Vee having sexual experience together, hinge upset

[katja]

I don't know if I'm using the correct terminology here. I have a husband and a girlfriend. My husband is of ten years, girlfriend best friends for many years now, but dating on and off for two. Previously they were never interested in each other. She was a self proclaimed lesbian and he "didn't have time" or "that sounds like too much work" (any relationship outside of ours). She told me she had a dream about the three of us. I relayed that. Things were said back and forth. Things happened tonight.

I was an active participant, but my husband knew I was hesitant to begin with. I talked to him and said that them touching each other during a movie (him rubbing her head and her stroking his arm) made me freak out a little and I was also upset that he suddenly had all the time and attention to give as he's often too busy or distracted for intimacy. He started to go sleep on the couch and said stuff about just she & I having fun. But then he talked to me (reassuringly, or trying to be) and was still handsy. She came back from the other room and was handsy as well. I didn't say any such thing to her but she kept asking if I was okay. I said yes. And I actively participated in all the things and enjoyed them. I know they both wanted more from each other but most of the touching was focused on me. But I now feel totally sick to my stomach. Like want to puke and can't sleep. I'm replaying things in my head and something is constricting in my chest. Tears are rolling down my cheeks. I want to run away or something. Help me please. How can I feel better?

 

[Tinwen]

Accept what you feel. Watch it. They are just emotions. Take your time. Take a day off work if needed. Don't pity yourself, but be with your emotions, go for a walk or do some journaling. You are feeling what you feel for a reason - your feelings are telling you about your values, your limitations, your past traumas, your future desires. Take this crisis as an opportunity to learn about yourself. You're not gonna feel better instantly, but as you work through your emotions, you're getting just a little better at working through emotions, and just a little more mature person in general. I promise.

 

[lunabunny]

Katja, I also have two partners - a man and a woman who are great friends and used to be involved with each other sexually, but aren't any longer.

A few months ago, I went through almost this exact situation you describe. The three of us have been intimate in an online setting less than a handful of times, but the one (and only) time we engaged in sexual activity together in person ended up with me having a major meltdown the next morning. During the scene, I pretty much acquiesced, though I was in a semi dissociative state. I think I was simultaneously too shocked and too numb to actively object. I attempted to participate in a hesitant manner, but my heart was not in it and I didn't get any enjoyment as I was too nervous and upset (though I hid it/was in denial at the time).

Many arguments, in-depth discussions and a generally unsettled period lasting a couple of months followed this event, during which time I found it difficult to trust my partners and their motives, or engage in intimate acts with either.

This was more or less resolved after they both decided their separate relationships with me were the priority, as they don't feel sufficiently emotionally invested in each other (they're close friends but not "in love" or even particularly sexually attracted to each other) to make continuing such activity worth the upset and confusion it caused.

Therefore... my question to you, Katja, is: besides this dream, what do you think was the motivation for you "lesbian" girlfriend to suddenly take a sexual interest in your husband? And do you think your husband's motivations are similar?

In other words: a.) Do you believe that sex with each other (just the two of them) is something they are both wanting now? b.) Do you think they desire and will be content to limit sexual "play" to fooling around with you present and/or participating in threesomes with you involved in each case?

Or c.) do you believe they are developing feelings for each other or even falling in love? If so, how would you feel about that? Is extending your dynamic to a triad something you might consider once you've worked past these current "yuck" feelings, or is such a thing out of the question (and if so, why)? I believe these are all questions you need to ask yourself and your partners in order to work through this situation IF you think this was not simply a "one off" experience.

 

[katja]

Thank you for your reply. Having someone relate actually really helps.

I unfortunately feel like the unsettled months you mentioned may be my reality now. I feel like my joy and peace has been completely stolen. Today was so difficult and I think I will find it hard to be trusting and intimate too. That makes me more upset because I was riding a high of happy with my relationships and the fall weather and now I'm a mess. This probably sounds dramatic, but it's my genuine reaction. I rarely cry and am generally very able to talk things out. Last night has involved crying with dry heaves and feeling a weight on my cheat and churning in my stomach. It was just so much all at once.

The answers to your questions are I'm not sure and neither is she. She said it surprised her. She also wasn't and isn't particularly sexually attracted to him and they didn't have sex per se, mainly things were happening between her and I or her and him will some manual participation from the other one. And so she wanted him to touch her breats which surprised her. And felt like a gut punch for some reason even though I quite like her breasts, of course, and can understand both wanting to touch them and wanting them touched. I was just so shocked that they wanted any kind of sexual attention from each other as they've never expressed it before.

He wanted more things or rather would have done more things without heistation had they been offered. He also says he isn't particularly sexually attempting to her as she is walking around or whatnot, but originally started saying things about watching us together because, as he put it, of course I want to see you and another woman. That's why I maybe found it shocking that there was some stroking and touching between them, neither expressed and interest in that prior. And he further just would have had any kind of sex "because he's a man" and because he's seen threesomes in porn that involve everyone. But all that happened was some hair pulling and light touch, though I can't stop thinking of the things he/they wanted and feeling like I was in the way. They both say this is not at all true and the main motivation and focus of everything was my pleasure. I can say that's truish. She and I got a lot of mutual pleasure and he got a little (from me) and I still feel so unsure of motivations. It seems naive to believe they wanted these things from each other and simultaneously it was all happening for me. I am not jealous in the abstract, talking about other people sexually or attraction or porn, but this hit me hard anyway.

No, they both say anything with each other without me there never even entered their minds. And I don't think either will be initiating threesomes again. I'd probably have to beg for one before they even vaguely considered it after they witnessed my reaction. I'm sure they'd be terrified of a repeat. I am wishing it had all happened differently, over more time, after more conversations and discussions of boundaries and desires, because then I think I may have enjoyed it. Speaking of enjoying it, thank you for your description of how you were feeling and acting. My husband said things today about how much I appeared to be enjoying it (and orgasming several times) so he went to bed happy thinking I had a great time and was struck dumb by my reaction afterwards. It's true I did enjoy parts of it, but I had a sinking sick feeling for much of it and felt like I was playing buffer between them (whether or not that is true). I said to my husband after seeing his hands in her hair and her rubbing his arm (during the movie we were watching clothed before the rest), that I "am not okay with this" and explained why. He went to go to the couch and then she left the room for a while and he came back to talk to me and then was also touching my breasts. She came back and hopped right in touching my breasts and things went from there. I thought he was willing to continue knowing I had reservations. He thought he was going to go to the couch, but when I responded to their touch that I had changed my mind and felt better. He also thought just not touching her a lot was what would make it okay.

No they aren't falling in love. They don't spend a huge amount of time together and when they do it is casual and chummy. I don't think they will. I don't know how I would feel about that but we have talked about moving in in the past so I guess it is a vague possibility. Never thought of it as one before now though as she was lesbian and he had barely enough sex drive and relationship time/attention for me.

Katja, I also have two partners - a man and a woman who are great friends and used to be involved with each other sexually, but aren't any longer.

A few months ago, I went through almost this exact situation you describe. The three of us have been intimate in an online setting less than a handful of times, but the one (and only) time we engaged in sexual activity together in person ended up with me having a major meltdown the next morning. During the scene, I pretty much acquiesced, though I was in a semi dissociative state. I think I was simultaneously too shocked and too numb to actively object. I attempted to participate in a hesitant manner, but my heart was not in it and I didn't get any enjoyment as I was too nervous and upset (though I hid it/was in denial at the time).

Many arguments, in-depth discussions and a generally unsettled period lasting a couple of months followed this event, during which time I found it difficult to trust my partners and their motives, or engage in intimate acts with either.

This was more or less resolved after they both decided their separate relationships with me were the priority, as they don't feel sufficiently emotionally invested in each other (they're close friends but not "in love" or even particularly sexually attracted to each other) to make continuing such activity worth the upset and confusion it caused.

Therefore... my question to you, Katja, is: besides this dream, what do you think was the motivation for you "lesbian" girlfriend to suddenly take a sexual interest in your husband? And do you think your husband's motivations are similar?

In other words: a.) Do you believe that sex with each other (just the two of them) is something they are both wanting now? b.) Do you think they desire and will be content to limit sexual "play" to fooling around with you present and/or participating in threesomes with you involved in each case?

Or c.) do you believe they are developing feelings for each other or even falling in love? If so, how would you feel about that? Is extending your dynamic to a triad something you might consider once you've worked past these current "yuck" feelings, or is such a thing out of the question (and if so, why)? I believe these are all questions you need to ask yourself and your partners in order to work through this situation IF you think this was not simply a "one off" experience.

 

[GalaGirl]

I said to my husband after seeing his hands in her hair and her rubbing his arm (during the movie we were watching clothed before the rest), that I "am not okay with this" and explained why. He went to go to the couch and then she left the room for a while and he came back to talk to me and then was also touching my breasts. She came back and hopped right in touching my breasts and things went from there. I thought he was willing to continue knowing I had reservations. He thought he was going to go to the couch, but when I responded to their touch that I had changed my mind and felt better. He also thought just not touching her a lot was what would make it okay.

It sounds like this group is not communicating clear consent. A lot of assuming things.

And it ended up that you had a thressome you didn't really want to have and now you feel yucky afterward. Like some parts were ok but the overall was nrgh.

I think moving forward you could be clear with both. Maybe something like...

"Look, this happened. We all have a share in the situation making, so I'm not blaming or anything. But I don't want to do that again. Some parts were ok but overall it fell flat for me.

I prefer not to have you guys dating each other or being lovers or sharing group sex like that again. It's too weird for me."

And leave it at that.

You tried something, it didn't fly, so no need to try it again.

Galagirl

 

[katja]

It sounds like this group is not communicating clear consent. A lot of assuming things.

And it ended up that you had a thressome you didn't really want to have and now you feel yucky afterward. Like some parts were ok but the overall was nrgh.

I think moving forward you could be clear with both. Maybe something like...

"Look, this happened. We all have a share in the situation making, so I'm not blaming or anything. But I don't want to do that again. Some parts were ok but overall it fell flat for me.

I prefer not to have you guys dating each other or being lovers or sharing group sex like that again. It's too weird for me."

And leave it at that.

You tried something, it didn't fly, so no need to try it again.

Galagirl

Yeah, it was a problem where they thought they were doing it for me (supposedly) and I thought I was doing it for them.
I don't think they are asking for any of those things. Your matter of fact tone is great, but I couldn't share it. I was completely freaked out. It felt like... learning a secret or discovering cheating. Not because I think it was cheating. But because it gave me the same stomach churning feeling of discovering something about my partners that I didn't know and actively thought the opposite about (that they would want to have sexual contact with each other) and because I was feeling in the way or used. It was really difficult. And because I felt especially ignored by my husband, because I had said I was uncomfortable even if he took it differently, that gave it another layer of bad feeling. I hope I can get to nonchalant or matter of fact about it but I can't imagine that yet.

 

[GalaGirl]

I felt especially ignored by my husband, because I had said I was uncomfortable even if he took it differently, that gave it another layer of bad feeling

He assumed rather than check in. "Earlier you said.... did you change your mind?" would have been nice.

You all have room to improve with communication. Here is opportunity to do so.

Yeah, it was a problem where they thought they were doing it for me (supposedly) and I thought I was doing it for them.

I think you all could STOP doing that with sex stuff. Do things only for yourselves. Not like being selfish, but like "Joyous yes! I would love to!" If you are feeling like "Meh, but I'll do it for you" don't go there.

Keep that only for small stuff like "I don't want any ice cream, but I don't mind stopping so you can get one on the way home from errands" kinda of small stuff. NOT in the area of sex share.

I get the adrenalin response of "deer in the headlights" and kinda freezing and not knowing what to do or how to stop things. It happens. Just saying that if you tend to go that way in a stressful situation or have now learned you go that way during stress, you may have to get better at nipping it in the bud. Because once past a certain point you freeze. YKWIM?

But because it gave me the same stomach churning feeling of discovering something about my partners that I didn't know and actively thought the opposite about (that they would want to have sexual contact with each other) and because I was feeling in the way or used.

Don't be matter of fact. Have a cow in the moment if you have to.

It would be nice to be able to handle every situation with calm or grace but sometimes if the only way to get something out and communicate it is to spill all the marbles? Be ok spilling them. You can always pick them back up later.

You take the situation, handle it as best you can then at that point in time. Then next time you try to do better. You work toward that calm/grace through practice. And at the beginning? Maybe it's anything but graceful but it still gets communicated.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hello katja,

It sounds like a threesome might be something you could enjoy in the distant future, but right now it is out of the question. You body and mind are both ringing loud alarm bells, telling you this is not a good thing for you. So, go back to the way things were before the threesome, stay there and give yourself some time to recover.

And this is a little off-topic but can I ask, do the three of you live apart/together? I thought together at first, but then I thought, oh maybe not. You mentioned talking about moving in, so I thought, at least one person here has their own domicile.

Anyway, I hope you can get feeling better soon.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I'm not a fan of threesomes. They're not for everybody. I lose my mind during sex and I can barely concentrate on myself and one other person.

I can relate to the adjustment of your husband going from "another woman is too much work" to playing with another woman. My husband and I have been together 11 years and for that whole time, his stance was "One woman is more than enough work, thank you very much!" And then at a kink event one weekend, he connected with a woman and they developed an ongoing D/s relationship. While it wasn't "romantic" and therefor not really in the "polyamory" realm, it was an ongoing intimate relationship, he was spending a lot of time with her when I was out of town, and they were texting constantly. And here I am, the 11-year-poly-veteran, beating my poor self up for feeling something because I've been dating people this whole time and he's had to go through it repeatedly. Eventually what helped the most was just giving myself permission to feel a bit weird and occasionally crummy about it, and let myself be a little bit insecure because that's human after all.

The other thing I want to touch on is the whole "but she's a lesbian!" thing. I think people tend to get too hung up on labels sometimes, and sexual identity and attraction are such complicated things. While she might identify as a lesbian, and perhaps has never in her life felt one bit of sexual attraction to a man, on some level she's still just a biological body. Just because she's always identified as a lesbian doesn't mean she isn't physically capable of being attracted to men, it just means she hasn't experienced it enough before to include it in her sexual identity. But at some level, we're all just biological systems that react to physical stimulus with programmed responses. Sex is one of the most primal, basal instincts on the planet. It doesn't care about modern social constructs, feminism and the rise of same-sex relationships, or the awkwardness of having a threesome with one's girlfriend and her husband. It just knows "that feels good, LET'S MAKE BABIES!!!"

So basically y'all had a bunch of sexy biochemistry going on and it overrode your thinking parts for a bit, and it didn't end up being as much fun as you expected. From what you've written, it seems unlikely either of them is going to try anything like that again.

Maybe another strategy for the future is that any time something starts to happen where you're feeling remotely uncomfortable, you could say "I'm feeling really weird right now. Could we pause so I can check in with myself?" Remember that no matter what you're doing and how fun it is, you can always pick it up again later, but that if it gets weird or yucky, you can't undo it.

 

[katja]

I realize this was all a while ago, but I thought I'd update. I appreciate the responses. I really do. I really needed someone else to tell.

He assumed rather than check in. "Earlier you said.... did you change your mind?" would have been nice.

You all have room to improve with communication. Here is opportunity to do so.

. Yeah, I feel like I tried to communicate before during and after and nobody else was willing to as much.

I think you all could STOP doing that with sex stuff. Do things only for yourselves. Not like being selfish, but like "Joyous yes! I would love to!" If you are feeling like "Meh, but I'll do it for you" don't go there.

Keep that only for small stuff like "I don't want any ice cream, but I don't mind stopping so you can get one on the way home from errands" kinda of small stuff. NOT in the area of sex share.

Yeah, that was an oversimplification the way I said that. On their part it was more like, "she's talked about group sex before in general, this will be something she'll enjoy." According to them. And on my part it was some mixture of "maybe this will be ojay, this does feel good" and honestly, unhealthy as it may be, wanting to know exactly what they wanted from each other instead of being the one to stop it and not know. And also I was maybe trying to redeem the experience and feel better, which worked some of the time. Because a lot of it was focused on me. But the sinking feeling I got from seeing them touch as actotal surprise stayed with me.

I get the adrenalin response of "deer in the headlights" and kinda freezing and not knowing what to do or how to stop things. It happens. Just saying that if you tend to go that way in a stressful situation or have now learned you go that way during stress, you may have to get better at nipping it in the bud. Because once past a certain point you freeze. YKWIM?

And that too. And yeah. I don't think this particular thing will ever happen again but yes, part of my reaction was that.,




Don't be matter of fact. Have a cow in the moment if you have to.

It would be nice to be able to handle every situation with calm or grace but sometimes if the only way to get something out and communicate it is to spill all the marbles? Be ok spilling them. You can always pick them back up later.

You take the situation, handle it as best you can then at that point in time. Then next time you try to do better. You work toward that calm/grace through practice. And at the beginning? Maybe it's anything but graceful but it still gets communicated.

Thanks. I was crying/upset a lot for the whole week after. Then I got better. Now it's a month later and I'm mostly better but sometimes intrusive thoughts and insecurities and feelings of betrayal hit me like a ton of bricks anyway and I wish I knew how to be totally over it.

Galagirl

 

[katja]

Yeah I don't think it will be happening again anytime soon and if it did, I don't think it would be with the two of them.

No, we do not all live together. I live with my husband and she lives with her ex-husband (their split had nothing to do with me and he has always, of course, been in the know about us).

Hello katja,

It sounds like a threesome might be something you could enjoy in the distant future, but right now it is out of the question. You body and mind are both ringing loud alarm bells, telling you this is not a good thing for you. So, go back to the way things were before the threesome, stay there and give yourself some time to recover.

And this is a little off-topic but can I ask, do the three of you live apart/together? I thought together at first, but then I thought, oh maybe not. You mentioned talking about moving in, so I thought, at least one person here has their own domicile.

Anyway, I hope you can get feeling better soon.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[katja]

I realize this is an old thread but I think I just couldn't come back to it again for a whole.

I'm not a fan of threesomes. They're not for everybody. I lose my mind during sex and I can barely concentrate on myself and one other person.

I can relate to the adjustment of your husband going from "another woman is too much work" to playing with another woman. My husband and I have been together 11 years and for that whole time, his stance was "One woman is more than enough work, thank you very much!" And then at a kink event one weekend, he connected with a woman and they developed an ongoing D/s relationship. While it wasn't "romantic" and therefor not really in the "polyamory" realm, it was an ongoing intimate relationship, he was spending a lot of time with her when I was out of town, and they were texting constantly. And here I am, the 11-year-poly-veteran, beating my poor self up for feeling something because I've been dating people this whole time and he's had to go through it repeatedly. Eventually what helped the most was just giving myself permission to feel a bit weird and occasionally crummy about it, and let myself be a little bit insecure because that's human after all.

Thanks for that. I do feel like I have every right, especially because I communicated at every stage and was so careful and respectful of everyone's feelings and in this situation I feel like no one bothered to communicate with me about intentions.

The other thing I want to touch on is the whole "but she's a lesbian!" thing. I think people tend to get too hung up on labels sometimes, and sexual identity and attraction are such complicated things. While she might identify as a lesbian, and perhaps has never in her life felt one bit of sexual attraction to a man, on some level she's still just a biological body.
Okay, this is not the case. She was married to a man for a long time. We've had numerous discussions about it where basically she said she was really a lesbian and only attracted to women and I said she can be bi and still mostly attracted to women and she would say no, bi didn't fit, men might as well be robots for as much as they attracted her. And we had multiple conversations about specifically not being attracted to each other's spouses. And we had conversations leading up to this about him watching us or something and she never ever said she would be interested in anything with him (and still insists she isn't despite what happened that night). So it was me not being communicated to before this. And then she was suddenly touching my husband. So it was more about feeling shocked and misled than feeling like someone who identifies one way can't discover attraction for another gender.

Just because she's always identified as a lesbian doesn't mean she isn't physically capable of being attracted to men, it just means she hasn't experienced it enough before to include it in her sexual identity. But at some level, we're all just biological systems that react to physical stimulus with programmed responses. Sex is one of the most primal, basal instincts on the planet. It doesn't care about modern social constructs, feminism and the rise of same-sex relationships, or the awkwardness of having a threesome with one's girlfriend and her husband. It just knows "that feels good, LET'S MAKE BABIES!!!"

Thankfully, they didn't try to make babies but I catch your meaning. And she says it wasn't about him, but just wanting extra touch in that situation where I was getting it, I guess. ​

So basically y'all had a bunch of sexy biochemistry going on and it overrode your thinking parts for a bit, and it didn't end up being as much fun as you expected. From what you've written, it seems unlikely either of them is going to try anything like that again. Maybe it overrode thinling parts. I feel like I was thinking. The sex part was fun but the jealousy and shock and other bad feelings about being between them were not fun. Yeah, they probably won't ever try that again but my husband got drunk one night and joked about texting her to come over and "enjoy you too" and that stung. Of course now he insists it was entirely a joke and he is not at all attracted to her and so on but sometimes it feels naive to believe that. I guess I don't really think he is attracted to her but idk where something like that comes from otherwise. He was teasing me for texting her during our date (when he went to the bathroom). They both have said over and over again that their intentions are not and were never to do anything with each other so now I'm just stuck with trust issues and intrusive thoughts.

Maybe another strategy for the future is that any time something starts to happen where you're feeling remotely uncomfortable, you could say "I'm feeling really weird right now. Could we pause so I can check in with myself?" Remember that no mates what you're doing and how fun it is, you can always pick it up again later, but that if it gets weird or yucky, you can't undo it.

Yeah, I did say to him, "I'm not comfortable with any of this." After the first touching her hair, massaging her shoulders thing. She had gone to the bathroom. And he took that to mean I was uncomfortable with him touching her so he didn't, mostly, except for grabbing her hair while she went down on me to like help. So idk, that didn't really put the breaks on everything but even if it had, I think I still would have been upset at looking over at them just touching when we all had our clothes on. Idk why, but that was the most shocking and upsetting for me. Anyway, thanks for the reply. Somehow I'm still trying to feel better a month later. I don't think of myself as a melodramatic person so I'm not sure why that is the case.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi katja,

Perhaps you're afraid? If so, what is it that scares you the most? What's the worst thing that could happen? If it did happen, how would you cope with it?

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[katja]

Maybe so. I think the fear is not something that could happen though. I'm genuinely not worried about either of them leaving me (closer to the opposite actually, the more I feel like crap about it all, the more I want to not be in any relationships and just retreat).

The fear goes more like this. That I'm accepting mistreatment and disrespect. That I'm a doormat. That I can't trust them. That I'm setting myself up for years of wondering about people's honesty and true intentions and for more hurt.

Hi katja,

Perhaps you're afraid? If so, what is it that scares you the most? What's the worst thing that could happen? If it did happen, how would you cope with it?

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[kdt26417]

Your husband and girlfriend don't respect you? Do you base that just on the (failed) threesome, or have they done other disrespectful things toward you? Have they misled you? just in the threesome, or have there been other times? Is the threesome the only time they've hurt you, or have there been other times? What is their usual pattern of behavior, how do they usually treat you? Your husband has been with you for ten years. What's his track record like? Your girlfriend's been with you for about two years. What's her track record like?

I want to establish a pattern of behavior so that we'll know whether you should break up with them. If they've been treating you badly for a long time, or even just recently but a lot, that's a red flag. However, I don't mean to pry, you don't have to answer my questions (not to me at least), unless you want to.

 

[katja]

It feels to me like disrespect. They wouldn't say that. They would say they thought I was fine and assumed it would be okay.

They are both kind generally and giving and supportive. Never cruel or insulting or anything like that. But, they have both broken my trust.

I have trust issues with both of them that were exacerbated by this experience.

About six years ago I found a message from my husband to an ex. It was never physical, so he says. But I couldn't trust that because he had lied and concealed it. He had even stayed at her house once a while before I found that message (he called and asked me if it was okay that he stayed there when he eas oit of toqn and I said yes). I was heartbroken and it was earth shattering to read as I thought we were young and in love and happy and had good communication. We lived separately, Went to therapy, read a book about affairs/trust together, and eventually got back together. There were other odd moments that made me suspicious before that, but nothing I hsve proof of and all, he says, totally innocent.

My girlfriend had issues with her husband (his infidelity, his temper) and he moved out for a time. She confided in me all her feelings of hurt and disgust and anger and resolve to be without him. Then she slept with him and I found out after she and I had already slept together again. This broke my trust because I didn't know if he was out there contracting things and because I thought I deserved a heads up if she chsnged her mind about him. We talked about it. She promised to keep me on the same page. She lamented about all his shortcomings and told me plans of continuing to live separately. We talked constantly. Then it was suddenly he has moved back in. But we're still not together. Don't worry, she told me, she'd keep me in the loop if that was going to change. Then one day she told me nonchalantly they were sexually active again. We split up. A year passed (we remained close friends, talking daily). He cheated on her several more times and they fought. They split again. We got back together. It's been about three months. Then this happened.

Both of them say that they are not interested in each other. That they touched in a sexual context in that scenario but it was all from the idea of doing something for/with me that they thought I would enjoy. That feels vaguely insulting to me because neither ever had the respect to ask me how I'd feel about them touching each other and make sure I was okay with it. That's what feels like disrespect and makes me afraid of being a doormat who accepts shitty treatment.

This all came to a head in the past few days and I am basically going through a split with both of them that is incredibly painful. My husband and I are "on a break" and I told him I need counseling because I don't trust him or feel respected and I can't pretend to be happy and normal. And my girlfriend and I are maybe split for good. We're not really speaking beyond pleasentries and neither of us are okay. I haven't seen her since last Tuesday. I am sick to my stomach and generally crying all the time and plagued by intrusive thoughts of that night and things they have said. It's not going well over here. Thanks for replying though.

Your husband and girlfriend don't respect you? Do you base that just on the (failed) threesome, or have they done other disrespectful things toward you? Have they misled you? just in the threesome, or have there been other times? Is the threesome the only time they've hurt you, or have there been other times? What is their usual pattern of behavior, how do they usually treat you? Your husband has been with you for ten years. What's his track record like? Your girlfriend's been with you for about two years. What's her track record like?

I want to establish a pattern of behavior so that we'll know whether you should break up with them. If they've been treating you badly for a long time, or even just recently but a lot, that's a red flag. However, I don't mean to pry, you don't have to answer my questions (not to me at least), unless you want to.

 

[lunabunny]

Katja,

Though I've also been through a similar thing (including trust issues with my partners that began a long time ago, and were exacerbated by a threesome that left me somewhat traumatised)... I was all prepared to come on here and advise you to try to work through your fears and put this event behind you - BUT here's the caveat! - only IF your unplanned threesome had been the SOLE factor in sparking your current feelings of doubt, insecurity and general "ickiness" regarding your relationship/s with these two.

Alas, having read your answers to Kevin's questions, I can see that you DO in fact have pre-existing reasons that have caused you mistrust their word. (Both seem to "say one thing, do another").

In the case of your girlfriend, she has claimed you don't need to be afraid she'll start something with your man - because she's a "lesbian". While I hesitate to argue against people's own stated orientation, clearly your girlfriend is NOT a lesbian in the way most people would define it. Bisexual, sure, but not a lesbian.

If she were, then she'd be unlikely to want your husband to touch her during sex play, or wish to touch him in a sensual/sexual manner. Most tellingly of all, once broken up from her cheating husband and already involved with you - a woman she loves - she'd be highly unlikely to go back to sleeping with her estranged male partner on the sly. Yet she did, not once, but on a few occasions.

Your husband on the other hand has behaved "shadily" in the past on at least one occasions, by hiding text messages to an ex-girlfriend (IF in fact texting was all that went on), and if the recent threesome is any indication, clearly has some issues with communication and understanding the nature of clear consent.

The speed and eagerness with which he swept away your objections (in the moments directly after you stated you were not alright with what was going on between your gf and him during the movie), only to begin touching your breasts and initiating a sexual encounter between you - and the fact that your gf conveniently returned at that exact moment and jumped in without seeking any kind of verbal consent - are both definitely yellow flag behaviours for me, verging on red.

It is JUST possible that your partners genuinely got carried away because they thought you were, or would be into it. However, it seems more likely that THEY were horny, or curious, or both, about what it would be like to engage in a threeway with you, and possibly even use it as a gateway to future activity of a similar kind, either with you involved or even just between the both of them. From your previous responses, you seem to think the latter is highly unlikely.

Having read the backstory of this "V", I do think you're wise to take a break from the two of them, even if only temporary, while you attempt to sort out your feelings.

I would want to know:

a.) Are my partners being honest with me - AND with themselves?

b.) Do they respect me, my feelings, and the "sanctity" of the separate relationship/s, as much as you respect your relationship with each of them?

c.) Where does each of your partners see their relationship with you heading, in terms of future commitment, plans to live together or not.

d.) Do both, or either, of your partners have an active or latent desire to include the other/third person in sexual scenarios in the future. If so, how often, and under what circumstances?

e.) If the above turns out to be something one or both of them want, are YOU up for it? Under what circumstances? Or is it a flat-out "no way"?

f.) How would you feel if you found out your partners were developing feelings for each other?

g.) Would you be up for all three of you living together in a triad type situation at some point? (Sexually or romantically)

h.) Would you be up for all three of you living together in a "V" model at some point, with no, or minimal contact between your husband and girlfriend. (i.e. "they" wouldn't have a relationship, but be more like roommates.)

i.) Can you trust BOTH your partners not to lie to you or themselves about any of the above? Maybe you can only trust one. If that's the case, what should you do about it?

 

[katja]

This was really hard to read. It's what I have thought, and accused, but what is so hard to stomach. And they both seem wounded from it and insisting their actions were from a place of thinking I would want or enjoy it and believing I was all good. They admit zero sexual attention to each other, zero desire to pressure me into anything, zero idea that I would or could be so upset, and zero desire before or after to ever be involved with one another. The "this was for you" line from both of them is hard to swallow, but I think they believe that. When pushed, gf says she did want to be touched but just by someone in that scenario. She didn't know all that would happen and didn't anticipate any contact between her and him but was surprised by some of that desire to be touched (but not further sex acts according to her now). She says it was mostly about me and she found it hot to watch and be watched. And she blames, in part, substances (marijuana and three beers). She did ask me somewhere in there when things were happening, "are you okay?" But she never talked to me separately or asked about contact between them.

As for him, yeah. I still feel shocked that he didn't think touching her hair or massaging her shoulders during the movie was a big deal or something he should have asked about first. But he thought he was seeing some level of signals since we invited him to watch a movie and brought home alcohol (something we'd never done before). It still bowls me over that touching her in any way isn't something he would ask me about first. He says even then his intention wasn't that he would do anything sexual with her and it was more of a get things going between she and I move (because we had talked and joked about him watching). That doesn't make sense to me, but that's what he says with conviction. He also says that when I said I wasn't comfortable, he stopped. True. He got a pillow and his phone and went to go sleep on the couch. But, she went away for a while to the restroom and he talked to me and thought "they are going to have sex all night in my bed, maybe I can have some time with her (me) first." So according to him that touching was not intended to statt anything back up between the three of us, it was meant to be alone with me. When she came back, he stopped. She jumped in our bed gingerly and did ask, "should I go back out?" i said no. She started touching me. He sat back and watched for a long while. He said he assumed My I'm not okay with this meant with him touching her and that I was okay with what was happening from there. I was participating, but with a sinking feeling in my gut wondering what was up between them, if something was going to happen, if I was keeping them apart. They both say none of that occured to them and it was all about doing something together with me that they thought everyone would enjoy. He says it would be something together with me because I was much more sexually active with her (because of his interest and low T and busyness and sleep etc). He says he would have done other things (meaning sex acts that involved her) and that he was enjoying watching but that he only would have done them if specifically led by me and her. And only ever in the context of having fun with me, that he's never felt atteaction to her or desire to do anything else. What he did do was grab her hair (and mine) when she was going down on me. That was the extent of him touching her. She says she liked that and at some point towards the end started thinking about wanting him to touch her boobs but that it was all in the contrxt of wanting extra touch in that scenario and not planned or wanted before or after. And that she never ever would have done something with just him and when I went to the bathroom they stayed on opposite ends of the bed and talked awkwardly.

I don't know what to believe. I just can't square it. It sounds gullible and stupid to swallow all that. But I also don't think of either of them as cognitively plotting for any kind of sex with each other. It made me crazy anyway though. Like couldn't be around each other at my house anymore crazy. Jeslousy and that feeling like something could shock me or I don't ever fully know the truth of a situation plagues me all the time. In a weird way I facilitated all the talk about him watching which maybe led them to believe I was interested but I was more like sussing out what they had to say. Still, it all felt like times they could have either put the kabash on it or been more forthcoming about their thoughts and intentions. Both say there was no premeditation though. It's true as far ss planning that night. He didn't know we'd be there with alcohol. We didn't know he'd be home hours early. But it still seems like both or either of them wouldn't have to have it spelled out to them to ask me before touching each other.

Thank you for a thoughtful response. I'm in a bit of hell with uncertainty and wanting to talk to my two best friends and the only people who really know what is going on with me. But I've been pushing them away, especially her. And now she is so full of hurt and shame from things I've said (nothing like name cslling, basically bringing up these doubts of her intentions and past things she's done in a pointed and accusing way) that she cannot talk to me. He stayed up late talking to me about everything after a nursing shift and getting home at midnight and bombed a test the next day. We're all crying, and I feel alternately concerned about them and guilty and then angry and justified because I've been in relative agony for a month while everyone else is getting on with their lives. Two break ups st once is so hard. Kids sre involved (hers are my kids best friends and there's a birthday this weekend). My husband snd I aren't splitting up outwardly so it isn't affecting my kids that way but my intense sadness and just barely pulling myself through the motions probably is. And long term, if I can't feel safe and peaceful again because I'm just waiting for the next time I feel rejected or betrayed....

Questions

A) I would love to know that. How do I?

B) Feeling very disrespected, though I know neither of them would have intended overt disrespect. They didn't throw me out of bed and start fucking or anything. They say they thought they were doing something I was enjoying. But I feel like it's not a difficult thing to know that this had the potential to be scary and painful and required the crazy idea of actually asking me prior how Inwould feel about it.

C) Before this, the plan was somehow eventually we'll work out living together. Without definite details but the desire to work towards that. And some worries (mainly about blending families and money, never about anything like this. Did not occur to me to ever worry about). After all this, in tslks gf said she understood that being off the table, and she wanted me in whatever capacity and for however long I had. Husband never was asking for her to move in, but was okay with whatever made me happy with jokes about needing a MIL apartment to get away from the kid chaos. After all this I said no, I couldn't do it. He said okay. But when we talked about me being lonely when he works a lot, he said maybe she should move in (recently). I was still like no. He said nihht before last in our "i need a break" conversation that his ideal scenario is just me and him. Idk. I think she and I are done after these painful conversations. I don't think she's thinking about moving in with me.

D) No and no and not at all, according to them. My ability to trust that is lacking.

E) No way. I clearly didn't handle it well. I felt something like compersion when she was happily with her husband. I was happy for them on a date or whatever. I feel nothing but sick thinking of her and my husband together in any way.

F) Like I wanted a plane ticket out of my life and they could just have it without me. That's how I felt the day after when I didn't lnow what all of it meant to them.

G) No

H) Used to be.

I) I don't know. I don't know. I think I need counseling to figure out if this is me with trust issues or them abusing my trust and being less than honest.

Katja,

a.) Are my partners being honest with me - AND with themselves?

b.) Do they respect me, my feelings, and the "sanctity" of the separate relationship/s, as much as you respect your relationship with each of them?

c.) Where does each of your partners see their relationship with you heading, in terms of future commitment, plans to live together or not.

d.) Do both, or either, of your partners have an active or latent desire to include the other/third person in sexual scenarios in the future. If so, how often, and under what circumstances?

e.) If the above turns out to be something one or both of them want, are YOU up for it? Under what circumstances? Or is it a flat-out "no way"?

f.) How would you feel if you found out your partners were developing feelings for each other?

g.) Would you be up for all three of you living together in a triad type situation at some point? (Sexually or romantically)

h.) Would you be up for all three of you living together in a "V" model at some point, with no, or minimal contact between your husband and girlfriend. (i.e. "they" wouldn't have a relationship, but be more like roommates.)

i.) Can you trust BOTH your partners not to lie to you or themselves about any of the above? Maybe you can only trust one. If that's the case, what should you do about it?

 

[kdt26417]

Hi katja,

Based on all I've read here so far, I am thinking that your husband and girlfriend have been being partly honest with you, but not completely honest. In part they've been saying stuff they want to believe about themselves, in part they've been saying stuff they want you to believe. At least up until recently, they've truly wanted to be with you, but they've also wanted other things and they knew you would not approve. So as I said, I think they've been being partly honest.

I'm very sorry that you're going through this breakup with your girlfriend, and I know things aren't decided with your husband yet. I guess one question is, can you tolerate life with a man whom you can partly trust, but not completely. You will have to filter everything he says and figure out which parts are true, and which parts are him fibbing to you or himself or both. This will be your life from now on if you decide to stay with him.

This isn't to say people can't change, but it should be said that usually change is very difficult, and takes a long time. It could take decades for your husband to learn to be completely honest. And even then it might be more like 95%, not 100%. If he changes at all, and he may not. I don't mean to discourage you, but I do mean to draw as clear a picture as I can based on what I know. I don't want to mislead you. You may need to break up with him completely.

FWIW, I don't think he is malicious, nor is your girlfriend. They're just a little flaky. Can you live with that? because they may never change, and even if they do, it could take a long time.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[vinsanity0]

This might sound like I'm being dismissive of your feelings. I'm not. I'm just trying to understand.

Why are you catastrophizing this? You agreed to a threesome. In fact, you say you facilitated it. You decided you weren't comfortable with it, which is fine. I don't think you really communicated that discomfort well enough at the time, but they know now.

You don't trust your husband because of a message 6 years ago to an ex that you already knew he was in communication with.

Your GF was a little wishy washy back and forth with her ex, but he is out of the picture now. I understand that hurt at the time. Has that not been resolved? (Edit: I see the ex is not completely out of the picture. Is there some worry there?)

So what is really going on here? I think you need to focus on why you feel these things as opposed to what you are imagining your partners might do. I mean, do you really think your loving husband and your lesbian girlfriend are going to sneak behind your back and ride off into the sunset together because of one threesome?