The journey to myself
- Thread starter Tinwen
- Start date
So, great weekend and weird metamour situation.
I've been to a shibari workshop with Idealist. I can't even tell you how great the shibari community is, and there was a really extraordinary teacher coming over. We learned a lot about movement, got inspiration, we've grown and pushed boundaries and really connected over the two days. I feel great in my body today.
Weird situation/ repeating problem.
There was another event paralel to this one, an Idealist said Meta wants to go there for the evening, so they're going after our workshop ends. I know the people and might consider going myself, but I suspected it's their date and I shouldn't distrub. Idealist said he'd rather have me there - we weren't alowed to make any photos at the workshop, and he wanted to tie some of the patterns before we forget them; and also he's now connected to me and would like to "soften the transition". I suspected Meta might have litte understanding for that train of thoughts, but I thought ok I go we make photos and then I fade out. I actually tried to call her to here her stance (yes! directly! not leave it on Idealist!... I consider that brave) but she was unavailable, so I just went.
By the time she arrived (later then promised as usually) we were done with the scene and just going to get some food. I was hungry as hell. So we had food the three of us, which should be ok. Idealist also wanted to write down some main points from the workshop, so we were brainstorming them. Meta was interested in the beginning... until she said it was blurry already and that she wanted to do something the two of them. I was prepared to leave them alone, but once at the task of course I wanted to finish it, and Idealist too. So like... five minutes... later (when we were really about to finish) she started making a fuss and crying that we're ignoring her. She said she wanted to go upstairs with him and greet people, and when I suggested she could maybe go greet people at her own first, she was offended.
I mean, I get it. If it was my date? I'd be upset too, I may be furious, I may even take it out on Idealist. I'm very clear that dates together with Meta don't count. But I've learned to be very very upfront about what's a date and what are my expectations for the evening. I don't do the "take my subtle hint" game. And I'm learning to state my problems early enough so that people around do have some time to adapt before I melt down crying or something.
I've told her that I would be glad if those situations could be solved between us earlier, while a calm discussion about plans still can be held.
I'm trying not to make this bigger then it is, she doesn't know about a conflict an hour later, while I can ruminate on fights for weeks. Their expectations didn't match, and that's it. They've made up already.
The sad thing is, Idealist doesn't understand the situation. He can't think like "oh she probably expects this to be a date for the two of us, so I shouldn't be encouraging Tinwen to come, because that will make Meta uncomfortable". It's not like he doesn't understand that relationships need dedicated time, he just isn't exactly good in figuring out at which point of time it is really important to have it. Also I don't feel like he's helping to protect her boundaries. Instead, he's like "oh don't worry that will just be ok".
IMHO he isn't treating her meltdowns with much understanding. He considers them blackmail and improper communication. And they really are far from constructive - as I see it they really ensue from her trying to put up with things she shouldn't be putting up with and not speaking her truth (early enough). And she will lash out on anything at that moment. But it's so bad to watch how he will withhold attention in the conflict when a lack of attention (perhaps to an issue specifically) is exactly what caused it.
He also said he's still glad I came, because he doesn't think it would end any better without me. They would still be on a very different page.
None of mine business.
So, what should I do? I did have that insight that this is their date and he isn't taking it seriously. Does that mean I shouldn't go? That would be me trying to protect her boundaries in a situation where it is their job to make a clear agreements and his job to communicate them to me, and in a situation where I have no direct input, just guesses. Doing that kind of things is maybe considerate but exhausting. Of course, if I felt slightly less able to cope I would not have gone just to protect myself from potential drama.
I would like to improve the overall situation somehow, but I am at a loss. The thing I can do is try for more clear communication with Meta, which is not easy due to both of ours shortcommings. And ... I tried this time, so I don't have any bad conscience.
Is there anything else I can do?
I've been to a shibari workshop with Idealist. I can't even tell you how great the shibari community is, and there was a really extraordinary teacher coming over. We learned a lot about movement, got inspiration, we've grown and pushed boundaries and really connected over the two days. I feel great in my body today.
Weird situation/ repeating problem.
There was another event paralel to this one, an Idealist said Meta wants to go there for the evening, so they're going after our workshop ends. I know the people and might consider going myself, but I suspected it's their date and I shouldn't distrub. Idealist said he'd rather have me there - we weren't alowed to make any photos at the workshop, and he wanted to tie some of the patterns before we forget them; and also he's now connected to me and would like to "soften the transition". I suspected Meta might have litte understanding for that train of thoughts, but I thought ok I go we make photos and then I fade out. I actually tried to call her to here her stance (yes! directly! not leave it on Idealist!... I consider that brave) but she was unavailable, so I just went.
By the time she arrived (later then promised as usually) we were done with the scene and just going to get some food. I was hungry as hell. So we had food the three of us, which should be ok. Idealist also wanted to write down some main points from the workshop, so we were brainstorming them. Meta was interested in the beginning... until she said it was blurry already and that she wanted to do something the two of them. I was prepared to leave them alone, but once at the task of course I wanted to finish it, and Idealist too. So like... five minutes... later (when we were really about to finish) she started making a fuss and crying that we're ignoring her. She said she wanted to go upstairs with him and greet people, and when I suggested she could maybe go greet people at her own first, she was offended.
I mean, I get it. If it was my date? I'd be upset too, I may be furious, I may even take it out on Idealist. I'm very clear that dates together with Meta don't count. But I've learned to be very very upfront about what's a date and what are my expectations for the evening. I don't do the "take my subtle hint" game. And I'm learning to state my problems early enough so that people around do have some time to adapt before I melt down crying or something.
I've told her that I would be glad if those situations could be solved between us earlier, while a calm discussion about plans still can be held.
I'm trying not to make this bigger then it is, she doesn't know about a conflict an hour later, while I can ruminate on fights for weeks. Their expectations didn't match, and that's it. They've made up already.
The sad thing is, Idealist doesn't understand the situation. He can't think like "oh she probably expects this to be a date for the two of us, so I shouldn't be encouraging Tinwen to come, because that will make Meta uncomfortable". It's not like he doesn't understand that relationships need dedicated time, he just isn't exactly good in figuring out at which point of time it is really important to have it. Also I don't feel like he's helping to protect her boundaries. Instead, he's like "oh don't worry that will just be ok".
IMHO he isn't treating her meltdowns with much understanding. He considers them blackmail and improper communication. And they really are far from constructive - as I see it they really ensue from her trying to put up with things she shouldn't be putting up with and not speaking her truth (early enough). And she will lash out on anything at that moment. But it's so bad to watch how he will withhold attention in the conflict when a lack of attention (perhaps to an issue specifically) is exactly what caused it.
He also said he's still glad I came, because he doesn't think it would end any better without me. They would still be on a very different page.
None of mine business.
So, what should I do? I did have that insight that this is their date and he isn't taking it seriously. Does that mean I shouldn't go? That would be me trying to protect her boundaries in a situation where it is their job to make a clear agreements and his job to communicate them to me, and in a situation where I have no direct input, just guesses. Doing that kind of things is maybe considerate but exhausting. Of course, if I felt slightly less able to cope I would not have gone just to protect myself from potential drama.
I would like to improve the overall situation somehow, but I am at a loss. The thing I can do is try for more clear communication with Meta, which is not easy due to both of ours shortcommings. And ... I tried this time, so I don't have any bad conscience.
Is there anything else I can do?
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So, as for the last described situation, Idealist thanked me again the next day for being there (huh?) and providing him perspective, and I reminded him that it's not my job and they should seek a therapist. (I remembered that I even gave them a contact back in July.) He agreed, but I suppose nothing has happened in that direction yet. We were all incredibly busy throughout the whole summer.
I feel shitty today. I'm supposed to be studying for an exam on a lecture my adviser had. I was unwell all of yesterday in the kind of where I don't even know if I am tired, depressed, have an upset stomach, or... if I'm anxious. I guess I am anxious. A fog is around my brain and I am by no means able to concentrate on what I should be doing.
Actually I had been rather successful this summer at work. Slow, but successful in the end, because I wrote an article pretty independently. I still have to write introduction and conclusion, but the main body is finished in my view (let's see what my boss says when he comes back next week). More work left, but I think it can be done until end of September when it's due. I feel like a scientist
I may be a little anxious about that too, but ... I was still functioning last week.
But it seems I am hardly able to study for exams any more. The last exam I had were my master's finals. The amount of work scared the shit out of me, and I spent weeks in anxiety and haven't learned most of it. Luckily, the examiners were really nice (and fond of my theses?) and helped me remember some of the basics we did in the lectures, so I passed.
It seems I am really terribly bad in processing anxiety in a way which would allow me to work. Undertaking action should help... unless I am not able to stick to it in any meaningful way. I don't know how I was able to finish all the exams of my studies - I only know it took a lot of time; and it must have been a little better in the first years.
I am not going to take anxiety medication. It's addictive, and it makes me asleep. But I would really like to come to understand the core of this fear. I'm already better with working with other emotions, usually good at examining the parts and roots of them, but this one seems as undifferentiated I couldn't even recognize it. So this post is one of the many attempts at processing I have done today instead of doing real work.
I recognize the absurdity. If I was able to actually sit down and study, there would be nothing to fear at all. This exam is not unmanageable, I'd just do it on Monday. Like this? I'm inviting the very embarrassment and feelings of guilt and incompetency that I fear.
I feel shitty today. I'm supposed to be studying for an exam on a lecture my adviser had. I was unwell all of yesterday in the kind of where I don't even know if I am tired, depressed, have an upset stomach, or... if I'm anxious. I guess I am anxious. A fog is around my brain and I am by no means able to concentrate on what I should be doing.
Actually I had been rather successful this summer at work. Slow, but successful in the end, because I wrote an article pretty independently. I still have to write introduction and conclusion, but the main body is finished in my view (let's see what my boss says when he comes back next week). More work left, but I think it can be done until end of September when it's due. I feel like a scientist
I may be a little anxious about that too, but ... I was still functioning last week. But it seems I am hardly able to study for exams any more. The last exam I had were my master's finals. The amount of work scared the shit out of me, and I spent weeks in anxiety and haven't learned most of it. Luckily, the examiners were really nice (and fond of my theses?) and helped me remember some of the basics we did in the lectures, so I passed.
It seems I am really terribly bad in processing anxiety in a way which would allow me to work. Undertaking action should help... unless I am not able to stick to it in any meaningful way. I don't know how I was able to finish all the exams of my studies - I only know it took a lot of time; and it must have been a little better in the first years.
I am not going to take anxiety medication. It's addictive, and it makes me asleep. But I would really like to come to understand the core of this fear. I'm already better with working with other emotions, usually good at examining the parts and roots of them, but this one seems as undifferentiated I couldn't even recognize it. So this post is one of the many attempts at processing I have done today instead of doing real work.
I recognize the absurdity. If I was able to actually sit down and study, there would be nothing to fear at all. This exam is not unmanageable, I'd just do it on Monday. Like this? I'm inviting the very embarrassment and feelings of guilt and incompetency that I fear.
Oh. This is total people pleasing.
Since my advisor is the examiner, I 'can't afford' to 'be a disappointment' here.
It's also existential fear, since 'my future depends' on this person.
Which is utter bullshit, since basically any other work I could possibly do pays better then a phd. If he doesn't want me here, SO WHAT?
Well, a bunch of things would happen. I would have to accept that science is not really for me. Or he could make my life hell instead of just throwing me out. Or he could just loose interest in really working with me and let me finish a bad phd with bad results and no outlook. But you know, if I don't do science, SO WHAT? I can do something with more direct impact on my environment, which might be good too.
It's also reinforced by that thought that I 'should' be able to study. Oh yeah.
I feel broken because I even have this anxiety and these thoughts. Luckily my college has left already and there's virtually no one on the whole floor - so I can process and cry a little.
Thanks for reading.
Since my advisor is the examiner, I 'can't afford' to 'be a disappointment' here.
It's also existential fear, since 'my future depends' on this person.
Which is utter bullshit, since basically any other work I could possibly do pays better then a phd. If he doesn't want me here, SO WHAT?
Well, a bunch of things would happen. I would have to accept that science is not really for me. Or he could make my life hell instead of just throwing me out. Or he could just loose interest in really working with me and let me finish a bad phd with bad results and no outlook. But you know, if I don't do science, SO WHAT? I can do something with more direct impact on my environment, which might be good too.
It's also reinforced by that thought that I 'should' be able to study. Oh yeah.
I feel broken because I even have this anxiety and these thoughts. Luckily my college has left already and there's virtually no one on the whole floor - so I can process and cry a little.
Thanks for reading.
Can't you do science with a Masters? Lots of science takes place elsewhere than a university. And having even an umimpressive Phd. is mighty impressive in nonacademia. Boosts your pay considerably even if you are not working in your subject field. I have a friend who could not finish his doctorate in some area of biology but is good with computers. He was snapped up to work on the Human Genome Project.
Leetah
Leetah
Maybe? I guess
It would be a change of subject again, for sure, I am doing pretty theorethical stuff now, and happy with that. (And I am not that good with computers.)Thanks
I'm sure it will be better now, a little at least. I am less tense. I've been working on fears most evening yeasterday, and I'm about to go study somewhere without internet now.
Refusnik
Member
Sounds like it was an awkward situation to be in. I agree that it definitely seems like he doesn't understand the situation however being actively poly in a way that doesn't lead to situations like that requires a fair amount of self awareness and emotional intelligence. Poly is as much a practice as a belief so at some point doesn't he have some responsibility to make an attempt at understanding the situation, particularly if it keeps popping up?
Of course it's their relationship so who knows the exact nature of their agreed on boundaries or how they've tried to communicate about it when nobody is around. I agree with you that the way she handles the situation is less than constructive however he makes it worse by invalidating her feelings with a "oh, it's ok, it will be fine." Strikes me as poor communication on both sides.
Really the only thing you can do is choose your actions and how you'll communicate your feelings about all this to Idealist. It's their relationship,
they're the only ones that can enforce their mutually agreeable boundaries and decide how they want to handle it when one is crossed. Also I don't think it's up to you and Meta to communicate "hey, he's crossing a boundary," in this situation because you have a relationship with Idealist, not her so he should be the one working to establish better lines of communication with both of you.
While you can't make them change their dynamic, you can choose to not participate in the situation if it's not comfortable or pleasant for you. It's not your job to make him more aware of what's going on with Meta but it also doesn't mean you have to be exposed to the fallout from his ignorance. Next time you're invited to a date under those circumstances, a polite decline is in order if you don't think you'll enjoy it. Like you said, she handled it in a less then ideal way and he's clueless. Those two working in tandem can be increasingly emotionally damaging to all involved if it continues to happen so sometimes keeping a distance from it is the best thing you can do.
Also, have you communicated to Idealist some of things you've written here about how you feel being in those situations? If so, beyond saying "it will be ok," what else has he said?
Also keep in mind that your adviser's future also depends on you. Having a string of successful students redounds to the adviser's credit, improving their academic standing and bringing more quality students for them to work with.
If you have the impression that your adviser has a negative attitude toward you that is not good. I know someone who had to replace their adviser and a couple of committee members when their comments at a review showed them to be personally hostile and dismissive. Luckily one of the other committee members who had respect for the candidate and their work helped them replace the people who needed to go.
Leetah
If you have the impression that your adviser has a negative attitude toward you that is not good. I know someone who had to replace their adviser and a couple of committee members when their comments at a review showed them to be personally hostile and dismissive. Luckily one of the other committee members who had respect for the candidate and their work helped them replace the people who needed to go.
Leetah
I guess this is true... I know he has admited he needs a student, I'll try to remember
No, thankfully, this is not the case, we get along well. It's really insecurity, thinking like "If I can't do the exam, this may change".
So far he's offered me his ideas to expand on, as well as quite a bit of strategic thinking when putting together my study plan, he's complimented me on the work I have done.
It's also true though that he's shown how harschly he can judge work (or the people doing it) which he doesn't consider good enough. I've never seen him apply this to his own colleges though.
However I'm a little weary what happens if he learns about my mental health issues. Again, probably nothing at all. But I'd much rather show him that 'hey, I can manage' (most of the time), before it comes out that actually sometimes I can't.
Of course, all of this is missing the point that I want to manage for my self (and be secure enough to get of the meds eventually, thank you very much), and study for myself. I seem to forget that when anxious.
Going to do my best now. I slept 12 hours, must be fine now, no?
We spoke lengthly on the phone the next day. I think I told him most of what I wrote here, softening the part about how he's acting inconsideratelly probably.
He basically appologized for what happened and thanked me for being there - it seems to have helped him in some weird way in this particular situation.
I reminded him of the therapist and he was like 'oh, Meta has promised to contact him, maybe I should make sure it happens'. I doubt they've done it, not my business.
So, on Monday I failed the exam. Excellent example of setting up a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I didn't know a concept which was kind of a prerequisite to the lecture, but the last time I've heared it is like three years ago. I probably could have managed the "advanced" parts.
It's kind of a relief that embarrassment already happened - so hopefully I can be way less nervous next time.
I didn't know a concept which was kind of a prerequisite to the lecture, but the last time I've heared it is like three years ago. I probably could have managed the "advanced" parts.
It's kind of a relief that embarrassment already happened - so hopefully I can be way less nervous next time.
On another note, I've had one more experience of casual sexual activity with the friend I mentioned some time ago.
I thought it was going much better then last time, communication-wise, and just generally better.
So I was quite surprised when he said afterwards that he doesn't want to do it again. Because of his gf. He's into super casual, not risking a relationship.
Eh... you were not really clear on that, but ok. It's for the better. I probably would get attached.
The part I am mad at is his statement of something like 'oh, I really didn't mean to, I don't know how it happened'. I mean, he was the one who iniciated! Like, what do you mean you don't know how it happened? You start touching my nipples, and then you don't know why you did it?
I've been participating in sexual activity I didn't want to previously, but I thought this level of awareness is for 17 years old.
I also understand letting go of control and surrendering to arousal, even if your mind is not completelly onboard. But I'm no longer like 'I don't know why I did it I was on autopilot'. It was my in the moment decision to release control. And I know the moment I did it.
(And I don't really understand how that works if you are the one iniciating at the same time.)
With a man who managed to negotiate an open relationship? I don't think he should be like 'oh it just happened'. I just didn't expect such a low level of awareness and he frankly disappointed me.
Sex deserves to be treated with much more care then that for a lot of reasons. One being health, second being care for your partner, but the most important to me ... what fulfilment do you derive from being on autopilot?
I realize just how sacred erotic connection has become to me. It's become like really important to me, and it's become important to do so mindfully. I probably shouldn't, but I realize I judge people who just do sex to get off, not to be connected to their partner. (I wanted to write who do sex like masturbation, haha... could make my masturbation more mindful!) Be it for one night - I want the connection to be true.
It feels really devaluating to the connection, that this man did it 'on autopilot'. As I said, I wouldn't expect that from him, since he's generally very good with emotion, not a hiding everything under the rug type.
I'd like to know if this is the source of my anger, the feeling that the experience is devaluated by this. It would make sense, but actually it feels more like a general insult to my beliefs. Sex just shouldn't be done without awareness, it's so sad if it is.
I told him, that I call bulshit on 'I don't know how it happened', and he replied that he doesn't want even want to be aware all the time. He said that he's in an open relationship because he doesn't want to break it because of something so insignificant as sex. I' try to see that this is just his view and everyone has a right to have a view, but I feel disgusted by this.
My view, my level of awareness and my boundaries must have changed so much in the last two years, especially during the tantra sessins I've been visiting. (Surprisingly much, as the tantra has been ~18 evenings). It's amazing. And this was a very sharp contrast to show me.
At least I know I have to choose compatible partners in this area now.
I thought it was going much better then last time, communication-wise, and just generally better.
So I was quite surprised when he said afterwards that he doesn't want to do it again. Because of his gf. He's into super casual, not risking a relationship.
Eh... you were not really clear on that, but ok. It's for the better. I probably would get attached.
The part I am mad at is his statement of something like 'oh, I really didn't mean to, I don't know how it happened'. I mean, he was the one who iniciated! Like, what do you mean you don't know how it happened? You start touching my nipples, and then you don't know why you did it?
I've been participating in sexual activity I didn't want to previously, but I thought this level of awareness is for 17 years old.
I also understand letting go of control and surrendering to arousal, even if your mind is not completelly onboard. But I'm no longer like 'I don't know why I did it I was on autopilot'. It was my in the moment decision to release control. And I know the moment I did it.
(And I don't really understand how that works if you are the one iniciating at the same time.)
With a man who managed to negotiate an open relationship? I don't think he should be like 'oh it just happened'. I just didn't expect such a low level of awareness and he frankly disappointed me.
Sex deserves to be treated with much more care then that for a lot of reasons. One being health, second being care for your partner, but the most important to me ... what fulfilment do you derive from being on autopilot?
I realize just how sacred erotic connection has become to me. It's become like really important to me, and it's become important to do so mindfully. I probably shouldn't, but I realize I judge people who just do sex to get off, not to be connected to their partner. (I wanted to write who do sex like masturbation, haha... could make my masturbation more mindful!
) Be it for one night - I want the connection to be true. It feels really devaluating to the connection, that this man did it 'on autopilot'. As I said, I wouldn't expect that from him, since he's generally very good with emotion, not a hiding everything under the rug type.
I'd like to know if this is the source of my anger, the feeling that the experience is devaluated by this. It would make sense, but actually it feels more like a general insult to my beliefs. Sex just shouldn't be done without awareness, it's so sad if it is.
I told him, that I call bulshit on 'I don't know how it happened', and he replied that he doesn't want even want to be aware all the time. He said that he's in an open relationship because he doesn't want to break it because of something so insignificant as sex. I' try to see that this is just his view and everyone has a right to have a view, but I feel disgusted by this.
My view, my level of awareness and my boundaries must have changed so much in the last two years, especially during the tantra sessins I've been visiting. (Surprisingly much, as the tantra has been ~18 evenings). It's amazing. And this was a very sharp contrast to show me.
At least I know I have to choose compatible partners in this area now.
Spork
Active member
So I've been in that nasty nic withdrawal brain space of getting outsized stress for stuff that I don't think should bother me much, but part of a big debate thing I was involved in with a male friend last night was men seeking sex just for its own sake. How I personally feel it's dehumanizing, and he thinks that women making men wait is about getting flattery and an ego boost for the woman.
He doesn't see that there is anything wrong with a man appreciating a woman and evaluating her based entirely on looks, wanting to have sex with her, and then dismissing her utterly from his life.
I'm like, so...my issue is, I value myself for my mind, for other things. His response: "But you're hot." Mine: No. I am not. And I don't think I even want to be. I feel like a woman could be announcing that she's found the cure to cancer and her life's work and everything she's made of herself isn't as important as the size of her tits. And he says well, I don't care what you do. If you cured cancer, that's nice, but it has nothing to do with attraction.
And he does not understand that this is why, at minimum, I want to make a man wait. So he can get to know me, so that WHO I AM is a thing he cares about. Being called hot isn't a compliment and being wanted just to bone and discard is an insult, and he does not comprehend it. And apparently...he isn't the only man in the world who doesn't.
I would think that an African American man would understand how having your very PERSONHOOD put into doubt would suck, but hey...who can even empathize with a female, not like we're people right?
Grr... And now I breathe, remember my man in love, looking into my eyes, and let...it...go. Bottom line, I haven't much interest in "just sex" anymore either.
He doesn't see that there is anything wrong with a man appreciating a woman and evaluating her based entirely on looks, wanting to have sex with her, and then dismissing her utterly from his life.
I'm like, so...my issue is, I value myself for my mind, for other things. His response: "But you're hot." Mine: No. I am not. And I don't think I even want to be. I feel like a woman could be announcing that she's found the cure to cancer and her life's work and everything she's made of herself isn't as important as the size of her tits. And he says well, I don't care what you do. If you cured cancer, that's nice, but it has nothing to do with attraction.
And he does not understand that this is why, at minimum, I want to make a man wait. So he can get to know me, so that WHO I AM is a thing he cares about. Being called hot isn't a compliment and being wanted just to bone and discard is an insult, and he does not comprehend it. And apparently...he isn't the only man in the world who doesn't.
I would think that an African American man would understand how having your very PERSONHOOD put into doubt would suck, but hey...who can even empathize with a female, not like we're people right?
Grr... And now I breathe, remember my man in love, looking into my eyes, and let...it...go. Bottom line, I haven't much interest in "just sex" anymore either.
Started a thread in polyamory and spirituality, started to write my own take on it, remembered how little of my emotions I knew as a teenager and got all emotional So you people are going to have to wait a little, or maybe someone else will respond first. Hang in there!
Spork, thank you for responding on my last post, I was happy to read it, although I didn't articulate an answer.
So you people are going to have to wait a little, or maybe someone else will respond first. Hang in there! Spork, thank you for responding on my last post, I was happy to read it, although I didn't articulate an answer.
Shit, that's cruel.
Spork
Active member
Yeah, that's the madness, is that he did not in the slightest understand WHY that was cruel or even objectionable.
So anyways. I don't know. I actually understand maybe just being attracted to someone without knowing that much about them and maybe thinking about getting down with some casual. But damn sure everybody had better be honest about what they are up to. Having a cavalier attitude about sex and doing it just to get off, well, it's one thing if everybody has given informed consent to THAT experience, but if a person declares themselves as such after the fact, especially if they seemed to be encouraging the formation of bonds (spending time, getting to know each other well, etc)
Feels so...deceptive.
And I don't like the idea of sex as insignificant either, at this point in my life, although I can certainly point to many past experiences, and say that yeah...they were insignificant. I just don't want that anymore.
So yeah I just wanted you to know that some people's attitudes about sex drive me a bit bonkers, too.
Also, Zen seems to have an interest in tantra, I've never really contemplated it, but I think I'd try anything with him... I take it you recommend this, hm?
So anyways. I don't know. I actually understand maybe just being attracted to someone without knowing that much about them and maybe thinking about getting down with some casual. But damn sure everybody had better be honest about what they are up to. Having a cavalier attitude about sex and doing it just to get off, well, it's one thing if everybody has given informed consent to THAT experience, but if a person declares themselves as such after the fact, especially if they seemed to be encouraging the formation of bonds (spending time, getting to know each other well, etc)
Feels so...deceptive.
And I don't like the idea of sex as insignificant either, at this point in my life, although I can certainly point to many past experiences, and say that yeah...they were insignificant. I just don't want that anymore.
So yeah I just wanted you to know that some people's attitudes about sex drive me a bit bonkers, too.
Also, Zen seems to have an interest in tantra, I've never really contemplated it, but I think I'd try anything with him... I take it you recommend this, hm?
For sure! And I think you will find it's not that far from what you have been already doing with Zen...
As with anything, pick your teacher and your style. You could find two different courses about "tantra" having nearly nothing in common. For example one would be doing explicit sexual stuff, and the other one basically individual yoga exercise. We were extremely lucky with ours - the teacher was really calm and an accurate thinker, which is my prerequisite to respect someone as a teacher, and the course was a fun mix of energy work+meditation+sexual stuff, also emphasizing boundaries, which was needed.
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The same confusion over and over again
It seems like a really, really valid argument to me. Not fear-based, like wanting monogamy for the "security" given by a "promise" (which is close to what I perceived).
I haven't made it a secret, that I seem to be essetinally monogamous. I am not the type of person who get's crushes all the time (really, I was 3 romantic relationships in my life and had a crush maybe also three times, counting Joker). I am not the type who feels an intense need to have multiple relationships, although I do think it could be nice. And I would certainly appreciate the freedom to pursue someone should I want to pursue some love, fwb or crush thing. Promisses in this area... make me feel bound. In a not nice way. But in practice? With the exeption of falling for Idealist in a really uncontrollable way I do not deviate from monogamy very far.
I really gave polyamory a go out of a lack of good arguments for monogamy. It's true I also remember dreading the thought of being sexually exclusive for the rest of my life. But since I am finding that I can't really enjoy sexuality without a relationship, and maintaining multiple relationships is so much work? I might give monogamy more credit.
I don't know what's the point. I wanted to remember that argumentation. But while I am writing this, thinking about the conceptual framework of polyamory still feels much better in my body then the framework of monogamy, or my idea of it. I am scared when I think about lifelong monogamy. I don't think I can give the promise to any one person, and I am not sure if a relationship can be held strong for such a long time, not to mention keeping the spark or rekindling it over and over again without much outside input. On the other hand I also want that lifelong, live-in partner, and I am scared of missing him when he finds someone else. And scared of the practicalities - I have no idea how to uphold two or more relationships in the intensity I want from my relationships.
Sigh.
So, I've read several people on this forum expressing an opinion similar to this lately. Basically "I've been happy with poly, but now that I have more time for myself, I get things done, that are more important then other relationships."
It seems like a really, really valid argument to me. Not fear-based, like wanting monogamy for the "security" given by a "promise" (which is close to what I perceived).
I haven't made it a secret, that I seem to be essetinally monogamous. I am not the type of person who get's crushes all the time (really, I was 3 romantic relationships in my life and had a crush maybe also three times, counting Joker). I am not the type who feels an intense need to have multiple relationships, although I do think it could be nice. And I would certainly appreciate the freedom to pursue someone should I want to pursue some love, fwb or crush thing. Promisses in this area... make me feel bound. In a not nice way. But in practice? With the exeption of falling for Idealist in a really uncontrollable way I do not deviate from monogamy very far.
I really gave polyamory a go out of a lack of good arguments for monogamy. It's true I also remember dreading the thought of being sexually exclusive for the rest of my life. But since I am finding that I can't really enjoy sexuality without a relationship, and maintaining multiple relationships is so much work? I might give monogamy more credit.
I don't know what's the point. I wanted to remember that argumentation. But while I am writing this, thinking about the conceptual framework of polyamory still feels much better in my body then the framework of monogamy, or my idea of it. I am scared when I think about lifelong monogamy. I don't think I can give the promise to any one person, and I am not sure if a relationship can be held strong for such a long time, not to mention keeping the spark or rekindling it over and over again without much outside input. On the other hand I also want that lifelong, live-in partner, and I am scared of missing him when he finds someone else. And scared of the practicalities - I have no idea how to uphold two or more relationships in the intensity I want from my relationships.
Sigh.
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I've got a lot of those thoughts going on in my mind too, Tinwen. Monogamy is so much easier on the one hand--socially acceptable, less jealousy-inducing, but I feel absolutely sick at the idea of only having sex and intimacy with one person for the rest of my life. I will never promise it, not even implicitly. It's too great an expectation, and I rebel against it. Like you, I find I'm very turned off by people who treat sex as a mere bodily function, which can be done without emotions. I try not to be judgemental about it, but sometimes I fail.
Nice to hear from you LoveBunny - I remember some of your threads. It's nice to hear that someone shares my thoughts.
To be just, I don't think my friend sees sex as completelly separable from emotions. He's just not interested in working on his awareness during sex, so in my opinion it's rather low. And yes, I try not to judge, but it's hard...
Spork
Active member
Yep, which is why I am eternally grateful that Zen came into my life in the time I was very polyamorous, and listened to me talk about it, and accepted that if this was the price of admission, dealing with his girl having multiple partners...he would deal with it. And he did. He did not want to be the guy who deliberately roped me away, either. He took only what I was willing to offer freely.
When I offered exclusivity, he said that while he was trying not to be "that guy" (cowboy essentially) he couldn't deny his relief. There were things about sharing me with others that make him nervous, and he's more comfortable being mono.
And I have brought things up since then for discussion, because I want to make sure that we know where we stand on stuff. I am clear to him that I hate the assumptions of standard monogamy as many do it in our culture. I will ask questions, I will be honest, and I want to communicate stuff. And I did not promise him forever. He knows I have a tough time believing in the idea of forever promises. So, we can negotiate changes in the future if we need to, I think. The flipside as I've said before is that unlike a lot of mono couples, neither of us should really be worrying about the other hiding things, cheating, etc. If something notable is happening, we will simply talk about it, because it doesn't have to be the end of the world. So hopefully trust is increased. At least I hope so. Because I cannot quash my nature as an extrovert, or a "flirt with the world, but without intent" person. I don't have it as part of my nature that I must have sex with multiple partners, but the socializing is going to happen. I prefer my partner to not be paranoid about whether it's leading to more behind his back, since I lived with that crap for way too long.
When I offered exclusivity, he said that while he was trying not to be "that guy" (cowboy essentially) he couldn't deny his relief. There were things about sharing me with others that make him nervous, and he's more comfortable being mono.
And I have brought things up since then for discussion, because I want to make sure that we know where we stand on stuff. I am clear to him that I hate the assumptions of standard monogamy as many do it in our culture. I will ask questions, I will be honest, and I want to communicate stuff. And I did not promise him forever. He knows I have a tough time believing in the idea of forever promises. So, we can negotiate changes in the future if we need to, I think. The flipside as I've said before is that unlike a lot of mono couples, neither of us should really be worrying about the other hiding things, cheating, etc. If something notable is happening, we will simply talk about it, because it doesn't have to be the end of the world. So hopefully trust is increased. At least I hope so. Because I cannot quash my nature as an extrovert, or a "flirt with the world, but without intent" person. I don't have it as part of my nature that I must have sex with multiple partners, but the socializing is going to happen. I prefer my partner to not be paranoid about whether it's leading to more behind his back, since I lived with that crap for way too long.