Struggling with open relationship

[RJO]

My partner and I have been together for 12 years, in a Dom (me) / sub (her) relationship but with lots of ups and downs along the way. We have played with other couples in the same room but now we are interested in finding one couple and developing a deeper connection with them. We agreed to play together first and then separately only when everyone is comfortable. The problem is that earlier this year, we both thought we were headed for a breakup and agreed to allow each other to talk to other people with the intention of playing separately (stupid idea, I know).

Over those months we were talking to others online but also finding that our relationship was improving in big way : better communication and more recently the return of our sex life (which is amazing when we are connected). I began to see that our relationship could not only be saved but transformed into the one we always dreamed of and about a month ago I told my partner that I am 100% committed to making us work. She was very happy to hear this and we have been enjoying this new energy.

The problem is that my partner has been making plans to start dating another couple and an old friend. All the sexting with the other couple in particular has given her new confidence and renewed sexual energy, allowing her to relax more and reconnect with me over the past month. She agrees that the best way for us to explore non-monogamy is by playing together until everyone feels comfortable playing separately. But at the same time, she doesn't want to drop all the plans that she has made or all the attention and positive energy she has been receiving from these other people (they have been sharing conversation, photos and porn on a daily basis). She says that we can start playing together with other people but is asking to also have these seperate relationships. I fear that this is not the time and that it will undermine our efforts to rebuild our foundation. Also, as parents, our time and energy is limited and I fear that her time and energy will be more focused on these other people than on us.

Last year, I was texting with other women without her consent so she is still hurting from this. She feels like she has always put our relationship before her own needs and is reluctant to do so again because she is concerned that my enthusiasm will fade and old habits will return. I have really changed my outlook and I know that this won't happen but I understand her fears and recognize that old wounds have to be addressed not ignored. I would like to say that I am comfortable with her playing with others separately but I am not (especially other men - I know some will see that as problematic but I simply don't have the same feelings of jealousy towards other women). Thinking about her having exclusive sexual relationships is driving me crazy, especially right now when I feel like we should focus on rebuilding our romantic and sexual connection rather than pursuing this with other people alone.

So I am trying to decide what is fair or reasonable. I should note that so far the other couple has expressed no interest in involving me and wants the unicorn relationship they originally discussed. I have said that I am comfortable with her playing with other women alone and with other men if I am involved (or if play is limited to some BDSM with minimal sexual contact in the case of her old friend, whom I know and trust). None of this is set in stone but that's where my limits are right now. I have no interest in seeing other people separately right now and really wish that we could just start fresh and follow the path that we have both agreed is healthiest for us. But I also see that she needs to feel empowered and that it will be bad for us if she feels like I am shutting her down or controlling her.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

I mean all this kindly, ok? I have some questions. Why did you make the agreement of

"We agreed to play together first and then separately only when everyone is comfortable."

What do you need to do to become comfortable then? What is the task list for your personal work?

Is this a kink only agreement for how you will kink with another couple or full swap? And you have other agreements for dating separately?

Could you please be willing to clarify what the purpose of this agreement is? What's it supposed do, prevent or assist?

To reassure you that she's not gonna break up after all? Something else?

The problem is that earlier this year, we both thought we were headed for a breakup and agreed to allow each other to talk to other people with the intention of playing separately (stupid idea, I know).

Over those months we were talking to others online but also finding that our relationship was improving in big way : better communication and more recently the return of our sex life (which is amazing when we are connected). I began to see that our relationship could not only be saved but transformed into the one we always dreamed of and about a month ago I told my partner that I am 100% committed to making us work. She was very happy to hear this and we have been enjoying this new energy.

That doesn't sound like problem to me.

It kinda sounds like the whole reason things got better is because you both were being less "joined at the hip" about it and pursuing people separately.

So if you were about to break up and are now trying to start over together like a second chance...

Why would you want to mess up what was working out? Why not continue to date and pursue separately? And maybe together if a potential couple seems right for pursuing together?

Are you just upset that HER potential couple doesn't want you? And she might pursue anyway because she'd been cultivating that relationship when she was on her way to breaking up with you?

And your second chance offer has some gaps? So she's willing to consider a second chance, but wants to see the full offer first?

I'm going to guess. I might guess wrong. Right now it sounds kinda like this conversation is happening with some parts out loud and some in the undercurrent. But not ALL THINGS SPOKEN OUT LOUD plain on the table.

Blue just to block it off. Pretend it's like a slow motion movie.

"Let's have a second chance! I've changed!"​

​

"Ok. I was gonna break up but the sex lately has been good and we've been communicating more... so good start. Maybe I'll consider second chance. But what is the plan? What are you doing about your jealousy management? Old habits? Reading a book? Getting a counselor? Dealing with the reasons we were on our way to a break up in the first place? "​

​

"Um... I changed my outlook. I want things better. I have no concrete pan. I feel safe with an agreement that we couple play together before separate play because then that other couple I feel threatened by goes away. I want you to dump this couple without me having to say that part out loud. And to kinda make up for that, I'll agree to minimal sex play with the friend even though I don't like that either. " ​

​

"Ok. Counterproposal. For FUTURE couples, I'll agree to play together before separate. But I was already negotiating here when we were on the way to breaking up. So for THIS couple, I want to pursue on my own. "​

​

"Um... I don't like it."​

And here is the fork in the road. You might feel scared because you see the writing on the wall. Like the movie will go.

"Yeah... so this is feeling like same old song, different day. Nothing much really changed. We just had the last bright spark before the candle goes out. Let's skip the second chance and just finish breaking up. Cuz then I can do what I want without having to deal with accommodating you. And I'm ok with that because I was on my way out the door anyway." ​

​

"Nooooooooo!!!" (paralysis, can't think of counterproposals.)​

If so? I get that it's hard to feel, and I see that you really want to try to work things out. I see her making suggestions. But I am not seeing you come up with any counterproposals to help "working out" actually happen.

Like

"Wait. How about this? You hold off playing with that other couple for a month. I'm not going to stop you from pursuing that couple because it started while we were breaking up. And you are willing for FUTURE couples to go together before separate. You are giving. I could give. ​

​

But can I have a small pause at least before you pursue more? Give me a month to finish reading this jealousy workbook, and setting up a counselor appt, and my other jealousy management supports? Because for things to be different this time I need some time to set all that up first before you see this couple and my jealousy alarm start ringing and I start wigging out that you are with a dude. I really want to try for it to be different this time and learn to get past this." ​

Then she might agree to hold off while you take some actionable steps. Then it's not just "all talk, no show."

Otherwise nothing will be different. You will ping on dude jealousy and behave however it was before.

And she might be tired of dealing in all that and might pick "Never mind. No second chance. Just break up. Then I can just date how I want without dealing with accommodating you. "

Is that where this is? Did you need helping with reasonable "alternate movie endings" so you can keep negotiating with her to find a way to make it work? More ideas?

Galagirl

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

It feels to me on reading this that you are more focused on the "play" aspect (sex and/or bdsm) which isn't necessarily polyamory - more sexually open/swinger-ish depending on agreements. She seems to be more focused on the fully open/polyamorous idea where she (and you) get to have more independence and individual connections instead of always having to be "a couple" in all activities.

You need to decide what you want. Breakup and move on? Stay together and fully open/polyamory of some sort? You COULD attempt stay together and go back to sexually open/swinger-ish activities, but if you try to force that and make her walk away from people she already cares about, you're asking for resentment sooner or later.

I agree with GG that it seems like your relationship improved BECAUSE you were both being more independent and pursuing happiness without only thinking about preserving "the couple" that you've been for years. Maybe it's time to redefine "the couple" into something that you both can thrive in instead of one or both of you being stifled by it.

Sounds complicated all around. Your feelings, her feelings, feelings of at least 2-3 other adults already involved in some way with your partner, stability for kids, kink, sex, love, lust, friendship, trust, support, jealousy... It's a lot of plates to balance. I wish you luck!

 

[kdt26417]

Hello RJO,

Ethical open/poly must be consensual, and your consent can only be given wholeheartedly, or not at all. As it stands, you do not consent to playing separately with men. You cannot consent to it. Not right now. You are not okay with it, that's how you feel and you can't pick and choose your emotions. It's not about whether you are "controlling" her, you don't have a choice about that. Your heart is not in it.

If your partner is going to be ethical, she must limit her contact with that other couple to platonic and non-sexual (or limit the sex to sexting), and she must limit her contact with the old friend to platonic and some non-sexual BDSM. In the meantime, she must play together with you with other people, unless/until you start to feel okay about playing separately. Then she can start playing separately with the other couple and the old friend.

Talk to her, and see that she understands. Per your earlier agreement, you do not -- you cannot -- consent to playing separately (except with women) at this time. You do not (yet) feel comfortable with that. Hopefully the two of you can work it out from there, and eventually arrive at a point where all involved feel comfortable and consent freely.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Evie]

I cannot endorse the "musts" that Kevin has written above about your partner's behaviour.

At the end of the day, you can really only control your own behaviour.

It reads in your OP that your partner has agreed to playing together first, but simply wants to retain those connections she has made. This is not an unfair thing, this is not a detraction from your dyad, in fact, by your own admission, it has been really positive for your dyad. Perhaps consider not trying to shut the barn door after the horse has bolted. Consider giving her the autonomy to manage those newer connections in the way she sees fit. There's no indication she's suddenly become a neglectful mother or partner, on the contrary, she's a better partner for you now than before.

As for the other couple wanting her to unicorn for them, they're absolutely no threat to you. They'll be doing the unicorn hunter thing of preserving their dyad at all costs.

And please work on that rather misogynistic view that playing solo with women is fine, but not with men. All you're doing is invalidating women's sexual expression.

 

[RJO]

Thank you very much for your thoughts. The original agreement was designed to open things up in a way that moves from playing together towards playing separately, ensuring that we both feel safe and secure along the way. I think that is a reasonable and healthy way to proceed and my partner agrees. But she doesn't want it to apply in this case because she started talking to them before I said clearly that I wanted to stay together and renegotiate our "laissez faire" approach. We are at the crossroads you described. I think she is wary of putting all her energy back into the relationship because she thinks I will "relapse". I am doing a lot of therapeutic work and I know that I have changed permanently.

I don't want to date separately because I have no interest in playing separately right now. I want to focus on rebuilding our relationship. And I would like to feel comfortable enough to let her go do what she likes because I think it would be good for her. But I feel so jealous and I can't imagine staying home to watch our son while she goes out to have intense BDSM play and sex with people that I have no connection to. Especially when we are just reigniting our sex life and digging back into BDSM after some dark years. And quite frankly, it makes me feel very sad to think about my partner fucking and subbing to another man at this moment. I will be fine with this when we are playing together and can imagine being cool with her playing separately in future.

I know that she will be energized by being allowed to see them and that will likely bring more positive energy to our relationship from her side. But I don't know how to make this happen without feeling crushed and stressed out. Us having exclusive relationships only made sense to me when I thought we might break up.

She doesn't to breakup and she wants to follow the path we agreed on but she also wants this extra relationship. I can ask her to pause but she is under pressure from them. And I"m not sure what would change in a month. I'm showing her every day that i am on a different page now and 100% committed to us. My proposal is that she could play alone with the woman in this couple or with the man and myself, once I meet them. And then reassess things after a while. I think I could be ok with letting her be just with them in time if we have all become friends. And I've said I'm ok with her doing some BDSM play with her male friend because I know he's super respectful.

But I don't know how I could possibly convince myself to accept their original plan of having an exclusive triad in which my partner is their submissive. I'm really trying to find a good solution here but eery time I think about that option, "fuck no!" is what comes to mind.

I'm sorry you struggle.

I mean all this kindly, ok? I have some questions. Why did you make the agreement of



What do you need to do to become comfortable then? What is the task list for your personal work?

Is this a kink only agreement for how you will kink with another couple or full swap? And you have other agreements for dating separately?

Could you please be willing to clarify what the purpose of this agreement is? What's it supposed do, prevent or assist?

To reassure you that she's not gonna break up after all? Something else?



That doesn't sound like problem to me.

It kinda sounds like the whole reason things got better is because you both were being less "joined at the hip" about it and pursuing people separately.

So if you were about to break up and are now trying to start over together like a second chance...

Why would you want to mess up what was working out? Why not continue to date and pursue separately? And maybe together if a potential couple seems right for pursuing together?

Are you just upset that HER potential couple doesn't want you? And she might pursue anyway because she'd been cultivating that relationship when she was on her way to breaking up with you?

And your second chance offer has some gaps? So she's willing to consider a second chance, but wants to see the full offer first?

I'm going to guess. I might guess wrong. Right now it sounds kinda like this conversation is happening with some parts out loud and some in the undercurrent. But not ALL THINGS SPOKEN OUT LOUD plain on the table.

Blue just to block it off. Pretend it's like a slow motion movie.

"Let's have a second chance! I've changed!"​

​

"Ok. I was gonna break up but the sex lately has been good and we've been communicating more... so good start. Maybe I'll consider second chance. But what is the plan? What are you doing about your jealousy management? Old habits? Reading a book? Getting a counselor? Dealing with the reasons we were on our way to a break up in the first place? "​

​

"Um... I changed my outlook. I want things better. I have no concrete pan. I feel safe with an agreement that we couple play together before separate play because then that other couple I feel threatened by goes away. I want you to dump this couple without me having to say that part out loud. And to kinda make up for that, I'll agree to minimal sex play with the friend even though I don't like that either. " ​

​

"Ok. Counterproposal. For FUTURE couples, I'll agree to play together before separate. But I was already negotiating here when we were on the way to breaking up. So for THIS couple, I want to pursue on my own. "​

​

"Um... I don't like it."​

And here is the fork in the road. You might feel scared because you see the writing on the wall. Like the movie will go.

"Yeah... so this is feeling like same old song, different day. Nothing much really changed. We just had the last bright spark before the candle goes out. Let's skip the second chance and just finish breaking up. Cuz then I can do what I want without having to deal with accommodating you. And I'm ok with that because I was on my way out the door anyway." ​

​

"Nooooooooo!!!" (paralysis, can't think of counterproposals.)​

If so? I get that it's hard to feel, and I see that you really want to try to work things out. I see her making suggestions. But I am not seeing you come up with any counterproposals to help "working out" actually happen.

Like

"Wait. How about this? You hold off playing with that other couple for a month. I'm not going to stop you from pursuing that couple because it started while we were breaking up. And you are willing for FUTURE couples to go together before separate. You are giving. I could give. ​

​

But can I have a small pause at least before you pursue more? Give me a month to finish reading this jealousy workbook, and setting up a counselor appt, and my other jealousy management supports? Because for things to be different this time I need some time to set all that up first before you see this couple and my jealousy alarm start ringing and I start wigging out that you are with a dude. I really want to try for it to be different this time and learn to get past this." ​

Then she might agree to hold off while you take some actionable steps. Then it's not just "all talk, no show."

Otherwise nothing will be different. You will ping on dude jealousy and behave however it was before.

And she might be tired of dealing in all that and might pick "Never mind. No second chance. Just break up. Then I can just date how I want without dealing with accommodating you. "

Is that where this is? Did you need helping with reasonable "alternate movie endings" so you can keep negotiating with her to find a way to make it work? More ideas?

Galagirl

 

[RJO]

I hear what you saying. I guess what I'm trying to find is some middle ground between honoring these connections + building up her autonomy and saying yes to something (exclusive BDSM triad, in which she is subbing to another Dom and his wife, starting ASAP) that evokes a loud NO every time I think about it.

Thank you very much for your thoughts. The original agreement was designed to open things up in a way that moves from playing together towards playing separately, ensuring that we both feel safe and secure along the way. I think that is a reasonable and healthy way to proceed and my partner agrees. But she doesn't want it to apply in this case because she started talking to them before I said clearly that I wanted to stay together and renegotiate our "laissez faire" approach. We are at the crossroads you described. I think she is wary of putting all her energy back into the relationship because she thinks I will "relapse". I am doing a lot of therapeutic work and I know that I have changed permanently.

I don't want to date separately because I have no interest in playing separately right now. I want to focus on rebuilding our relationship. And I would like to feel comfortable enough to let her go do what she likes because I think it would be good for her. But I feel so jealous and I can't imagine staying home to watch our son while she goes out to have intense BDSM play and sex with people that I have no connection to. Especially when we are just reigniting our sex life and digging back into BDSM after some dark years. And quite frankly, it makes me feel very sad to think about my partner fucking and subbing to another man at this moment. I will be fine with this when we are playing together and can imagine being cool with her playing separately in future.

I know that she will be energized by being allowed to see them and that will likely bring more positive energy to our relationship from her side. But I don't know how to make this happen without feeling crushed and stressed out. Us having exclusive relationships only made sense to me when I thought we might break up.

She doesn't to breakup and she wants to follow the path we agreed on but she also wants this extra relationship. I can ask her to pause but she is under pressure from them. And I"m not sure what would change in a month. I'm showing her every day that i am on a different page now and 100% committed to us. My proposal is that she could play alone with the woman in this couple or with the man and myself, once I meet them. And then reassess things after a while. I think I could be ok with letting her be just with them in time if we have all become friends. And I've said I'm ok with her doing some BDSM play with her male friend because I know he's super respectful.

But I don't know how I could possibly convince myself to accept their original plan of having an exclusive triad in which my partner is their submissive. I'm really trying to find a good solution here but eery time I think about that option, "fuck no!" is what comes to mind.

I cannot endorse the "musts" that Kevin has written above about your partner's behaviour.

At the end of the day, you can really only control your own behaviour.

It reads in your OP that your partner has agreed to playing together first, but simply wants to retain those connections she has made. This is not an unfair thing, this is not a detraction from your dyad, in fact, by your own admission, it has been really positive for your dyad. Perhaps consider not trying to shut the barn door after the horse has bolted. Consider giving her the autonomy to manage those newer connections in the way she sees fit. There's no indication she's suddenly become a neglectful mother or partner, on the contrary, she's a better partner for you now than before.

As for the other couple wanting her to unicorn for them, they're absolutely no threat to you. They'll be doing the unicorn hunter thing of preserving their dyad at all costs.

And please work on that rather misogynistic view that playing solo with women is fine, but not with men. All you're doing is invalidating women's sexual expression.

 

[Evie]

Okay, now with the information that this other couple are looking for her to submit as a (significant) part of their play, while you and her are also redeveloping your D/s dynamic puts a slightly different light on it. Still doesn't address the gender inequality, but it does make a difference, imo, about the process of negotiation. It would not be implausible for you, in the capacity of her Dom, to be party to negotiations, or even present in a spectator capacity *if negotiated as such* where they still get their unicorn experience, as does she, but then you perhaps become responsible for her aftercare by taking her home, giving her snacks, putting her to bed, "reclaiming" her in that D/s capacity, again, if this is all negotiated and consented to. If nothing else, BDSM does allow for very explicit negotiations.

 

[Magdlyn]

Welcome.

Here are some things to help you get perspective. This is just meant to be food for thought.

This is a special case in ethical non-monogamy, since you are her dominant. Is that a 24/7 thing? Is she collared? Has she agreed to accede to your wishes for her in all things, and is that a contract that is still in place?

Or was that all thrown out when you 2 were basically on a break and she started establishing a connection with the couple? Is she now their official sub/slave? Is she collared formally, or does she wear a play collar?

What kind of contract do you have, if any? Did you kindly respectfully uncollar her? (I am good friends with a guy whose Dom husband never did formally uncollar him when they divorced, and he was fucked up in the head for months.)

Dom/sub or not, it sounds like she is in reality an autonomous individual and she is pursuing individual pleasure and connection. Also, you say that YOU would be OK if she played with this couple in if you were there. Don't you consider THEIR feelings? Do they even want to be watched by her long-term partner?

I think it's icky when a man tells his female partner she can have sex with another woman as long as he gets to play too, or at least watch. If that other woman is a lesbian, that thought would probably be gross to her. Just the same, if the members of this couple are Dom/mes, do they want another Dom in the mix, playing, or even watching? Maybe they are not exhibitionists.

Why are you afraid of your partner having sex with another man? So many guys come here afraid of that. Usually it's a comparison thing. The other guy might have a bigger penis, is most quite common fear. Otherwise, he might be better looking, fitter, richer, etc. Women aren't seen as a threat because of lack of penis. Men don't stop to consider the almighty strap-on or high quality vibrator Women's cocks are always hard and ready. They don't prematurely ejaculate, they don't wilt. They just need to be recharged with a new battery or swapped out for a different size and shape. Besides that, women often are better kissers, better at oral and fingering, romantic gestures, emotional intimacy, etc.

Of course, another guy may get your partner pregnant. That is one worry that fertile people have. Is that your concern? Dig deep. What's the real root of your jealousy or envy?

 

[Magdlyn]

Hello RJO,

Ethical open/poly must be consensual, and your consent can only be given wholeheartedly, or not at all. As it stands, you do not consent to playing separately with men. You cannot consent to it. Not right now. You are not okay with it, that's how you feel and you can't pick and choose your emotions. It's not about whether you are "controlling" her, you don't have a choice about that. Your heart is not in it.

If your partner is going to be ethical, she must limit her contact with that other couple to platonic and non-sexual (or limit the sex to sexting), and she must limit her contact with the old friend to platonic and some non-sexual BDSM. In the meantime, she must play together with you with other people, unless/until you start to feel okay about playing separately. Then she can start playing separately with the other couple and the old friend.

Talk to her, and see that she understands. Per your earlier agreement, you do not -- you cannot -- consent to playing separately (except with women) at this time. You do not (yet) feel comfortable with that. Hopefully the two of you can work it out from there, and eventually arrive at a point where all involved feel comfortable and consent freely.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

No. No, no, no, no, no.