What is reasonable?

Holic

New member
Hello all,

I am still relatively new here and more of a lurker than contributor, so I shall try and put this as simply as poss!

I am a Mono. My partner, Apple, has one other partner, Orange. Myself and Apple live together and are expecting a baby. We live a long distance from Orange. Orange has another partner, Banana, whom she lives with. Apple and Orange talk a lot over IM and are gamers, so also do RPG a couple of times a week online. He sees Orange less regularly than he did now (used to see her one weekend in two), this has dwindled due to pregnancy complications, he does not drive so making the trip back in cases of emergency (this happened previously and was very stressful and worrying) is not easy and therefore we are taking things as they come for the moment. The hospital have themselves said the situation is not predictable. Myself and Orange have met and spoken, but we are not 'friends' nor are we dating. We don't dislike each other, there is no malice or uncomfortable feelings, it's more Apple is in a relationship with her and in a relationship with me and they are separate entities if you see what I mean?

I am a little stuck as to how to approach some issues and would simply like some advice, I do not want to tread on anyone's toes or hurt feelings.

Issue 1; IMing in certain situations. By this, I really mean hospital visits. They are often very stressful, highly emotional times and he will be messaging Orange, not about the situation at all, but about everyday chit chat. I suppose I am asking if I am being unreasonable in asking him not to do so in this situation, I don't want to 'take' from their relationship, they have both found the increasing time apart challenging but when we are there it is a time where I feel I need him to be 'all there' ifykwim? How do I go about this?

Issue 2; Sexual relations. I feel bad in that, during my previous relationship, my then fiance, cheated and gave me an STI, which I unknowingly passed on to Apple. The cheating was only revealed quite a long time post break-up, so unfortunately I jumped to conclusions and thought it came from Apple. I was beyond mortified, so was Apple and then, when it came out that this had come from my ex, I felt absolutely dreadful, I cannot tell you. Fortunately, the STI in question was easily treated and dealt with (everyone was tested and treated accordingly), however, it has left me with a terrible anxiety regarding sexual relations between everyone. If I was not over 6 months pregnant I wouldn't be so concerned, of that I am sure. This has only started bothering me recently.

To explain this adequately I think I need to give you some background on Orange. She is in relationships with Apple and Banana, but is not sexually 'exclusive' to them - she is quite fluid in that sense and sees other people. Banana IS exclusive (mono) to Orange and one of the boundaries that came with mine and Apple's relationship was that I was not comfortable with any sexual relationship outside of mine and Orange. The group they (Orange and Banana) socialise in is very fluid sexually too (Sorry if fluid is the wrong word, I am unsure of how to phrase this), they have intercourse with each other and whoever whenever. This in itself doesn't bother me, however one member of their group has recently become infected with Herpes. For obvious reasons, I do not want to become infected; this could have devastating consequences for myself and our baby. Many of the group also have intimate relations with others outside said group, who we don't know etc.
My worry is mainly centred around catching something. They do all get tested, about once a year usually, but how can I address this? I obviously cannot (and do not wish to) tell Orange what she can do with her sex life, but I do not wish to catch something. How do I take this up with Apple? When they do see each other I now panic when we get back into bed in case something is transferred. Do I ask Apple to use a barrier method, such as condoms (Orange is on the implant I believe)? Do I ask that sexual encounters outside of myself and him stop until our baby is born (November)? Is that fair? Do sexual relations between ALL of us (Apple, Orange and myself) stop until our baby is born?

My apologies for the mammoth post. It may be worth mentioning I also suffer from anxiety (which I receive treatment for) and I'm sure hormones aren't helping matters! As I have said I am very cautious about stepping on toes and don't want to insult Orange or come between her and Apple. Just looking for advice on how I can approach the above issues and about what is reasonable! My apologies if some of my terminology is terrible - I am also UK based if that helps.

H.
 
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Just be upfront. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that the focus be on you when you are dealing with healthcare issues. I also don't think asking him to use barriers to protect you and your baby from catching something unreasonable either. If he doesn't want to you and him can either use barriers or abstain
 
My partner, J, has one other partner, Z. Myself and J live together and are expecting a baby. We live a long distance from Z. Z has another partner, S, whom she lives with. J and Z talk a lot over IM and are gamers, so also do RPG a couple of times a week online. He sees Z less regularly . . .
Hello, would you please edit your post and give everyone nicknames/aliases instead of initials? It's too hard to read and keep track of who is who with just a letter standing for each person, and so I gave up. Especially when RPG popped up in there...

You have a 12-hour window within which to edit posts. Thanks!
 
I am answering this question as a survivor of obstetric emergencies, and the divorced, polyamorous mother of two. I usually don't recite that, but I think you need to know where I am coming from.

I am going to be ungenerous to your partner here. You are carrying his child. The pregnancy has certain consequences, including a certain amount of risk to your life and health. Pregnancy complications can go all the way up to dire peril, so I'm not willing to make light of them.

Fuck reasonable. Reasonable is for ordinary circumstances. Emergencies can sometimes require radical rearrangements in the status quo, also known as "all hands on deck." Infants have a similar effect.

What would make you feel comfortable? Ask for that.

You are having a complicated pregnancy, which may require you to rearrange your lives, and will hopefully be followed by a newborn, which will definitely require you to rearrange your lives. I would hope that your partner is not planning to go out of town again until your baby is safely in your arms at home, whenever that moment occurs. I would further hope that he has given thought to how he wants to approach his long-distance relationship while also being present for his child as a father, and you as a partner.

In light of these circumstances, it seems unexceptional to me that you might ask him to not be absorbed in text conversations while things are happening in the hospital/ when you are in the hospital at all/ unless he has supplied you with a fully-charged, internet-connected device dedicated entirely to your entertainment, since you are probably stuck in bed with no snacks while he is free to roam the world.

It is further understandable for you to ask if you could review your shared standards for safe sex, in light of your current concerns/concerns in general/ changes in your tolerance for risk as you consider impending parenthood.

Hang in there. My obstetrical emergency was terrifying, and my daughter is delightful. This can go well, even if it also goes badly. I hope, though, that you bore your doctors for another few months, and give birth to a child so perfect that no one medical finds the baby at all interesting.
 
Wait a minute - I did read enough to see that you are pregnant and asking if J should use condoms with Z? What??!!! Why isn't he already doing that? I don't understand. If Z and her network are very loose about these things, I don't know why in the hell J would not be using condoms! When did they fluid-bond? Were you okay with that?

Even poly folks who do not have a whole lot of rules and boundaries between them usually have very specific agreements about safer sex and protecting their sexual and reproductive health. If he won't use condoms with her, he should with you.
 
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With regards to the "in the moment" need - lots of time in hospitals/doctor's offices is spent waiting with nothing to do. If the two of you have already discussed everything that you can think of I think that any distraction from rehashing the obvious is actually ok. Whether it is txting GF or playing Candy Crush on his phone. Assuming that you are also free to pursue whatever distraction you like (commiserating with a friend or family member ...or playing Candy Crush).

With regards to the "fluid" sexuality of your/his network - I think that you ABSOLUTELY have the right (and responsibility) to request whatever modifications to behaviour that could affect you and your unborn child. If you are carrying (unknown to you) certain STIs that can have very serious consequences for your child. Chlamydia and gonorrhea can lead to blindness, herpes encephalitis is NO JOKE! If you KNOW you can protect your baby, if you don't...?

I am not one to ever jump to "with-holding sex" as a first line answer - but this is not JUST your own health you are talking about.
 
Nycindie, I have edited.
Also, yes, they have. He trusts her implicitly to be 'clean', but it is beginning to bug me bigtime, to the point we have not really had intercourse much recently.

Jane, in my case the hospital trip is usually very chaotic. If we were sat twiddling thumbs so to speak, I wouldn't have an issue.

All of your responses have however highlighted that I am being far too meek about barrier methods and this should be done now.

BlueShoes, thank you very much, your reply has hit hard, but in a very good way.
 
I've been practicing polyamory for 7+ years and I have used condoms with every single guy I have been involved with, except 2. And one of those guys only had one other partner with whom he had infrequent sex and used condoms. The other was mono with me. And it took me several months in both cases to trust them enough go fluid bonded.

Of course your h should be using condoms with his promiscuous gf! Good lord. "Trusting her" to be clean is ridiculous. I am horrified. Testing once a year when that group is having sex with multiple partners, and their partners are having sex with multiple other partners! Not nearly safe enough!

If he refuses to use a condom with her, of course you should insist he use one with you, even though you are pregnant. And in fact, even if he *says* he will use condoms with her, I still wouldn't trust him.

And if you are in crisis mode in a pregnancy related emergency, he should be focused on keeping you calm and cared for.

Gosh, if he's acting this way pre birth, what kind of a dad is he going to be?
 
Fuck reasonable.

Reasonable is for ordinary circumstances.
Exactly the thought that popped into my head. :)

It helps to have read some Shaw:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
Holic, there's no good reason that you should even be thinking about negotiating to maybe eventually be granted some support by your (urgh) partner.

If he's not willing to step up to the plate NOW, it's unlikely to get any better over time.
 
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I am sorry you struggle.

In your shoes? I would keep it simple, and be direct. Something like this...

"When we go to hospital visits, I find them very stressful and highly emotional times. Could you be willing to be fully present for me? Not be distracted with other things. Be alert, aware, and ready to advocate if I cannot do it for myself?" (List the behaviors you would like him to stop/start doing.)

I obviously cannot (and do not wish to) tell Orange what she can do with her sex life, but I do not wish to catch something.

YOU are responsible for your sex health. YOU do your birth control things/tests you need to use to feel ok. It that means condoms with you, use them. If you are not comfortable going barrier free... why are you going barrier free? :confused: Just tell him the new way of going with you so he is aware.

"After that whole STI thing, I have terrible anxiety regarding sexual relations between everyone. Now that I'm pregnant, it bothers me more. I want to relax about it and enjoy sharing sex and not be stressing about exposure to baby. I would like you to use condoms when we share sex. What kind do you like? I can go buy."


You cannot tell him what to be doing in his other relationships. You CAN speak up about how you want his relationship with YOU to go. He either steps it up on his behaviors and meets your personal standards or he doesn't.

Either way? You gain clarity about what kind of behaviors you can expect from you partner.

It is one thing "not to step on toes" and another thing to "fail to advocate for what I need."

I think you could spend some time figuring out how to speak up more. Perhaps that would help with the anxiety some -- knowing that you can handle speaking up.

Galagirl
 
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In your shoes, I would tell Apple that I am not comfortable having sexual contact with him until after birth (unless he's not seeing Orange IRL at all). At that time, I would re-evaulate and see how I feel about the risk. While in general I believe the stigma against herpes is ridiculous, in the case of pregnancy you do NOT want to contract it. I wouldn't risk it at all, so unless I trust my partner 100% to refrain from all sexual contact (which, unfortunately includes kissing) I would refrain for myself.

I had a baby early this year. To this day, it is a struggle for me to function if Hubby works late, let alone goes away for an entire weekend. To be fair, I have my own issues that add to the difficulty (I breastfeed but also have to pump at bedtime which is little girl's fussiest time).

Assuming you come home with a healthy baby and no major complications for you during birth, Apple is still looking at a solid month or two where he needs to be present with the baby as much as possible to form a solid bond. You're going to be recovering from some significant trauma to your body (especially if you require a c-section or have an extended/difficult labor). You're going to be bleeding, trying to figure out breastfeeding (that part's no joke - totally worth the effort if you're able, but sooo exhausting unless you're lucky enough for it to just work from the get go), dealing with sleep deprivation, getting to know this amazing tiny creature you created, and again if you're breastfeeding you're going to be hungry and thirsty ALL THE TIME with NO TIME to cook for yourself because - you know, tiny human sucking out your life force.

So, yeah. Apple is having a baby with you. That means doing all the parent stuff with you. That means other relationships being cut back to be a parent. I'm the one with a second relationship here, and you know what? Boy and I spend most of our time with Hubby and little girl. Why? Because my FIRST responsibility is to that tiny person that I brought into this world. Could she live without me being around? Sure, but emotionally she would suffer as would Hubby for having to deal with her crankiness. Not worth it. Over half a year later, and I still haven't spent a night away (although to be fair, that is commonly more difficult for mothers).

Ask for what you and your baby need. You need support during difficult medical appointments? Ask for it. Remind Apple that if your child has health problems, he'll be spending a lot more time in hospitals/medical offices and point out how it would make a child feel to have dad on the phone the whole time, seeming to not care. If he agrees it would be bad to treat a kid like that, find out why he feels it's okay to do it to you. If you feel you need more stringent safety precautions due to your history and your pregnancy, ask for it (and by ask for it, I mean inform him of what you need and if he refuses, opt out of sexual relations). Like I said, since herpes is so easily spread and not always detectable right away, I wouldn't risk it at all if he is knowingly putting himself in a risky situation. But I'm extreme.

Sorry for the over the top response. I obviously have strong, potentially hormone-related feelings about pregnancy support/parental responsibility.
 
Sorry for the over the top response. I obviously have strong, potentially hormone-related feelings about pregnancy support/parental responsibility.

I am out of the hormones range, and my strong feelings about pregnancy support and parental responsibility are a lot like yours.

What mostly killed my marriage was this: I spent the first six years of my relationship with my ex (including the first 4 of our marriage) totally willing to be the cool girl. Husband comes home late without calling? We're both capable adults, it's fine. Husband wants to go to a rave the night before I give a presentation? Have all the fun, babe, kiss me if we cross paths in the morning. Husband wants to spend the night with his girlfriend? Say hi to her for me, and tell her I'll call her back about having coffee. My husband wants to take four nights a week of dance and yoga classes? I'll lick his sweaty muscles once he's home. Our friends were so impressed with how easygoing I was, and how we made time for each other in our busy lives.

Then we had a baby. And my ex *still* wanted to do all those things (who wouldn't?) and I still wanted to be the cool girl who said yes to everything. Right up until the time he left me and the baby - both with stomach flu - home alone so he could go to a party. I passed out on the way to the bathroom (fortunately not either on the stairs or holding the baby), and he could never quite understand why I was so bitchy about the whole thing when I'd been so chill about him going out.

A baby in the house means you both need more from each other. Don't underestimate it, and don't fail to ask for it. I cannot guarantee that you'll get what you need, unfortunately, but I can guarantee you won't get it if you don't communicate about it.
 
Hi, Holic!

Other people have already given you great advice. I needn't repeat what they said, but I would go one step further on several fronts.

You say that Apple doesn't see Orange as often as he used to. (Is this due exclusively to the pregnancy? [not an important Q]) It is now late August. Your baby is due in November. A leeettle bit of patience and frustration is called for here.

a) Ask Apple to hold off on all physical contact (including kissing) with Orange until the baby is safe. Tough on Apple, but if he's going to be a father, he might as well get used to making sacrifices now. Good practice for later.

b) Nix on all sexual contact (including kissing) between you and Apple until he has been cleared 100% of herpes (not just "unless he stops contact with Orange"). Tough on you AND Apple, but ditto, ditto.

c) The alternative to a) + b) would be unbridled sex between Apple and Orange, but none (including kissing) between you and Apple. Tough on you, especially when you decide to kick the selfish bum :)p;)) out. (NOT recommended.)

d) In future, either STI-barriered sex between Apple and Orange or between you and Apple. "The bug stops here!" If they are fluid, there's no reason why you should drown.

e) No texting others during a stressful situation... unless the texting is an aid to solving the problem (e.g. to your doctor)... and then it needs to be a phone call.
 
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Hello Holic,

The way I would suggest talking to Apple would be to say, "Apple, I need your undivided attention at stressful times such as when we are at the hospital, so please don't IM Orange at that time." And, "Apple, I am concerned about our health and the health of our baby, so please use a condom with Orange." If he refuses either request, you'll need to decide how you'll respond to that. You can of course turn to this forum for further advice.

For now I am optimistically hoping he'll do as you ask. Keep us posted.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
As a follow on to Kevin's suggestion, if he's not willing to be fully present with you during hospital visits, do you have a reliable friend or family member that could accompany you instead? I know that you want him there not just for support but because he's the father, but the priority is the support. If he's stressing you out with his behaviour, he's stressing out your baby. Perhaps it would help to hammer home the issue and/or see where his priorities really are if you were to make some alternative arrangements the next appointment? I would certainly see that as a giant kick up my NRE fuelled backside in his shoes!
 
Also, have you asked him if there's any particular reason he's so flaky in the hospital? Most of us have bad experiences and associations with the medical world, and some people are genuinely freaked out and ill at ease with a hospital environment. If he's normally attentive to you and your pregnancies needs elsewhere, then maybe this is something to consider. Being glued to your device is classic avoidant behaviour.
 
I wouldn't assume bad intention with the hospital thing. Probably just hasn't realized how important it is. It's just a matter of asking and understanding then.

As for condoms, you sure have all right to ask him to wear condoms with Apple. He has all right to refuse, but then you can wear condoms with him or stop having sex altogether. Actually condoms may not be enough, so it you might consider stop having intercourse altogether for the remaining months of the pregnancy.
 
Hello all,

Thought I would update.

I explained my expectations of the barrier method in no uncertain terms to Apple. It was an emotional conversation, but it was done, he gets it. In fairness to him, he was suitably ashamed and has admitted he was immensely stupid for not thinking of and implicating this before. We are clear that should another baby be on the cards, there is absolutely no chance of unprotected fluid sex with Orange during or at any point. He has also said he will not be going anywhere until probably a few months after Christmas.

Thank you all for your advice. I sat up quite sharply reading those comments and realised that just because I am new to Poly, does not mean I have to be a doormat or tiptoe around things.

We are also attending some counselling to open up communication further, we both feel would benefit, so hopefully things will be on the up.
 
Thanks for that update. It sounds like Apple is acting more reasonable now. That's good to hear.

I hope the counseling goes well.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
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