome for which I have chosen the wrong path. If there is something I wish to receive or accomplish, then giving my life over to randomness or inaction is a great path to failure. If my intent is to reach a particular destination (temporarily or permanently), then it's up to me to chart a course & watch the compass, & make corrections on the way to maintain in the right general direction.

And "trusting the Universe" stuff is superstition; expecting that Romance (or Fate, or God) is going to grant me a miracle -- just because I expect a miracle -- is highly unlikely to succeed. It's poor gambling: just because I lucked out once (or know someone who did) doesn't mean I'm "on a roll" & somehow more likely to continue having wins more significant than the losses.

 

[Evie]

That's fine, Ravenscroft. You do you. I'll do me.