Unreasonable to seek the truth?

[money44]

My wife cheated on me with Mike during a time when our marriage was on very shaky grounds and before we officially opened our marriage. However, she lied to me about it and told me that she never had sex with him, even though her lies were very obvious and I called her out on them multiple times.

So when we opened our marriage (in an attempt to save it, which it ultimately did), she decided to continue to see Mike and was very adamant that they never had sex before. However I was very uncomfortable with this because although I did not have tangible proof, I could tell that my wife was lying and that she and Mike had previously been intimate. I also felt that even if she was telling the truth, that she should have cut him off and started out the open relationship with a "clean slate."

Now every time my wife would attempt to see Mike, I would get uncomfortable and start asking questions and trying to make her admit to the truth. Eventually I confronted her with phone records that proved she lied about where she was and who she was with, but she still refused to admit anything had happened with Mike. This routine went on for a while and would get pretty contentious, with my wife getting angry and telling me to leave it alone.

Eventually, my wife admitted that she had cheated on me with Mike 4 times prior to seeing him "openly." However, to this day, she says that I was wrong to keep on digging and investigating, even though she was still attempting to see Mike every week. She says I was doing too much....Was I? Is it unreasonable to keep digging when you know you're being lied to consistently?

 

[BathedInSalt]

What were/are your motivations for finding the truth?

 

[GalaGirl]

Is this the friend from the other post? If so, it would help to keep things together in one thread.

However I was very uncomfortable with this because although I did not have tangible proof, I could tell that my wife was lying and that she and Mike had previously been intimate.

Did you ask her directly if she and Mike had been intimate?

I also felt that even if she was telling the truth, that she should have cut him off and started out the open relationship with a "clean slate."

Did you request this?

She says I was doing too much....

What would she prefer you do instead when there is a big problem like this?

I get the vibe you guys don't talk directly to each other. Either before a thing, during a thing, or after a thing. Is your communication style to kinda "hint" at things?

I could be wrong. But I think...

• You were wrong to peek in her phone/texts. (If that is what you mean by "phone records.")
• She was wrong to cheat with Mike and then lie about it.

Getting into side conversation about who was the "more wrong" wastes time and energy. Could call it both did some wrongs and move the conversation forward.

Was I? Is it unreasonable to keep digging when you know you're being lied to consistently?

I think so. If you already know you are being lied to why bother to gather more details about it? You already know it happened. Knowing more details won't make it hurt less.

Before the phone peeking, when you knew it was going on, could have said "Spouse. I've noticed these lies and this cheating. Can we talk about that? I cannot do Open like that."

After phone peeking could have said "Spouse, I did a bad thing. I was feeling upset from the lies/cheating. Rather than talk to you direct I peeked in your phone. That was wrong of me. Then I found more confirmation to what I already knew. It didn't change that part any.

Now instead of 1 problem between us, there are 2. I want to apologize to you for my peeking. I would like to also talk about the lying/cheating. I cannot do Open like that."

Then let the chips fall where they may. Have the conversations you need to have.

You guys may want to focus on healing from the cheating and temporarily Close the marriage while you work on that. Then try Open again later. I don't know if this helps.

http://felislunae.org/relationships-love/coming-clean/

You may have to do some soul searching.

If you cannot trust your wife to keep her Word, then perhaps you don't want to do Open with her or cheating repair with her.

• Does that mean suggesting to stay Closed and giving up the idea of Open?
  
• Does that mean suggesting not being married any more?
  
• Something else?

Only you can decide what you are and are not up for. You have to figure out what your deal breakers are.

I'm sorry you deal in this. I encourage you to have the conversations you need to be having up front though.

And instead of vague agreements like "Don't date/have sex with exes" trying to get her to stop cheating with the guy indirectly by "blocking all exes."

Could address it directly and call it what it really is for you: "Cheating affairs are a deal breaker. No cheating."

Galagirl

 

[Rockit49]

Sucky place! Really..

You're better of looking at it from the " we did Divorce" and have a chance to start over! Would you do it again.. Now that you know the truth!?
No one is perfect.. No.
It's better to start clean! Fresh and so clean .. But
She's probably in deep NRE... And would suck to make her stop huh..?
If it's worth it to her and you.... You would start over..
No rules!!!!
Only Boundaries! Your personal boundaries to respect
And she can have her boundaries.
Not rules. Big difference.
Good luck
Great place to ask for way forward once you choose true direction for you?

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

Is it unreasonable that you would disrespect your wife's wishes and invade her privacy? Yes.

You say you knew even before you had proof that she cheated. How did you expect completely disregarding her individual privacy to make the situation any better?

You two need counseling. You two need to wait to be open because adding new people to a broken situation is just a recipe for disaster. It honestly (to me) sounds like you have pretty overwhelming issues that often lead to a messy, unpleasant divorce. Prepare yourself for the worst while working towards the best.

 

[vinsanity0]

I understand you need to heal from being lied to, but now that you're in an open marriage, what does it matter who she is seeing?

 

[CTF]

I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that he snooped through his wife's phone. Unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong money), he confronted her with phone records which are on the phone bill. And unless the phone is in her name without him, and she pays the bill, it certainly doesn't seem to amount to an invasion of privacy.

Now, to offer a different perspective money, you're certainly not in the wrong for wanting to get to the truth. Of course it matters. Those who lie are not trustworthy. And if they commit to the lie, then it's completely unreasonable to expect that they deserve trust until they come clean. I will say, however, that a better approach would be to flat out tell her you don't believe her because her story(ies) doesn't make sense.

Healing is impossible if the toxic behavior (in that case, lying) persists. And even once the liar comes clean, it still can take a very long time to gain that trust back.

 

[money44]

Is this the friend from the other post? If so, it would help to keep things together in one thread.
Galagirl

No Galagirl, these are two separate people and unrelated incidents.

Did you ask her directly if she and Mike had been intimate?
Galagirl

Yes, and she said they hadn't

Did you request this?
Galagirl

I wasn't firm about it, but I did tell her that I was uncomfortable with her seeing the guy she cheated on me with and that I think it would be best for us to start with a clean slate. I didn't want to tell her what to do, I wanted her to make that decision on her own accord.

I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that he snooped through his wife's phone. Unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong money), he confronted her with phone records which are on the phone bill. And unless the phone is in her name without him, and she pays the bill, it certainly doesn't seem to amount to an invasion of privacy.

Exactly, it was phone records from the phone bill of our shared cell phone plan

What were/are your motivations for finding the truth?

There were multiple motivations. Not only is it difficult for me to "know" that I'm being lied to by somebody I love and am supposed to trust, but I feel like we were starting the relationship over on a foundation built on a lie, and I didn't think that was healthy. Also, we had just had other issues that damaged our foundation of trust, and I really wanted to trust her again, and I felt that if she came clean it would have gone a long way towards building back my level of trust. And every time I would try to move on and forget about it, she and Mike would try to see each other, which would bring back my feelings of distrust, and lead me to again asking her to come clean.

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that he snooped through his wife's phone. Unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong money), he confronted her with phone records which are on the phone bill. And unless the phone is in her name without him, and she pays the bill, it certainly doesn't seem to amount to an invasion of privacy.

Now, to offer a different perspective money, you're certainly not in the wrong for wanting to get to the truth. Of course it matters. Those who lie are not trustworthy. And if they commit to the lie, then it's completely unreasonable to expect that they deserve trust until they come clean. I will say, however, that a better approach would be to flat out tell her you don't believe her because her story(ies) doesn't make sense.

Healing is impossible if the toxic behavior (in that case, lying) persists. And even once the liar comes clean, it still can take a very long time to gain that trust back.

"Keeping at it" until finding the truth implies doing things that are not normally done. Looking through every phone call/text - even through a phone bill - is still snooping just like going through them on a phone.

Not saying op doesn't deserve the truth. He very much does, but snooping isn't healthy in a relationship.

 

[dingedheart]

"Keeping at it" until finding the truth implies doing things that are not normally done. Looking through every phone call/text - even through a phone bill - is still snooping just like going through them on a phone.

Not saying op doesn't deserve the truth. He very much does, but snooping isn't healthy in a relationship.

Are you serious. Keeping at it " implies " doing things that aren't normally done. What difference does it make how much effort he / she expends trying to discover the truth??? I completely disagree that they looking at joint phone records is " SNOOPING ". And I really don't think relationship crininals are afforded the privilege of privacy / counterintelligence snooping.

Also you / we have no idea the dynamic of their relationship and the corrosive effect " little white lies " have had over the yrs. There maybe a great deal of self respect on the line here. People don't like being treated like they're stupid or Schmucks and this is the fall out from that.



Here's what I'd being looking out for ....poly as the bandaid for a troubled marriage. We see lots of case of poly as the soft transition to divorce.

I'd start looking and planning for that. From the small glimpse we got her attitude sounds less poly and more I want what I what fuck you if you don't like it.

Do you have kids together ??

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank for you clarifying that there are two separate people and that you were looking at the phone bill, not her actual phone.

Sounds like she's not helping trust rebuild if she keeps on lying about Mike. I think you could be direct.

"I saw Mike's number on the phone bill. You tell me that you don't talk to him. So I have to conclude that you are lying to me. I'm not up for that. We have to talk."

Just be calm and up front about it.

I wasn't firm about it, but I did tell her that I was uncomfortable with her seeing the guy she cheated on me with and that I think it would be best for us to start with a clean slate. I didn't want to tell her what to do, I wanted her to make that decision on her own accord.

Right now? When it is of her own accord? She continues the cheating affair with Mike. You guys seem to be in this "cheat-lie-suspect-come clean-repeat" merry-go-round.

I think you might have to get firm about your limit of tolerance so you can get OFF the merry-go-round. That is not telling her what to do. That is telling her were YOUR limit lies. Like "I cannot do Open with you if Mike is going to be part of your network. The whole cheating start thing has put me off. If you include him in your network then I cannot be in it. Do you plan to continue with Mike?"

And then let the chips fall where they may. She could choose to sever ties with Mike. Or not. If not? You can bow out. Not fun to think about parting ways, but neither is never ending merry-go-round.

Open marriage or poly is not the "bandaid" for inherent problems in the marriage relationship. You guys can make new open/poly agreements, but if she cannot keep her Word or makes agreements in bad faith? You can expect her to break those too.

It isn't like these models are somehow "cheater proof." What makes them cheater proof is for the people involved to uphold their agreements. They do not cheat on them. Their talk matches their walk.

Right now it sounds like she says one thing and does another.

Galagirl

 

[Voyager]

Relationships without trust don't work

I see one gigantic problem here that's made up of all the smaller ones mentioned. You say you want to trust your wife, but the fact is that, right now, you don't trust her. You have good reason not to trust her, but that honestly doesn't matter as much as the fact that you don't trust her... because I've never seen polyamory work without the existence of trust. It barely matters why the trust isn't there -- it can't work if it isn't. In fact, I don't know of any relationship, polyamorous or monogamous, which can work without trust.

So I would do some serious thinking about whether you can continue a relationship with this person at all. You know that she lies to you. You know that she continues to lie to you when repeatedly told that you know it's a lie and you would really like her to tell you the truth. (Good using your words on that, btw.) You know that you are sufficiently unbalanced by the lies as to go looking through phone records to try and find evidence of something you already knew for all practical purposes. All of this points to a complete breakdown of trust in your marriage, whether or not she dates Mike, or indeed anybody else at all.

In a healthy relationship, someone who felt uneasy about how his wife had been behaving with Mike would be able to ask her, "Have you slept with Mike?" and be told 'yes' if it happened and 'no' if it didn't happen. And whichever answer they got, they'd be able to accept that answer as the truth and move on, without feeling a need to repeat the question over and over, or look at the phone records, or do anything else to try and get a different answer; because they'd believe the first one. And they'd be correct to believe it, because they'd be with a partner who didn't lie to them, and they'd know she didn't lie to them.

If that's not the way your relationship looks, you've got a problem that polyamory didn't cause, and won't solve. In fact, you've got a problem that cheating on you didn't cause and won't solve. Your problem is that you are involved with somebody who has lied to you repeatedly and therefore you cannot feel trusting about what they say.

You're going to need to find a way to solve that one for this marriage to work, and that's not dependent on whether or not she keeps seeing Mike. It's not even wholly dependent on whether or not she keeps lying to you, although certainly her ceasing to lie to you is a necessary first step toward your being able to trust her. But it's not the only step... the rest of the hard work would need to be done inside your head, even if she never lied to you again after this moment.

You may want to think about whether that combination of events -- her ceasing to lie to you, and your doing the work in therapy to learn how to trust her again -- is likely to happen, and whether you want it to happen. If it's not going to, or you don't, then the marriage is probably over... whether or not you date other people. Polyamory is not a marriage rescue tool -- I learned that the hard way, many years ago.

 

[CTF]

"Keeping at it" until finding the truth implies doing things that are not normally done. Looking through every phone call/text - even through a phone bill - is still snooping just like going through them on a phone.

Not saying op doesn't deserve the truth. He very much does, but snooping isn't healthy in a relationship.

I guess it depends on what "keeping at it" entails. The things you mention, aren't what I would exactly say "aren't normally done". In fact, I'd say they're done quite often. But whether something is "normally done", doesn't speak to whether it's morally appropriate.

But I digress...

I'm vehemently disagree with the assertion that looking at phone records is considered snooping. Especially when it's a joint account. It's no different than looking at bank records, or in the dresser drawers in your bedroom.

That being said, I'd go so far as to say that he would be justified in looking through her phone. He had reasonable suspicion that she was engaging in destructive behavior and lying to the one she claimed to love. And yet, so far as we know, he didn't. The fact is, he has EVERY right to question the truthfulness of the one he's married to. Her lies affect him. When you share a mortgage, a bank account, utilities, parenting responsibilities, and countless other things, you're part of something much larger than just yourself.

 

[Ravenscroft]

I'm mostly with dingedheart here. Sure, there's lies on one side (& "liars will lie, cheaters will cheat," even when there's no justifiable need) & distrust/suspicion on the other (which NOBODY has dared suggest is unfounded).

But overall it sounds like wing walking: using "poly" (okay, fine: "openness") as a PC excuse to skip from one pseudomonogamous relationship to another pseudomonogamous relationship without the awkwardness of being single at any point.

 

[money44]

Thanks for all of the comments and feedback. There's definitely alot for us to think about and work on going forward.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi money44,

It seems to me that it is reasonable to seek the truth ... however, be aware that in this case, you probably won't find the truth. Your wife won't share it with you, and an affair can be difficult to prove. It is no surprise that she wants to continue her involvement with Mike; after all, she has feelings for him at this point. I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, it must be an awful feeling to know that you can't trust your own wife.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.