Unbinding the briars of my joys & desires


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Happy best birthday in recent memory!


Official Greeter
Staff member
May your birthday be a joyful one.


New member
Happy birthday!


Bluebird said:
I think a portion of my overall stress is actually attributable to WarMan - this weekend had some low points between us, though overall things were good...

So, anytime that one of Bluebird’s updates contains the above, you can bet that I’m not happy about it. (Not happy about the situation only. I'm glad Bluebird can write about it)

So, if you read Bluebird’s entry, you’ll know that my birthday didn’t go exactly as planned. A combination of health issues, first on her part, and then on mine made it kinda flop as far as any hoped for sexual connection went. We still got together, but Saturday morning at 6 AM is not my bag, and Sunday morning had the rushed feel it always seems to.

Aside from that though, the day Saturday went well, and I actually enjoyed walking around the graveyard searching for her stones. I found a grave and so did she, so the teamwork was in full effect. It was nice to help her with her genealogy.

Saturday night we went and spent a few hours with my friends who live in Lancaster. It was a nice, low key visit. I really like those guys. It’s always just relaxing to be myself and not worry about offending anyone. I couldn’t really tell if Bluebird was enjoying herself or not, she seemed in a bit of a hurry to leave, but we’d already had a long day, so it was probably just that.

During part of the drive back Bluebird suddenly said “You know, my guys won’t be mad at you if you decide to break up with me. “ To which I replied “huh?” It had never crossed my mind that they would be…nor had it crossed my mind that I should break up with Bluebird.
She immediately followed this up with the statement that’s been rolling around in my head ever since. She said “I expect that when it comes time for me to move you’ll just decide to break up with me and stay here.”

It left me stunned. At first I didn’t know what to say. What do you say when you’re holding hands with someone and enjoying the afternoon and they say that? I asked her why she believed that. She stated that I don’t like change (true enough) and that I’m too close to Monkey to want to leave. For a while I just drove and thought about it. I asked her why, if that was my plan, would I go and spend my entire date day with her looking at homes in Cumberland? She said that she thought that I wasn’t really planning to do it, but that was what I’d do anyway when the time came.

So I told her the truth. “I honestly haven’t decided yet what I’m going to do. It’s a big decision, and a scary one. If I go I will leave behind my loved ones, except for you. If it doesn’t work out I’ll have lost pretty much everything, you’ll only have lost me, you are taking your loved ones with you, and I’ll be leaving mine behind. I won’t have had years to get used to the whole Poly thing, like you and your guys have. It’s scary, but despite all that I want to be with you. I just need time to feel more comfortable in that decision.” I reiterated that at the beginning of our relationship, it was important that we talk about the future, so we could decide before we started if a future was even a possibility! Once we determined that it WAS possible, and that we did have a chance for the kind of future we both would enjoy best, I felt like I didn’t really want to discuss living together forever, at least not until a little time had passed. I’ve said it before, but I just need time to be boyfriend and girlfriend.

I think that Bluebird views the idea of cohabitation as the solution to my wish to spend more time together as boyfriend and girlfriend. Maybe it is. But we have a few months before we need to talk even about that! I just want to take it slow, and enjoy our time together, give it time to develop at a more natural pace. Until then I don’t want to discuss it beyond what we have already. We know that a future is possible, now I want to work on the present.

Her reply to all of that seemed to indicate that she didn’t really believe me, and she said “I’ve just decided to enjoy the time we have together.” which left me feeling really sad. I told her that I am a “rip off the Band-Aid”, instead of a “slow peel” kinda guy. I told her that if I had already made up my mind, we wouldn’t be dating any more. She seemed surprised at this. I meant it though, if I didn’t think we had a long term future, I wouldn’t be wasting my time here, I’d be out looking for the right person, or moving on with my life. I do think we have a possible future.

So, I’m not sure if I mentioned it, but about 2 years ago I broke my back. I had surgery to repair it, but because one of my vertebra was crushed, my back has never been right since. I haven’t been able to sleep in a normal bed since then, and I sleep instead in a recliner. Since I’ve started seeing Bluebird, I try to lay in bed with her for as long as I can. I usually stay until she is snoring, then I get up and sleep in my recliner. Even the act of lying down in bed can be painful. So, the reason I’m digressing is that Bluebird was willing to have sex Saturday night when we got back, but my back was so painful after a night of sleeping in a hotel bed, and a day of walking around, and riding in a minecart, and driving 4 hours, that my back was a wreck. There was no way I was going to be able to move, much less enjoy sex. So I had to say no. I feel like shit about my back. It makes me feel weak, and unmanly. Bluebird has other options. Guys who are fit and healthy and 10 years younger than yours truly. I hate feeling like she might be better off with someone else.

Bluebird said:
He is just so down and out about me loving him - sometimes it seems like he wants me to break up with him to spare him the heartache later when he is so sure I will dump him in the future. Sigh.

I’m not sure where this is coming from really. I have to think it’s a legacy of former boyfriends. I have been the person to end the majority of my relationships, and I always do it up front, in person, and clearly. (Band-Aid ripper, remember?) I assured her that if that was what I really wanted, I would do it myself, and without delay.

Since we returned I haven’t had much opportunity to talk to Bluebird. Work has been stupid busy, and I’m way behind after a week of vacation (and I was behind before I left, with 6x my normal ticket allotment) and a half day Friday. My boss’ patience is wearing thin, and I really need to catch up, so I’ve been limited to basically responding to things Bluebird sends. Monday I didn’t really hear from her, because she was on the road with Darkknight, and a large part of Tuesday she was doing the same, and catching up with her daughter.

On top of that, I’ve had something weird going on…My legs have been cramped solid for the last 2 days, but only my upper legs. It’s strange. Monkey felt my leg today, and thought that she was touching my cell phone, but it was my leg muscles, they are knotted hard as wood, and WILL NOT release. Last night I took 3 muscle relaxers and 2 Oxycontins and was finally able to sleep. When I woke this morning, it was mostly gone, but as the day went on, it returned and got worse. Tonight I took the muscle relaxers and pain meds again, and for a while, I was hopeful that I would be able to sleep, but it’s now 3:30 AM and I’m still awake. I was short in my goodnights tonight with Bluebird. I had made the mistake of going out to see Monkey, I was hoping that my legs would just be mildly bad, however at about 8 PM I couldn’t take it anymore and I left Monkey’s place and drove home in extreme discomfort. When Bluebird messaged me I was writhing in my chair from the pain, I wanted to be chatty, but I couldn’t concentrate on anything else. I was sad to read just now that she thought I was just brushing her off. Maybe when she sees the timestamp on this post, she’ll know I was serious. I’m still too uncomfortable to sleep, but I’m going to try.

I don’t know what to do for Bluebird. I love her, and I’m trying hard to make this work. I still have lots of my own demons to defeat, and doubts to overcome. But that’s my mindset, that I’m working to make this work out. I don’t want to break up with Bluebird, and I haven’t made up my mind to just play around and waste her time. Sometimes I think that this is hard for her, because both of her other boys were so gung-ho to live with her, that anything less from me feels like a failure to commit maybe?

Tonight Bluebird said that she loved me and asked me to respond in kind. I did, but I’m hoping she’ll read this as well.

Bluebird, I love you. More than I’ve loved anyone in a very long time. I feel like with you, I may have finally gotten it right. You make me happy and I love spending time with you. I’m looking forward to seeing you, and trying to make this all feel right again for you.
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Well-known member
WarMan, I wonder if it would be more beneficial if you and Bluebird stopped reading each other's blogs? I love my bf, Blue. But, I would not want to read his diary (at least as it pertained to me.) We all have doubts, insecurities, fears, and baggage from past experiences. And there are times when those are front and center. I don't blog or write in a diary. But, if I did, those would be the times I'd find it most cathartic to write. And those would be the times it would be most painful for Blue to read my blog (or me to read his.) Don't get me wrong, I think it's extremely important to be open in our communication...to voice our feelings to our partner(s). To discuss our plans. But, if blogging is cathartic in nature, it's natural that we'll see some of the verbal vomit and excrement that we wouldn't necessarily see normally (or at least not without some filter)? I don't know if that makes any sense to you...

At any rate. I really hope your back and leg pain gets worked out quickly!! And that work lets up for you, too :) Feel better, WarMan!


Staff member
I hope your legs feel better soon too. What on earth caused that? A result of mistreating the bad back?

It's funny one of your fears is that you are too old (and broken) for Bluebird. She lists both her guys as being within one year of you.

I'm 22 years older than my primary partner, but we both have health issues. She's 38, I am 60... doesn't matter as long as there is stuff in common, love, dedication, and sexual attraction!


Active member
Leg cramps! Oh gawd, I get them really badly, too - it's terrible. Mine start in my big toe, believe it or not. All of a sudden, the muscles and tendons on the top of my foot that connect to the big toe start cramping, my toe pulls straight up and I cannot relax it, and any attempt to do so hurts. It usually wakes me up in the wee hours, and has me wimpering! Then the cramping moves up my leg to the muscles around my shin bone (tibialis anterior) and sometimes all the way to my quads. It's so weird to have cramps in the front of my legs. I used to only get them in my calves or hamstrings, but not both at the same time.

I always wonder if I need more potassium when it happens, or if I am hydrated enough. Those are the first thoughts I have whenever it happens. Now you have me wondering if it is related to my back - I have two herniated disks. I've had back problems my whole life. But potassium is most often the culprit when it comes to leg cramps, especially if one's diet is heavy on the protein with not much veggies.

Anyway, all this rambling on is just to let you know that I empathize with you. My former manager also had recovered from a broken back, and three back surgeries, so I saw first-hand how hard it was for her. She eats painkillers all day long. I hope pain-free days and nights return for you very soon.
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WarMan, I wonder if it would be more beneficial if you and Bluebird stopped reading each other's blogs?

This is a thing that's come up before. I intend to address it in my next post.

I actually went back and edited my last post. It gave the impression that I was upset about what Bluebird had written. I'm not upset that Bluebird wrote what she did, I'm unhappy about the situation around it.

Thanks everyone for the well wishes. Yesterday for a time, it went away completely, but then came back with a vengeance. For now, it's faded a bit again, but who knows if it's really gone?


My physical therapist is always pointing out that the muscular/skeletal system IS a system and one part out of whack will inevitably lead to strains on the other parts. Moving so as to favor a painful or stiff back is going to mess up your legs and vice versa. War Man, if you have been especially tense while trying to catch up on work sitting at your computer for hours, on top of weekend that causes you to be favoring your back even more than usual, it is not surprising your legs might be over strained. Have you access to PT or therapeutic massage?

Oh - I'm sad for you that things are tough going right now. :(

I read Bluebird's blog and know how much she puts into her relationships and I feel that you are in safe hands with her.

Just in case it helps, I felt for a long time after getting together with Art that things would always be difficult. I'd been happily single for years and years at that point and the adjustment to being partnered wasn't easy for me at all. What made it harder was that Art and I don't live close to each other, we are both busy and Art has developed over the years a tendency to prioritise work over everything else in his life. It felt like there would never be time for us to develop closeness. It did take years, lots of discussions, agreeing to prioritise spending time together a couple of nights a week but it has proved to be possible.

I hope that it is the same for you and Bluebird - that time helps both of you to feel more settled with each other.



Hey 70’s/80’s kids, remember this one?

You’ll see your problems multiply
if you continually decide
To faithfully pursue
The Policy of Truth.

Man, that was a great album. - True Story, My grandma asked me what I wanted for my birthday that year. I told her I wanted the latest album by Depeche Mode. She went in and asked the music store guy (remember those?) if he had any music by “Peach Commode”. They did not. I think I got money instead.

ANYWAY, I’ve been thinking a lot lately about honesty, and complete honesty and the question of whether too much honesty is harmful. It’s come up several times now, people asking me if I think it’s wise that Bluebird and I read each other’s journal entries. In fact, I gather that Bluebird has been hearing more of this advice recently? (I actually started writing this update last Wed)

Last Friday she and I had a long talk about it. (one of the things I love about Bluebird is how I can HAVE philosophical discussions with her). It was interesting to hear her opinion, and it seems we agree on the topic almost completely.

One part of what everyone perceives as us reacting to “secrets” we wouldn’t otherwise know, is that we are both living through the same events, and often want to talk about the same issues at much the same time. The problems we have are happening simultaneously to both of us, and so, get talked about by both of us.

Another part is that there is rarely anything either of us reads in the other’s journal that is a surprise. Sure, every now and then we’re surprised at a detail or a misunderstanding that we’ve had, but for the most part, the stuff we write here is stuff we talk about in person.

We both think that honesty, when tempered with compassion, can only do good. “I’m brutally honest” is something people who like to feel justified in hurting others say. You can be totally honest about anything without being cruel.

Yesterday Monkey told me “I just don’t miss you as much as you miss me.” That hurt a lot. But it was true, and it’s something I can use to make smarter decisions going forward. I can use it to make other things hurt less. As much as I didn’t want to hear that, I’m glad I did. It allows me to make informed, consenting decisions about my life.

What about only telling SOME of the truth? When Bluebird first started dating me, we had a lot of “This is the way things are” talks. She wasn’t trying to scare me away or bully me into accepting anything. She was trying to give me all the information that I needed to really consent to starting a relationship with her. That kind of truth can seem harsh, but I think it’s ultimately kind and ethical.

Despite all of that, It’s been several days since I’ve read Bluebird’s journal. I’ve been thinking about it. See, I have a tendency to overthink everything in my relationships. My mind doesn’t rest ever. It keeps me up all night (like tonight, when I have to be up and working in 5 hours, but IT wanted to write this). I think I’ve decided to delay the reading, stay a few days behind. I think that will give me the distance and perspective I may need to approach it from a non-emotional place.

Actually, sometimes things that aren’t said echo more loudly than the things that are.

Example: When reading Bluebird’s journal, I noted how she said she felt this immediate deep connection with PunkRock. When reading her entries about our first few dates, I couldn’t help but feel somewhat…less…right? She wasn’t nearly as complimentary in her description of my looks, nor did she feel an immediate connection.

I guess the thing is though, that this is something she and I talked about. Would not knowing that those were her feelings make me happier? I guess it might, in the short term, but hearing about it, talking about it with her, and resolving it, I think might lead us to be happier in the long term. I think this is the strongest point for not worrying too much about what the other reads here. Yes, it does cause issues to come up from time to time, but they are things we talk about and work through, and I think we end up in a stronger relationship for having faced and resolved them. In the case I used above, we discussed it, and I agreed that while I would have liked to be “instantly” awesome, she’s more than shown she thinks I’m awesome now, and that’s really all that matters.

I don’t think that Bluebird and I have had any fights that were directly caused by anything written here.

So, You probably know that Bluebird and I had a pretty major misunderstanding Saturday. It wasn’t about anything written here (although we did mention one thing about it in the course of our discussion).

While I don’t want to go into details, it was essentially over “How to have a disagreement”. Bluebird isn’t used to dating someone as…trenchant… as I am. (I can’t help but hear Monkey shouting “You mean she’s never dated anyone who’s an insufferable ass before?!”) I have strong opinions about things, and I don’t hesitate to voice them. I’d like to think that I am sensitive, but perhaps not always as much as I should be.

I’ve been told that I’m difficult to argue with by a few people. Monkey and Bluebird are the only two people I’ve ever had this level of trouble with however. I tend to see our discussions as a giant branching structure, with many different issues tied in together. I think that Monkey and Bluebird tend to see issues as separate and discrete. To me, this is like trying to pull one end of a rope without moving the other, whereas MY style seems to them like I’m picking up issues at random. I don’t really think that either of them is wrong, there are people I’ve been with who had no problem with this, and I know that both of them have dated (and married) people who have no problem with their style either. They are just different styles which are unfortunately, not very compatible.

I don’t want to give the impression that I fight all the time with Bluebird or Monkey. With both of them we’ve had arguments, even emotional ones, that went just fine, however, the occasional “circular” argument does pop up and can be very frustrating for both of us. From their perspective it looks like I’m just picking up random things to fight about, and from my perspective it looks like they are deliberately being obtuse.

So, during this fight both of us were under the impression that the other was breaking up with us. That’s probably something we need to address on it’s own. (the fact that both of us secretly believe that the other may dump us) BUT the important thing is that I said to Bluebird that I thought we needed a plan, because, this is part of my personality (and hers) and that we needed to have a plan to diffuse it if it reared its ugly head again. The solution we came up with is pretty simple, and I feel like we’ll be able to use it, and head this off next time. Bluebird seemed to agree. We may yet have problems here, but we’re aware of the problem, and we’re looking for solutions because we want to stay together.

Maybe I have a unique perspective, being so new to Poly. ALL of this seems hard sometimes! It’s almost gotten to where my definition of poly would sometimes be: “Finding out all the ways that you are broken and trying to fix them.” It all seems like a bit of a struggle to me, and maybe I just view the little bumps and bruises that I get reading her journal, or dealing with my issues, as part of the journey.

The trail has some rough spots, but the view is beautiful and it ends someplace I definitely want to be.


Note: All quotes here that are mine are verbatim. All quotes from other people are paraphrased to the best of my ability. I have tried to be true to the sentiments expressed, as I understood them.

Previously, I wrote here:

"... the important thing is that I said to Bluebird that I thought we needed a plan, because, this is part of my personality (and hers) and that we needed to have a plan to diffuse it if it reared its ugly head again. The solution we came up with is pretty simple, and I feel like we’ll be able to use it, and head this off next time. Bluebird seemed to agree. We may yet have problems here, but we’re aware of the problem, and we’re looking for solutions because we want to stay together."

So, as you know, Bluebird and I had a pretty major fight last week. Afterwards I told her that we needed to have a plan for the next time it happened, so that we could have way to diffuse a hot-tempered fight and come back and talk when we had cooled off. Both times we’ve had a major fight, Bluebird has lost her temper pretty quickly. I’m pretty quick to heat up myself, and so I felt like having this was something we really needed, and its’ been infinitely helpful to me in my relationship with Monkey. Monkey is just as hot headed, and using this method is the only way we’re still best friends.
The plan was this: When a fight erupts that either of us feel is getting out of hand, we can request a break apart to cool off. Part of this request has to be a time when we can meet back up and talk about it. So, for example: “Hey, I think we need to take a break from this. Let’s get back together in an hour and talk about it.” OR “I need to walk away for a bit and cool down. I’ll meet you back here at 4 and we can talk about this once we’ve both calmed down.”

I feel like this is a good plan, and it allows everyone a chance to calm down, and think with the rational part of their brain, instead of a pissed off limbic system. I stressed to Bluebird that I needed her to buy into this plan, and that if she had any objections, or wanted to modify or limit it, that this was the time to talk about it. She said No, she was good with the plan, and it would be our plan going forward to keep bad times from returning.

That was last week, and although she’s been nervous and needed a lot of extra reassurances that we were OK (Which I was glad to give) we’ve had a lovely time. Up until yesterday.

Yesterday morning I contacted Bluebird and asked if I could make a minor change to our schedule this week. Specifically, I asked her if I could delay our second date night this week by an hour and a half. I explained that Monkey needed my help with something, and since I was going to be at Bluebird’s house for almost the entire day Thursday, Thanksgiving. Here it is, cut directly from Google Hangouts:

“Monkey asked for my help with some stuff, and I just can't make it work out any other way. You asked first, but I was hoping you'd be magnanimous and let her have an hour or so, since I'm skipping Thanksgiving with her this year”

That simple (to my mind) request started an absolute shit-storm that I’m still dealing with. Instantly Bluebird was angry. “you don’t have to spend Thanksgiving with me at all”, “Maybe you want to cut back on your time with me and spend more time with Monkey” etc. I was stunned by the instant escalation. Immediately I typed as fast as I could to try to fix it:

“no, no Stop. I wasn't trying to guilt you into it. Or blame it on you. Just saying that it's more to assuage MY guilt about it, it was already YOUR time, I had given it to you.“

To which she again repeated that I didn’t have to spend time with her or her family on Thanksgiving.

I won’t bore you with the entire back and forth, but it went on like that for more than an hour. Me trying to say that I didn’t mean anything, other than I was hoping she’d be cool with an hour delay, and that I DID want to spend Thanksgiving with her, and her being upset that I had asked, or the way I had asked, or both.

At the end of that hour, it was clear that we were getting nowhere. So, I said I wanted to invoke our agreement to take some time and give each other space. Specifically I wrote:

“OK, at this point, I think we need to do what we've previously agreed on, and agree to come back to this later. My suggestion will be tonight, Does that work for you?”

To which she basically said “I don’t have anything to say to you” and then continued the argument. I asked her

“You have previously agreed with me, on a course of action when fights like this pop up. Are you backing down from that now? I think that both of us are overwrought right now, and could use some time to cool off.”

Her response to this was to suggest that maybe she and I should take a break until I “Dealt with my Monkey issues”. After some more talk, where I tried to figure out what she meant, I said:

“I have said "hey, let's do what you agreed to do with me, and take a break for a couple hours and cool off". And you are refusing to keep your promise to do that with me”

After that not much was said, a little back and forth, but mostly quiet. I was at work, (I work from home) and had a lot going on. I was the emergency on-call tech, so all emergency level calls were being routed to me, and I was currently working several emergency calls, including some live phone calls. Suddenly my doorbell rang. I figured it was just FedEX and so I took my time getting to the door. There stood Bluebird, phone in hand. Apparently she had been texting me on her way over to my house. (Our date was supposed to run from 6pm-9pm that night, this was just past noon.)

I was still on my call, but I told her “come in” and then went back to my call. Midway through, I noticed she was still standing there and so I told her to have a seat. As soon as I could bail from my calls and pass them on to someone else I did. I had a meeting with my boss scheduled for 5 minutes later, but I said “fuck it” dropped him a quick email saying I would not be there, and left. It took about 10 minutes or so, during which she was silent. When I finished, I went on break mode and said “What’s up?”

(Character limit, continued in part 2)


I frankly don’t even remember what followed, other than our resolutions. 1) Bluebird asked me to think about whether I really wanted as much time as she had been giving me or not. I agreed to do so 2) I agreed to think about why I feel the need to argue in a non-emotional manner (Bluebird found this very distressing, and said it felt like she was with a counselor or lawyer). And 3) I told Bluebird that I was VERY distressed that she had refused to follow our agreed upon course of action.

This last point was a huge sticking point for me. I told Bluebird that once we’ve both agreed on something, it needs to stick. I told her that next time I would enforce it on my end, and that if she showed up after I asked for time I would refuse to open the door. This REALLY upset her, and she said that might be a deal breaker for her. I told her that people who agree to things, then refuse to honor those in the heat of the moment is a deal breaker for me.

Towards the end of the argument, I got thirsty. My drink was across the room, so I stood to get it, and because I have back problems, as I was drinking I asked her if she felt that there was anything else we needed to discuss. She immediately got upset again, and said she felt I was dismissing her. The argument then became about how I had missed a request for me to hold her hand and reassure her during our fight. I explained to her that when I’m angry or upset, I find it very hard to be physically affectionate, that it feels really dishonest. Having said that, I told her that I was calm now, and that I was sorry I hadn’t been able to give her the affection she needed. I sat next to her, and held her hand, and hugged her, rubbed her back and kissed her head. Soon after she left. Before she left, she asked if she should pack up her things. I told her absolutely not, that I had no intention of breaking up with her. She said that she didn’t believe me, but left her things behind. I left her with a hug, and an “I love you”. So, I did give her the physical affection she was asking for, if not immediately when she wanted it. So it was distressing to read that she still feels I didn’t give it to her.

I probably should have prefaced this by saying that I have not slept this last week. I’ve been on call, when I’m on call, I get interrupted all night long, and have to basically work 12+ hour days. At the end of those weeks I’m a wreck. Yesterday was my last day on call, and I was exhausted. My eyes were burning and I couldn’t think. I told Bluebird that I was so tired, and upset, and that I had things to think about, so I thought it was best if we skipped our date night. I wrote Darkknight a little text message, telling him that Bluebird would be upset, and asking him to please give her some extra love if he could.

Later that night, I texted Bluebird before I went to bed to tell her I loved her and would talk to her in the morning. Again I was greeted with accusations that I didn’t love her, that I was going to break up with her, that all she needed was physical affection, but that I wouldn’t give it to her, etc. I again told her that I was exhausted and just needed a little time off. She again said that this was an indication that I didn’t care about her feelings, and told me that her other boys had never done this to her. Eventually I told her that I needed to sleep and signed off. I went straight to bed and fell asleep for 10 hours straight.

This morning I woke up and felt a little better. At least my eyes weren’t burning. I had been concerned for Bluebird all night, and though I slept it wasn’t very sound or restful. So I messaged her first thing today.

"Good morning Corazon, I just wanted to say that I love you before your classes start. I'm trying to make up for lost work yesterday, but I'll have my chat open and will respond when I can."

To which she responded:
"I don't have much to say to you."

"Look, if you are going to make me pay for needing time to cool off that's going to be a problem. It's really distressing to me the way you seem to act like this relationship should be entirely about the way you feel at any given moment. YOU need a hug, but I need some space. Are we really going to have a major problem like this every time it doesn't go your way? I told you yesterday why I needed space and it had nothing to do with my feelings about you. It had to do with a week of no sleep."

"And your needs were more important than mine."

"THIS time I did what I needed.”

"I don't feel very loved. I needed physical contact. I don't feel like I can trust you right now. I will meet you at Panera."

And that is where we left things.

I love Bluebird very much, but I WILL sometimes need to get things my way. If this is how it's going to be every time I don't give in... I mean, I can see why others might do it. She's wonderful, amazing, and makes me really happy. For the first time in a long time I feel like someone really values me. However, I'm not willing to give in in all things, even for someone wonderful. Not even unwilling...just incapable.

And THAT is what I actually told her yesterday:

"I love you very much Bluebird, but I know that sometimes love isn't enough. Regardless of whether we work out as a couple, I will still love you, I'll still want to be your friend, will still want to hang out with you, etc, Heck, I'd even still want to have sex with you! But sometimes people who love each other just shouldn't be a couple."

She said:
“That kind of love is just words"

That made me really sad. That is the love I share with Monkey. I'm still friends with all of my exes, even my ex-wife! Love doesn't conquer all, that's just the reality of life. I don't hate people because we don't work out as a couple. Love isn't enough. You have to have love to make it work, love is essential, but it's not enough alone. Even if she hated me, I won't stop loving Bluebird, or wanting to be her friend, play board games with her, etc. That's all I was trying to tell her. That breaking up with me might be sad, but it didn't have to be a disaster. Sometimes a breakup is the best thing you can do for a relationship, as odd as that sounds.

But I don’t' WANT to break up with her. I love Bluebird, and I think she's very special. But this refusal to honor our agreements, this...disregard for my needs, this amazing inflation of the situation, and this pouting for not getting her way are really disturbing and upsetting. I don't know what I should do at this point.

She needs to understand that I’m not trying to run away or leave..... but that her behavior is PUSHING me away, that I wasn’t questioning the relationship until she did things like blatantly disregard our agreement and demand that I meet her needs without seeming to consider mine, etc.

I still want to make it work, but I need to have her understand that if she can't compromise on things then I don't see HOW it can work.

I just finished eating crow with my boss over disappearing yesterday. I really need to get to work, but I wanted to write this out, and have it here before I show up at Panera tonight.

I’m going with the feeling that I want to stay together. There are a few things that I need however. I need Bluebird to agree to stick to our agreement about arguments in the future. If she has any amendments, like, maximum time away, or hugs first, or whatever, that’s fine, but we need to finalize and agree on it. I can’t live with this kind of stress in my life repeatedly, and this is the only way I know to stop it. Second, I need Bluebird to tell me that it’s OK for me to take care of myself sometimes, even if it conflicts with her needs. I need her to understand that sometimes she will need a hug and I won’t be able to give it. Not all the time, not even most of the time, but sometimes. Yesterday was one of those times, and I need to hear that it was OK for me to take it. Finally, I need her to trust me more, to stop looking for ways to compare me to past boyfriends.

I don’t believe in god, but if I did I would pray for things to work out for Bluebird and I. I believe in people and Love. I hope this isn’t the end, but I’m determined to do the right thing, no matter what.

I love you Bluebird.


New member
Hey WarMan,

I thought about posting this on bluebird's blog this morning, but since it's a blog and not soliciting responses, I held off. I just wanted to say that I too tend to react the way you do when I get into an emotional argument. I tend to shut down, withdraw, feel very uncomfortable with physical contact, and retreat into rational mode. To those that don't react in that manner, it CAN be distressing. I hear what you are saying about not wanting to act inauthentically in the moment re: holding hands or cuddling. I know that once I have been emotionally flooded, it can take twenty minutes to half an hour before I can literally handle any affection, even just in terms of receiving.

For my partner Nina and I, we have come to the conclusion that if I need to leave the room, or go for a walk, she has to let me have that space, even though to her it feels very hurtful. To deny me that space just prolongs the situation. Because life is a compromise, I have agreed to never shun her attempts to hold my hand. A hug is sometimes too much for me, and making eye contact when I'm upset is challenging too, but her hand in mine is something in between that I've learnt I can cope with. It gets better with time. It sounds to me like you and she are just figuring out your different responses to this kind of thing. Give each other a bit of time to calm down. I think this is totally something you guys can work through. Best of luck.


New member
I'm one that tends to turn off their emotions during an argument. It may not be the healthiest thing but it allows me not to blow my top in the midst of the argument. It can come off as cold or detached but it's what I need to do to keep things from escalating. Sometimes you just need time to calm down so you can present your side in a rational manner.
I'm very similar in that if I'm upset, I need space and trying to force me to talk or touch is only going to make me feel fenced in and cornered. This is hard for Moonlight, because she wants reassurance and she wants to hold or take care of me or make things better. I just can't deal with that kind of interaction during the moment. We've almost broken up over it, and we still don't have a good way to deal with the mismatch of needs. We just do the best we can to be kind to each other.

Being with someone like Bluebird would be way too emotionally and mentally exhausting for me to handle, and I have enormous amounts of respect for you for trying to make the situation work. I wish good things for you and hope you end up happy.


Active member
Hi WarMan,
I appreciate your perspective on handling a new relationship in a poly arrangement. It isn't easy, I'm sure. I read Bluebird's account of the latest big fight you had, before I read yours, and it amazes me how differently you two see things. It is night and day. I wrote in BB's blog that it's like you were interacting in alternate universes. So, something is definitely amiss in how the two of you are connecting or communicating, etc.

I truly hope you both can resolve some things enough to get on the same page and be in harmony, so that things work out better for you both.


Official Greeter
Staff member
I suggest working with a counselor?
Hey Warman. I'm sad to read the latest updates from you and Bluebird.

It's tricky I think to deal with disagreements in a new relationship. It is clear from Bluebird's blog that she is incredibly caring and loving. She goes to huge lengths to spend time with all of her men. I can see why people fall in love with her so easily.

It is also clear that Bluebird is needy and lacks confidence that she is worthy of love. I suspect that it is hard for her to share time with others and I suspect that your relationship with Monkey is an ongoing source of stress for her. Something she will find hard to deal with. I'd guess that may be why time with Monkey is such a source of stress for all of you.

Bluebird mentioned in her blog also that she felt knowing you were going to meet an online friend for coffee was a mild source of stress for her.

This is all understandable given Bluebird's lack of confidence that she is attractive and loveable. I guess the danger for you is that sometimes loving people who are very needy and lacking in confidence can leave people isolated. Be careful that you do not start to lose too much time with Monkey and that you do not avoid meeting new people. No one person is enough for anybody and being isolated for the sake of love is lonely.

I could not have a relationship with somebody like Bluebird - no matter how loveable they were. I need space to meet my friends, to be on my own and to meet new people without feeling like it is an issue. I speak as somebody in a monogamous relationship.

I hope you get some sleep.



Like others who read both blogs, my heart hurts and my mind aches as I read this.

Let me share my experience.

I was a secondary for 5 years. In that time, I can't tell you how many times similar arguments or emotional conversations happened that were initiated by my fears or my Love's insecurities over being left behind.

I feared that because I was the secondary, when it was time for a change , I would be the one forsaken; I would be the one left behind, the Primary/long term partner would remain intact. My fear wasn't so much that he would stop loving me but that, like too many other Secondaries that I've connected with , the primary would struggle with insecurity, jealousy and fear and demand my exit. The statistics were not in my favour. I knew that but I trusted him when he told me I was safe. This wasn't their first trip down this road , he'd loved another before me, as did his partner. They were experienced. I was a novice, an apprentice.

My Love had a fear of his own. He was torn. He loved me deeply and he didn't want to lose me but he also wanted my happiness and feared that (in his words) one day I would wake up and realize what a shitty deal I had , being third at best in his world. It didn't mean I meant less, no, because he really did love me, but in life priority. He felt that one day I would want someone of my own , someone who could be there for me full time , to have a "normal" relationship with. He feared he would lose me and it sometimes consume him with worry , sadness and jealousy. I tried to assure him that this relationship and the limitations it had were ok with me due to my life circumstances. I didn't want another husband. I valued my freedom. I wanted to focus on my career and children and have a regular lover on the side. I wanted to care about my lover and have him care for me. I didn't want to feel used and discarded. That was my motivation. Regardless , I thought that was a selfish fear considering he had a life partner he remained committed to. That said, who knew what the future would bring and maybe one day I would tire of having a fraction of my man's life and heart.

But you can't reason with heartache. The heart wants what it wants.

Ultimately our relationship did end not due to a natural erosion of our feelings or my need for a full time partner but due to his partners issues and mistakes that were made. (NRE and jealousy are a potent mix.) He had to repair his life at home and the hurt and stress and drama on both sides became too much for him to manage. My deepest fears were realized. We ended and it was heart wrenching and life changing for us both.

I reflect on all of those conversations over the years and the time processing both mine and his emotions ; I remember the tears shed on both sides, the worry, the heartache. We wasted so much precious time on such fears. My fear was indeed realized however in retrospect I wish I'd accepted that I had no control over the outcome , what will be, will be, and rather than lament and fret, we'd spent more time smiling and loving each other.

As someone who has lost a marriage , a mother , a close friend and a treasured love in the last few years , I know time is a valuable commodity. Don't waste time on this stuff. You deserve love and stillness of heart.

Take care.
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