What does a mono husband do about his daughter's discovery of her mother's polyamory?

[Fidelia]

The cause of the wife's behaviour is not dingedheart's stated concern. Helping his children (specifically his daughter) deal with the damage caused by that behavior is his concern.

Whether the images are photoshopped collages, she was forced into posing by a horde of aliens, or she paid double the studio rate to have them done as glamour shots, doesn't change the fact that their daughter has been harmed.

From what I read here, dinged doesn't know or care to know much about BDSM, and shouldn't have his nose rubbed in it if he's not interested. Concerned members of the community have already provided him with links if he wants to learn more about it.

So if the discussion is going to tangent into what could have caused the mother to engage in that behavior, I would like to request that tangent be moved to a separate thread.

 

[FlameKat]

my thoughts...

The cause of the wife's behaviour is not dingedheart's stated concern. Helping his children (specifically his daughter) deal with the damage caused by that behavior is his concern.

From what I read here, dinged doesn't know or care to know much about bdsm. Members of the community have already provided him with links if he wants to learn more about it. So if the discussion is going to tangent into what could have caused the mother to engage in that behavior, I would like to request that tangent be moved to a separate thread.

This.

Dinged, the reason I requested you to not show the photos to others, I mentioned in my earlier post, because of the later damage that would do, or the very real possibility of adding complications now to the emotional/mental state of your daughter's mother. Not because I think you should care about her emotional state, but because it will impact on your daughter, whether now or in the future.

The reason I think some of the other posters want you to understand the BDSM dynamics is so you can look your daughter in the eye and say, "It was your mother's choice to behave like that. There is nothing wrong with it. Even though it is not my choice of behaviour and I don't like it" and be convincing about it.

For the sake of showing my perspective, I left my marriage three years ago by running away on a stormy night. My then 11-yr old daughter stood watching me run away, even as her father was ripping my hair from my scalp as I twisted from his grip. Just prior to that, she had been screaming at him to, "Stop hurting Mummy," as he held me prisoner, physically assaulting me. In the years prior to that, she and the other children had witnessed other, worse events, and her sister had been a victim of similar and more terrifying psychological abuses by her father.

This daughter, though, was her father's princess, and it was not until after I left, and began winning the various court actions against him, that his behaviour towards her changed, and she started receiving the same treatment. I would have been more than justified to tell her explicitly what else her sister and I had been through at his hands, why she was only allowed to see him on certain days, why sometimes weeks and months went past when she didn't see him, why she had her own lawyer, and her lawyer's mobile number for contact, if needed. BUT I DIDN'T. Why?
BECAUSE even though she hated her dad for what he had done to me and her sister (that she saw). she still loved him. Under her anger, and her confusion was this great grief. She still needed him to be her dad.

So he is, and I struggle every time she is there, even with all the precautions, even watching right now as the signs of another storm building are starting to show again. I still bite my tongue, and encourage their relationship, while I protect her at the same time. It is the finest tightrope I walk, but I do it because it is what she needs me to do.

One day, she will make her own decision about whether to continue to have him in her life. She is already showing the signs of reaching that decision in her own mind. She has yet to explain it to her heart. I can't do it for her. It has to be her choice, made for her own reasons, not influenced by things outside her control, or (angry/revengeful/hurtful/sad) thoughts from the most important person (outside of herself) to her.

Your daughter needs neutrality from you in this situation.

 

[dingedheart]

Magdlyn, you said the use of these words was cathartic. How?

You misunderstood the question. How would you, Magdlyn, tell your 12/13yr old daughter about these photos of "you" in the photos. You have to explain to your daughter, mother, sisters what they're looking at in emails and pictures.

Tit for tat, is that code for something I'm again unaware of? Not really thinking in those terms, just don't feel like bending to find understanding for their behavior. I feel I've done more than enough work on all of this. I in no way want him involved in conversations with my daughter.. That would freak her out further. I was just commenting on the complete and total lack of responsibility, and perhaps concern. Or if there was concern, it slipped by me.

I think we are of a similar age, because I to saw playboy mags in the '60s. Never saw BDSM photos. Nothing close to these. Usually girl next door type shots, not clumsluts bound to a bench being pissed on.

Do you think your parents had that type of a relationship after discovering the de Sade book? What if you discovered Polaroids of your mother displayed like a Christmas ham in that book?

Her perception of her mother has been destroyed.

Awkward and uncomfortable doesn't capture the moment. Pain, just pain.

Did your family ever lose a pet dog or cat? It's just emotional pain.

You asked what questions has she asked. How could she do this? Why would she or anyone want to be hit with a stick? How could she choose this over our family? How can she use these words, and I get in trouble for saying bitch or hell?

Hey, I need to find one of those hook devices. What are they called? It looks to be 8-10 inches long, aluminum, most likely cast, not machined, eye on the long end. Could be stainless steel, but that seems expensive and unnecessary.

 

[dingedheart]

Viablealtenative, thank you for your thoughts. I can not find any sympathy for the mindset or the people involved. They have, in addition to their strange dialog, the misfortune to mention me in a condescending way. Big fucking mistake on their part.

Sorry, these posts have come in too fast, and with all the other things I'm doing, I'm way too slow to respond to each and in detail.

It seems counter to argue the there is nothing wrong with any of these actions, and it's a release, cathartic, power exchange, etc., nothing to be ashamed of, but for god sakes don't let anyone else see them. It could cause further damage. Could push wife over edge. What edge? It's just good clean/dirty fun. What's the problem? I don't think you can have both sides of this issue. It's not shameful, but I'd be ashamed if people knew or saw what I've done.

One of my main concerns going down this road in the beginning was to keep the kids out of it. Wow, seems like a fucking joke now. I didn't want them to be unnecessarily burdened by stupid shit their parents think they "need". Or some sort of experiment that is found not to work.
Well fuck. Poly seems like a fucking joke now, a cake walk.


RP, how in a discussion on self-empowerment with a young girl going through puberty are these photos and emails of mother help make that case? A self-empowerment photo essay for a young girl would look little different in Teen Vogue.

Fidelia, thank you. You are right. Way too fucking tired to research this topic. Don't care what anyone does with in their own homes. Beat the living shit out of each other. God bless you all. I'm a builder, I can build you the sound-proof rooms. Done it dozens of times for home theaters.

 

[Magdlyn]

The cause of the wife's behaviour is not dingedheart's stated concern. Helping his children (specifically his daughter) deal with the damage caused by that behavior is his concern. dinged doesn't know or care to know much about BDSM.. Members of the community have already provided him with links if he wants to learn more about it. So if the discussion is going to tangent into what could have caused the mother to engage in that behavior, I would like to request that tangent be moved to a separate thread.

Fidelia, I appreciate your concern, but if you read dinged's last post, he did ask me specific questions about BDSM.

magdlyn, you said the use of these words was cathartic, How?

Not just the words, but in general, being dominated, and getting in "subspace," while it looks painful and morally degrading from the outside, I have learned that it is actually a peaceful euphoric place. And being beaten until one cries, for example, is a good release of tension, sometimes. Of course, again, this is consensual. I would hate to be beaten against my will by an abusive partner. Totally different thing. For me, being beaten by consensual agreement releases endorphins and turns pain into pleasure (orgasm).

You misunderstood the question. How would you tell your 12-yr old daughter about these photos of "you"? You have to explain to your daughter, mother, sisters what they're looking at in emails and pictures.

Well, I shudder to have to contemplate that scenario, but I guess I'd say something like a previous poster did, that different people have different sexual tastes. Some games adults play look bad from the outside, but are actually fun and even healthy to do when mutually agreed upon.

Tit for tat, is that code for something I'm again unaware of? Not really thinking in those terms, just don't feel like bending to find understanding for their behavior. I feel I've done more than enough work on all of this.

Well, I just meant if YOU understood BDSM more, you could explain those pix to your daughter more clearly.

I think we are of a similar age, because I to saw playboy mags in the '60s, never saw BDSM photos. Usually girl next door type shots, not clumsluts bound to a bench being pissed on.

No, you're right, but to a sheltered 1960s kid, even Playboy pix looked kinky. The actual kink was more in those books I mentioned.

Do you think your parents had that type of a relationship after discovering the de Sade book??

No, not really. My mom was very literary and open-minded, though. I am thinking back then was when they first started legally publishing de Sade, and so she was curious. Fanny Hill is 18th-century bordello erotica, also a literary curiosity.

What if you discovered Polaroids of your mother displayed like a Christmas ham in that book?

LOL Xmas ham. I would have been shocked and disgusted, of course. Heck, when I was 22, she admitted to being involved in an extra-marital affair, and that shocked me enough, though I tried not to show it. My dad wasn't satisfying her, and she had her fling.

Anyway, I don't mean to "rub your nose" in BDSM information. I feel hurt to have been accused of that, if it's not obvious already. I am a child advocate and very sorry your daughter was exposed to all this at such a young age. I am just trying to help.

Her perception of her mother has been destroyed.

Awkward and uncomfortable doesn't capture the moment. Your family ever lose a pet? It's just emotional pain.
You ask what questions has she asked. How could she do this? Why would she want to be hit with a stick?

Here is a specific BDSM question that I attempted to answer (despite Fidelia saying it was off topic.) Being beaten causes endorphins to kick in, like a runner's high, or how women stand labor pains. The body releases its own opiates when confronted with pain. Labor pains or consensual pain in BDSM feels much different than say, breaking your leg accidentally. If your daughter is athletic at all, I'm sure she's willingly suffered pain in sports sometimes.

How could she choose this over our family?

Well, kids in their teen years find out gradually and painfully that their parents are HUMAN, flawed human beings. They make mistakes, they act in less than rational and unselfish ways at times, they carry pain and have hang-ups and do stupid careless things, just like kids do.

How can she use these words, and I get in trouble for saying bitch or hell?

Haha, well, two people in private can say whatever they want. Anyone could get in trouble for saying asswhore (or whatever) out on the street!

 

[Fidelia]

Magdlyn: I had absolutely no offense intended toward anyone, certainly not toward you personally. I hope you know I think you rock.

In my last post, I was just calling it like I saw it. I’m not always right, but I am always honest. If dingedheart wants and needs to know about the power and euphoria of subspace and power exchange, sub frenzy, etc. I have no problem whatsoever with that. I have been interpreting much of dingedheart’s commentary on bdsm as mostly the venting of a basically vanilla (straight-up) hetero male with a severely wounded heart, and his questions as primarily rhetorical venting rather than actually seeking to understand the bdsm life (example: the going day rate of a slave). I’ve been wrong before. If I’m wrong here, I sincerely apologize to any offended party.

Like you, Mags, I’m only trying to help. I thought I saw the thread about to tangent off onto why the mother might behave the way she has. IMO, that tangent doesn’t help dinged help his daughter. It is important, no doubt, but doesn’t much help the immediate situation on the ground at his house now. So I said so. I cannot apologize for that, but I certainly regret any hurt I may have caused.

 

[Penny]

Actually, understanding why the mother behaved as she had might help the daughter a lot. It might help her father respond in some way other than spewing hate and anger. However well-deserved, that's not going to be what's best for the daughter, and what's best for the daughter is the most important thing.

So, I strongly disagree that it is off-topic.

 

[dingedheart]

Flamekat, thanks for your reply yesterday. I didn't see it until after I finished my own reply, by then it got too late.

Couple thoughts. How does it make sense for me to make the case that her mother's behavior is fine or normal when her mother is huddle in a corner 200 miles away threatening suicide. Her current actions (wife's) are sending some message. It is not loud and proud.

Reading your story about the abusive relationship was very sad. You have my deepest sympathy for all that your family has had to endure.

Did the "professionals" advise you not relay some of the violence that happened to you and the older daughter? I would think her safety would trump the need for a father figure. Let's not forget the truth. It is the truth. I can see how this would be a very difficult balance for you. I have been deferring to the "pros" on stuff like that. I have been advised many times not to personally attack "Mom" verbally, because they are genetically half Mom, so they would feel some of the personal attack.

A lot of anger originally was to judgment. Recording these actions and words was beyond stupid.

Who cares why Tiger Woods thought it would be a good idea to do all the things he did? Thousands of bad decisions. Why would he want to risk his entire world for hookers? I don't care. His wife doesn't care. His kids don't care.

Bill Clinton, president of the USA, leader of the free world, thinks it was a good idea to fuck around with an intern. What a fucking moron. I don't care about the excuse they may offer. I do know why. because he/they were only thinking about their own gratification in the moment and not about the commitments they made, or the big picture such actions would have.

How long did it take to regain some normalcy, if that's possible?

Thanks again, Flamekat.

Magdlyn

Thanks for your comments. To clarify, you said it was "awkward and uncomfortable" in regard to my daughter's late night crying and question fest, not about the mechanics of BDSM.

There was one other question I forgot, "Why hasn't Mom called Billy (her brother, not his real name) to talk?" Good question.

I know I asked how you would talk to your daughter or children, but I don't know whether you have children or not, and what they know of your situation, poly and BDSM.

Fidelia, thank you. I think you have summarized my mindset. I was half joking about the day rate. I had a reason for that question. I do want to find and purchase or have fabricated that hook thing. I think I'll do a web search on one of my employee's computers just for fun.

Penny, my spewing hate and anger is the result of two thoughtless people who up to now seemed to have slithered back into the dark shadows of their dungeon.

I don't get it. Pain, torture, humiliation, mind control... big disconnect from the loving beautiful images in my head. Hey, I don't get men fucking farm animals, or women being fucked by large dogs or donkeys either. Saw a guy who got off by popping balloons. Wow, don't get it. Don't care either. Fuck and pop away.

I guess my position is "she," his slave, may need to figure out her position on this and then we can discuss with the appropriate professionals whether to integrate that with what is currently being said. At this time, it's mostly about the feelings of betrayal and loss of the family, stuff of that nature.


RP, you had mentioned not to forget my son. I very much agree. You will be happy to know he and I will be going to his first rock/blues concert together. Joe Bonamassa. My kid is getting into guitar right now. Joe was a child prodigy. I saw Joe in B.B. King's club when he was 15 or something,10 or 15 yrs ago. I had purchased the tickets a long time ago, to take my wife. Thought about trading them in to get three and take my daughter as well, but remember what you said and scrapped that idea. Boy's night, steak house and the concert He and I may go away for spring break, just the two of us.

 

[Penny]

It is fine for you to spew hate and anger here. You have every right to it.

I am not saying your wife's relationship with her bf was healthy. Obviously it was not.

What I'm saying is that spewing hate and anger could be damaging if that is how you respond to your daughter's questions. Sure, it might afford you some commiserations now, but it will bite you both in the ass in the long run.

Your wife is having a nervous breakdown and is possibly suicidal. It goes without saying that she is severely psychologically damaged, and that this damage has roots that go back before the discovery of the photos and emails.

 

[NeonKaos]

DH, she IS still your wife... Have you thought about having her "committed" to a psychiatric medical facility for a 72-hour evaluation? Basically, you petition the court to determine whether she is a danger to herself/others. If someone is "suicidal", that meets the criteria for "danger to self".

I really think it's time for you to get the professionals involved. From what you have shared, it sounds like you can afford the necessary doctors, lawyers, and court fees. Insurance would probably cover some or all of the hospitalization costs.

This thread is venturing beyond the scope of what this forum is here for. This is not a forum for family crisis intervention and YOU, my friend, have a family crisis.

Please get professional help ASAP.

 

[Penny]

DH, she IS still your wife... Have you thought about having her "committed" to a psychiatric medical facility for a 72-hour evaluation? Basically, you petition the court to determine whether she is a danger to herself/others. If someone is "suicidal", that meets the criteria for "danger to self".

I really think it's time for you to get the professionals involved. From what you have shared, it sounds like you can afford the necessary doctors, lawyers, and court fees. Insurance would probably cover some or all of the hospitalization costs.

This thread is venturing beyond the scope of what this forum is here for. This is not a forum for family crisis intervention and YOU, my friend, have a family crisis.

Please get professional help ASAP.

This. Totally this.

You have to worry about the effect her mental breakdown and possible suicide could have on your children.

You don't need to forgive or feel any compassion, understanding, or goodwill toward your wife, but she must get her shit together because if she explodes any worse than she already has, it could devastate your kids in the long run.

 

[NeonKaos]

This. Totally this.

You have to worry about the effect her mental breakdown and possible suicide could have on your children.

You don't need to forgive or feel any compassion, understanding, or goodwill toward your wife, but she must get her shit together because if she explodes any worse than she already has, it could devastate your kids in the long run.

Besides, you probably do still love your wife underneath all this grief and drama. When you two got married, did you say anything in your vows about standing by each other "through sickness and health"? Now is the time to decide if you meant that for real, because your wife is SICK and she needs HELP. Even if you don't love her anymore or if you didn't take a marriage vow about sickness/health, help your wife get help for your childrens' sake, like penny said.

 

[Carma]

I just had a thought -- your daughter saw pictures; she did not actually witness these acts. Could it be presented the same as if someone were acting in a horror movie -- I mean, the actor who portrays Freddy Krueger, his kids don't think he is a homicidal maniac, they understand he was playing a role.

Even the e-mails -- words, a script, role-playing.

Yes, graphic and disturbing. Freddy's movies are very bloody and horrible -- to think he was actually doing these horrific acts! But it was not REAL.

What is real to your daughter is the love her mother has shown her, her whole life. Their relationship was not about the relationship/role playing she was doing. Even if it was simultaneous, it had nothing to do with their mother-daughter relationship.

The prev. post was SPOT ON about letting your child love the other parent... My ex is a sexual deviant who molested and assaulted my daughter's best friend 6 years ago when they were 17. My two younger daughters (14 and 15, now) have been told, but the 15-year old refuses to believe a word of it. She still invites her beautiful friends over to his house to spend the night. My 14-year old is a bit more wary, and tends to believe her dad is a little creepy. I am waiting for them to see the light, on their own. (I only pray that another girl does not get hurt. I tried. I even warn the girls' parents, any chance I get. Unfortunately he and his wife present a pretty enough picture, and I guess the parents see me as a "scorned ex wife" or something.) When I get too aggressive in my cautioning, they get defensive of him, and it backfires. Bottom line: kids have the right to love their parents.

I'm glad you are managing to keep it together, DH. I hear you talk of making dinner and helping with homework, and going to concerts and spring break.... I think that is the best you can do for right now. Yor daughter will immerse herself in her friends at school -- for most girls her age, that will take a precedence over anything her dumb parents are doing, anyway

 

[dingedheart]

Thanks, Penny. I have not answered my kids' questions with any hate. Mostly I say I don't know, because I don't really know outside of what we have speculated on here. Again, I had a very strict warning not to spew anything toward either of them.

I was concerned for her safety and possible injury to herself, which is why I had one of my employees take her and her car 200 miles to her sister's. She did say in the early aftermath some shit about killing herself. True feelings... who knows? I do know, some time after all this started, she deleted all the emails and photos. Not suicidal then, still working damage control.

As to her current condition, it's hard to assess without making lots of inquiries. And I don't know if she's really interested in me or my participation in this.

What is fuckboy's role now? His slave, his problem.

I feel fairly gutted. Not much feeling for her at all... good or bad... nothing. That could be worse.

I do want her to get well enough to call her some of those names. That might be interesting. And not in a venomous way, more of an everyday light-hearted way. Good morning, asswhore, sleep well? You have a spot of ketchup on your mouth, cunt. Something like that. Or ask her what is the actual cleaning procedure for all her cunts and the inspection position. Love to see that or hear the answers.

Do you know what a nervous breakdown means? From what I'm getting, it's kind of a catch-all. Haven't heard any suicide talk recently

Thanks,
D

 

[NeonKaos]

What does "nervous breakdown" mean????

If she was vomiting blood wouldn't you bring her to the hospital?

Well, your wife - the mother of your children - is mentally vomiting blood.

You do whatcha gotta do buddy. I can't stand reading about this shit anymore.

 

[IndieSolo]

Dinged, the things she did to you in your relationship are separate from the things she did with him. Be mad about how she treated you, not about the acts she participated in with him. If your daughter had never discovered this, and your wife had been respectful of you, you may never have known what she was doing with her boyfriend. That has a lot to do with why people here have been trying to explain it. But her treatment of you, with lies and deception and disregarding her family, was not right.

And it is possible that at some point what might have started out as lighthearted play between her and her boyfriend became some form of control and abuse of her. Though it seems she was willing, she may not have felt she had a choice. She could have been victimized or they took the acts too far beyond what she could handle, hence a breakdown afterward. That's why I referred you to Hedda Nussbaum's story.

A nervous breakdown has many meanings. It's not a clinical term. According to Wikipedia, "Mental breakdown (also known as a nervous breakdown) is a non-medical term used to describe an acute, time-limited phase of a specific disorder . . . with features of depression or anxiety." Often there are outside stressors that provoke it, or possible mental illness. I have a lot of experience with close family members having nervous breakdowns and mental illnesses. Though what they did was often hurtful to me, their mental states dictated their behaviors, and thus required compassion from me. Compassion. Very difficult but necessary.

 

[dingedheart]

NeonKaos, I thought she might want to check herself into such a place. My involvement now is difficult on several levels.

I'm confused by the change in postings from BDSM is good clean/dirty fun, nothing to be ashamed of, to she's clearly sick and needs help.

Insurance is good and covers such things. Money is not that big an issue, except don't know if I feel like paying. His slave, his problem... his bill.

"Still love underneath the grief and drama," big assumption. I really want to be left alone.

Her care is in very good hands, her sister, who has a medical background and works in that field. Does she know the truth of this? I'm not completely sure. She may not know the entire picture, which may hamper the recovery effort. The sister is fairly religious, so it may be hard to share with her. What I mean is, hard for my wife to share with her. I have no problem sharing, even over-sharing.

Are you the one who brought up the marriage vows last week? Yes, I'm sure sickness and health was in there. I haven't filed for divorce yet. Don't remember anything about forcing a psych exam. It's kind of funny that several months into poly, I started thinking about our marriage vows and what they meant. I even mentioned it to my wife to get her thoughts.

Thanks,
D

 

[NeonKaos]

neonkaos

I thought she might want to check herself into such a place....my involvement now is difficult on several levels.

I'm confused by the change in postings from bdsm good clean/dirty fun nothing to be ashamed of .....to she clearly sick and needs help.

I don't recall ever making a post defending BDSM as "good clean/dirty fun". So there was no "change" in my postings. I am not in control over what other people have posted.

Having said that - While BDSM CAN be "good clean/dirty fun", if someone is mentally/emotionally unhealthy, BDSM is not going to help them GET healthy. Someone has already said that it could have started out as "good clean/dirty fun" but became something else later. Some people start off drinking alcohol because they have "fun" and down the road they've become a full-blown alcoholic putting their and other people's well-being at grave risk.

Furthermore, at first your thread was about "daughter discovers mother's poly". This is NOT about "daughter discovers mother's poly". This is about "mother is going crazy and father is fixated on what she did with boyfriend". Please get your head out of your ass like, YESTERDAY.

Insurance is good and covers such things...money not that big and issue....except don't know if I feel like paying ....his slave his problem ..his bill

" Still love underneath the grief and drama" big assumption...I really want to be left alone....

Ok, so you don't love her and you don't want to be with her. Then don't help her and don't pay. It's your life, not mine. I don't really give a crap what you decide to do.

Are you the one who brought up the marriage vows last week? Yes I 'm sure sickness and health was in there.

No, I brought it up just today.

I haven't filed for divorce yet. Don't remember anything about forcing psych exam... Its kind of funny that several months in poly I started thinking about our marriage vows and what they meant. I even mentioned it to my wife to get her thoughts.

I wonder why people don't think about their marriage vows and what they mean BEFORE they get married, instead of waiting until "several months into poly". By the way, your marriage is NOT "poly". It's "dysfunctional".

I don't think you're listening to what anyone on here is saying because everytime someone writes something, you reply the SAME WAY. That is what it is, but this forum is NOT A FAMILY CRISIS INTERVENTION CENTER.

 

[dingedheart]

NYCindie and NeonKaos, wow you guys are fast. My damn phone keeps ringing

We aren't sure of the "mental-blood" thing yet. At least I haven't been told that.

If I was told of that and asked to step in, I would most certainly do that for all the reasons you have outlined. Not there yet.

I get what you're saying about how it could have spiraled out of control, and compassion. However, they made one mistake that makes that harder-- mentioning me in the emails. She was instructed to meet or something, and she said she didn't think it would work because of me. He then blustered a bit and said, "He's lucky I don't make him my bitch," to which it further deteriorated, blah blah, eye to eye, not going to happen. He most likely wet himself. It's actually quite funny. He and I will have a conversation about it and some of the other emails.

Thanks,
D

 

[Penny]

Dingedheart, you are seeing contradictions where none exist and manufacturing arguments and conflict in an irrational manner.

BDSM can be just clean/dirty fun. It is not, in itself, a symptom of mental illness. It can be subject to abuse, if the parties involved are irresponsible.

Pretty much any activity in conjunction with mental illness can be taken in an unhealthy direction.