Unaware of how intimate touch.. Suggestions?

Monogamish1

New member
My partner seems to be unaware of the sexually suggestiveness or highly intimate level of touch he gives to others.

A few examples:
Hugging my mother and rubbing his cheek against hers.
Putting his arm around a young female tenant I rent a room to and stroking her neck gently with.
Hugging with slow caresses on the back possibly accompanied by audible sighs or "mmmm"

In many instances he recipient is highly uncomfortable, and as a person observing, I am highly uncomfortable as well. For the most part, he claims to be unaware of what he has done, or is unaware the actions can be interpreted as sexual in nature.

Has anyone had experience, either themselves or with a loved one?
Suggestions to help him increase his awareness of how touch can be inappropriate or misinterpreted?
 
My partner seems to be unaware of the sexually suggestiveness or highly intimate level of touch he gives to others.

A few examples:
Hugging my mother and rubbing his cheek against hers.
Putting his arm around a young female tenant I rent a room to and stroking her neck gently with.
Hugging with slow caresses on the back possibly accompanied by audible sighs or "mmmm"

In many instances he recipient is highly uncomfortable, and as a person observing, I am highly uncomfortable as well. For the most part, he claims to be unaware of what he has done, or is unaware the actions can be interpreted as sexual in nature.

Has anyone had experience, either themselves or with a loved one?
Suggestions to help him increase his awareness of how touch can be inappropriate or misinterpreted?

The people that are uncomfortable have to say something to him directly or it may come across like you are simply jealous. I am assuming that this is something that they have said to you and you know for sure that his conduct makes people uncomfortable and you aren't simply guessing.
 
Some people are just very happy to touch others, very often. And some people don't like that very much at all. I would suggest that you may ask him to try to guess which kind of person he deals with and act accordingly. I am not famous in any way for innapropriately touching others, but I have hugged people and made them very uncomfortable. Some are able to say "please no hugs", with others you just have to be aware.

Perhaps a simple: "is it ok if I hug you?" would be fine.

But it is really your job to intervene? I am not sure.
 
This sort of reminds me of a family member of mine who has Aspergers. In his case, he is genuinely unaware of the social appropriateness of some of his behaviours, and has had to be explicitly taught certain things. Since he doesn't intend them himself, it's not a big deal to call him out on it. He is neither embarrassed nor offended, and (usually!) neither is the person he is inflicting unwanted attention on once they realise the situation. But make no mistakes about it - if the attention is unwanted, then it's an issue, even if the person is not strong enough or confident enough to say 'dude, WTF are you doing?'. In fact, in doing this to people like your mum he is actually making it really hard for her to call him on it, because of the social taboo behind it. If the other person does not reciprocate or initiate in kind, then I think it's very fair to assume that this is one way attention that's not wanted. So in my opinion, I would intervene. It's up to you if you do that privately or publicly. If I were in your shoes? Public every time. Give the other person a chance to agree/disagree with you about what their level of comfort actually is.

It's fine to be a cuddly person. But you need to be aware of other people's boundaries and their abilities to enforce them as well. Cuddly people I know in real life ASK before initiating any kind of intimate touching. They have the self-awareness and social-awareness to know they are to the extreme of a particular spectrum, and wouldn't want to make people uncomfortable. If he's lacking self or social awareness, then that's not a good thing.
 
Does he understand that not everyone likes or enjoys that level of physical touch? Does he understand that what might be fine with someone he knows well (if they agree) is not appropriate with someone he doesn't know well? Does he get the idea of personal space? Does he get boundaries and consent?

If the answer is 'no' or 'maybe?' to any of these questions, Monogamish1, then start there. And if he can't quite wrap his head around it, then he still needs to act as if he did 'get' it. There are lots of things I don't quite get myself but I accept as true anyway. (Like how much people love avocado?! Why?)

One simple way for him to reduce his creep factor - and he does come across as someone I'd avoid like the plague even if he is otherwise a decent sort - is to always ask if someone would like to be touched. (And then wait for a response and respect that response. And how important it is to not take any response personally. A 'yes' doesn't mean they think he is awesome and he can touch them any way he wants. A 'no' doesn't mean they think he is the dregs of the universe.) 'Would you like a hug?' 'Can I rub your back?' Yes, this can be awkward but there is no social cost to it and it might really help his 'standing' in your circle of friends and family.

The last thing I'd mention to him is the social cost to yourself and to him. If he is not noticing the impact of his actions, point them out. If someone is avoiding him, point out that's a consequence of his behavior. If he is making someone uncomfortable, point out their body language and explain it to him. And that it is his job to fix the behavior even if he can't get why it's a big deal.

Also, while his behavior might be tolerated by most as harmless and with no ill intent, he is probably being labeled as what my younger friends call 'That Guy'. This is the term they use for people (men or women) whose inappropriate behavior (in whatever way) eventually gets them pushed out of the social group. They are invited to less and less social gatherings, people are not so interested in drinks after work or having play dates with their kids together. And the thing about being 'That Guy' who has a partner is that the partner is cut out too. People have no problem with him or her, but their partner is a pain in the ass and, while they feel bad, the partner gets ostracized too. This might be happening to you. If it is, point that out. He needs to know.

There are people out there who use 'not knowing' or 'not understanding' as the excuse for continued bad behavior. I assume your partner is not one of them but I have met people who claim their 'ignorance' or 'inability' to follow social norms makes their behavior ok. 'That's how they are.' It's really a form of very sophisticated manipulation and can be the hallmark of a predator. Your partner does not want to get labeled as a predator using ignorance as his access point. This is how he could be perceived, even if this is not accurate.

Finally, while people who do not want to be touched in that manner or at all by your partner should speak up, that is actually not encouraged by mainstream society. To be polite, one is expected to put up with 'harmless' touching, especially if female. It's not surprising most women have said nothing or tried to convey to him by body language that it was not wanted - which sounds like he completely ignores or misses. (Have a talk with him about how touch is impacted by gender norms.)

As someone who does not enjoy hugging people I have just meet - and living in a place where that is common - it gets bloody exhausting constantly having to stop someone else hugging me. And it's awkward, stops all conversations and basically I risk looking like an asshole. I'm willing to do it (most of the time) because I find hugging or otherwise touching strangers beyond a handshake to be incredibly intrusive. But it's tiring. So while people should tell him, they generally aren't going to. Do your partner a solid and start trying to educate him on these issues. If he can learn, it will be incredibly positive for him (and you too, ultimately).

If your partner wants an outside opinion on how his behavior may be impacting others, and you and him, I'm willing to talk with him via PM here.
 
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In many instances he recipient is highly uncomfortable, and as a person observing, I am highly uncomfortable as well. For the most part, he claims to be unaware of what he has done, or is unaware the actions can be interpreted as sexual in nature.

Since you seem to have brought it up a few times... does he STOP doing this? Or just keeps on doing it and use this "unaware" thing as excuse to continue his objectionable behavior?

In many instances he recipient is highly uncomfortable, and as a person observing, I am highly uncomfortable as well.

When it happens, when you see it -- call him out. "Stop touching creepy like that. Look at the person's face -- they are not comfortable. Moreover I am not comfortable. Please refrain from overfamiliar touching like that."

Knowing they have your support may help some of these people speak up too and say something like "I agree. I do not like it! Stop." because some (like your relatives) may not be saying anything from fear of upsetting YOU.

Galagirl
 
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Hi Monogamish1,

I think you should instruct your partner to do less touching in general. Also I agree with the idea of correcting him out loud right when you see him do something inappropriate.

If he has a sexual relationship with someone, that's obviously different (although even then they might not be comfortable with him fondling them out in public view). But platonic contacts shouldn't be handled so much.

Don't know if that helps but that's my take on it.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Thanks for replies

Since I posted, I've been going over my journal and noticed a trend, not just in touch but in words and actions. Many of my friends avoid socializing with me when the partner is around, they refer to him as a Creeper. Even after being told that his sexual innuendo and leering glances and stares are unwelcome - by them and by me, he has repeated it.
I just also learned from his wife that he was banned for period from her workplace for the way he touched and spoke to her coworkers.

But the cake came today when I discovered that prior to my son and his girlfriend moving out he had been secretly videotaping her in the toilet and shower. He denied it when confronted, even after promising never to lie to me again.
I offered two options ... give me back my key and leave until I feel comfortable, and schedule himself immediately for psychological evaluation with follow through of suggested actions... or I would call the police and turn over copies of the videos he made.

Because his son's girlfriend is temporarily living in his other home with his wife and son, I warned her to ensure the girl's privacy. At his wife's request, For the time being he is not welcome at that home either.

He has packed what he needs for the immediate future and made an appointment for this week. I hope the psychologist is able to address all his issues.

Tomorrow I will call to schedule some sessions for myself to handle the grief and loss I am dealing with. For the first time in a long time, I wish I had another partner to comfort me.
 
God, that's awful. Now I wish it *was* "just" some inappropriate touching. :(
 
Ugh.

I was afraid of that.

Good for you on standing firm and taking back your key. You may want to have the locks changed in case he made copies.

Ugh. I am so sorry!

hugs
Galagirl
 
I echo GG's advice about changing the locks. But I would be wary of him voluntarily signing himself up for treatment. He's showing all the signs of being a predator, and whilst I'm not going to assume he has committed previous crimes (filming someone naked without their consent is a crime - be clear on that in your own mind), and I'm not assuming that professional interventions won't work, what I am less sure about is whether he won't just lie to you about seeing someone. As hard as it might be, I feel like the safest course of action for all involved would be to consult with a lawyer and take advice on filing a complaint with the police, to start a paper trail at least. I don't know if they have things like supervision orders where you are, or legislation where a court can compel an offender to seek psychological treatment, but I think you need to at least consider going through official channels on this. If in 5, 10, 15 years time, when he's broken off all contact with you, his behaviours escalate and he commits a serious crime, you would feel terrible, no?
 
Wow. I never imagined this. Honestly, and I can appreciate how hard this is, but I think the right thing to do here would be to speak to the victim(s), namely the woman he taped, with the view of informing the police. If she does not consent to informing the police, you're in a sticky situation because as someone as says, this seems to be a predator who is gradually escalating the nature of his crimes. I think I'd still offer the tapes as evidence, but I'd make sure I told the police that the victim isn't consenting to press charges. This is too serious to tread softly.
 
Egad! How did you find out???

Perhaps you should consider hiring someone to "sniff" both homes to detect any electronic devices - some of those cameras can transmit their recordings through the airwaves (not sure if radio, satellite, or some other technology) and so he might still be taping!

Personally, if it were me in your shoes, there would be no second chance for him. What he did was abominable.
 
*shudder* How disgusting! My sympathies.
 
Ugh I am so sorry. That is horrible. Good job standing up for yourself. I still feel you should report to the police anyway. What he has done is illegal and he may do this again.

Hugs for your grief and loss, but at least you know now and not down the road further...ugh! so scary.
 
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