Why Am I dragging my feet?

stillfiguringthingsout said:
Holy Smokes! WhatHappened, you are freaking me out! It is so eerie how very similar our situations are!
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I know that a very serious discussion is looming for Joseph and I, I need to know where I stand...if he's all talk or am I as important to him as he says I am? I in no way want him to push his wife aside, I would like to be able to stand beside her, not behind her.
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LOL...as I said, I had to check my security cameras to make absolutely SURE I don't have a split personality posting stuff here! :D

The thing is, I think for XBF, he was absolutely ripped in two. Yes, I was that important to him (send me a PM for more, there are many things I'm not going to say in public)), but so was Being a Faithful, Loyal, Loving Husband, and so was the image of the beautiful, traditional, loving, long-lasting marriage...and I suspect, too, he was torn between his two natures, the one that loved the faith aspect in me and the one that knew he could live his wildest fantasies with his wife.

I was that important to him, I truly believe that. He made huge changes in his life, voluntarily offered, (again, PM for details if it matters) because he wanted me to stay (and it was a beautiful gift, that did keep me there for two years, it so touched my heart), but he also couldn't explain to his family why, if he ever left his wife. It would destroy them to know about his 20 years of swinger parties and pot and poly, and he loves and cherishes them. And in truth, he didn't want to give up those swinger parties permanently. In the end, I would have to say, the parties and the image he gives to the world trumped his love for me.
 
stillfiguringthingsout said:
Does it ever occur to you it could go the other way?

You set healthy boundaries first. By doing so you begin treating yourself like you matter.



I wouldn't even know where to begin :(
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A healthy boundary would be saying: she can't interrupt us in the middle of private time, to take out the trash. House is on fire, yes. Dog needs to go out, no. If she keeps doing it, I quit coming over.
 
I wouldn't even know where to begin
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You don't have to right now. You merely IDENTIFY "areas to work on" and slot them in your folder.

This is not short term "one issue: one plan" stuff.

You have several layers of stuff going on. That requires a STRATEGY -- a collection of plans to address the various things in your life. I think you could get help making the strategy from a counselor.

If this were a newspaper the top headlines so far seem to be:

  • You growing confidence
  • You becoming more assertive
  • Joseph related issues.

Making the plan for each headliner? You address that with your counselor. If you have some loose tidbits that have no order - just stick them in the folder. The counselor can help you organize those too.

In your shoes? I would go like this as far as priorities:

1) Carry on with your plan to see a counselor. Find the person you want to make appointment with.

2) Make appointment first. THEN while waiting til appointment?

  • Continue to IDENTIFY areas to work on and slip it in your notes.
  • Could read about healthy boundaries or other topics online and print/slip good articles in your notes for discussion with counselor

3) In general? Boundaries describe what you are willing/not willing to deal in with people and how they treat you. With a consequence YOU do if the line is crossed. They are for you to do, not for the other person to do.

Examples:

I notice your wife interrupts us when we are at your house having date time for non-emergency issues. I prefer you sort that out with her. In the meanwhile, I prefer to meet at my house or at restaurant or elsewhere for our dates. Then it becomes a non-issue. (<-- meeting at your house or elsewhere is a thing you can do. This is fair and neutral. )

I am tired. I am no longer willing to come to your place every week. I have noticed it is usually me doing all the traveling. I would like to take turns each week. (<--- stating your willingness to taking turns is something you can do. This is fair and neutral.)

You encourage me to tell me how I feel. I am telling you how I feel. I would like active listening. When I experience you doing defensive listening, and flipping it around on me?I do not like it. I am willing to address issues. I am willing to do a defensive listening worksheet or class with you. I am not willing to play flipperoo. (<-- stating your position clearly is something you can do.)​

But don't jump the gun right now. One thing at a time here. You just posted this a few days ago. You don't have to have all the answers this minute.

Find you counselor, collect your data, interpret data and make out the long term strategy with counselor help. Prioritize.

I'm glad talking online helps, but Internet people can only take you so far, YKWIM?

Keep going!

Galagirl
 
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A healthy boundary would be saying: she can't interrupt us in the middle of private time, to take out the trash. House is on fire, yes. Dog needs to go out, no. If she keeps doing it, I quit coming over.

So I guess "Not waking Joseph and I up in the morning to make us all breakfast" would be a reasonable boundary? I'm being completely serious here.... lol
 
Galagirl,

These are three major issues that I have:

I notice your wife interrupts us when we are at your house having date time for non-emergency issues. I prefer you sort that out with her. In the meanwhile, I prefer to meet at my house or at restaurant or elsewhere for our dates. Then it becomes a non-issue. (<-- meeting at your house is a thing you can do. This is fair and neutral. )

I am tired. I am no longer willing to come to your place every week. I have noticed it is usually me doing all the traveling. I would like to take turns each week. (<--- stating your willingness to taking turns is something you can do. This is fair and neutral.)

You encourage me to tell me how I feel. I am telling you how I feel. I would like active listening. When I experience you doing defensive listening, and flipping it around on me?I do not like it. I am willing to address issues. I am willing to do a defensive listening worksheet with you. I am not willing to play flipperoo. (<-- stating your position clearly is something you can do.)

You guys are truly amazing :D
 
stillfiguringthingsout said:
A healthy boundary would be saying: she can't interrupt us in the middle of private time, to take out the trash. House is on fire, yes. Dog needs to go out, no. If she keeps doing it, I quit coming over.

So I guess "Not waking Joseph and I up in the morning to make us all breakfast" would be a reasonable boundary? I'm being completely serious here.... lol
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That is trying to control her actions, which makes it a "rule" rather than a boundary. A boundary would be more along the lines of "Uninterrupted alone time is something we cannot experience at our house, so I would like to do overnights at my place."
 
So I guess "Not waking Joseph and I up in the morning to make us all breakfast" would be a reasonable boundary? I'm being completely serious here.... lol
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Yes. Unasked for gifts of service are not gifts.

"Thank you for your willingness to make breakfast in the past. I've appreciated it. I wanted to make you aware that at this time I prefer to get up on my own. In future, please do not wake me up. I would appreciate that. (<-- boundary = stop waking you up!)

I am willing to make my breakfast or go out to get some. I am also happy to chip in for groceries for the house when I visit." (<-- what you can offer to do so she doesn't have to be making you food. You can remove the reason for waking you up.)​

She can make y'all breakfast and leave it with a note if she just want to be nice. It can reheat.
No need to wake people up. You are not children or dependents she is responsible for feeding.

Or if she wants to actually offer to gift this act of service? She could check in SOONER on whether breakfast is desired before people go to bed or even before they spend the weekend. ASK FIRST, rather than just foisting it on you and jerking you out of sleep.

She keeps not asking first and jerking you awake? That is her behavior. You can ASK her to stop that and do something else instead, but you cannot make her change.

You CAN remove yourself so her "waking people up with food" behavior does not affect you. You can not spend the night any more. That is your behavior. Problem solved and made non-issue.

YOU hold your boundary with consequences you can do.

Galagirl
 
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stillfiguringthingsout said:
When I talk about how I feel, what I am able to live with, it's a boundary...when I blame or try to change someone else's behavior, it becomes a rule?
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Essentially, yes.

As GalaGirl says, you can make reasonable requests, but you can't actually control someone else's behavior. So, set your boundaries for you. Ask for reasonable accommodations (and I agree, "gifts" of service aren't gifts if they're unasked for and unwanted), but know that there is no obligation by anyone else to comply, which is where boundaries come in. You get to choose what you can live with.
 
When I talk about how I feel, what I am able to live with, it's a boundary...when I blame or try to change someone else's behavior, it becomes a rule?
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Personal Boundary -- guidelines, rules or limits that you create to identify to yourself what are reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave around you and how YOU will respond when someone crosses the line. (Ex: People cannot stand in my body space when talking to me. I will take a step back if they get too close. I will speak up if they do it again. I will tell them to please step back and please be aware they are crowding me.)

Rule (noun) -- an statement for expectation of behavior that the people it affects have come up with together and/or agree to abide by because it makes reasonable sense for all. (ex: We all agree to pee and poop in the toilet, not wherever on the floors, beds, and sofas in order to maintain cleanliness. We all agree to close the door when we come in so the cat doesn't run out. We all agree to practice safer sex like using condoms and get regular sex health labs.)

Rule (verb) -- You are the Queen/Dictator person and you rule your subjects. They have no voice in what happens to them. You are the ruler. You rule.

I think green is ok in polyshipping. Everyone is allowed their personal boundaries. You can try to change someone's behavior by ASKING if they are willing/not willing to do something. Like abide by certain agreements for getting along ok together. People are free to ask you things too. Everyone is free to say yes or no.

I think red is not ok. It is not ok for anyone to DEMAND or TELL you what to do. It is not ok for you to do that to others.

Be aware there are some people in this world who do NOT like to practice self control. When asked to do so, they will accuse you of trying to control them. When you are simply ASKING. They might yell, act out, try to cow you from ever asking them again to control themselves or make a decision that requires them to be personally accountable.

I have a relative like that. The simplest way I deal with that type? Be flat, not react. Repeat the question:

"I am not trying to control you. I am asking you if you are willing or not willing to do X. You are the still the boss of you. I just want to know what your answer is. What is your answer?"

If he hems and haws? I go "Ok, I'm not hearing "yes I am willing" so I will just take it as a no. Thank you."

Then I move on with my life. It doesn't revolve around his even if he'd like it to.

Galagirl
 
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Re (from stillfiguringthingsout):
"Isn't that a conversation I need to have with Joseph alone? I feel including his wife in the conversation would give her even more power than she has now if that's even possible."
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If she is a very controlling person and he bends to her will, then having the conversation without her around might be the thing to do.

Re (from stillfiguringthingsout):
"Do you think I should show him this thread?"
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I'll vote yes -- with a caution that he may not like what he reads.

Re (from GreenAcres):
"Possibly, a counselor may help you (even going on your own, to give you tools for how to address this kind of communication manipulation constructively)?"
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Good idea, and here are some resources for finding a poly-friendly counselor:

And if you should find a good counselor who's not familiar with poly but who's willing to learn, ask them to read "What Psychology Professionals Should Know about Polyamory," a book by Geri Weitzman, Ph.D., Joy Davidson, Ph.D., and Robert A. Phillips, Jr., Ph.D.

Re (from stillfiguringthingsout):
"So I guess 'Not waking Joseph and I up in the morning to make us all breakfast' would be a reasonable boundary?"
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Perfectly reasonable.

  • Boundary = you state what you will do in response to various circumstances.
  • Rule = you tell someone else what they're allowed to do (as if they must obey).
  • Agreement = a rule set by two or more people (governing themselves and/or others).
That's all I have for now; all the counsel you're getting so far in this thread is very good.
 
Thank you everyone for your input, advice and experience! You all have helped me immensely, not just in being able to talk about what's going on in my life but you've helped me to clarify why I'm dragging my feet. :D
I will revisit this thread often and I have hope that I can create a relationship with Joseph that is healthy and makes us happy. More importantly, you've given me some tools to work with, resources to explore and friends to confide in.
I have a tough road ahead of me but I'm willing to "Lean In".

I'll keep you posted!!

Thank you again!
 
Hi still figuring,

You've gotten some great specific advice about your current untenable situation. Here is more information about the primary/secondary issue, with a "Bill of Rights for Secondaries" partway down the page. I find it empowering to read. All too often, in our mono culture, a person who is a secondary puts her partner's spouse before herself. She takes the crumbs from the original couples' table. This does not need to be the case!

http://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html

The article concludes with this summation:

"I have the right to have a voice in the form my relationship takes. I am a person, with my own needs and my own ideas about what’s important in my life; even when I am joining a pre-existing relationship, I have a right to have some say in the time I can spend with my lover and other things about the form and structure of that relationship. If my partners attempt to impose pre-existing agreements about the form, time, or circumstances under which I may spend time with my lover, I have a right to speak up if those agreements do not meet my needs, and I have a right to have my partner and my partner’s partner hear me and consider what I say. That doesn’t mean they have to do whatever I say, but it does mean that I can and should have a voice."
 
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Magdlyn said:
Hi still figuring,

You've gotten some great specific advice about your current untenable situation. Here is more information about the primary/secondary issue, with a "Bill of Rights for Secondaries" partway down the page. I find it empowering to read. All too often, in our mono culture, a person who is a secondary puts her partner's spouse before herself. She takes the crumbs from the original couples' table. This does not need to be the case!

http://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html

The article concludes with this summation:

"I have the right to have a voice in the form my relationship takes. I am a person, with my own needs and my own ideas about what’s important in my life; even when I am joining a pre-existing relationship, I have a right to have some say in the time I can spend with my lover and other things about the form and structure of that relationship. If my partners attempt to impose pre-existing agreements about the form, time, or circumstances under which I may spend time with my lover, I have a right to speak up if those agreements do not meet my needs, and I have a right to have my partner and my partner’s partner hear me and consider what I say. That doesn’t mean they have to do whatever I say, but it does mean that I can and should have a voice."
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Thank you Magdlyn...I will read this closely and perhaps show it to Joseph. The advice I've received on this forum has been invaluable, and the support amazing. You are all truly exceptional people :)
 
Keep us posted if you're willing ... Glad we've been able to help so far.
 
I sure will Kevin :)

I did end up going to Joseph's on Thursday evening and it was fine...oddly enough I felt like something was up with him, he seemed a little distant but maybe I'm projecting my own feeling on to him.

This weekend is the perfect opportunity for me to do some serious soul searching as Joseph has family visiting for the weekend and week.

A conversation will be in our near future and I'm sure I will come here looking for moral support :)
 
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