Unbinding the briars of my joys & desires

WarMan, FWIW, you express yourself exceedingly well here. I enjoy reading your blog because your posts are insightful, intelligent, humble, and well-written. Eloquent and sometimes poetic, even! So, I don't think communication is a problem for you, in general. However, I think certain circumstances do cause you to worry or fret, and that gets in the way of your communicating, perhaps. I suspect it is when something important to you seems to be at stake (in your perception, whether consciously or subconsciously), or there's something you are afraid of. So you become self-conscious and trip yourself up, saying things unclearly or not how you intended...

What happens when we are self-conscious about anything -- meaning we are monitoring ourselves and worrying about ourselves (our image, our lovability, of being understood, among a gazillion other possibilities)... it takes us out of the moment and into our heads. So, instead of being present, breathing, looking into Bluebird's eyes, and saying what you need to say, your focus is on you, as in trying to be careful with your words, or trying to be clear, or what-have-you... the difference between: 1.) being clear and 2.) trying to be clear (or trying to be anything else, for that matter)... is that the first is actually communicating to the person in front of them while the second is filtering the communications through an internal dialogue about how you're doing - and that is not being present. That is being lost a little in your head, which can create mischief and misunderstanding. And if both of you have an agenda, neither one of you is communicating effectively.

The good thing is, once we are aware that we've been gone (into our heads, in our thoughts, planning what to say, wondering how it will be received, figuring out if it's the right time, and so on), we're already back. So, I would say, a good thing to do before you want to talk to someone is to get present. Take a breath, feel your feet on the floor, look at what or who is in front of you, and express yourself.

HTH!
 
WarMan, FWIW, you express yourself exceedingly well here. I enjoy reading your blog because your posts are insightful, intelligent, humble, and well-written. Eloquent and sometimes poetic, even! So, I don't think communication is a problem for you, in general. However, I think certain circumstances do cause you to worry or fret, and that gets in the way of your communicating, perhaps. I suspect it is when something important to you seems to be at stake (in your perception, whether consciously or subconsciously), or there's something you are afraid of. So you become self-conscious and trip yourself up, saying things unclearly or not how you intended...
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I don't want to take over his space here, but I have to say that I agree with this. WarMan usually does an excellent job at communicating, and he naturally - and deliberately - does a lot of the restating/reframing that breathemusic suggests. He does get himself worked up sometimes and that is when we run into issues, it seems. If I don't respond with comfort immediately, because I am trying to work out the root of an issue, then he gets desperate. He begins to grasp at partial statements and gets off track. If I am distracted at trying to solve, rather than listen, things don't go well. A lot of times he just wants to be heard, and I would do well to remember that.

That said, in this instance, I heard his distress and responded many times with soothing words but he wasn't hearing me; it was late and he was upset. I was exhausted and frustrated that I couldn't just enjoy the sexual afterglow, so, yeah, problems.

MightyMax - I feel like I am saturated, but that is different than overwhelmed. I agree that it isn't an ideal, and I do worry that at some point there is going to be an issue I can't solve. I have all 3 of my guys reading "More Than Two" in the hopes it will help improve, well, everything. Truly though, if WarMan wishes to be a full primary partner, there will be lots of changes coming down the line, like cohabitation, that will ease some of the logistical difficulties I sometimes need to work out, and allow him to be present in my life on a daily basis. Right now I would say his desire for that - the everyday interactions - is what he craves the most. Interestingly enough, I believe my husband PunkRock's main challenge right now is when he loses time due to me being over at WarMan's house. When he can't kiss me goodnight, that's when he feels a lack. All of them being under one roof would solve both of these issues. That said, PunkRock seems to be doing better lately. Which is good news because moving in together is half a year away, at least.

I hear you, however. If things don't work out with WarMan for any reason, I am not apt or at all eager to seek out a third primary. I believe WarMan is worth the struggle now though. A different guy - I would have already bailed. He is wonderful.
 
nycindie said:
What happens when we are self-conscious about anything -- meaning we are monitoring ourselves and worrying about ourselves (our image, our lovability, of being understood, among a gazillion other possibilities)... it takes us out of the moment and into our heads. So, instead of being present, breathing, looking into Bluebird's eyes, and saying what you need to say, your focus is on you, as in trying to be careful with your words, or trying to be clear, or what-have-you... the difference between: 1.) being clear and 2.) trying to be clear (or trying to be anything else, for that matter)... is that the first is actually communicating to the person in front of them while the second is filtering the communications through an internal dialogue about how you're doing - and that is not being present. That is being lost a little in your head, which can create mischief and misunderstanding. And if both of you have an agenda, neither one of you is communicating effectively.

The good thing is, once we are aware that we've been gone (into our heads, in our thoughts, planning what to say, wondering how it will be received, figuring out if it's the right time, and so on), we're already back. So, I would say, a good thing to do before you want to talk to someone is to get present. Take a breath, feel your feet on the floor, look at what or who is in front of you, and express yourself.

HTH!
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Wow, I need to internalize this; read it and read it again. Thanks for this, NYCindie.
 
Hey everyone. These are great responses. Thank you all so much. I want to reply to some in depth, but right now I'm with my kids and need to focus on them. As soon as I can steal some time though I will definitely reply. Thank you all so much for the support.
 
Just want to say I am pulling for you, WarMan, you and Bluebird and Monkey and BB's others. It's complicated situation, but I've seen worse. I know you'll work it out!
 
WarMan, we share a lot of similarities. When you get it all figured out, please let me know how to do it ;)
 
breathemusic said:
If you're open to suggestions , I recommend ...
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I'm always ready to hear suggestions. Thank you for these. I try to do something similar to this, but I think following it more closely would be beneficial. The real problem comes when I'm worked up already BEFORE we start talking. I need to work on that.
 
MightyMax said:
The other thing is about saturation. Personally, from reading these blogs, your partner does saturated, to me anyway. I am very surprised that you see each other as much as you do, how the hell does she fit it all in?!
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Bluebird is Saturated, but it seems like that's her preferred state of being. I do worry about it however. Bluebird has said to me that if we broke up she would not try for another primary partner. That makes me kind of sad, I feel a bit like a mistake. But, she says that I am unique and special enough to make it worth the effort. Which feels good, but it does make me worry. I've offered to step back if that is what she needs. I don't want to be just a FWB with her, but if that's what she needs to be happy, I would do it. I don't offer that anymore however, as she's told me multiple times that she doesn't want that. I don't want her to think I'm asking because I'm hoping she will say yes.

So, yes, she's Saturated, but it doesn't appear that she's over Saturated.
 
nycindie said:
WarMan, FWIW, you express yourself exceedingly well here. I enjoy reading your blog because your posts are insightful, intelligent, humble, and well-written. Eloquent and sometimes poetic, even!
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,

Aww! Thanks! I just write stream of thought, I'm glad it's pleasing.

nycindie said:
I don't think communication is a problem for you, in general. However, I think certain circumstances do cause you to worry or fret, and that gets in the way of your communicating,
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.

Sadly, this is true. Growing up my examples for communication were all emotional, not calm or rational. I've had to fumble my way towards a better way. You hit the nail on the head, when I get emotional and lose my cool it starts to break down. :( I'm working on it...

nycindie said:
I suspect it is when something important to you seems to be at stake (in your perception, whether consciously or subconsciously), or there's something you are afraid of. So you become self-conscious and trip yourself up, saying things unclearly or not how you intended...
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Yes. This. What really sucks is that as I et upset about the thing I care about, I make it worse.

nycindie said:
What happens when we are self-conscious about anything -- meaning we are monitoring ourselveés and worrying about ourselves (our image, our lovability, of being understood, among a gazillion other possibilities)... it takes us out of the moment and into our heads. So, instead of being present, breathing, looking into Bluebird's eyes, and saying what you need to say, your focus is on you, as in trying to be careful with your words, or trying to be clear, or what-have-you... the difference between: 1.) being clear and 2.) trying to be clear (or trying to be anything else, for that matter)... is that the first is actually communicating to the person in front of them while the second is filtering the communications through an internal dialogue about how you're doing - and that is not being present. That is being lost a little in your head, which can create mischief and misunderstanding. And if both of you have an agenda, neither one of you is communicating effectively.

The good thing is, once we are aware that we've been gone (into our heads, in our thoughts, planning what to say, wondering how it will be received, figuring out if it's the right time, and so on), we're already back. So, I would say, a good thing to do before you want to talk to someone is to get present. Take a breath, feel your feet on the floor, look at what or who is in front of you, and express yourself.

HTH!
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This is really great stuff. Especially the part about getting lost in an internal dialog during an argument. I do that all the time! I'll try to keep it present next time. Clearing my mind off other thoughts has always been a challenge for me. Awareness meditation maybe?
 
Maybe taking out some time to bullet point the things you want to talk about would help you organize your own thought processes, realize the things that you're talking about over and over again, and help you stick to the most pressing issues without getting lost in the weeds?

Bluebird has said to me that if we broke up she would not try for another primary partner. That makes me kind of sad, I feel a bit like a mistake. But, she says that I am unique and special enough to make it worth the effort.
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Dude, take yes for an answer. If she says you're not a mistake, trying to convince her that you are a mistake seems kind of foolish.

Do you think she's being dishonest? (I don't think you are.) Don't you trust her to know what is best for her? To make good decisions about her own heart? You don't get to decide how much of her effort you're worth. You don't get to decide how special you are to her. Take her statement at face value, accept that you ARE special and ARE worth it, and go from there.

... easier said than done, I know. But the other way is not modest, it's paternalistic. And it's the product of negative-self-image vultures that don't necessarily reflect reality.
 
Agreeing with Autumn...

You aren't a mistake. You're a fortunate surprise. Bluebird didn't *expect* to find a third man she wanted to bring so deeply into her life, but that doesn't mean she wasn't happy to find you. She just didn't know she wanted or needed you until you were there, and she's smart enough to know a good thing when she sees it and not pass it up solely because she didn't expect it.
 
WarMan said:
nycindie said:
What happens when we are self-conscious about anything -- meaning we are monitoring ourselves and worrying about ourselves (our image, our lovability, of being understood, among a gazillion other possibilities)... it takes us out of the moment and into our heads. So, instead of being present, breathing, looking into Bluebird's eyes, and saying what you need to say, your focus is on you, as in trying to be careful with your words, or trying to be clear, or what-have-you... the difference between: 1.) being clear and 2.) trying to be clear (or trying to be anything else, for that matter)... is that the first is actually communicating to the person in front of them while the second is filtering the communications through an internal dialogue about how you're doing - and that is not being present. That is being lost a little in your head, which can create mischief and misunderstanding. And if both of you have an agenda, neither one of you is communicating effectively.

The good thing is, once we are aware that we've been gone (into our heads, in our thoughts, planning what to say, wondering how it will be received, figuring out if it's the right time, and so on), we're already back. So, I would say, a good thing to do before you want to talk to someone is to get present. Take a breath, feel your feet on the floor, look at what or who is in front of you, and express yourself.
Click to expand...

This is really great stuff. Especially the part about getting lost in an internal dialog during an argument. I do that all the time! I'll try to keep it present next time. Clearing my mind off other thoughts has always been a challenge for me. Awareness meditation maybe?
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Nah, it's not about clearing your mind or meditating. I mean, if you sit there and meditate, saying over and over again, "my mind is clear, my mind is clear," who do you think is saying that? Your internal voice. And where would your attention be? In your head. You'd be just as un-present and lost in an internal dialogue if you are telling yourself not to think about anything, as you would be thinking about how to say all the right things or how to say things just the right way so you don't lose/upset/piss off your girlfriend or whatever. Either way, you're not in the present moment and not paying attention to whatever else life is presenting to you.

No, all it takes to be present is to acknowledge that you're gone. When you see that, you're back. And then, don't judge yourself for getting lost. Realize that it just happened and let it go. You don't have to do anything about it. Just make it a game, a practice, of simply noticing when you are listening to a voice in your head telling you to get it right or not fuckup, or whatever, and that will be the key to being present. And when you see it, eventually, you will just let it be an old pattern you recognize but don't have to get caught up in. "Ah, there are those self-deprecating thoughts again." It becomes background, like wallpaper or elevator music, and doesn't have to run your life or how you express yourself. Is that clear?

I highly recommend the book 'Working on Yourself Doesn't Work' by Ariel and Shya Kane. They make what I am talking about very clear and simple.
 
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- Last time on "Unbinding the Briars" -

When last we left our hero, he was headed off to distant lands to visit his heirs...

So, I'm back from New Mexico. It was a really brief trip. Too brief, but I got a chance to spend some quality time with my kids, and I also got to spend some time with my ailing grandparents.

So, I told my kids all about Bluebird. The were fairly unimpressed. It was SO anti-climatic, after all the fretting I did over it. First I told them I was dating, and that her name was Bluebird (ha!, bet you thought I was gonna mess up and say her real name again didn't you?) , and that she was really nice, and that they didn't need to worry about my relationship with them changing.
*crickets* then, "OK dad."
So, having failed to shake their world view with that little nugget of info, I hit them with the big guns: I told them that she was poly, and explained what that meant, and her situation in particular.
"Huh, 2 husbands?" My son asked.
"Yes 2, but everybody knows about everybody else and we're all OK with it." *crickets* then "OK cool." from same son.
"Any questions?" I asked.
Nope, no." (implied undertone of "Why are you bothering us with the details of your love life you ancient old man?")
And that was the extent of what they had to say about it. The next day I was alone with my youngest in the car and I mentioned Bluebird and asked her again if she had any questions.
"Are her husbands like her?" She asked
"Well, if you mean are they Poly, then I'm not sure how to answer that exactly. We all CAN date other people, but at this time, none of us guys wants to." I said.
"Oh cool" she replied. And that was that.

I also told my Brother in Law, the other black sheep of the family. He was surprised, asked me
"And you're OK with that?"
I assured him that I was, then corrected myself and said
"I'm mostly OK with it. The other part is me WANTING to be OK with it, and working on it. It's a process, and nobody is immune to jealousy and envy." Which he was cool with. I showed him a few pictures, and told him I was very happy, and he was happy for me. I gave him permission to tell his wife (my sister).

So, that means I better hurry up and draft a letter of some sort to my family, so that they hear it from me, and not via the grapevine. I'll post it here when I do for your entertainment.

All of which brings me up to the moment I came down the hallway to the baggage claim and saw waiting there for me the woman I adore above all others, smiling that 1000 watt smile of hers that makes me feel like my heart is made of warm wax. The love and hope and joy in her eyes were everything I'd hoped to see and more on my return. There may be no man more fortunate than I.

The rest will have to wait a night or two until I can get some sleep.

Thanks again to all those who have commented here, or who sent me PMs. Your outpouring of compassion and support have been extremely touching. Thank you and goodnight.
 
<Sent the following to my family tonight, after running it by Bluebird and a couple of friends>

Dear family,
Hi, I wanted to share some good news with you.

The picture attached is Bluebird.

Bluebird and I have been dating for a few months and I really like her. I’ve dated a few other people, but haven’t ever brought it up, because I didn’t think it was important enough to mention. I feel like Bluebird is different. Bluebird is 38 and is a mother of 3, all of them adopted in late childhood, all from troubled homes, and all of them grown adults already. She teaches Science classes for a local home-school group. She loves reading, science, and all things nerdy, gaming, sci-fi, fantasy, etc.)

So far so good right? But the real reason I’m writing is that Bluebird is polyamorus. (henceforth “poly”) Specifically, when I met Bluebird, she had been married to Darkknight for 10 years, and PunkRock for 2 (Darkknight is officially recognized by the state, and PunkRock is not).

Rather than answer any specific questions about Poly, I’ll refer you to this excellent website. https://www.morethantwo.com/polyamory.html That link will take you to the FAQ page.

So, some quick answers to questions you might have:

Did I know when I met her? Yes, Bluebird has always been up front with me about everything. That’s the big difference between poly and cheating. Her husbands knew she was talking to me, and knew when we started dating.

Am I OK with it? Yes, I am. That doesn’t mean that I’m immune to jealousy or envy from time to time, but it’s not a big deal. Bluebird is worth the effort to overcome those parts of me that I don't care for anyway.

Are PunkRock and Darkknight and even ME gay? Nope. We’re all involved with Bluebird and only Bluebird. None of us is gay or bisexual, and none of us is currently dating anyone else.

Living situation? Bluebird and Darkknight and PunkRock live together in one house. I have my apartment same as always. Everyone has their own rooms.

Is it legal? Yep, in the state they live in it is. (they don’t live in PA)

What are you going to tell your kids? I already told them the entire truth. They asked a few questions, but overall didn’t seem to be too interested in it. The important thing is that my relationship with them won’t change.

Is this a secret? Nope. I don't mind if you discuss it with anyone else in the family or out

If you have any other polite questions, then I'd be glad to answer them for you.

So, why am I bothering to tell everyone this and risk a negative response? Well, for one, I told the kids and I didn’t want you to hear it second hand from them, or for them to feel like they needed to keep a secret for me. My other major reason is that I don’t want to hide anything from you that makes me happy. While I don’t think it’s anyone’s business but my own who I date, I don’t want to tell you that I’ve done nothing when you ask me what I’ve been up to lately. That being said, I totally understand if you’d rather not know anything about it. So if you’d rather not hear anything about this from now on, please just politely let me know that, and I’ll politely keep my mouth hushed about it. However, I hope that you'll be happy for me. If you're not happy about this, and if you have any condemnation or unhappy things to say to me, then please don't. Unless directly asked, this is the last you'll hear from me about it.

I love you all, I hope that someday, if you wish it, you can meet Bluebird. I'd like for her to meet you.

Your Son, Brother, and Brother-in-Law,

Warman
 
AutumnLeaves said:
Dude, take yes for an answer. If she says you're not a mistake, trying to convince her that you are a mistake seems kind of foolish.

Do you think she's being dishonest? (I don't think you are.) Don't you trust her to know what is best for her? To make good decisions about her own heart? You don't get to decide how much of her effort you're worth. You don't get to decide how special you are to her. Take her statement at face value, accept that you ARE special and ARE worth it, and go from there.

... easier said than done, I know. But the other way is not modest, it's paternalistic. And it's the product of negative-self-image vultures that don't necessarily reflect reality.
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Absolutely true. Hard to hear, but you're absolutely right. I can't on one hand say how much I admire her intelligence and self-actualization, and on the other say she's made a mistake being with me can I? I'll try hard not to let that thought pattern establish itself again. Thanks for the reminder.
 
I like it.

Just that.

We are not particularly "out" to our families - but if we were I think a letter like this one would be appropriate.

*****

On the other part, the "mistake" part. Tough love here...get over it. You ARE worth it, or she wouldn't be with you. I have never, ever ONCE "looked for" a friend/lover/boyfriend/husband - they have always just showed up and been "incorporated" into my life - because they are meant to be there? Because, because? Doesn't matter.

From the quotes here I have collected on my profile:

"You are what I found and wanted but never searched for." - FullofLove1052 5/24/13, Wide Awake thread on polyamory.com
 
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Count me in on the "like" brigade.

When I started my relationship with Chops, we went through some similar gyrations in order to keep the questions down. We still had a shit-ton of questions to field on our own anyway (no, we don't all sleep together, thankyouverymuch), but it headed things off at the pass, I think. It also showed who was able to deal with it, and who couldn't.

Here's hoping you get all "meh" responses, or "yay!" ones. (Well, I hope for mostly "yay" but I'm a realistic sort ;) ). If not... been there, done that, bought (and burned) the t-shirt, so feel free to PM if you want.

I'm glad your kids were all, "Yeah, okay, so...?"

Now... time to live your life. :)
 
Thanks so much for posting that letter. I'm trying to figure out how to come out to my family about Jack, and a letter/email might be just the thing to allow me to say what I need to before they respond. I love how you provided answers to a list of questions as well. Definitely something to mull over.

Really enjoy reading your blog, btw. Great to hear your perspective as well as Bluebird's. :)
 
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