thoughts and mixed feelings

clalb,

I'm just struck by the thought that you don't have a problem with V (although she is no prize). You have a problem with A and his behaviors (not what he says as GalaGirl wisely points out).

"When people show you who they are, believe them.' Attributed to Maya Angelou.

Look, people show us who they truly are by their actions, not their words. What they do is who they are, not what they say. A is telling you who he truly is. When people do that, it's critical to believe them.
 
I agree, it's A's actions that count, not his words.
 
Thank you all for your replies. I really means a lot. I´m doing better, and feeling stronger. I´m focusing on myself and trying to not let the negative feelings overcome. I´m eating better.

@Lizzie, thanks for this book tip. I might get it.

I really appreciate all your help and thoughts. And you´re all right: it´s his acts that count. The thing is, A. has never been much of a talker. He´s not actually someone who "talks pretty". He actually never does, that´s maybe why I believe him and want to give it a try.

And also it was really important to me to be clear that my problem is not really with V. (although I still think she´s gonna be trouble), but with A. and how he handles stuff.

He really is very selfish (yeah, GalaGirl, you´re right. I know it, but didn´t want to know it. And that´s what make it harder: to know and that´s something that has to change. I mean, it is okay that he puts himself first, I think that´s also important sometimes. But he does has to take my feelings into account - especially when we agreeded on something before and it was not just a show, but an emotionally painful situation, as Lizzie greatly pointed out. I´m still hurt and unfortunatelly I´m very resentful. I´m not sure if I can let it go, but I *want* to give it a try. I want to see if things can work, if I can forgive, if he´d then do what he says - not do it again, i.e.. As he´s always been sincere to me - and really not a pretty talker, as it might seem from the situation I described - I guess I want to give it a try and see who he really is. This could also be the bargaining stage of the grief process GalaGirl talked about. But I don´t want to rush into breaking up with him either - as I still believe in *us* and still want it to work out.

Wasn't the boundary "Don't disresepct me or other people. I want no part of that, directly or indirectly. Do it, and I leave."

What happened to

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I even wrote A. a letter saying I´d get out of the boat.
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I wrote the letter, but I never gave it to him. I was so confused about all this drama and I thought I should get out, I couldn´t handle the drama and everything involved with V.

But as you all pointed out, *he* is actually the one I have a problem with. But I want to see if we can solve these problems, if we can work it out. I never said I would leave if he did it - which I now, did. I clearly told him, if that happens again, I´ll be out. Also, that I´m not sure if I can really forgive him, but I´ll try. I want to cope. I want to believe he means it when he says he will not do that again, that he didn´t know it would hurt me that much (A. has limited social skills, also, I must add on top of everything. But it still makes me so angry/sad that he chose to not be around :( ). I really don´t know if I can do it, but I want to try it.

It is clear to me know that if he does it again, I won´t stick around. Also, I have to see how he will deal with meeting V. in Belgium and she coming to Germany for her vacation in August - first to where she´s from, he´ll go down to see her and she´ll come over here to spend a few days also. How this will affect - or not - *our* relationship.

He´ll be out of town for 10 days and I think that might also be good...

And a PS: I´m trying not to ask about V. and stuff, but he told me that she wants to know when we meet (and that´s like 4 times a week), so he tells her. He has to find "the right moment" to tell her, it´s not straight away. She´s not happy about it, she doesn´t like it. :(
 
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I clearly told him, if that happens again, I´ll be out.
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Then that is your current boundary on that situation. I hope you stick with it with 1 strike. :eek:

I´m trying not to ask about V. and stuff, but he told me that she wants to know when we meet
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There you may have to set a firmer boundary. You do not ask about V. He does not tell you about her. Other than calendar info for schedules and sex health labs and BCP for hygiene -- you just don't want to hear it until you say that you do. If he keeps telling you anyway when you want a break, you will _______. (Count up the strikes? And leave on X communication strikes?)

You sound like need a break from hearing everything that's going on with them because it exhausts you.

Galagirl
 
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GalaGirl said:
Then that is your current boundary on that situation. I hope you stick with it with 1 strike. :eek:
Galagirl
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I do hope, too. I don´t even know if there will be a strike one, since I don´t know if I can really let it go.

There you may have to set a firmer boundary. You do not ask about V. He does not tell you about her. Other than calendar info for schedules and sex health labs and BCP for hygiene -- you just don't want to hear it until you say that you do. If he keeps telling you anyway when you want a break, you will _______. (Count up the strikes? And leave on X communication strikes?)

You sound like need a break from hearing everything that's going on with them because it exhausts you.
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Yes, that´s right. We´ll see how the schedule goes and we´ve discussed that they can only have protected sex, as A. and I have unprotected sex.
It still makes me sad that we can´t communicate and I don´t really know what goes through her mind (and I still think she wants a monogamous relationship with him and bla bla), but I have to let it go.
 
Uh oh Galagirl! The three strikes baseball analogy does not transfer universally. ; )
 
Yup. It does not. Some people have more than 3, some less. I do think everyone could have some kind of limit of tolerance though. There's a point where it just becomes "I am no longer up for this. I'm out."

Cannot be giving people 1000+ "second chances" -- it's healthier to accept that they just don't care to change their behavior and are not likely to. Rather than throw self under the bus.

Clalb, since you are working on your boundaries, I encourage you to figure out where the rest of them lie. So you can know what you will and will not put up with and what your personal limits of tolerance are. You deserve to be treated well. So you treat you well.

Galagirl
 
GalaGirl said:
Clalb, since you are working on your boundaries, I encourage you to figure out where the rest of them lie. So you can know what you will and will not put up with and what your personal limits of tolerance are. You deserve to be treated well. So you treat you well.
Galagirl
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Yeah, I definetely need to treat me well.

I was thinking about making a list. The only thing is, some stuff, when they do come up, are not as bad as you thought they would be, while some other are, indeed. It is hard to know beforehand what those things might be...
 
Hi everyone. Just a quick update. Things were going up and down, V. Kept saying she wants A. to leave me, etc.

This was the weekend I asked him to stay. He went to Belgium to meet her, I went to Amsterdam to meet S. - and had a wonderful time. Came back thinking how much I like S. and would like to spend more time together.

Then A. writes me. When he went to Belgium, V. had said she wouldn't see him, if he'd get close to him, she'd punch him in the face (because she asked, again, for him to leave me. She can't have him being emotionally involved with someone else. He said he wouldn't, he's a jerk, that's what she told him). But they did met and had sex without condom. That was one of out two rules: always tell the truth and no unprotected sex with other partners - as we have unprotected sex. I'm really obnoxious about it. And he did. She asked him to, and he did. On the second fucking time they met. And he knew what it means to me.

That's a deal breaker. That's that strike Gala Girl talked about. I can't do it anymore. He broke my trust in him. He could have asked to wait, we could have tried to talk about it, they could have gotten tested. But, no, he fucking had sex with her without condom.
 
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I am so sorry.

That's really awful behavior! :mad:

Def a clear cut deal breaker for you. So you can cut him off now with clear conscience at this point and be free of his shenanigans. You may want to run an STD panel for yourself.

It was not you or anything about you -- it was him and his behaviors. Just one after the other stacking up.

I am truly sorry. I wish you healing moving forward.

Hang in there!
Galagirl
 
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((((((hugs))))))

Whatever is going on with him, it's about him. Not about you.

You sound lovely and thoughtful and like you really thought through everything and didn't want him to be involved in an impossible situation.

He sounds like he's on a bad-decision-making binge.

Also, I am curious as to how one goes from saying they will punch them in the face, to having sex without a condom. :confused:

I hope you're able to be kind to yourself and treat yourself right now.
 
Hi clalb,

Sorry things went down like that. V's behavior is bad, we already knew that, but I am appalled by A's behavior. I hope you'll find some healing in the months ahead.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
clalb, I am sorry I didn't see your thread earlier. Your sad story reflects what I went through with an ex bf just over a year ago!

So many similarities! Gala Girl advised me then as she advised you.

My ex was great in bed. He and I had so much in common. He was tall and handsome and well endowed. I loved him. He was also selfish, in fact, he had Asperger's Syndrome, so whatever pleased him, if it also pleased me, I was lucky. If he wanted something that hurt me, so what, he did it anyway. Totally self centered.

He also told me he loved me more as he was acting like a dick in the 2nd year, than he ever did when things were good in the first year of our relationship. Pretty words to placate me.

He took up with a woman who was basically seeing him behind her husband's back, until she finally confessed. They had opened their marriage quite recently, and the husband soon became very jealous and decreed that his wife and my bf could only have sex if he, the husband, who was bisexual, was there. This suited my bf as he was bisexual and this was his first chance at MM sex. But the husband still got jealous repeatedly, and broke up with my bf (and broke things off between his wife and my bf too) twice, only to get back together each time. It was like high school.

All this drama... and meanwhile my bf would be ecstatic one day, morose the next, over the issues with the couple. And I'd hear about it. Or GG would tell me to ask not to hear about it, and I tried that, but then I'd imagine the worst not knowing.

So I found out the term for what my ex was doing was "triangulating" his lovers. He enjoyed playing the couple against each other, and me against them. When I complained it was all so complicated, he chuckled happily, and told me "I like complicated."

He even used me for rides, to ostensibly take me on a date, and when we got to the venue, the woman was there and he'd hang out with her, flirting and intimately touching, and ignore me.

I had the thought, as you did, to all sit down and plan scheduling. But that never came to pass, since I realized it had all gone to shit, the 3 of them had a fucked up dynamic, and they were welcome to it. Their rollercoaster was grossing me out. I broke up with him.

Soon after, he told me they broke up with him for the third time.

6 weeks later he tried to reel me back in. We chatted a little online. We met to see if we could be friends, or some kind of FWBs, and he got sick pleasure out of lying about not being with them again, only to reveal he wasn't "allowed" to see the woman again, but was fucking the guy!

So anyway, misery loves company. I just wanted to let you know I can totally relate to what you went through. I found out it wasn't just his Asperger's Syndrome that caused this behavior, it was Don Juan Narcissism. I am fine now, one year later, older and wiser and looking out for the red flags of this sort of person.
 
Dear all,

thanks for your messages and sorry I didn´t reply for the last few weeks. It´s been a lot going on and I´ve been trying to do my best to work, eat, be a good mom to my little girl, enjoy the summer. I think I´ve been making a good job - maybe because I suffured so much before, with all that drama.

Mags, thanks for your post, too. It does seems so similar to everything I am going through. A. hasn´t been diagnosed with anything, but I suspect he has some social incapacibilities in some level.

What I want to share with you is - and I feel ashamed, but I want to share, since all of you have helped me so much so far - I couldn´t let it go. Things are slowly now and we are - both - trying to have some time to sort things out. But when we met I realized, despise my brain telling me I should break up everything, that he broke up my golden rule, my heart still wanted to try.

He apologized, said he would do everything different - I now it can be only pretty talking. But he asked me to give him another try. He got tested. I told him everything I need and want in a relationship and I´m not sure if he can give me that. Also, still when we have those kind of talks, about feelings and everything that HE has done wrong that fucked up our relationship, he gets mad. He says he asked for forgiveness and if I decide to forgive, I have to let it go. Which I agree to a certain point, but I´m not a robot, I can´t just press a buttom and forget everything. I know it was my golden rule and that makes it really hard. On the other hand, I know everyone makes mistakes...

V. is out of the picture. As we knew from the beginning, she wanted to be with him only. I even ended up talking to her, trying to understand her and even maybe give some support if she´d consider poly - some friends think I´m crazy for doing that. But that´s not the case, she´s not opened for it, not willing to work on her jealousy and decided to get out, as she won´t get what she wants. She then started seeing someone new on the next weekend after that unprotected sex thing happened so she can forget A. I haven´t talked to her in the last weeks and only know she and A. occasionaly text a bit, but things are done and I don´t want to be asking.

I still feel insecure. But still want things to work out. It´s hard to say what I see there. Is it love? Is it because the relationship was so good before and I hope that he can get better at it if he falls in love again and do things in a more respectful way for all of us involved? Is it because I see he has some issues (relationship, social) and I think I can help him out? Is it because I still think if I fail this relationship, I´m failing poly? Is it because I want him to fall for me and if he doesn´t, I think I´ve failed?

Lots of rhetorical questions...

I just wanted to share it with you, even though I feel ashamed that I didn´t stick to my boundaries...
 
It sounds like you are still trying to process. At you went from "shock" to "pain and guilt" and "bargaining" stages of mourning. Where you are trying to find a way to make it fly.

But he's still showing he's a jerk. Especially with him getting mad that you are not a robot. I wonder if he's latching on to you for now because the other woman is out of the picture and then he'd be left with no supply person? If so, it makes sense to me that you don't feel secure. He's not a reliable guy, and he's here filling time with you till he lines up another.

I hope you arrive at a place where you can keep away permanently even though you are going through grief stages. Sometimes stages can be a ping-pong effect -- you don't go through them in a line.

It may also take leaving physically and zero contact before the rest of you catches up to "being gone" -- mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc. It is going to hurt, and it is tempting to run back so the hurt stops. But it really doesn't STOP stop if you go back. It's illusion. You swap it out for another kind of hurt -- this sense of insecure.

But when we met I realized, despise my brain telling me I should break up everything, that he broke up my golden rule, my heart still wanted to try.
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Sounds like withdrawal symptoms to me. I hope you are able to see that. :(

Each time you go back to stop hurting from withdrawal, you risk being ensnared tighter or further emotionally beat up so it makes the next break away harder to do. :(

So tread carefully. Listen to head more. Put up with withdrawal even though it sucks. Work THROUGH it to the other side. Get more support. Have you seen a counselor?

It is not your job to help him out with whatever issues (relationship, social) he has. It is his job to improve himself. Not anyone else's.

You did not fail this relationship. He failed to meet your golden standard. Him failing that is not YOU failing at polyamory as a whole.

This guy does not sound healthy or emotionally safe to be around. You still sound like you are struggling with some twisted up thinking that you need to untangle. Again... if you have not already, consider seeing a counselor to support you in recovering from this.

Someone messing with your head really bad -- it does a number. :(

Galagirl
 
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I wonder if he's latching on to you for now because the other woman is out of the picture and then he'd be left with no supply person? If so, it makes sense to me that you don't feel secure. He's not a reliable guy, and he's here filling time with you till he lines up another.
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No, that's not the case. She wanted him to leave me so they could be together and he said he wouldn't. I never asked for him to choose, but she did and that was his choice. It was hard for him, too. I know it from her also, not only from him, so I guess that's the truth.

I thought I was on grieving process. I was angry, too. :(

I'm seeing a counselor for a while, but as we live in different countries I haven't spoken to her since I last posted here. I hope we'll talk this week...

I have to say that every time he asks what's wrong I bring things up, that he broke my rule, etc. and that's what he says I have to let go so things could work out again...

It always makes sense when I read it, when I read what you say, but still some part of me wants to believe that's possible with him. We used to have such a good time, be so good friends, be happy. I somehow wish this could come back - or still believe in it.

But, yeah, probably part of the process. :( I'll try to hold back more, and I'm going to my home country in 10 days and will be there for 10 days, that might do me good, too...

I also forgot to say that I told him I would need him to take more care of me and our relationship for now for things to work out, that I need to feel loved. For him to reach out more, tell me that he misses me when we see each other (if that's true), some reassurance. None of that happened because he said he doesn't do things only because I ask him to, that wouldn't be sincere because he's not like that. He would only be saying it because I want to. But I don't want him to make up things, just to speak out what he feels...he doesn't. Even though I need this reassurance. And then he also says it's because I'm giving him so much stress bringing these things always up - not being that robot. :(
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Re (from clalb):
"I couldn't let it go."
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Why not?

Re (from clalb):
"I told him I would need him to take more care of me and our relationship for now for things to work out, that I need to feel loved. For him to reach out more, tell me that he misses me when we see each other (if that's true), some reassurance. None of that happened because he said he doesn't do things only because I ask him to, that wouldn't be sincere because he's not like that."
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Sounds to me like he's making excuses.
 
I couldn't let it go because I felt I still want things to work out between us. I still want to be with him, be happy again with him...

It's not really excuses, he's always been like that... :(
 
I'm sorry to hear that things are still rough between you and A.

You don't sound happy with him. :(

What would it take for you to decide to end things? Have you considered what your hard boundaries are? If you are willing to forgive him breaking your golden rule, when will you draw the line?

IMHO, you deserve a better relationship than the one you're in. :(
 
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