Things are never what you expect them to be, right?

[Oubliette]

I'm pretty new here. I've been lurking for a little while though.

A little background: I've been with M for 7 years, married for almost 4. We also have several children together. At the end of last year, I came out to him about my desire to open out marriage. The conversation went a lot better than I expected (i.e, he didn't divorce me!) and we spent the next few months reading, talking, learning, and even seeing a therapist with experience in this field.

What we originally agreed upon was outside relationships that were only sexual, no emotional attachment. We came up with a few rules to "protect our marriage, and so everything was fine, right?

In theory, it seemed great, until 2 weeks ago when shit got real. I went to a music festival by myself an hour away from home. After I saw the main act I wanted to see, I realized I didn't want to be there anymore. I texted M to see if he wanted me to come home, or if he minded if I hit up an old friend of mine who lived in the area. M was aware that I had a brief sexual history with this friend (O), and told me to go enjoy myself.

I ended up really enjoying myself, and realizing that there was more than just a sexual attraction with O, and that I wanted to continue taking to him and seeing him.

M & I revised and reevaluated our "rules" and also spoke with our therapist, and now I realize that I actually want poly relationships, not just sex.

M has been amazing through all of this, even though there's lots of feelings: fear, jealousy, etc.

We've decided (and yes O was included in this decision) that O and I can explore and feel whatever we feel, but there are time and resource limits that aren't negotiable because of the children, and existing familial obligations, compiled with the distance factor.

I saw O for the second time this weekend, where I was able to talk to him about how he feels being involved in this, and M also wrote him something from communicate his feelings directly to O.

The time I spent with O was amazing and surprisingly intense, and so that's scaring M, and me too a little.

I know a lot of it has to do with NRE, and so I'm trying my best to be mindful, and respectful of everyone involved, and make sure nobody is being neglected. But I'm scared too, because this was totally not what I "planned".

Any advice, insight, whatever, would be much appreciated!!!

 

[KC43]

Loving someone can be scary even in a mono situation. When I realized I'd fallen in love with Woody, I was terrified, especially since it had only been a few months since the last guy I'd loved had essentially ripped my heart to shreds and done a tap dance on the pieces. It gets easier.

A piece of advice that has nothing to do with your question: On here, a lot of us prefer that people make up nicknames for their partners and others, instead of initials. Initials tend to get lost in text and can be difficult to remember, and also make it difficult to tell what gender the people are. I'd suggest that you use names for your guys, maybe Mal and Orin for M and O (unless those are too close to their real names).

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Oubliette,

Have you read the book, "More than Two: a practical guide to ethical polyamory," by Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert? I recommend it.

As far as I can tell, you are doing fine in poly so far. Keep exploring this forum and posting your thoughts.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

... But I'm scared too, because this was totally not what I "planned".

Yup. Stupid life, never going as "planned" - totally feeling you on that one.

I, and everyone I know, assumed that I, being bisexual and poly, would end up with my husband and a wife/girlfriend. Nope. My 2nd love turned out to be a guy...whoops. Anyway, it ended up working out fine, after the initial hiccups. Dude and I will have our 5th anniversary this month and MrS and I will be celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary in June - still going strong.

 

[Magdlyn]

I am continually shocked at how many people come on here, drawn into an emotional relationship with a new person, when their marriage was opened merely to allow sexual relationships.

Is it really so unknown that sex leads to feelings? The hormone oxytocin released during kissing, cuddling, and orgasm causes bonding and love to happen in the brain.

This hormone is also released, to a lesser extent, while eating. So, sharing food with others causes bonding and relaxation. It is also released during breastfeeding, causing relaxation and bonding with the child. Studies also show there are bonding hormones released when we sit and talk, make eye contact, and cuddle non-sexually. There can be hormones released when we experience things our brains understand as "danger." So, watching a scary movie, going on a carnival ride, doing some kind of risky sport can make us become adrenaline junkies. If we share those experiences with a partner, we bond with them through the adrenaline.

Swingers try to prevent feelings, but repeated exposure to swinging partners can cause love to develop. Especially if we don't just shag our swing partners, but eat and drink, hang out together non-sexually at the meetups.

I have heard gay males can be in love with one partner, but also have numerous shallow sex-only relationships or one night stands. Not quite sure how that works, other than that men are good at tamping down feelings. Or maybe the mere competition for partners at gay bars makes certain men want notches in their bedposts more than a full-on relationship. I don't know.

Glad you've realized love is developing and are allowing that to blossom.

 

[Tinwen]

Is it really so unknown that sex leads to feelings? The hormone oxytocin released during kissing, cuddling, and orgasm causes bonding and love to happen in the brain.

I think it is really not that well know. Should I generalize my case, I knew very little relationship basics before stambling into a polyamorous situation. Because without much experience (which goes for many people who have had just a few serial-monogamy relationships) - everything is just anectotical evidence. Once I started to question society and the monogamy model, anything I had been told lost value.

Also, I guess it's a little hard to believe. You are in a long term relationship, you know you love your spouse, and you experience sexual desire for others. You know that love and sexual desire are two different things. You know some people are able to sleep around. You do not feel the wish for love, you just feel the desire fro sex. So... okej, sex has maybe led people to fall love in one case or the other, but why should that confusion happen to you? (Even if I know about oxitocyne, it's a hormone, isn't it gone in a few hours?)

 

[Magdlyn]

I think it is really not that well know. Should I generalize my case, I knew very little relationship basics before stambling into a polyamorous situation. Because without much experience (which goes for many people who have had just a few serial-monogamy relationships) - everything is just anectotical evidence. Once I started to question society and the monogamy model, anything I had been told lost value.

We sure are fed a bunch of "shoulds" about how love should go. How monogamy is the desired default, etc. Somehow the "love" message of the late 60s never quite made it. It became just a "sex" message. There is also a proliferation of people attempting to be "FWBs", as if it doesn't change your friendship when sex enters it. People everywhere have heard of swinger parties, but polyamory seems so strange and alien and surprising and suspicious.

Also, I guess it's a little hard to believe. You are in a long term relationship, you know you love your spouse, and you experience sexual desire for others. You know that love and sexual desire are two different things. You know some people are able to sleep around. You do not feel the wish for love, you just feel the desire fro sex. So... okej, sex has maybe led people to fall love in one case or the other, but why should that confusion happen to you? (Even if I know about oxitocyne, it's a hormone, isn't it gone in a few hours?)

The hormone does dissipate over time, but there is another one, dopamine, which is fired every time you so much as think about your lover/sex partner.

This is Your Brain on Love (there is a reason we call it chemistry!):
http://fusion.net/story/48571/your-brain-on-love-oxytocin-dopamine/

Note that the researcher Helen Fisher has a monogamy bias. It's still an interesting article.

 

[FallenAngelina]

.... sex has maybe led people to fall love in one case or the other, but why should that confusion happen to you? (Even if I know about oxitocyne, it's a hormone, isn't it gone in a few hours?)

i'm pretty sure that hormones are just one way in which repeated sex often leads to emotional attachment. There are 200,000 years of human (and 6 million years of prehistoric human) evolution egging us on in ways that go far beyond hormonal release. I'm with Mags. Can people be all that shocked when sex turns to love? I'm shocked each time they are shocked!

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Is it really so unknown that sex leads to feelings?

While that may be true, it is probably true for different people to different extents. I have had sex with WAY MORE people than I have developed feelings for (you know, all both of them) And my love for MrS is certainly not dependent upon having sex with him (the once or twice a year that we do).

At the same time, I realized that many people equated the "rush" they felt after having sex with someone a number of times as "love" - which is why I always avoided having sex with someone more than 3 times. (For me, "love" is what remains after that stupid oxytocin/dopamine surge of NRE hormones that I hate has abated.)

 

[JaneQSmythe]

There is also a proliferation of people attempting to be "FWBs", as if it doesn't change your friendship when sex enters it

Seriously? I have had sex with lots of my friends, it doesn't HAVE TO change anything. I avoided having sex with friends with whom I KNEW it would "change things" - but it is totally possible to share "pleasurable activities" (movies, food, sex, etc.) with people without, inevitably, ending up trying to be in a romantic relationship with them...Jeesh.

Really, I think that it is societal expectations that fuel this "sex changes things" meme. Other activities also activate our pleasure centers but we acknowledge that we can go to dinner with friends without needing to declare our undying devotion!

 

[Magdlyn]

While that may be true, it is probably true for different people to different extents. I have had sex with WAY MORE people than I have developed feelings for (you know, all both of them) And my love for MrS is certainly not dependent upon having sex with him (the once or twice a year that we do).

At the same time, I realized that many people equated the "rush" they felt after having sex with someone a number of times as "love" - which is why I always avoided having sex with someone more than 3 times. (For me, "love" is what remains after that stupid oxytocin/dopamine surge of NRE hormones that I hate has abated.)

Seriously? I have had sex with lots of my friends, it doesn't HAVE TO change anything. I avoided having sex with friends with whom I KNEW it would "change things" - but it is totally possible to share "pleasurable activities" (movies, food, sex, etc.) with people without, inevitably, ending up trying to be in a romantic relationship with them...Jeesh.

Really, I think that it is societal expectations that fuel this "sex changes things" meme. Other activities also activate our pleasure centers but we acknowledge that we can go to dinner with friends without needing to declare our undying devotion!

Yes, seriously. You have done things, like not have sex more than 3 times with certain people, or only fuck people whom you felt were unable to fall in love, to actively prevent "love" feelings to happen. This is also what swingers do.

You'd be a good poster child for those couples that Open just for sex, and aren't "allowed" to feel anything but platonic friendship once the panting slows down.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Yes, seriously. You have done things, like not have sex more than 3 times with certain people, or only fuck people whom you felt were unable to fall in love, to actively prevent "love" feelings to happen. This is also what swingers do.

To be clear these rules weren't to protect ME from developing feelings, it was to, hopefully, prevent THEM from developing feelings (or thinking they had based on some brain-drug fog) - which would cause them to exhibit behaviours (calling me repeatedly, thinking they had a claim on my time, getting jealous, making a nuisance of themselves, etc) that I would have found annoying. I wasn't concerned with developing feelings myself, convinced that I was immune from such "foolishness" because I didn't actually believe that such a thing as "romantic love" existed (and, as others have been discussing elsewhere, I'm still not sure exactly what that even means.)

You'd be a good poster child for those couples that Open just for sex, and aren't "allowed" to feel anything but platonic friendship once the panting slows down.

What? Because I know that it is possible to have sex with someone, even someone you care about a great deal, and not develop "romantic feelings" for them? Again, being not entirely clear on where the dividing line is between friend-love and romantic-love it is hard to pick which relationships to use as examples.

Like GirlFromTexlahoma, I tend to have very intimate friendships (although generally a limited number) where I will spend a large portion of my time with the object of my friend-affection. If there is a sexual attraction there then we will have sex, if not then we won't. I've had a always-friends and intermittently-sexual relationship with VV for almost as long as I have been with MrS. Whether or not we are being sexual at any given time doesn't affect my fondness and attraction to her as my friend - so, no, I don't think that sex "has to" change things. (Not saying that it doesn't change things quite often, just that it doesn't auto-magically HAVE TO.)

For me, really, the only difference I see between friend-love and partner-love is that, for me, the friend-love achieves a certain level of balance and plateaus at whatever level feels right for both people, whereas with partner-love we are together making conscious choices to deepen and strengthen that bond over time (living together, sharing finances, setting mutual goals, making long-term plans). But even that, I think, is an artificial distinction, as I would love to be able to do that with my intimate platonic friends as well...if it were ever feasible (you know if there were no complications like - unwilling spouses, careers, kids, social stigma)!

 

[Ravenscroft]

The hormone oxytocin released during kissing, cuddling, and orgasm causes bonding and love to happen in the brain.

At best, that's a slippery slope. All sorts of stuff elevates oxytocin, & might lead toward affection, or sympathy or "fellow feeling," but not mecanistically to hammer-to-head Romance.

And I'm pretty certain there's a strong component going the other way: when we've got a bunch of oxytocin running around, & good stuff happens, then we automatically assume cause-&-effect, but maybe reversed. Most of us got lots of good programming from breastfeeding & cuddling, so when we get a bit of an oxy buzz, we might misattribute it.

Some random stuff in my head:

Clicking "LIKE" on Facebook often causes oxytocin release.

Men with high oxytocin in their system are less likely to become interested in an attractive woman who's not already an intimate.

In fact, oxytocin appears to make people more prone to go along with what they believe the people near them want -- malleable, though not gullible.

Want more oxytocin? Try deep-breathing exercise, like you'd do to stave off a panic attack. Or maybe it's a "blowing off steam" thing, because blasting away for awhile with firearms also elevates oxytocin.

Laughter releases oxytocin. Even forced laughter (but it takes longer & feels like work).

When our first child was on the way, my SO was getting anxious as the due date approached & none of "the usual signs" were lining up. (No, I still have no idea what she meant, but pregnancy does that.) Her doctor told her the secret was "beer, pizza, & sex," all of which release oxytocin, which stimulates the whole childbirth sequence.

Oh, yeah: the doc also said there's oxytocin in semen. That'd mean semen is an antidepressant...?

 

[Evie]

Oh, yeah: the doc also said there's oxytocin in semen. That'd mean semen is an antidepressant...?

Judging by the amount of giggling coming from the tent next door last new years - yes.

Why did I jump to that conclusion? Because he said, "well, at least I'm not hung over any more..." and, I've had that giggle myself

 

[AJM]

My advice to Oubliett is to roll with it, enjoy it and see where it leads. Love is a wonderful thing@

 

[Spork]

I know damn well if I have sex with someone, I MIGHT get feels. I have no desire to have another partner ever act like this is some kind of a crime. (Making claims on their time and trying to get in touch, so annoying!<--that mentality.)

Some people can have sex and no feels result. Some, maybe not. The trick I think is to be self-aware enough to know what's what, and honest enough to share that info with potential partners. And I don't think it's as simple as oxytocin...that is a reinforcer, certainly. But probably histocompatibility via other senses, sexual compatibility, a host of other things come into it. I've had a lot of partners and only a FEW have triggered strong feelings in me, but those that have, it was immediate. Not something that needed time to grow and develop.

But I think it's probably important...to the point where couples considering opening should have this as a big warning, a "Rule #1"...that feelings MAY occur and no "sex only, no feels" rules in the relationship are guaranteed to prevent it. It's common enough to be part of our "normal" as humans.

So I disclaimer that shit before I have sex with anyone. I tell 'em. "Look, I love easily. It's not a trap. I will never want to move in or make babies or demand exclusivity etc. but I might get feels, it happens sometimes. If that's going to freak you out, then just let's not do this." That way I've at least done my part in trying to be honest. Someone like JaneQ and someone like me should never try to have a thing...and that's ok!...in a perfect world we'd at least let people know where we stand.

So yeah I'm not only shocked, and shocked that they're shocked, but I'm shocked sometimes that people think it's more ok to have casual sex, than casual emotional investment. Feelings don't give you diseases or babies... I don't understand how swinging is more "normal" (socially understandable or acceptable) than polyamory.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Someone like JaneQ and someone like me should never try to have a thing...and that's ok!...in a perfect world we'd at least let people know where we stand.

Yup! Totally agree. I was always totally upfront with what I was up for ... and what I wasn't. At that point, during my "attachment avoidance" years, as soon as you pointed out that you "love easily", you would have been on my no-go sex list. Which wouldn't have meant we couldn't be friends - most of my friends are not like me - I tend to be the cynic in the room.

 

[Spork]

Yup! Totally agree. I was always totally upfront with what I was up for ... and what I wasn't. At that point, during my "attachment avoidance" years, as soon as you pointed out that you "love easily", you would have been on my no-go sex list. Which wouldn't have meant we couldn't be friends - most of my friends are not like me - I tend to be the cynic in the room.

It's always good to know yourself so well. I think that's another issue with the couples that open and say "no feels allowed"...they don't fully know themselves. They know "faithfully married me" but they have lost touch perhaps with "free-wheelin' dating me" and other "me's" that exist in there.

I know that when my marriage imploded and I found myself trying to date and sexplore, I had NO IDEA who I was and what I wanted. I had to have a few months of flailing around making mistakes to work it out. And I certainly don't pretend to have it all nailed down to the point that every future relationship will be smooth sailin' (we're always learning more) but I at least have a better idea of what kind of emotional reactions and behaviors are possible with me. And a better idea of what sort of relationship style I'm shooting for. That sort of thing.

I come off as cynical sometimes because I have a very snarky sense of humor, but really I'm not. I actually think that life is pretty great. *shrug*

 

[Magdlyn]

At best, that's a slippery slope. All sorts of stuff elevates oxytocin, & might lead toward affection, or sympathy or "fellow feeling," but not mecanistically to hammer-to-head Romance.

And I'm pretty certain there's a strong component going the other way: when we've got a bunch of oxytocin running around, & good stuff happens, then we automatically assume cause-&-effect, but maybe reversed. Most of us got lots of good programming from breastfeeding & cuddling, so when we get a bit of an oxy buzz, we might misattribute it.

Some random stuff in my head:

Clicking "LIKE" on Facebook often causes oxytocin release.

Men with high oxytocin in their system are less likely to become interested in an attractive woman who's not already an intimate.

In fact, oxytocin appears to make people more prone to go along with what they believe the people near them want -- malleable, though not gullible.

Want more oxytocin? Try deep-breathing exercise, like you'd do to stave off a panic attack. Or maybe it's a "blowing off steam" thing, because blasting away for awhile with firearms also elevates oxytocin.

Laughter releases oxytocin. Even forced laughter (but it takes longer & feels like work).

When our first child was on the way, my SO was getting anxious as the due date approached & none of "the usual signs" were lining up. (No, I still have no idea what she meant, but pregnancy does that.) Her doctor told her the secret was "beer, pizza, & sex," all of which release oxytocin, which stimulates the whole childbirth sequence.

Oh, yeah: the doc also said there's oxytocin in semen. That'd mean semen is an antidepressant...?

If you read the article I linked, you'd see other hormones besides oxytocin and dopamine are involved. Check it out, it's very interesting.