Wanted: Advice about an affair that may not wait

[BraverySeeker]

You're right, dinged, Steve's fight is a futile one. Callie has even pointed this out, I'm told. And regardless, he's still going down swinging. I can't say I blame him, or wouldn't do the same in his shoes. It's only been a few days since she laid it all out there for him. But she can cite many much older instances when she tried to get through to him, and he either didn't hear her, or chose not to. Now time's up, from her standpoint, and he's still trying to turn back the clock.

Meanwhile, I'm flush, literally, off a breakthrough I can't precisely articulate. If it has to have a label, "ecstatic compersion" might fit. In the throes of an (insert your assumption here) with Val this morning, I was overcome by the state of mind I've reached over the past few weeks: I'm more in love with my wife and best friend than ever, and I'm floored by the realization that she has so much love to give and deserves all the love she receives. I'm not only not threatened, I want her to pursue this other relationship, because it has opened her up to loving me more and prompted us to communicate like we never have. I may be jacked up on her NRE for Callie, but if not for that we wouldn't have so much NRE of our own, connecting more profoundly than at any point in our nearly 25+ years together.

That she can fall in love with someone else and consequently feel more, not less, love for me is nothing short of earth shattering.

At this point she's not even able to truly "be" with Callie in any way other than as a supportive friend. But I no longer fear the point at which they can freely be together, to whatever extent they wish. I don't even feel like it would be "sharing" Val, so much as a chance to bask in the glow of her heart's full potential. Gawd, that sounds corny and naive and ridiculous. Call me on it if you must, but I'm at a plateau right now that has me feeling secure, content, in love and loved.

Val, nevertheless, feels in some way responsible for what may be Callie's inevitable divorce. I don't think she is. But if she is, then shouldn't she also take responsibility for making my heart grow three sizes larger, too?

My intention here is not to paint myself as the mirror image of Steve, and claim that I am the better man. I was him once, and my heart was shattered. But if not for that heartbreak, I wouldn't have had to piece myself back together and learn to embrace the fluidity of love found and lost.

Yes, a part of me fears a dissolution of my marriage, in some distant dystopian future, no less devastating than his. Val and I may be on an unprecedented high right now, but I don't think we'll crash and burn. After all, I've learned not to take her and her needs for granted, nor will she assume I'm okay with everything, unless she asks. That's essential in any healthy relationship, let alone one that involves more than two people.

 

[Arrowbound]

Polyamory is edge play of the heart, dude.

It's the horrible-wonderful-horrible-wonderful thing. "Am I crazy? I must be crazy. I am not crazy. But I am crazy!"

Love this, GG. I wanna put it on my bedroom wall!

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Yes, she's known about her feelings a long time.

But I meant Steve. He just learned of her feelings in a way he cannot deny or ignore. So him making a rash decision about his marriage while he could be emotionally flooded would not be wise if he ultimately wishes to engage with her and actually do repairs.

It doesn't sound like Steve is being given the chance to make any decision about his marriage. It sounds like Callie tried to get through to him, and he didn't listen until it was too late. She's delivered the death blow: I want out. Ship has sailed, better luck next time.

Frankly, I don't disagree with her. If he won't even go to counselling when she says "Come to counselling or I'm leaving" then he's never going to do what he needs to do. To me, that demonstrates his lack of commitment to the relationship. If you won't even step up to the plate when she has one foot out the door, what hope does she have that he'll ever improve if she turns around and walks back in?

And then, she sees what kind of husband BraverySeeker is. She can see with her own eyes that there are guys out there who will do what they have to in order to hold on to what they love. BraverySeeker could have just as easily blown a gasket, tried to put the kibosh on it, and made a big mess of things. He even said he relates to Steve. But though he denies it, he is being the "model husband" as far as Callie is concerned: not only has he been a loving and supportive partner these 25 years, but now that he has to deal with something he never expected, he's handling it like a pro. So can you blame Callie for looking at her useless lump of a man, and saying to herself that she deserves better?

 

[GalaGirl]

So can you blame the gf for looking at her useless lump of a man, and saying to herself that she deserves better?

Of course she deserves better! I totally agree. I think in general we're at the same conclusion, even if I express myself differently than you. Your focus to me appears to be on Callie. My focus was there initially, but has since shifted to Steve's behavior.

At the beginning, Callie's behavior was questionable, to me. She's since straightened up to fly right in polyship with good ethics.

I come from the perspective that if she's been ringing his courtesy-clue phone all along about her needs not being met, and she's at her limit, and it's at the place of "come to counseling, or we are done," good for her. She was tempted to cheat because her needs were unmet, but pulled back from that to sort it out and move ahead with honesty and intention.

So, three players in this polyship are now flying with some ethics in place, even though they had a wobbly beginning. Good on them as a trio!

Now I'm looking at the dark horse fourth player, Steve. He's been presented with information and a final limit. Now he has to make a move and choose his next behavior. I do not think he ought to make a rash decision about it. That would be reactionary behavior, pushing away the yucky feelings (and Callie with them) because he does not want to feel yucky. But my impression so far is that's been his pattern all along. Do not want to deal? Stiff-arm it away. Poor conduct. Boo.

The thing that may help him is doing something different: going to marriage counseling. That would be him choosing ACT WITH INTENTION. It's not guaranteed to save the marriage, but I don't see how being rash about his emotional management is gonna help him.

We cannot help how we feel -- yummy feelings or yucky feelings. We can only help how we choose to behave in response to those feelings. We can choose to "react" or choose to "act with intention." We could even have a reaction initially to startling news, and then get it together to act with intention next. In the end, that is still choosing to act with intention. But just a reaction here is no good.

If Steve goes with a rash reaction: "Waaah! No! I don't want to deal!" and shuts down and pushes the whole thing away, and Callie with it, as the "source" of the yucky feelings, that attitude will cost him his marriage, and rightly so, because he's been ignoring tending to it all this time. She cannot be expected to be happy with his chronic lack of responsiveness to her wants and needs. That's not a good kind of relating back and forth in a marriage.

The "source" of the problem is not "We have problems because she is making me feel yucky!" as much as "We have problems because of my unwillingness to engage appropriately and problem-solve with my partner."

It's sad. But hardly uncommon -- a non-responsive partner not wanting to own their poor behavior. Sigh.

BraverySeeker, I do not know if Callie is reading this thread, but I hope she gives herself the pat on the back for trying to be honest and forthright here. She's trying to fly right, even if Steve is not willing to give her the right to responsiveness.

 

[Vixtoria]

I am going to offer another side of this. You see, I have been in the position of the woman who's struggling with her marriage. I had thought that the years of trying to 'get through' to my husband how unhappy I was had been enough. I got to the point I just could not take it anymore. I called the divorce card into play. Like this husband, mine freaked out. He suddenly realized it was serious. He was willing to 'do what it took' to save the marriage.

I wish I could say that it all went swimmingly from there, but it didn't. You see, it was all about communication. Yes, I was unhappy for a very long time. Yes, I had thought I made that clear. However, I hadn't. See, we didn't have the communication skills we have since gained. Oh, I was frustrated beyond the telling of it that once we started working on communication a lightbulb went off for him (and for me). Why didn't this happen earlier? Why didn't he understand before? It wasn't only that he didn't get it; it was that I wasn't expressing it well.

So even if Callie has been expressing how unhappy she is, we don't know how she's been expressing it. Let's be honest, until you learn communication skills, what seems 'so obvious' to you, is not to others. So I just don't feel comfortable painting this other couple in the light of: "She's done all she could. She's been open and honest, and he just didn't get it, and it's too late now. Oh well, move on!"

There is now a sense of urgency with Callie, because there is another relationship involved. A sense of urgency for her, not for him. Sure, now he understands that there are issues in their relationship, and maybe they won't work it out. However, it's not as easy as she told him and he ignored her. Communication skills are hard to learn. Believe me, I wish I'd had them sooner! Maybe then my husband would have understood sooner, we would have worked on things sooner, and it wouldn't have been so hard. But I have to take some responsibility for the fact that me telling him my issues was not communicated well, and so he didn't understand.

I do think they should seek counseling. I don't, however, think that after four days, him not jumping on that bandwagon means he isn't "acting with intent." My husband hated the idea of therapy. Never liked it. Still didn't when we decided to try it. But we did try it. It did help, both with some of our issues and with communication. It took time to get there, more than four days.

Do I believe that Steven has not been meeting Callie's needs? Yes. I just don't believe she has been calmly and effectively communicating that to him for YEARS, and he is only now getting it because she wants a divorce. More likely he's had no idea how bad things were, and assumed the issues she'd raised were smaller issues he was trying to 'fix' as they came up. (Many men are fixers, not so much "listen and comfort" kind of guys) He had no idea until divorce came up that it was an ongoing thing that had been bringing her down for so long.

Long story short, I don't think either is in the wholly in the wrong or right. I think it's ineffective communication, and if both want to work on the marriage, keep that relationship, it's something they will have to work on. Hell, for any relationship, hers with him, hers with Val, they will need to work on it. No matter how eloquently or how much you communicate, if you aren't getting the message received by the other person, it is ineffectual.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Now I'm looking at the dark horse fourth player, Steve. He's been presented with information and a final limit. Now he has to make a move and choose his next behavior. I do not think he ought to make a rash decision about it. That would be reactionary behavior.

I see what you're getting at now. Thank you for the clarification.

There is now a sense of urgency for Callie, because there is another relationship involved. A sense of urgency for her, not for him. Sure, now he understands that there are issues in their relationship, and maybe they won't work it out. However, it's not as easy as she told him and he ignored her. Communication skills are hard to learn.

Also a very good point. She has every reason to walk away, because she won't be left high and dry. But you're right that she's not giving him a chance to change, now that he knows he needs to if he wants to save the marriage.

 

[GalaGirl]

I see what you're getting at now, thank you for the clarification.

You're welcome, happy to clarify.

So even if she has been expressing how unhappy she is, we don't know how she's been expressing it. Let's be honest, until you learn communication skills, what seems 'so obvious' to you, is not to others.

I don't, however, think that after four days him not jumping on that bandwagon means he isn't acting with intent

I agree. That's why my commenting position right now is at:

A) Callie deserves to have her reasonable wants and needs met in her relationship. She has told Steve that he is not meeting them. I don't know how graceful the delivery was, but my impression is that the volume seemed loud enough to penetrate this time.

B) He's got the ball. I hope he doesn't act rashly, reactionary. It's okay to feel "Aaaah!" initially. It's only been this week that he's learned the seriousness volume. I don't know if his initial "Aaaah!" reaction is from being emotionally flooded. If so, I hope Callie understands that emotional flooding can happen, and while she wants things to move toward resolution, you can't do good conflict resolution with a flooded person. They are too "Aaaah!" to work with well. He needs time to digest.

I'm hoping Steve asks for a time-out to get himself together, and that he will choose to work on this. That's the initial reaction, followed ultimately by acting with intent. Some news is startling. The person receiving the info needs time to digest.

I hope he comes to agreement with Callie on the fair/acceptable length of a time-out she is willing to give for him to collect himself before moving it forward to talking, negotiating, finding compromises.

I hope that if she offered a counseling option, she's willing to actually give it her best if he picks that option, not be offering something she herself does not intend to honor well. That's giving a false choice.

So I just don't feel comfortable painting this other couple in the light of: "She's done all she could, and been open and honest, and he just doesn't get it, and it's too late now. Oh well, move on!"

I'm not saying, "Oh well, move on!" I am saying, "She made her move. The ball is in his court now to make his move. Let's see what he picks next. They are in a time of discernment for themselves. "

I don't think either is in the wholly in the wrong or right. I think it's ineffective communication, and if both want to work on the marriage, keep that relationship, it's something they will have to work on.

I agree. Ultimately it's on Callie and Steve to decide if they are still in it together or not, and after they make the decision, take the appropriate next steps.

I am not judging "in the wrong" or "in the right" -- just commenting on where I think the ball moved to next. It's been moving all over since Bravery first posted that he was struggling with being made an accessory before the fact. The ball's not in his court anymore, but there are still people facing struggle as they grapple with the ball of "What now? What behavior do I pick next?"

I certainly hope they get it together and resolve the problems to a satisfactory conclusion for themselves -- either breaking apart in a healthy way, or remaining together, but changing to a healthy poly-ship shape, but resolved, so both can move to a happier place and find peace.

This is all so sad. It's Hang Time at the Forge for them. How they come out of the experience is up to them, nobody else. Will it be for the better or not? Time will tell.

 

[BraverySeeker]

I really did not set out to serialize this situation or create an ongoing soap opera for anyone else's edification. I've really just been using this forum to sort out my feelings and thoughts about my role, limited though it may be, and seek input from a few experienced poly outsiders.

Let me just clarify that Callie has told Steve that they need to separate. He fears that prospect, but he did finally offer to go to a counselor with her, if there was any chance they could salvage their relationship. She's agreed to the counseling, but is not leading him to believe that their marriage can be saved. At the very least, the counselling may help or convince him they need to part ways, and how to do so relatively amicably.

He's apparently confided in one mutual friend, and she has a few friends she's told that their marriage is troubled, not that there's another love, same-sex or otherwise, waiting in the wings. He has promised not to disclose that to anyone. The finer point is she has a support network that he lacks. Even joint counseling is counseling for him, something he sorely needs, but is not seeking himself or for his own sake.

But I wonder, as does Val, if the marriage counselor won't conclude that Callie should not pursue a relationship with Val, at least as long as it takes to sort out their marriage/breakup. Isn't that more likely than the counselor proving sympathetic to polyamory and nudging Steve toward accepting Callie's love for Val?

So that's one question. Another question we've had is whether the women's relationship should progress during the separation. Sure, Steve now knows about them, but they don't have his consent. Frankly, he sees that relationship as an obstacle to repairing the marriage. Maybe it is, but maybe it isn't.

Val says she can wait for all this to be sorted, even knowing it could take a very long time. Her higher priority now is helping her good friend through a very difficult period. Val has been good about telling Callie and me when she thinks her advice may be self-serving. I don't know that that admission makes her support for a separation/end to the marriage any less problematic, but at least she checks herself and encourages me to call her on that.

Incidentally, I asked Val if she thinks Callie is in a hurry to end her marriage so she can be with Val. Val promptly put that question to Callie, and she said no, that the timing of her recent arrival on the scene is unfortunate, but not a cause for the marriage's long-simmering problems. Callie knows Val is in no hurry, and is not going anywhere, so there's no added urgency.

I may be the only one who is impatient for a time in the not-too-distant future when the two women can be free to pursue happiness together. Right now they're dealing almost exclusively with Callie's unhappiness, frustration and exhaustion with her husband, and his anger, confusion and feelings of impending abandonment.

Everyone just needs to get through this in as few broken pieces as possible.

Thank you for listening and not judging too harshly.

 

[BoringGuy]

Thank you for listening and not judging too harshly.

I forget whether I've posted in this thread, but I have been reading it all along.

I only judge people "harshly" when it's obvious to me that they are being selfish, self-centered, and childish and refuse to acknowledge that the world does not exist to cater to their whims. Unfortunately, I perceive that all too frequently. Here is not an example of that. As I've said elsewhere on this forum - you can find lots of examples here (on this forum and on the internet) of how NOT to treat one's partner. Things don't always end up the way we would like, but i hate watching people torture themselves by fighting to preserve a situation that is defective or dysfunctional.

You seem to want to do the right thing, and according to your posts, your actions appear to match your intentions.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I really did not set out to serialize this situation or create an ongoing soap opera for anyone else's edification. I've really just been using this forum to sort out my feelings and thoughts about my role, limited though it may be, and seek input from a few experienced poly outsiders.

Sorry about that... we're an opinionated bunch, and we really can't help ourselves. Also, much of what we say can be applied to other situations. Although you started this thread, someone else might come along and be in a similar positions to yours. We try to cover all the bases so that others reading the thread in the future can learn from your experience, as well as our own.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry if you feel like your thread got hijacked. That was not my intent.

I really did not set out to serialize this situation or create an ongoing soap opera for anyone else's edification. I've really just been using this forum to sort out my feelings and thoughts about my role, limited though it may be, and seek input from a few experienced poly outsiders.

It sounds like maybe you want this to be more blog-like. Did you want this to be moved to the journal/blog area? You could ask for that here.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23

 

[BraverySeeker]

No, GalaGirl, this thread is fine where it is. And the back-and-forth is more than welcome. I just regret I am unable to keep up with you all and engage with everyone, point by point.

I also shouldn't have led folks to believe they're going to get frequent and dramatic blow-by-blow accounts of this situation. I understand the value (to others grappling with similar issues) of debating who should do what, when and how. But as I'm sure you understand, we're real people living real lives in real time. I can't, out of a need to protect and respect everyone concerned, repeat word-for-word what I'm told or what I know.

I'd rather relate to this fluid situation by posing questions I think you and others on this board can constructively field. I hope that's not too one-sided of me. I really appreciate the insight I've already received.

So in keeping with my last post, I'm interested to hear what general experience you all have had with marriage counselors. Is it unusual, as I suspect, to find mediators who don't automatically equate one spouse falling in love with someone outside the marriage as unacceptable infidelity? Has there been any broadening of minds among the professional class of relationship coaches to consider the legitimacy of polyamory in at least some circumstances?

 

[GalaGirl]

I just regret I am unable to keep up with you all and engage with everyone, point by point. I also shouldn't have led folks to believe they're going to get frequent and dramatic blow-by-blow accounts of this situation.

I have no such expectation. You put in what you feel like when you feel like. It's your thread!

 

[dingedheart]

I've been to marriage counseling, and from my experience, it's to pick through areas of miscommunication or no communication, with a moderator to keep things on point and fair.

In the case you've presented, it looks to me (way up here in the cheap seats) like, unless Callie's bisexual tendencies were known to Steve, and ignored, that they are dealing with general couple stuff-- neglect, being taken for granted, general intimacy stuff.

In most cases, affairs are an acting out of what a person's not getting at home, escapism, etc. So you get the chicken/egg argument. In this case, you might have two or three issues running on parallel tracks.

Also, is it fair to craft the counseling to fit the outcome the three of you want?

 

[SchrodingersCat]

You can find poly-friendly counselors. The easiest way to determine this is just to call them up and ask if they're supportive of polyamory. If they ask what that is, then they probably aren't.

 

[BraverySeeker]

"Couples who turn to a therapist hoping for guidance on ways to loosen -- but not break -- the bonds of standard monogamy are likely to be offered little but defensive condemnation and stilted bromides... [It is] the rare therapist [who is] willing to publicly consider that heterosexual couples might find alternative arrangements that can work well for them -- even if they find themselves outside the bounds of what mainstream society approves," write Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha in their excellent book Sex at Dawn.

In Polyamory in the 21st Century, Deborah Anapol references a 2002 study "that found 38 percent of polyamorous people who were in therapy chose not to even mention their poly lifestyle to their therapist. Of those who did reveal it, 10 percent reported experiencing a negative response. Even when a therapist was not judgmental, some clients ended up using their paid session time to educate therapists who knew nothing about polyamory."

I suspect dingedheart is correct that the issue of polyamory may be moot if the more fundamental problem with which an unhappy married couple is seeking therapy is bad communication. In such cases, where one spouse wants the other to accept either her desire for polyamory or a breakup, while the other one wants to save the marriage, I suspect it would be unfairly stacking the deck for the poly-leaning spouse to insist on a poly-sympathizing therapist.

As it happens, the couple I'm connected to via my poly-leaning wife is now in therapy. However, Callie and Steve are seeking therapy separately. They are also now days into an actual separation. She has moved out. He is despondent. And their two teenage sons are now dealing with that, as well as can be hoped for, so far.

I'm no therapist, but the separation appears entirely necessary. They have been unable to speak to each other with civility or to hear each other. Steve is still begging Callie to come back, as soon as this weekend. She's trying to get him to understand that, to her, their marriage is over.

After she had moved out, Steve reached out to me in a long meandering email about how he didn't blame my wife, but wished she and I could help his wife see the importance of keeping their family together. And although he briefly acknowledged that their marriage had been on the rocks "for years," he claimed he never saw coming her willingness to leave him.

I wrote back. I told him about my breakup years ago, followed by three years of zero communication between Val and me. Only then, when we had stopped taking each other for granted, did we fall in love again, marry and start a family. I told him I would be forever grateful for those three years in the emotional wilderness.

I admitted our situations were not analogous, given that my breakup occurred prior to the intertwining of our lives. But I told him that the only real option for him was to accept and respect Callie's wish to no longer be with him. I cautioned him against believing that they, like Val and me, could get back together. I channeled my inner Dan Savage by bluntly advising him to give up the ghost that is their marriage.

I also urged him not to conflate his marital problems with the women's romantic interest in one another. The marriage was in trouble for years before they fell for each other just 2-3 months ago. This new relationship was not causal, but probably helped clarify what Callie had been feeling/not feeling for him for quite some time.

Although he thanked me for my brutal honesty, I know it is unlikely we will correspond again, or that he and I can or will see the situation the same way. He's looking at his life as he's known it disintegrating, while I'm reaping the benefits of a life partner who is exploring her love for two people with their full knowledge and encouragement.

I should add that Val has had her moments of insecurity, too. She has expressed fear that Callie may no longer need her once the trauma and drama over her failing marriage runs its course. And if Callie were to decide to reconcile with Steve, Val wife fears she will get and accept advice from her therapist to give up their relationship.

To her credit, Callie has consistently reassured Val that their relationship is nonnegotiable.

As they had done a few weeks ago, which prompted me to start this thread, they have again arranged to spend their first night together this weekend. They are very likely to follow through this time, however.

I'm at a place now where I could ask them to imagine not having to get a hotel room, but cuddle together on our couch watching a movie. Before heading to bed together, Val would give me a kiss, leaving me to tell them in the morning how the film ended. They both expressed amazement at the suggestion, but I wasn't overtly trying to impress them with the advanced state of my compersion. I just look forward to a time when we are all just that comfortable with this arrangement.

I'm happy for them. I really am.

But I'm sad for Steve. I'm less sympathetic, however, as I've learned more about his resorting to threats, manipulation, arrogance and utter deafness. One example: within 24 hours of asking Callie not to tell their friends of their troubled marriage, he told several of them about the separation and the "affair," thereby outing her in the process. He did so to seek allies among their mutual acquaintances, obviously, but I think it was a recklessly insensitive dick move.

He probably will never know nor appreciate how our wives delayed the full potential of their "affair" out of respect for him and hope in the possibility, only glimpsed at, that he could understand and accept their love. His inability to see the "affair" in any way but a negatively conventional sense is unfortunate and disappointing, but not surprising -- or without justification. At least they told him before it became physically intimate. He needed to be told when he was.

So it's still a mess, with both increasingly ugly and beautiful aspects. Val and I are still relating very well, but I know that's a fire I need to stoke much more regularly than I used to. Val says she hasn't felt so in love and loved the way she does now since we got back together 12 years ago. I'm thrilled for her, and I'm thrilled for us, the three of us.

Should there be four of us? Apparently not. I will not say Steve's loss is anyone's gain. I prefer to believe that eventually he, too, will find love again. The breakup with Callie may just be the first thing that has to happen to make that possible.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

In such cases where one spouse wants the other to accept either her desire for polyamory or a breakup while the other one wants to save the marriage, I suspect it would be unfairly stacking the deck for the poly-leaning spouse to insist on a poly-sympathizing therapist.

Any therapist worth their salt will be able to separate the poly issues from the marital issues. If the counselor is even remotely experienced, they would never encourage one spouse to start having other relationships while the marriage is still on the rocks.

I live in a city of only 200,000. Our local poly group maintains a list of poly-friendly health practitioners, including doctors and therapists. All that means is that they won't jump on polyamory as the beginning and end of the problem.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

But I'm sad for him. I'm less sympathetic, however, as I've learned more about his resorting to threats, manipulation, arrogance and utter deafness. One example: Within 24 hours of asking Callie not to tell their friends of their troubled marriage, he told several of them about the separation and the affair, thereby outing her in the process. He did so to seek allies among their mutual acquaintances, obviously, but I think it was a recklessly insensitive dick move.

Yeah, that's totally not cool. And if that's his MO, then no wonder she hit the road running. I'm surprised she lasted as long as she did, and I strongly suspect that seeing a beautiful marriage like yours helped open her eyes.

He needed to be told when he was.

With the whole story down now, I rather suspect this could have played out just as well if she'd never told him. I realize that she had to go through the steps she did. But in that old 20/20 hindsight, I think she could have safely just left him and played like she met Val afterwards.

That might sound deceitful, and it probably is. But that whole "open honest communication" thing only really applies if you're actually in the relationship. If you're already leaving, it's perfectly fine to hold your cards close to your chest. I would never accuse a woman leaving an abusive relationship of being "dishonest" for hoarding money and clothes away for her escape. This is not so different. Callie will now face an uphill battle with the divorce. Depending on the state, her "affair" could make her ineligible for spousal support. Fortunately, they didn't "do anything," as far as the courts are concerned, until they were separated. Its not "cheating" legally if you aren't sexual.

Should there be four of us? Apparently not. I will not say his loss is anyone's gain. I prefer to believe that eventually he, too, will find love again. The breakup with his wife may just be the first thing that has to happen to make that possible.

You're very optimistic. From the pieces I've heard, Steve sounds like an ass. Unfortunately, assholes bag women all the time. *sigh* I only pity the next woman who falls for his crap.

 

[BraverySeeker]

Schrondingerscat, very astute reading. I would add that I think Callie is fortunately in a financial situation that favors her coming out of this fine. But she's getting a lawyer, seeing a therapist, and hiring a real estate agent.

Which brings to mind a new question: What would you and other Senior Members think about Val and me seeking a poly-minded therapist proactively? We talked about this last night.

As much as Val keeps saying she feels so lucky to have two sexy, mature and passionate partners, her good fortune inevitably leaves her feeling guilty and fearful that she could wind up hurting one or both of us. I don't see how, so long as she continues to be open and honest, and trusts me with being able to handle her having this other relationship. I said I don't want her to consider me an obstacle to her loving Callie. Personally, I want to do everything I can to foster her love life, including what's between the two of us, short of smothering her/them with my enthusiasm. I know we'll probably make mistakes, but I don't want to regret how it all plays out.

Before anything could or does go wrong, Val said maybe we should see a therapist together. I had already identified a sex- and poly-positive professional in our area -- one I'd be excited to meet whether I was her client or not. Val seems game to go to her in a counseling capacity.

But we're doing fine right now. Better than fine, really. I've never had therapy. Maybe there's reason to fear it. Maybe I should worry about what a therapist could draw out of me. Hell, I didn't know I could deal with Val having another lover until confronted with that actually happening. There have been lesser confessions that have followed, but with the doors blown open to the previously unimaginable, I'm a little fearful what I may say and whether it's anything Val needs to hear or can handle.

Seriously, not much comes to mind. Except one little thing: Callie is a beautiful woman, but more attractive to me for how she's been able to incite such passion in my wife. Although Val confessed early on that she feared Callie and me falling for one another, I thought that far-fetched and told her so. Callie and I are the monos to our poly hinge. That arrangement is complicated enough, but manageable. I could easily see that if things got sticky between Val and me, the whole house of cards could fall.

As I mentioned in my intro post (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29185), when Val dumped me years ago, I briefly and foolishly imagined a triad with her and the woman with whom she was cheating on me. Just the suggestion was a disaster.

So that's off the table in the current era, too, out of respect for Val and HER relationship with HER GF. I have no interest in inserting myself more intimately and thereby torpedoing what they have. I suspect that would put at risk my wife's trust in and love for me quicker than anything.

I'm not some horndog "playing his cards right" in hopes of a steamy threesome. Fuck no. I just hope, if asked by a crafty therapist if I have designs on my wife's GF, that I can adequately allay any fears Val has that I am that horndog cliche.

Flip the coin-- Val told me that Callie has said to her, "I wish I could have you all to myself." I know I should take that as my metamour intended it -- as endearing -- and not as a threatening shot across my bow. Val has also said, "I'm going to fight for" a relationship with Callie. She's let me know that's what she's told her estranged husband. I responded that I expect and hope she will. Now I'm wondering if the better response from me should have been, "I'm fighting for her, too, you know."

 

[BoringGuy]

Which brings to mind a new question: What would you and other Senior Members think about my wife and I seeking a poly-minded therapist proactively? We talked about this last night.

"Senior members" means that a person has a certain number of posts on the forum. It has nothing to do with the quality of their posts or how much of a "poly expert" they are. A person could get to be a "senior member" by posting "Welcome" to new intros or by posting in the Word Association game, etc.

That said,

Before anything could or does go wrong, Val said maybe we should see a therapist together. I had already identified a sex- and poly-positive professional in our area -- one I'd be excited to meet whether I was her client or not. Val seems game to go to her in a counseling capacity.

As a "senior member," I don't think this is a bad idea at all. I think most people try to "seek counseling" when they feel there is a problem they can't handle by themselves. Establishing a professional relationship with a counselor proactively would enable the counselor to collect information and gain insight as to what your baseline is during "good" times, and give them more to draw upon when it comes to helping you through a difficult situation or a crisis (similar to the way a physician does when he or she sees a client for their annual check-up).