Vicki's Journey Continues...

[Vicki82]

So Thanksgiving went very, very well actually. I was kind of surprised by that. Henry's dad came but his sister had to bail since her cat was extremely ill. And my mom and her husband came and then a couple of friends, and Charles. We had a delicious meal and some wine and the conversation was fine. Later on, I was hanging out and enjoying dessert and Charles went into the kitchen and helped my mom with the dishes and they were chatting and it was okay. I was really glad about that.

I don't know... it just felt like another sort of validation of our relationship. I know it's all external stuff, but it felt good.

 

[Vicki82]

So this is all kinda stupid but late night stuff rattling in my head so I felt like writing it down. Slightly drunk, had a lovely date night with Henry tonight and he’s snoring away next to me in bed.

Every other Friday is Charles’ night to hang out with a specific group of his friends. Included in that group is his ex girlfriend, I’ll call her Star. They broke up I think two years before I met Charles but they occasionally slept together. When we started dating I told him I was uncomfortable with the idea because Star’s husband had originally been okay with them sleeping together but wasn’t anymore, but I told him it was his decision and just to let me know if they did decide to continue the sexual relationship along with the friendship. We are fluid bonded so the standing agreement is just to notify of sex outside the current configuration. I know they have had at least one fight on the past year because she wanted to fuck him and he turned her down, his choice. I had wanted to at least meet her since I know she is still very important to him, but she hates even the idea of me. He’s a good “hinge”, there’s no back and forth or crap or anything, but she’s made it clear she does not want to meet me or hear about me or anything like that. I don’t like it but of course, her call, so it is what it is and we go on. It’s not interfering in my relationship with Charles, it just makes me sad. She doesn’t know me, or know anything about me. I’m not even a person really and she hates me

So I guess I really shouldn’t be surprised that I was on Facebook tonight and I was looking at pics on Charles’ wall and I tried to click over to hers since it’s her birthday and I know they’re having a party tonight so I wanted to see if there were fun pics. Aaand, she has me blocked I don’t know why it’s bothering me so much, but it is.

 

[icesong]

It’s really weird how social media blocks can be oddly disturbing. Pink!Girl (see early in my blog) still has me blocked which is weird sometimes as there’s a decent number of mutual friends, so occasionally there are random holes in the conversation and I’m like welp, that’s a thing.

 

[Vicki82]

It’s really weird how social media blocks can be oddly disturbing. Pink!Girl (see early in my blog) still has me blocked which is weird sometimes as there’s a decent number of mutual friends, so occasionally there are random holes in the conversation and I’m like welp, that’s a thing.

How does it make you feel? Henry says he would be bothered, too, if he was in my position. So at least I feel a little validated by that. But I also feel like this is stupid, I know that she doesn't like me, so why is a step like this a step too far?

I haven't mentioned it to Charles yet. He's rarely on Facebook anyway so I suspect he doesn't know. And it's not like there is anything to do about it anyway... it would just be more of me telling him how I feel about it.

Although I might not since it's not really important and he has been having some mental health issues lately. He told me he could use some cuddles and cheering up tomorrow, so probably not the day to dump trivia on him.

 

[icesong]

To me a block is one step beyond not liking, it’s more like trying to pretend someone doesn’t exist, that their entire existence bothers you, at least in the case of someone that you don’t interact with. I don’t know how much TV you watch, but have you ever seen the episode of Black Mirror that had “real life” blocking? Where you could just erase someone from your life in real time? For some reason that sticks out to me as this especially cruel thing.

(More on social media in my blog today too, or about to be, as I’ve had some amusing interactions or lacks thereof.)

 

[Vicki82]

To me a block is one step beyond not liking, it’s more like trying to pretend someone doesn’t exist, that their entire existence bothers you, at least in the case of someone that you don’t interact with. I don’t know how much TV you watch, but have you ever seen the episode of Black Mirror that had “real life” blocking? Where you could just erase someone from your life in real time? For some reason that sticks out to me as this especially cruel thing.

(More on social media in my blog today too, or about to be, as I’ve had some amusing interactions or lacks thereof.)

That's exactly it- I feel like Star wants to pretend that I don't even exist. It feels ridiculous since they aren't even dating and hadn't been for a long, long time before I met Charles. It really bothers me and I don't know how reasonable it is to feel that way. I mean, lots of people here do parallel poly and don't want to see their metas, right? I'm sure lots of people don't get along with all of a partner's friends, either. But she doesn't even know me to dislike me.

Yeah, I saw that episode- very recently actually. I can't even imagine how that would actually feel and I'm glad I can't.

I didn't plan on telling Charles how I was feeling but the topic of social media came up, so I did tell him after all. I was a little perturbed because I felt like he didn't really *get* my feelings. He said that since he knows why she feels the way she does, it makes sense to him and she was probably protecting herself from seeing my name and getting upset. Apparently, he says, she gets crazy jealous (his words) and it's one of her flaws. But he seemed not to really get why it bothered me- just that is the way she is. And I don't really know what I expected. Maybe some validation? Because it's not like I expect him to do anything. I wouldn't want him to lose a friendship that obviously matters to him very much. But at the same time I feel like I've done something wrong when really, all I've done is exist. I don't know how to reconcile this for myself.

When it kept bothering me, I asked him if this meant that there were going to be part of his life where I simply wasn't welcome because he didn't want to rock the boat with her. He asked me why I thought that or what was I referring to, and I pointed out that while I include him in pretty much my whole life, that he doesn't often invite me into his world. He has before, and I've met some of his friends, but I've noticed that he'll say he's doing X event sometimes and then doesn't invite me along. It made me a little sad but I didn't really want to say anything because I figured maybe he didn't feel the same way about me that I do about him, or that he didn't want that kind of relationship.

We talked about it yesterday and I feel like maybe I still don't understand his perspective on that. I find that sometimes we have a really hard time understanding each others' perspectives, and that worries me a little. We think sometimes in very dissimilar ways.

Anyway, he told me that the reason he hasn't been inviting me along to stuff is that sometimes he didn't think it was a big deal, and sometimes he feels so stressed out from "cat herding" and trying to get things all planned out that adding another person feels exponentially more stressful, especially when he is insecure about everyone getting along.

My first reaction to that was really negative so I had to ask him to explain further, because what I was hearing was that having me around would add stress, or that he worried that his friends wouldn't like me or that I'd cause problems or something. I'm still not sure I really understand what he means, although I think I trust him when he says it's not what I feel like I heard.

I at least do feel like he heard me about this, although he expressed (and rightly so) that he wishes I had brought it up earlier so that he knew what I wanted. He said he didn't realize that stuff like that was so important to me. And then I had to tell him that I thought it but I felt too vulnerable saying it, because I didn't want to lose what we have together if what I was asking for was too much. I was "okay"... just wanted more, you know? And I didn't want to risk it. I know that I can tell Henry anything and not worry about it... but you can't really compare and navigating two serious relationships like this is not a thing I'm really experienced in and I'm still trying to find my way.

icesong, that's interesting about MartialArtist. I'd be curious too.

 

[Vicki82]

I had a hard time sleeping last night (surprise surprise, I have a ton of sleep disorders anyway) and so found myself doing some more processing.

I think a big part of why I'm still upset even after broaching the issue with him is that I didn't feel validated. Actually, it felt much more like he was validating Star's actions/feelings rather than my feelings. I don't need him to agree with me that what she is doing is wrong (actually, he did describe it as a flaw anyway), but just that he understands how I am feeling and why it bothers me. I think this will make me feel seen and heard, whereas now I feel either like he doesn't understand why I'm upset or else that he thinks it's not important.

I mean, I'm still upset about the actual issue, but I'm processing that. I am not really sure how upset I *should* feel though. And yes, I know the whole logic behind that I feel how I feel and that's okay, and different people will feel differently and that's also okay. But I feel like I don't really have a yardstick to go by. I mean, surely even in mono relationships people sometimes dislike their friend's partner. That shouldn't need to be a huge deal, right?

But this situation feels like it has a little more meat on it. First of all, they did date, even though the relationship ended 2 years before Charles and I started going out. They're still very close friends. And she apparently literally can't manage to hear my name without freaking out and seems to be trying to pretend that I don't exist. That feels a bit more intense than just dislike. Especially since she doesn't know me to dislike!

So I really don't know how to feel. One of my friends suggested I think on how it makes me feel that someone who says he loves me is okay with one of his close people wanting to pretend I don't exist. And it bothers me, but on the other hand I wouldn't want him to lose a connection that is important to him just because she has really poor coping skills or whatnot.

I get that it's two separate issues. How I feel about it, and what I want done about it. I am pretty sure the answer to the second part is nothing. She's entitled to feel how she feels, even if it makes me feel crappy. I wouldn't want to feel excluded because of her, though, and it becomes sticky if I don't get invited to stuff because of her. I don't know if that has been the case, and I did mention that. As for my feelings... I know how I feel- I just don't know if I'm being unreasonable for feeling how I do and should work on letting them go. I've been bothered for a long time about how she feels about me, but the feeling like she wanted to erase me from his life and pretend that I don't exist? That put it over the top for me.

I thought a little bit more on why I was afraid to bring up my wants, too. I have to admit, that it surprised me a little because normally I'm quite up front about what I want. But this relationship really has been different for me.

I understand a whole lot more than just the name of the concept of not putting relationships in a box, now. I had been looking for a new relationship but I think I had the idea that I was looking for a secondary type thing. Someone I'd have feelings for and enjoy hanging out with, but nothing too serious. How could it be serious? I'm married, right? I've had lots of secondary type relationships. They were fun, I enjoyed them very much and loved my partners, but it seemed to go to a certain point and then stayed there.

Well, I don't know if this relationship has found its level yet, but it's sure as hell not where I thought it was going to be. This is the first time where I've really wanted something I'd call "serious" with another partner. Where my feelings are that intense, and it's not just lust/NRE/whatever. Where I want whatever degrees of life entwinement will work. I kinda didn't expect any of that, and it's been new/difficult navigating it. Charles wasn't looking for something like this either- it kinda just happened. But neither of us wants to let it go or dial it back.

But then it has kicked up security issues for me. I know it's weird to think like that, because my ex husband and I divorced after nearly ten years married. Nothing in life is secure. But I really do trust Henry completely, and I don't worry about losing him. I don't mean that in the way of not investing in our relationship, because I put in that effort every single day. I mean that I feel safe with him- that I can be wholly myself, and no matter what he will still love me.

I don't even know how you get those things in a non-relationship-escalator relationship. He asked me if time would solve that, and I genuinely don't know if it's just a time thing. Short of the typical escalator milestones, which aren't really a thing here, I don't know how to feel more committed. Or maybe to feel like I'm more committed, actually, if that distinction makes sense. Even more so- to feel like HE is more committed. And committed to what, exactly? We haven't planned for any kind of shared future. It's only been a year and that would be way premature anyway. My life is pretty stable since I have to live where I do- I'm not going anywhere. His is still in flux while he searches for a good job in his field. So it could happen that he has to move away, and I won't do LD anymore.

I don't know. I know this is really rambly. Life doesn't come with guarantees. But the point I was getting at is that it sometimes makes me afraid to ask for what I want. What I have with Charles is already pretty amazing. I don't want to risk it by asking for something he doesn't want to give, if that was the case. And I know the general thought is, better to know than not to etc, but I think maybe sometimes that isn't always the case. If I am genuinely happy with what we have, I don't want to ruin it. And unlike other relationships where something was missing, I don't feel that here. It's just that I find myself wanting _more_. I would genuinely be okay with what I have now, or maybe even less, as long as I knew so I could change my expectations. But I don't want to lose him because my feelings run too high.

 

[icesong]

(lemme know if I comment too much but sometimes your struggles sound like mine with Artist as of a few years ago, tbh, soooo)

First off, yes, Star doesn't personally dislike you, doesn't need to. My impression is that she liked having Charles as a, if you'll pardon the expression, "dick under glass" and she sees you as the person that broke that glass, so she'd prefer you didn't exist. I mean, I know they're friends too, this is definitely a simplification, but I think it's totally about her and it's easiest to just ignore it and her.

But more important is your comment about Charles not inviting you into his world - I sometimes feel the same way about Artist, but I've realized that I'm actually *happier* less life-merged with him. I have a friend group that hangs out weekly, for instance - he's met them all, they like him and vice versa, but it wouldn't make sense for him to start showing up at Sunday night dinners on a regular basis because it's just not quite his crowd and *that is fine*. I can tell him the fun things that people say, he can tell me the interesting updates on his friends and other partners, without having to actually Be Present for all of them and we can still be part of each others world that way. Hell, we have more to talk about that way ;-)

My point here is that this is definitely a "only way out is through" kind of thing - I worried so so very much about asking for more etc with Artist - ad nauseum here on my blog really - but really this year (after four years together) that has settled down so VERY much.

A question though, to ponder - and again I say this because I've been in what sounds like a very similar place - can *you* be happy with hearing "no, I don't want more life entanglement, I love our relationship as it is?" As the "I'm afraid if I ask for more I'll lose what we have" points to an idea that you wouldn't be? Or is it just that you think he'd run away if more was on the table as available?

 

[Vicki82]

icesong, please comment all you like. I know the blogs are supposed to be thinking out loud, but if I didn't want to hear feedback, I wouldn't post it. I really appreciate other perspectives even when they are uncomfortable in the moment.

I have read through your blog post, but maybe I should do it again. That might be a helpful thing for me.

I guess a bunch of things have happened in a short window. It has become very obvious that Charles and I communicate in totally different ways. I've seen the recent issue not as its own separate issue, but an escalation of previous times where we have had difficulties communicating.

Since it was obvious that he didn't understand what I needed, I wrote out what I thought was a very clear email with specific details of what I need from him. We agreed he would respond when we had our next date in a couple of days. I really thought that we were going to get through it and it would get better, that maybe this would be a better method of communication.

But it looks like it goes deeper than that. It's not just the method of communication; it's that I think we are speaking totally different languages. He doesn't understand my need to be validated and commented that his first reaction is that it's "obvious" that he knew I was upset. I told him that clearly it's not obvious, if our interaction left me feeling dismissed.

Henry had suggested I ask Charles if he's on the spectrum at all, because it sounded like he just didn't score well on emotional intelligence. And that might be a thing. Charles is not, but it seems the vast majority of his friends are, so the social patterns he's been learning are likely geared in this regard.

It really left me worried for the future of our relationship in general, because this isn't about Star or how she feels or doesn't feel about me. This is much more about how we will be able to communicate with each other when there is a hiccup.

So that was the bad part. The good part is that he was clearly taking my upset seriously this time, that he understood that there was a big problem, and that he was clearly willing to make an effort to try and bridge the gap. He came over on Monday, which isn't a usual thing for us, because he wanted to talk and see how I was doing. I feel like maybe he got it this time? That even if the way I need him to respond when I am having big feelings feels foreign to him, that it is what I need.

Henry recommended a book to him, and he's already gone looking for it. Something about emotional intelligence, so hopefully it will help us connect a little better.

He's also made a point of saying that he wants to build in more time for us to be together, that he thinks that one day a week isn't enough for us to invest in our relationship and learn each other. I hope this will be a beneficial thing for us.

icesong, I think I would be okay with most things as long as I know how to adjust my expectations, and I don't/haven't really know how to do that at this point. But I don't really feel secure in the relationship at all, so I worry that asking for what I want could have the outcome of ending the relationship when I would have been okay settling for less if I knew that was all he wanted. I am used to being told that I am too much, and I don't want to push someone away for that. If it's needs, then I'm okay with that, but not just for wants.

 

[Vicki82]

Well, things have started to deteriorate again. I think we just can't communicate on some matters. I really think this gap might be unbridgeable.

Charles texted me yesterday and said he was talking to his mom and apparently his dad and his grandfather both have a similar issue where they don't do emotional validation. His mom told him that she just lets it slide now because that's the way they are. He suggested I talk to her about that. I told him that I'm not comfortable having that discussion because it's very personal and because I feel differently. Perhaps emotional validation isn't as important to her as it is to me, and that's fine- but I am feeling far too vulnerable to feel like I have to defend the way I feel, and to my partner's mother at that.

Then he also mentioned he was chatting with his roommate who is on the spectrum, and the roommate said he figures this is "normal guy behaviour". I just got so frustrated at this point because it feels like he's just finding more ways to dismiss what I'm saying. I truly believe that he doesn't see it that way, and that he probably thinks he's doing what I want by seeking out guidance about the issue. But the outcome is that I am feeling even more invalidated and unhappy.

I broke my own rule and sent him another email last night because I was already feeling myself drawing back emotionally, and there's not much coming back from that if I let myself go. I feel like they were both bad options. I was frustrated and despondent because I just can't see this working if he can't understand how important this is to me. I love him, and I enjoy his company and we have great sex and I could make a nice long list of things... but I can't be emotionally intimate with him if he is going to be so insensitive to my needs even when I've been crystal clear about what I need from him.

I told him that this was a dealbreaker for me. That it's not that he is doing something wrong, but that we might just be incompatible if I need something from him that he can't or won't give me. I told him that I don't want to break up but I'm starting to feel like this can't work between us. I asked him to please take some time to think about what he's willing to put into this relationship and if he even wants it to continue, because I don't want to keep having to process over the same issue. I asked him to think about it, or just tell me I'm too much for him and let me go.

That was in the middle of the night yesterday and I haven't heard from him yet today which is unusual for us, so I assume he read my message. I've been pretty upset all day and I haven't really slept in days. And of course it's Friday so he's with Star tonight anyway. I wonder if he's said anything. I am sure she'd be gloating at least internally. None of this really matters because it's all irrelevant if we can't make it work between the two of us; if it wasn't this issue with her, it would have been (and has been) something else. But right now I'm just hurting an awful lot.

 

[Magdlyn]

To be honest, I really think this is more your problem than Charles' problem. It seems to me he is bending over backwards to reassure you, by talking to his mother and a friend about how to validate your feelings. But you're going to keep feeling this way no matter how hard he tries, until you change your own point of view.

It seems his "friend" Star wishes she was still his gf, not just a "friend." If they have a standing weekly date, maybe she wishes it was a romantic/sexual date. Did Charles break up with her?

It sounds like she is very envious of the "great sex" you and Charles are having. She used to do that with him; she knows how satisfying a lover he is. I think it's understandable she has difficulty being your FB "friend," and doesn't want to hang out with you irl either. It rubs salt in her wound.

You really don't have to see every FB pic of any shindig she and Charles attend. It's not exactly your business. Sometimes certain friend groups shouldn't merge. It's OK, really.

Charles is trying to not add to Star's distress by keeping you two apart. Maybe he's even afraid if she saw you, she'd say or do something hurtful to you. I think it's a bit immature of you to want to be invited to everything Charles does, even the things where Star will be present. He's trying to be a good friend to her, and a good bf to you. I think you could try to put yourself more in their shoes and not take it all so personally.

 

[Vicki82]

Hi Magdlyn,

Thanks for replying, I appreciate it. With the specific issue about Star, I agree this is more my problem with the situation. I am bothered by how she is treating me. She is not (and never has been) my FB friend- she's never interacted with me at all, actually. I agree that it is her prerogative not to want to interact with me. I am hurt by the pretty much denial of my existence, but it is what it is and I'm sure I'll get over it.

I have no desire to be invited to all the things he does. Not only am I not interested in it all, but I don't feel the need to always be around. What I don't want is to be specifically disinvited from things because she's there. If he throws a party, for example, I feel like it should be her choice not to attend rather than me not being invited, if she thinks she can't behave appropriately.

As for who broke up with whom, I'm not sure. Charles describes it as depressive issues on both sides and the relationship seemed to naturally tail off. He used to live with Star and her husband, although the situation was a little wonky at that point because as I think I mentioned previously, the situation was mutually consensual in terms of a V for quite a while, but at some point Star's husband requested that they become monogamous again. I am not aware if this was before or after Charles moved out. I do know that Star has occasionally cheated on her husband in the past with Charles, and I know that early in our relationship she asked him to have sex with her and he turned her down (which was nothing to do with me, if that's something you are wondering- I only heard about the aftermath). He tells me they had been broken up for nearly two years by the time he met me.

But the issue to me is not really about Star at all- I brought up that specific example just to illustrate how the communication issues have been working. The crux of my issue at this point is the lack of validation that I get from Charles. To me, that is extremely important. I need to feel like I have been heard and seen. I am not asking for Charles to agree with how I feel, just to validate that I feel that way. It feels like something extremely basic to me. Heck, as a teacher who works with children, it's one of the first things we are taught in terms of making people feel understood (which is a major aid in de-escalation), to say that we see they are feeling/experiencing X. To mirror back to them and ensure that we are understanding. That one step seems to solve so much and help people feel better, even if strictly speaking it accomplishes nothing on paper. In my case, it helps me feel emotionally close and safe with someone.

I have lots of friends who I disagree with and who disagree with me on things. But we manage to stay close primarily because we still make a point of simply acknowledging what we see. To me, it builds intimacy and connection on a very basic level.

This is the part that seems to be at the crux of my problems with Charles. We've had similar communication failures in the past and I've realized that at the most basic level, it comes down to his failure to either validate what I'm saying or to ensure he actually does understand what I'm saying. And on my end, it's putting a wall between us because I don't feel emotionally safe sharing vulnerabilities anymore.

So if we remove the part about Star, I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts otherwise. Do you still think I am overreacting? I feel like this is a basic need I am advocating to be met.

 

[icesong]

I’m curious whether his failure to make you feel heard/seen is based in 1. Charles not _trying_ at all to make you feel seen or 2. Charles _trying_ to meet your need and failing or 3. Something else?

I mean, I understand that this is a basic need / response to you but it is, like 900% not basic to most people (especially non-parents who weren’t raised this way, and who haven’t had to learn the skill to either professionally or personally deal with children on a regular basis).

Still, though, there’s a massive difference in “not being good at it (yet)” and “not even trying to do it”.

 

[Vicki82]

I’m curious whether his failure to make you feel heard/seen is based in 1. Charles not _trying_ at all to make you feel seen or 2. Charles _trying_ to meet your need and failing or 3. Something else?

I mean, I understand that this is a basic need / response to you but it is, like 900% not basic to most people (especially non-parents who weren’t raised this way, and who haven’t had to learn the skill to either professionally or personally deal with children on a regular basis).

Still, though, there’s a massive difference in “not being good at it (yet)” and “not even trying to do it”.

Is this really such a foreign concept to most people? I'm surprised. Most of the people I deal with seem to understand it either naturally or as a learned process. All of my friends do it and not all are parents. It feels like an extraordinarily basic way to relate to other human beings- to let them know they've been heard and seen.

 

[icesong]

In my observation, yes - I mean, I agree that once you figure out how to do it and that it’s something that significantly helps relationships it IS basic, but it was definitely something that I had to consciously learn how to do, and I mean, look around this board / around other places where people discuss their relationships (FB or reddit poly boards or even generic relationship boards) and the ability to do this seems very, very, very rare.

 

[Magdlyn]

In my observation, yes - I mean, I agree that once you figure out how to do it and that it’s something that significantly helps relationships it IS basic, but it was definitely something that I had to consciously learn how to do, and I mean, look around this board / around other places where people discuss their relationships (FB or reddit poly boards or even generic relationship boards) and the ability to do this seems very, very, very rare.

I agree with this. I think it's rare to have this communication skill. I learned it specifically when I was a new mother and a La Leche League Leader, from books, from my mentors, and in practice. It can even seem awkward at first. "Mirroring" is rare. Taking turns speaking, and asking the other to repeat back what they heard... no, I don't think it's common, especially with men.

Instead people will deny your POV and immediately shove their own opinion onto you.

I remember a specific incident with an old friend. I hadn't seen her for a while. We were both new mothers of toddlers. Along with another friend, we were discussing getting ice cream. But my friend's kid was had a dairy sensitivity. So he was fussing that he wanted ice cream too.

His mom would say, "Well, you can't have ice cream, you can get a lollipop." "But I want ice cream!" "You like lollipops!" "I want ice cream!" Crying ensues.

Finally I said to the kid, "You want ice cream." He immediately stopped crying. He cheered up. He said, "Yeah..." and smiled a little. He was ready to go back to playing. But then my friend (stupidly) said, "OK, Johnny, you can get ice cream just this once."

Argh! That wasn't the point. He was actually going to be fine not getting the damn ice cream. He just wanted us to hear he liked and wanted it.

This responsive listening does not come naturally.

 

[Vicki82]

I guess I just don't get it. I seem to surround myself with people who are higher on the emotionally aware spectrum, I suppose. So this is just outside my experience.

So, that notwithstanding... how do you solve an issue like this? Because it's something I need in a relationship.

 

[breathemusic]

Curious to know if he truly understands that what you're asking for is generally for him to confirm that he hears and understands your feelings even if he doesn't agree in a general sense.... or is it possible that he's so focused on the Star issue that he's more trying to figure out how to resolve that?

If he understands that it's a more general issue, then I think it goes back to the question of whether he is actively trying to do better at that and willing to do the work, or if he's not even willing to do the work.

If he's trying and failing, then it might be worth more discussions about what he's trying and how he's trying and for him to continue trying to learn. Especially if he's only just now hearing and learning that this is a general issue between the 2 of you and he hasn't had long term knowledge that this is a repeat problem.

For you, it's an ongoing thing and you feel like you've been dealing with it a long time and that it isn't changing. But maybe for him this is a new problem and he's only been working on it for a very short time.

 

[icesong]

So, that notwithstanding... how do you solve an issue like this? Because it's something I need in a relationship.

I think it depends on how much emotional labor you want to put into it - like, he could probably learn it if you sort of “called your shots” on a per-discussion basis (ie, I am having this issue, I would like X type of response from you) for a while and eventually it’d come more naturally to him. I certainly have to do that with one of my partners (“please don’t try to fix the problem, I’m looking for sympathy right now” kind of thing - bet you can guess which one).

 

[Vicki82]

I had a regularly scheduled appointment with my counselor yesterday, so she was helpful in sorting out my thoughts. She's known me for a long time- she was my marriage counselor with Mark, so she's seen me through a lot of changes.

She gave me a book recommendation for Charles which she said would be more accessible than the one Henry picked out. It's called How To Be An Adult In Relationships, if anyone is interested. She also pretty much had his responses to the things I said pegged- i.e. she said that probably made him feel like a failure, and yes, those are the exact words he's said back to me. So I am hopeful that she might be able to help me/us navigate this together, and she said it would be fine to bring him along to my next session.

She also gave me some language that she thinks will be easier for him to understand. She told me to tell him that when I present with an emotional situation, to consider himself a first responder at the scene of an accident. A first responder does not try to clear the street, or conduct an investigation into how the accident occurred, or to repair the car, or do surgery on the victims. A first responder is literally just there to help stop the bleeding- that's it. Once the bleeding stops, then a more accurate assessment of what needs done can occur. But it's still not the first responder fixing everything!

She also pointed out, and she's right, that I can't expect major changes overnight. He's been taught to think this way, and that's going to be the default for a while. So she suggested that if I'm going to go into an emotional issue, to try and tell him up front what I'm looking for in response, as a reminder. Obviously that won't work all the time if I'm really overwrought, but hopefully we can catch it more often so that we're not frustrating each other. (lol icesong- I think I can guess!)

She asked me what I would do if he didn't change from how he is now, and it was interesting putting it into specifics, because it's not a whole lot different in many ways than what it is now, except maybe for the obvious one. I'd have to take my heart off the line because that's just too painful for me. I would probably need a few months to detach emotionally. Then I'd still be okay hanging out with him, doing kink, and having sex, but a lot less often. Maybe once or twice a month instead of once or twice a week. But with him being so strongly demisexual, Charles isn't interested in that type of relationship. Which is maybe a little odd because we weren't looking for something that feels this serious, but the feelings were too big for artificial constraints.

Either way, I'm feeling more positive than I was, and hopeful that we might be able to work this out. I don't want to lose him, but I know this is something that I need from him. I hope we can find a way to meet in the middle somewhere.