Triad advice

[AsuraNinne]

So, I'll try to make this short:

Tl;dr: I have a husband who I love dearly, and we've been together for 1 1/2 years. Let's call him Ralph. He and his best friend, Zeph, have known each other for 15 years, and the three of us hang out together all the time ever since I started dating Ralph. We have a band together. So he's become one of my best friends, too, and I feel attracted to him, physically and emotionally. I feel like, if we could make this a triad, we could all be very happy. But I don't know how to start this conversation, neither of us have been in a poly relationship before. More details below.


Me (Ninne): F24, bi; I've never been in a poly relationship, and I've never been in love with two people, but now I think it's happening because we're together all the time (3-4 times a week), and our ideas for the future match well. I'm a bit insecure to talk to them about it, even with my husband, because... See their profiles below.

Zeph: M30, straight or bi? I don't know. He's the one that got me thinking all this, because for almost one year I've been feeling a kind of mutual interest between us. He gets a bit flustered when I draw him. He's very subtle, but there's one song he always plays about a woman having to choose one to be her "one and all". And so far he's suggested that we all should move together; that we are a power trio and should marry as a triad (said jokingly); that he would kiss Ralph and that they make out at times.
He says he isn't interested in romantic relationships and hasn't been in love for some years, so I'm thinking he could be an open end in our triad (if he wanted some time off, just as friends or if he wanted to date other people).

Ralph: M30, bi; he had a threesome once, MMF, with his then-boyfriend and a friend... ok, he had a crush on Zeph when they became friends 15 years ago, but didn't tell him then. He's the one that worries me the most. We've been honest with each other since the start of our relationship. We haven't directly talked about non-monogamy, but about how someone has to be special for him to have sex with (and I feel the same), and that I'm his only one, that he doesn't feel attracted to other people at all. Sometimes he's a bit insecure about losing me, so I don't know how to bring up my attraction towards his best friend.

Tl;dr 2: I feel that Zeph is as attracted to me as I am to him, so there is potential for a V, but I don't want Ralph to feel jealous. I would prefer a triad, but I'm not sure Zeph is bisexual (he never dated men as far as I know). Is it even worth trying, talking to my husband or did I mix things up and we should all just stay in this awesome friendship?

 

[River]

He says he isn't interested in romantic relationships and hasn't been in love for some years, so I'm thinking he could be an open end in our triad (if he wanted some time off, just as friends or if he wanted to date other people).

This part stood out for me, probably because I'm very curious about what actually distinguishes close, loving intimate friendships from "romantic" ones, and especially close, loving, intimate friendships which include various kinds of touch or even sex (e.g., FWB)....

Sometimes the distinction comes mostly down to whether or not the Relationship Escalator has been adopted as a model, I guess. But the more I discuss this sort of question in here and elsewhere the more vague and uncertain the lines seem to be. Or the more completely arbitrary and idiosyncratic they seem to be. So I'm wondering what's going on with you about such questions, AsuraNinne. Could you have a "non-romantic" but loving and also physically intimate relationship with Zeph? Would it be satisfying if it didn't include whatever you consider to be "romantic" attributes? Or would you be perpetually disappointed because he's not available for "romance"?

From my side, "romantic" must mean something like a blend of loving affection, mutual desire to be together a fair amount, physical intimacy, connection and bonding. You see how that overlaps quite a lot with what we call close, intimate friendships. Right?

You can fold sex in, but it doesn't necessarily make it "romantic," by some folks' definition, so gawd knows what anyone means by some of these words, right?

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle. I mean this kindly, ok?

I feel like, if we could make this a triad, we could all be very happy.

Are you not happy now?

I feel that Zeph is as attracted to me as I am to him, so there is potential for a V, but I don't want Ralph to feel jealous. I would prefer a triad, but I'm not sure Zeph is bisexual (he never dated men as far as I know). Is it even worth trying, talking to my husband or did I mix things up and we should all just stay in this awesome friendship?

I would leave it at the awesome friendship. Because you don't sound clear on what you are after, don't sound prepared for a triad, and not all 3 people sound like they even want this. To me you sound caught up in a fantasy.

A healthy V or triad will only happen if ALL 3 want that. You being attracted to Zeph? That's not all 3. That's just you having a crush. And one doesn't have to act on all the crushes they experience. It is possible to enjoy them and just do nothing.

He says he isn't interested in romantic relationships and hasn't been in love for some years, so I'm thinking he could be an open end in our triad (if he wanted some time off, just as friends or if he wanted to date other people).

I could be wrong. But to me? You seem to not hear what Zeph says because you are distracted by your crush on him and triad fantasy. The dude says he does NOT want to be in romantic relationships. So why would he want to be in a triad?

If his joking/flirting behavior bothers you because it eggs on the fantasy? Ask him to stop doing that around you.

We haven't directly talked about non-monogamy, but about how someone has to be special for him to have sex with (and I feel the same), and that I'm his only one, that he doesn't feel attracted to other people at all. Sometimes he's a bit insecure about losing me, so I don't know how to bring up my attraction towards his best friend.

You also don't seem to be hearing what Ralph says either. He only wants to be with you and he's not attracted to others. That doesn't sound like "Yay! Triad!" to me.

I would like to think Ralph would calmly say "No, hon. That is not for me" if you bring it up and not make a big deal about it.

But I've sometimes seen people who are fearful to "lose" their person agree to ill-fitting poly just to avoid a break up. Even when a break up would be healthier for all. Instead, they jump in and over time they grow resentments, or it implodes or whatever.

So if you have the stronger personality, you have to take care that you aren't leading Ralph into doing stuff he really doesn't want, but he wants to please you or he wants to not "lose you" and stuff like that. Because to me? That's not consent freely given. That is picking "I don't want this, and I don't want that, but at least with that I'm still with AsuraNinne" fearful thinking.

Sometimes potential hinges get SO excited to finally get to try a new model, they aren't looking at the health of the people. Part of the NRE blindness or something.

I feel that Zeph is as attracted to me as I am to him, so there is potential for a V, but I don't want Ralph to feel jealous. I would prefer a triad, but I'm not sure Zeph is bisexual (he never dated men as far as I know).

You? If you only want it to be a triad so Ralph won't get jealous? What happens if it becomes a triad and he is still jealous? Then what? Because you do not control other people's feelings.

But I don't know how to start this conversation, neither of us have been in a poly relationship before.

What do you really want to talk to your husband ABOUT? What's making you unhappy/uncomfortable?

• Help me. I have weird feelings I need to talk out.
  
• I'm turned on by triad fantasies. Want to play that game and fantasize with me?
  
• Hey, let's jump into a triad unprepared and proposition our band mate and friend Zeph.
  
• Something else?

I think before you do anything, you could spend some time thinking things out and getting clear on what you want.

How do you see this ending if it doesn't go how you want? Are you prepared? Even down to everyone single and no longer friends?

When you made your marriage vows... did they include non-monogamy? Or is that a vow deal breaker?

Are you finding that as a near newlywed, you didn't talk to your spouse about all the things that you needed to talk about? Is there some catch up to do?

Galagirl

 

[River]

GalaGirl makes some good points, AsuraNinne.

People are not all the same, of course. But some folks would have a very hard time even contemplating the sort of proposal you're contemplating making. It could even wreck a friendship. Or a marriage.

It would not do that in my world, but as I said, people are different. In my world it would all be open to discussion. It may not be like that in your world. It may even be explosively problematic to bring up for discussion.

You might want to talk with your friend and partner about open and poly relationships in a sort of broad, general way, to get a sense of what they think and feel about such arrangements. But without mentioning specific ideas about what might happen in your world.

But GalaGirl is being quite reasonable. I'm not at all sure she'd even recommend that much (?).

 

[GalaGirl]

Not a fan of that approach myself. Asking broadly like "hinting" or something. I prefer direct communication. But other people are not me.

AsuraNinne, if you choose to go there? Talking about open and poly relationships in a sort of broad, general way to get a sense of how they feel? Could stick to talking to husband only for now.

If one honors agreements in the order made? Marriage vows would need renegotiating or disbanding before making any new triad-y agreements.

Husband could get upset/angry/insecure if you start talking to friend for feelers about it before you even talk to husband. No need to add extra problems like that because Ralph is mad you jumped the gun.

Galagirl

 

[River]

Not a fan of that approach myself. Asking broadly like "hinting" or something. I prefer direct communication. But other people are not me.

If you choose to go there? Talking about open and poly relationships in a sort of broad, general way to get a sense of how they feel? Could stick to talking to husband only for now.

If one honors agreements in the order made? Marriage vows would need renegotiating or disbanding before making any new triad-y agreements.

Husband could get upset/angry/insecure if you start talking to friend for feelers about it before you even talk to husband. No need to add extra problems like that.

Galagirl

Pretty sound feedback, that! I can't disagree.

Husband could get upset/angry/insecure if you start talking to friend for feelers about it before you even talk to husband. No need to add extra problems like that.

And he may well start feeling upset/angry/insecure by any mention of non-monogamy whatsoever. It happens!


I said "I can't disagree". Some part of me wants to disagree, because I really don't like the social norm which suggests that "real love is necessarily monogamous". But I do agree that people should keep their vows and promises, generally. Unless doing so will cause unending misery, in which case something has to give.

I could never promise exclusivity in love or sex (or touch, or affection) to anyone. I'd not be happy in such an arrangement and agreement.

Some people are really "cut out" for monogamy and others aren't. It's too bad that our culture has it as an expected "default setting" for "real relationships".

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Ninne,

If you decide to talk to Zeph and Ralph about poly, perhaps the first step would be to tell Ralph that you are interested in poly. Then ask him how he feels about that, but that step might take awhile because he might not want to talk about it at first. Then, if he feels okay about poly, tell him that you have feelings for Zeph, but that you haven't talked to Zeph about that and you don't know whether Zeph has feelings for you. Then depending on how Ralph feels about that, ask him if he thinks you should talk to Zeph. But be very cautious about all this, one little step at a time with space in between each pair of steps. Of course there is also the possibility that you should do none of the steps, or at least not yet or not right now. Zeph and Ralph have both said monogamous things, although that could be because poly is a radical new idea.

If you're going to try for poly, I would aim for a V first, then maybe aim for a triad later. A triad tends to be more complicated than a V, that's why I suggest that. And of course, you must confirm that Zeph is bi before trying for a triad. Not that a triad doesn't sound like a wonderful thing for the three of you, it does. But the reality would first have to line up with the fantasy. I hope things do work out for you as you would like.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[AsuraNinne]

Wow, thanks for the sound advice, everyone!

I feel like I should clarify some things. First, about me and Ralph, we're not legally married, no vows or anything other than what we tell each other, "we're a team and we'll stay together through any hardship". We're not religious, so if we actually get married it'll be for the benefits behind it. But socially, we do refer to each other as "husband" and "wife". So I'm married with Ralph because it's Ralph, not because I dreamed of being a married woman. I usually go with the flow.

Second, about Zeph and relationships: he's been in two romantic relationships before, and some long-term FWB, but it didn't work out for him because "people in relationships want the presence of the other individual at all times, and become controlling" (in his own words), and then I said Ralph and I are not like that, he agreed and said we were an exception. He doesn't talk much about his love life, I know that he got frustrated with relationships but he still seeks women in dating apps because, well, people have needs.

This part stood out for me, probably because I'm very curious about what actually distinguishes close, loving intimate friendships from "romantic" ones, and especially close, loving, intimate friendships which include various kinds of touch or even sex (e.g., FWB)....

What do you really want to talk to your husband ABOUT? What's making you unhappy/uncomfortable?

• Help me. I have weird feelings I need to talk out.
  
• I'm turned on by triad fantasies. Want to play that game and fantasize with me?
  
• Hey, let's jump into a triad unprepared and proposition our band mate and friend Zeph.
  
• Something else?

I think before you do anything, you could spend some time thinking things out and getting clear on what you want.

How do you see this ending if it doesn't go how you want? Are you prepared? Even down to everyone single and no longer friends?

You all brought really good points. River, GalaGirl, yes I am happy with the friendship we've got going. Maybe the point I need to think clearly is - I have weird feelings. Zeph welcomed me as if we'd always known each other. He insisted for me to be part of the band, and Ralph says their friendship got better after I came along, and that we complement each other as friends. Sometimes we meet without Ralph and we have a great conversation too. But all these thoughts (I don't remember when they started), and maybe other stuff in my life have got me overthinking my actions, so when me and Zeph are talking and Ralph is a bit distant, looking at his phone, I feel guilty even though I'm not doing anything and he's not upset because of us, but because of work or some other stuff.

I also feel like Zeph admires our relationship and would appreciate something like that to himself, a relationship that isn't demanding. Again, I'm happy with being just friends with Zeph, but at the same time I feel this untold barrier between us, never past the fist bump (or seeing each other in swimwear). I think he's a great person and has done many thing for us and especially for Ralph. I'm fascinated by him and I'd love to be closer to him, to give him the love, affection (and intimacy) I feel he deserves, but I guess I'm trying to speed up something that takes time, and maybe that's why I thought being in a relationship with him would strengthen and narrow our bonds. I'm being selfish here. I can't control (or even be sure of) his feelings, neither Ralph's.

Anyway, I'll hold on on talking to Ralph about this right now, because coincidentally yesterday, he told me: "You and Zeph are my family. You're the people I love the most - in different ways - Zeph is almost like a brother. We should all live together in the future, he'd have his own house next to ours, but let's try to remain close to each other." So it is. If he feels any different in the future, I'm sure he'll tell me.

I'll keep showing my affection for them the way I've always done: by talking, writing, drawing and playing. And cooking. Thanks for the help and the sincerity, everyone!

 

[kdt26417]

Sounds like you have the right idea of how to proceed for the moment, that is good to hear. Keep us updated as your situation evolves, and we will respond with updated feedback and advice. Good luck!

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm fascinated by him and I'd love to be closer to him, to give him the love, affection (and intimacy) I feel he deserves, but I guess I'm trying to speed up something that takes time, and maybe that's why I thought being in a relationship with him would strengthen and narrow our bonds. I'm being selfish here. I can't control (or even be sure of) his feelings, neither Ralph's.

I don't think you are selfish. Just maybe getting carried away a bit with crush feelings.

Enjoy the crush, admire from afar, but don't do anything. If you are feeling a bit lovesick, be kind to yourself. Having some feelings is not a crime. You don't have to call yourself names like "selfish."

Do you think you feel guilty because you are trying to rush something into happening? That is behavior. And if you ARE trying to rush something, then yes. You are doing that and yes prob a good idea to cut it out.

I think it is a good idea to do nothing.

Either this crush thing will blow over (and for me they usually take about a year or so to die out when I crush on my friends). Or new information will come to light.

I know that if I work closely and intensely with someone, and I find them kinda cute, over the course of the project I'm gonna start crushing hard. And I have -- in all kinds of committee work. And I know once the project is done the crush thing will fade down.

So all this togetherness with the band and all that? Might be something akin to that.

I also feel like Zeph admires our relationship and would appreciate something like that to himself, a relationship that isn't demanding.

Possibly. But not necessarily with you.

Again, I'm happy with being just friends with Zeph, but at the same time I feel this untold barrier between us, never past the fist bump (or seeing each other in swimwear).

What you call a "barrier" I call "boundaries." My friends aren't gonna get much more than that even if I have a one-sided crush on them.

I'm willing to hug my friends, but I don't kiss or cuddle them. I know other people draw the "friend touching line" in other places, but for me? I prefer mine where it is.

It prevents me from seeing more than there actually is there. And it helps me have "manageable size" crushes that I can just sit on. If I'm not adding fuel to the fire, I'm not going to covet and blow crushes up bigger than what they are. YKWIM?

Galagirl

 

[River]

It prevents me from seeing more than there actually is there. And it helps me have "manageable size" crushes that I can just sit on. If I'm not adding fuel to the fire, I'm not going to covet and blow crushes up bigger than what they are. YKWIM?

Galagirl

The question isn't addressed to me. But since I'm sitting at this table, I'll have to say in passing that, for me, cuddling can be something we do with fully platonic, but loving, friends. I can't even begin to express the gratitude toward the universe I have for having discovered deeply loving but platonic cuddling. Cuddling, for me, doesn't have any necessary relationship to sex. Or 'romance'.

Many people who went bowling forty years ago would drink beer and smoke cigarettes while bowling, and to bowl without beer and cigarettes would have seemed very peculiar, indeed. But, while I've not bowled in a very long while, I'd not feel it necessary to smoke and drink beer while doing so. Bowling can be fun without cigarettes or beer; and cuddling can be delicious without ... well, you know.

But I'm weird about cuddling. I'll cuddle with almost any sweet, kind, loving person with whom I have established trust and some connection. In my weird little world, platonic friends would frequently sleep in one another's arms, and cuddle while watching movies. Doing so would be completely normal, if not almost expected.

I can have wonderful, very satisfying platonic friendships with folks who I don't cuddle with. But I'd not want to go very long without having at least one platonic cuddly friend. Unfortunately, I don't even have one of these at the moment. It feels... unnatural.

 

[AsuraNinne]

Short update: Ralph remembered the thing Zeph said about the three of us getting married in a castle in order to record a music video ("we'll have an unconventional, fluid relationship", that's how Zeph put it), and Ralph said "OK, but only if he doesn't do things just with you, but with me too. If I have to share you with him, you'll have to share me with him." All of this was said as a joke, but I believe that's Ralph's actual point of view.

Do you think you feel guilty because you are trying to rush something into happening? That is behavior. And if you ARE trying to rush something, then yes. You are doing that and yes prob a good idea to cut it out.

Hmm, I wouldn't say that's the reason... I feel guilty because sometimes I feel I give too much attention to Zeph, or that I mention him a lot when talking to Ralph, or just how much I miss him in general. I hold back on doing these things but I'm sometimes afraid of it becoming obvious. Now the rushing makes me feel insecure around Ralph and Zeph, but I've already cut it off, haven't been mentioning relationships or love with them because I don't want to know their opinion on this at the moment. I prefer waiting and not doing anything.

Either this crush thing will blow over (and for me they usually take about a year or so to die out when I crush on my friends). Or new information will come to light.

I know that if I work closely and intensely with someone, and I find them kinda cute, over the course of the project I'm gonna start crushing hard. And I have -- in all kinds of committee work. And I know once the project is done the crush thing will fade down.

So all this togetherness with the band and all that? Might be something akin to that.

Probably. My crush on Zeph started somewhere around October 2017, when Ralph told me that he thought Zeph had never gotten over his first girlfriend (who is also called "Ninne"). I wanted to understand him better but back then he was too much of a mystery to me. Then I started paying more attention to his personality and crushing on him. I fought back against this, as I can see in my personal journal where my feelings start showing in April 2018.

Recently, on my birthday, Zeph was the first person to wish me a happy birthday and the only one to give me a present so far. A book by his favorite philosopher. I didn't mention this fact to anyone, but Ralph has probably noticed it. Of course it doesn't mean anything more than "he's a good and considerate friend", but it still stirs something in me. We hugged and it didn't feel awkward at all, so that's something I wish we did more frequently. Anyway, like I said I don't want to rush things so I know we'll get closer with time. I've only known him for a year and a half after all.

What you call a "barrier" I call "boundaries." My friends aren't gonna get much more than that even if I have a one-sided crush on them.

I'm willing to hug my friends, but I don't kiss or cuddle them. I know other people draw the "friend touching line" in other places, but for me? I prefer mine where it is.

It prevents me from seeing more than there actually is there. And it helps me have "manageable size" crushes that I can just sit on. If I'm not adding fuel to the fire, I'm not going to covet and blow crushes up bigger than what they are. YKWIM?

Galagirl

I understand what you mean, I agree that there must be a line if we have a crush and we don't want it to grow. At the same time, I agree with @River and I wish cuddling with friends was something natural so that neither of us would make a big deal out of it, but we would still enjoy the closeness to another human being. But I haven't had any experience like that to see how well it works. Just with my ex, even when I didn't feel any romantic love towards him anymore, I still felt good cuddling with him.

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"Ralph remembered the thing Zeph said about the three of us getting married in a castle in order to record a music video ('We'll have an unconventional, fluid relationship,' that's how Zeph put it), and Ralph said 'Okay, but only if he doesn't do things just with you, but with me too. If I have to share you with him, you'll have to share me with him.' All of this was said as a joke, but I believe that's Ralph's actual point of view."

Sounds like there's a real chance that Ralph could be okay with things, eventually. I think the thing to do here is to go slow, don't try to rush anything, just let things grow naturally. Zeph will let you know when he is ready for more affection, and Ralph will let you know when he is okay with that.

 

[Magdlyn]

I've had intense crushes on my ex husband's band mates. I haven't actually been in the bands, but I am a big ol groupie so I'd often be in the room during practices or jam sessions, maybe singing or playing percussion, or just listening, because I love music. And I love watching hot guys sing and play.

There's something about music that is so emotional and sexy.

I remember one crush ages ago. I was staring at my crush so hard while they were playing out at a bar... He actually lost track of where he was in the song, because he noticed me staring at him so hard.

But in more recent years, this happened. My ex h and I were living in a house with our kids. He had a band, they'd have practices once a week at our house. Across the street I noticed this super cute guy had seemingly moved back in with his mother. One day we had a big snow storm and he and I were both digging out our cars, and got to talking, like New Englanders do after a storm, and I said I'd noticed the Phish sticker on his car yada yada.

Before you knew it, he came over with his bass, my ex brought out his guitar and they were jamming like they'd been playing together for years.

Problem, this guy was so cute, so nice, younger and fitter and hipper than my ex. I fell SO hard. He came over at least once a week, to jam with the band or just one on one with my ex. I needed to be near him. It was ridiculous.

Sometimes when he hung up his coat I'd secretly go and smell the collar.

My ex and I weren't poly at the time. We'd tried it and failed and gone back to mono. My ex was also very jealous and noticed my crush...hell, he'd imagine I had crushes even when I didn't. But I always denied it to spare my ex's feelings, because that's how I was at the time. And to spare my own pain, because he'd sort of emotionally torture me if I got a crush.

So, this guy, let's call him Frank. He was about 15 years younger than me, and single. I knew he liked me. He was always so nice and friendly to me. Of course, he was trying to date; he wanted a serious gf or wife. My crush never abated because he was always around, always being so cute and charming and in some ways, more caring towards me than my own husband. But eventually Frank met a woman. Oddly she was about 5 or 7 years older than him. Which made it even harder because then I thought, Oh he likes older women!

Funny story, at one point he told me when he was dating around he was wearing a cologne with male pheromones in it! That partly explained my extreme crush and lust. And my need to smell his coat collar! Jesus. Amp up your pheromones and make this even worse! lol

Anyway, sheesh, it was torture. And my crush didn't even start to abate until he got married and he and his wife moved to another state about 45 minutes away. He got busy working and had less time for jamming. So... I dunno if your crush will subside like Gala says hers do. You're with this guy a LOT. There is all kinds of innuendo, coming from both guys! "Let's get married in a castle. I want to do things to you and to him." etc.

I have no advice, but it sounds all so very swoony and tempting and wrong and lustful and unspoken and and and...

Trouble. Maybe. Or maybe potentially could become something very hot and an actual triad! Musicians and artists can be very open-minded. Maybe there's potential for a actual organic natural triad, with enough freedom to satisfy Zeph, and not tie him down. It could all end in disaster and everyone going their separate ways. Or it could be something beautiful! You don't know unless you speak. But do do more poly research first. Triads are a very common fantasy but extremely hard to manage.