Wuthering Heights with less drama

[CuriousCathy]

I’ve been lurking here for some years and this is yet another attempt to commit my story to writing but I’m not sure I will be brave enough to post, let alone continue as a blog, but maybe it will be helpful, who knows?!


I’m 40, hetero female, happily married to a wonderful human, hetero male, let’s call him Edgar, for 10+ years. We have two children. The big picture is that life is good (when I don’t think about cost of living, mortgage and other such things).


When I was 19, about a month after I first met Edgar (we had a hobby in common), I went overseas on an internship, where I met Heathcliff. We clicked and got on amazingly well as friends. He was together with a girl and I was pretty sure back then that I didn’t have any romantic aspirations towards Heathcliff. With benefit of hindsight, it might be that I clamped down on any hint of limerance as he was unavailable and there was no question that I was going back home after 3 months to continue university, so any relationship would have been non-viable. I was always very pragmatic and mostly pretty rational like that.


A couple of months after returning home, Edgar and I got together and have been together ever since. He is my only sexual partner to date. We have had libido mismatch over the years multiple times, especially after each child, but mostly we still average out to be about matched sexually. So far so straightforward, yet here I am on a polyamory forum.


All these 20 years and despite living thousands of miles apart, Heathcliff has remained in my life as a great friend/ brother-like figure. About 2 years after we first met on my internship, we caught up in person again, at which point Heathcliff came out as gay. I thought, back then, that the pieces fell into place and it explained a lot about our connection which didn’t seem to have sexual attraction.


We have stayed in touch all these years, continued to see each other at every opportunity including short trips together, attended each other’s big life events wherever possible, etc. Edgar and our eldest child (youngest only met him on Skype so far due to distance) get on with Heathcliff really well. All our close friends have met Heathcliff over the years and everyone always got on with each other amazingly. He is just a good soul and we are super lucky to have so many wonderful people in our lives.


We are not perfect, I’m shouty and Edgar can be a lazy bum at home, but I can’t discount our luck with regard to friendships. When we are close friends with a person, it feels like friends forever, the kind where you can drop a conversation and pick it up months later and it’s still like you never left off. I’m not particularly extrovert and neither is Edgar, so maybe that’s why we cherish our few friendships with people we have connected with over the years.


We also have busy full time jobs, maintaining two completely different but demanding careers. A lot of the time it means life is so busy that I haven’t had much time to think about existential things, especially in my 20s/early 30s.


Heathcliff has had several committed monogamous long term relationships over these 20years. The longest was about 5 years. The reason they tend to break off is because he is even more committed to his high intensity job and this comes in between most partners. I work in a related field (in a different country) so I understand the dedication required. I also get why his partners felt devalued in comparison - I deliberately chose the related field myself mostly because I knew that the other was not sustainable with Edgar’s career (I do like my job, and I know I would have come to resent the other career path eventually). I also get that Heathcliff is trapped where he is, for mostly his own psychological reasons, but there are some contractual hooks as well.


I have done my best to support him emotionally through break ups - he was particularly devastated by a couple. Every time it honestly felt like I was hurting with him. The last time I saw him before the pandemic, he was in a good place psychologically and preparing to go to another country for a year for some further work experience.


Just before I saw Heathcliff pre-pandemic, Edgar and I were having a particularly mismatched libido phase, where I was really not into having sex. Cuddling, spooning, etc was fine, but things like Edgar shaving (he dislikes shaving and sports an afternoon stubble which looks good on him but I hate it when it grazes my face) would send me totally frigid. It was then that I realised that I actually don’t mind if Edgar has another partner and this is how my polyamory research began. We sorted out our libido issues with psychologist’s help, but my curiosity was peaked and the more I read about open communication, loving without possession, compersion and ethics in ENM, the more I learnt about myself and the more things made sense.

Part 2 to follow/ this got crazy long!

 

[CuriousCathy]

Part 2:

Yes, so this discovery that I’m poly was after 15 years of being monogamous, but life had been so busy I never had time to figure these things out in my head until then and I also think, that to do this, I needed some space away from a conservative upbringing. Edgar gave me that (safe) space. I ticked the major life expectations from my family (good job, happily married to a sensible man, child) and that put me in a different headspace to where I was in my 20s when most people around me were navigating relationships, experimenting, etc.


So, 5 years ago, Edgar and I had our first conversation where I explained that I’m ok with him having other partners if that is what he wants. That I might wish to explore this for myself later, but not right then as I need a strong emotional and intellectual connection before any sexual desires can even stir and there was no time to build that + my libido was non-existent and I found I didn’t miss it.


Edgar said that while he appreciates where I’m coming from, he is probably more on the monogamous end of the spectrum and doesn’t particularly want to have sex with anyone other than me. So we left it at that, fixed some other things in our marriage and my libido eventually returned to baseline (it was probably mostly hormonal / post childbirth, just lasted longer than I would have thought normal, busy job didn’t help).


So, 4 years ago, Heathcliff leaves on his work experience and unexpectedly for everyone (including him) becomes attracted to and gets together with a female colleague there. He had slept with women over the years occasionally and never had any spark but this was a relationship of almost a year. He goes back to his home country after that year. Then the pandemic happens and we get trapped in our respective countries and workplaces. We stay in touch as always.


Fast forward 4 years to the last few weeks. Edgar and I go away on a short holiday without children, followed by my trip to see Heathcliff as I have a work-related activity near where he lives. We have an uninterrupted opportunity to reconnect properly with Edgar and have the headspace for a frank conversation re: I’m still probably poly, he’s probably still mono, but we are both happy that maybe down the track we might experiment with ENM. We establish that swinging is not for us as each of us needs a strong, multilevel connection with a potential partner before any sexual activity can occur.


I should mention that Heathcliff and I are pretty touchy-feely with each other (about the same, if not more than, with Edgar) - we always have been - Edgar has never had problems with that. I have shared a bed with Heathcliff many times when we’ve done short trips together (but we have not had sex or had any desire to), but he’s now technically bi and I checked whether Edgar has any issues with that - which Edgar confirmed he doesn’t, in fact his words were “do what you feel is right”.


In short, neither Edgar nor I have ever been jealous of each other, nor possessive, etc - I think the reason we lasted so long together is the underlying trust of “do no harm” towards each other and we let each other be their own person. We are in each other’s lives for as long as we are both alive - it’s understood at a very deep level, it’s a good place to be in.


Finally, I see Heathcliff and my heart jumps. We have not seen each other for 5 years and that’s the longest we’ve ever gone without being able to hug each other etc. I recover a part of my soul I didn’t know was missing. We spend amazing three days catching up on everything properly, nature walks, lots of hugs, lots of holding each other, etc. I discovered that I am terrified it might happen again that it could be another few years before I see him again. As we all learnt with covid, this can be totally outside our control. He tells me about his current boyfriend who knows about me but is a bit of an introvert so had encouraged Heathcliff to spend time with me, since I’m only there for a few days.


So I am now stuck. I clearly love Heathcliff. As much as I love Edgar. Would I pursue a sexual relationship with Heathcliff? - and the answer now is “yes, in a heartbeat” - surely that’s crazy after 20years?! I have no idea how he feels about this aspect and I don’t want to risk our friendship over this, especially since at best it could only be a LDR. Will I regret not telling him? He knows I’m poly and he knows Edgar is ok with it.


To make things more complicated, now that I’ve gone on to my work-related activity, boyfriend is apparently not happy. Not sure whether it’s me or something else altogether. I’ve taken a step back from messaging and asking more questions to give them space. But I’m due to stop over at his in 2 days before I fly home. I hope they patch up over whatever it is, but I am also worried I’ve messed this up. It’s my guilt over my own changed feelings, which Heathcliff is highly likely not aware of.


Is it a subtype of NRE (as in I know the guy warts and all, so not exactly projecting onto an unknown person, but the energy is definitely different) that’s driving this? I’m at my least fertile in a month, usually it’s an uncomfortable period with dryness and zero libido - but I’m getting the opposite. The tug of war in my head is a constant whether I should confess or not. I guess I need a sign it might be reciprocated and all the usual signs of reciprocation of attraction are our normal. I am worried I might miss something more subtle, in either direction.


Also Heathcliff has his relationship with his boyfriend and I don’t want to compromise that. Afterall, I will be gone for at least a year again. He used to get jealous with his partners and has been serially monogamous himself. We’ve discussed jealousy and what might be driving it for him (upbringing). Although he’s mellowed over the years on the possessive lover front, I haven’t dared to explore further.

Yikes. How did I even get this far??? And where to from here?




P.s. boyfriend wants to meet me after all. We are meeting tomorrow night for dinner.


Do I seek clarification to understand the dynamic beforehand somehow? Or do I go in blind?


Am I a threat? Possibly: on the one hand, I want Heathcliff to be happy in whatever intimate relationship he has and I want to be reassuring to all parties on that front. On the other hand, I would get upset if I sense there is any cruelty, however subconscious, towards Heathcliff.

 

[Evie]

You're a yes, Edgar's a yes. That's better than half the people who post here.

Heathcliff could be a yes but you don't know because:
1. He's in a relationship with someone else.
2. He could be blindsided.
3. His partner could be blindsided.

Although you probably know because:

1. Every indicator in Heathcliff's dating behaviour to date indicates a strong preference for monogamy.

But you're trying to justify it to yourself because:

1. You're a known quantity. Heathcliff knows Edgar and might be able to wrap his head around a sexual liaison with you.
2. Long distance could be quite convenient in your circumstances.

This honestly sounds like it could be a movie plot.

What on earth made you attracted to him after this long of platonic friendship? Oh, yes, Covid. The distance making the heart grow fonder. The approaching middle age suddenly making you attracted to people you've not wanted sex with before.

Could you at least wait until Edgar's single again? That way you're only blindsiding one person, small mercies. Or could you just keep enjoying the friendship you have and allow the feelings to pass rather than potentially nuke your friendship? Sounds like he's a 4 on the Kinsey Scale and you are hoping you're (suddenly) the exception because of the longevity of your friendship.

Ask yourself, what if he was a no? Even sans boyfriend. He just doesn't see you that way despite you suddenly seeing him that way. What next? Greater distance?

And if he said yes. What next? A yes isn't an indicator of plain sailing, it's usually an indicator of a hell of a lot more work in the future. Do you really want to turn your friendship into work? Muddy the waters?

Whatever you decide, it's going to be an emotional labour for you. You could choose the path of least likely harm. Would you be prepared to do that? Let sleeping dogs lie?

 

[Magdlyn]

Usually our blog section is not a place for much discussion. But it's perfectly fine to request feedback on your blog. You might get more variety of feedback in if you posted something about your quandary in the Poly Relationships Corner section, however.

I think one thing to remember in polyamory is, "Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD."

Just because you found out Heathcliff is actually bi and not gay doesn't mean you should enter into a full-on sexual relationship with him. Good platonic friendships are hard to find. I've treasured many friendships I've had over the years with gay men. Maybe the nice cuddles are enough as far as touch.

My libido was like yours when I was married and fertile. Up and down. Up during ovulation, down otherwise, and definitely down when I was parenting infants/toddlers/preschoolers. I was touched out and sleep deprived, overworked. But when I hit 42 and perimenopause started, all bets were off. I became a sex fiend and it hasn't changed, 25 years later haha

(I was also living monogamously, because I thought that's what one does. Things would have been different if my ex h and I had been able to do poly properly. But it was not to be. We broke up for various reasons after 30 years together and moved on.)

I know you're feeling a new way about Heathcliff. I sympathize with strong crushes. But maybe the friendship is more important than scratching your sexual itch. Take it out on Edgar. Get a new vibrator. Look for another partner, even. That's my take, on what little you've written.

It's very well-written, by the way. I'm glad you decided to post, finally.

 

[CuriousCathy]

Thank you, Evie!!!

I really appreciate you taking the time to break it down into understandable anchor points.

This honestly sounds like it could be a movie plot.

- Lol! I think I’ve tried to write it down so often, it’s developed a flow. But it’s not a plot, it’s just life

Just to clarify, there is one thing I forgot to mention when I talked about Heathcliff’s past tendency to monogamy and mellowing of jealousy over the years. One of his more recent longterm relationships was with a male hinge in a MMF “v” set-up. He was in a good place then. It ended amicably (for once), mainly d/t covid restrictions on inter-household movement in his locality and the job. Heathcliff also became good at introspection with time - he has capacity to assess complex situations on merit, rationally, including about himself.

1. Every indicator in Heathcliff's dating behaviour to date indicates a strong preference for monogamy.

So no, I am not entirely sure on this one.

But everything else you mention is absolutely spot-on and I will mull it over.

Nuking the friendship is one thing I am worried about. The other, is that it might take ages to burn out on my side as I can only ever bring this up in person and ideally when he’s single, that’s two things that are tricky to line up d/t distance. And distance will make the “yes” fantasy hover in my head for longer, I fear.

 

[CuriousCathy]

Usually our blog section is not a place for much discussion

Yes! I wondered about where best to post. I thought it was a bit too long for the other section. I was happy if my questions were treated as largely rhetorical. I had to write them down to really SEE them for what they are. However, I do appreciate the clear, measured feedback from you and Evie

I think one thing to remember in polyamory is, "Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD."

- thank you, it’s a timely and grounding reminder!

when I hit 42 and perimenopause started, all bets were off.

- that’s an interesting perspective. I am descendant of women who had “late menopause” (my mother’s health issues brought this one to light at some point) so I haven’t thought that far. Of course perimenopause can hit at any point and last however long. I did wonder if this is what it was, but I haven’t had any other new changes (yet) - period like clockwork, sleep like a log, always freezing cold/ need twice as many blankets as Edgar, etc.


“Look for another partner, even.”
- I wondered about that. It just takes me so long to build a multi-level connection (time, effort, etc), most men would get turned off. The two men I’d ever want to have sex with I’ve known for 20 years! Even with Edgar, in the throes of early 20s passion, it took me about 4 months solid of monogamous dating before we had sex. I’m surprised he stuck out that long, to be honest

As for taking it out on Edgar - I’m just a little worried: I’m very visual - closing my eyes and having an inadvertent mental image of Heathcliff would be cheating. I guess I need to find that vibrator when I finally get home!

It's very well-written, by the way. I'm glad you decided to post, finally.

- thank you! I didn’t know I needed this kindness until I read it. Much appreciated

 

[Magdlyn]

I don't agree that fantasizing about someone else occasionally during sex is cheating, at all! I have done it quite a bit. It's only a problem if you can only have and enjoy sex with one person at all if you're thinking about someone else. After all, some poly people do share threeway sex. You might be thinking about Anne when you've got Burt's cock inside you. Or actually touching her. lol There is also roleplay or just talking during sex about imagined fantasies including someone else, either someone you know, some imagined person, a celebrity, etc.

Not that I think you should enroll Edgar in inviting Heathcliff into the bed in spoken fantasies. He might not appreciate that. Is he aware of your changing feelings about H though? Do you want to tell him, if not?

 

[CuriousCathy]

One more thing about finding another partner - my (mid-sized) town is really a big village, with all the judgemental idiosyncrasies of such. I work for a major employer, Edgar works for another major employer and this sort of thing will come out sooner rather than later. It could make my life (and Edgar’s and potentially that of another partner) extremely difficult at the moment, as we are still advancing along the career ladder respectively. In 5-10 year’s time I wouldn’t give a damn. Edgar is freer than me in that he’s a man / would generate less gossip - some concerned soul might just tell me he’s cheating. Also, he travels regularly for his work, I do so a lot less frequently.

 

[CuriousCathy]

I don't agree that fantasizing about someone else occasionally during sex is cheating, at all! I have done it quite a bit. It's only a problem if you can only have and enjoy sex with one person at all if you're thinking about someone else. After all, some poly people do share threeway sex. You might be thinking about Anne when you've got Burt's cock inside you. Or actually touching her. lol There is also roleplay or just talking during sex about imagined fantasies including someone else, either someone you know, some imagined person, a celebrity, etc.

Not that I think you should enroll Edgar in inviting Heathcliff into the bed in spoken fantasies. He might not appreciate that. Is he aware of your changing feelings about H though? Do you want to tell him, if not?

Hah! I clearly haven’t thought of it that way. Will mull over.

Re: I mentioned that my feelings towards Heathcliff have been changing in the last few years but I last spoke to Edgar before I got the full on lightning strike when I saw Heathcliff. We are on different schedules with Edgar at the moment, so exchanging messages rather than talking (usual for us in the circumstances). I have never had the lightning strike experience before, so I’m a fair bit out of my depth here. Trying to reign in this new impulsivity is very strange!!!!

 

[CuriousCathy]

oh and no, threesome is definitely NOT on the cards!

 

[Magdlyn]

oh and no, threesome is definitely NOT on the cards!

No, I didn't mean you should plan that. It was just an example of what is not considered cheating in ENM/polyamory, by many.

Do you think your libido is spiking just because of the joyous reunion with your best friend, or is it increasing in general? Are you more open to sex with Edgar, or is it only thinking about Heath that gets your motor running? I am thinking about you telling Edgar about your new feelings for Heath. Will he feel badly if you and he are barely having sex, yet you're newly hot for Heath?

On the other hand, it's OK to be attracted to whoever, and to have NRE for someone else, as well as to have your libido change due to hormones or more rest or whatever.

Sometimes we decide we don't really want to date others, but we want to be free to admit to crushes without being judged by our nesting partner. We want to assure them of their important place in our lives, while still admitting to other attractions. After all, Edgar has no doubt had other attractions as well. We are just encourage to lie about them in our mono culture.

If you really can't think how to approach this with Edgar without hurting him a lot, best read a good book about ENM like Opening Up.

It's ironic that you suggested opening for Edgar's sake when your libido was low, and now you're the one that wants to open.

 

[CuriousCathy]

Hm, do I think my libido is spiking in general? - no, not particularly. It’s just in a good place at the moment. We had a lovely time with Edgar just before. I think it’s more the reunion and possibly subconscious fear that it will be ages before Heathcliff and I see each other again. It adds an urgency dimension. I am reasonably confident that Edgar is happy with our sex life - we are not in the “barely” phase at the moment. His baseline tends to be similar to mine when I’m in a good place, which I have been. And now I’m NREing I think, so it would be outpacing Edgar right now!

Edgar and I have pretty good communication normally and I can (and do) talk to him about everything and anything. Sometimes/ with more sensitive things, I have to pick my timing, as does he. We know we’ve had attractions elsewhere, it’s been normalised and between the two of us the taboos of monogamy are not particularly prominent. Heathcliff mentioned the other day that, when younger, he would have got terribly jealous if he had seen his intimate partner dancing with another (close contact) - he acknowledged also that it’s an overreaction that he has outgrown.

With Edgar, our hobby in common is dancing socially and there we swap partners all the time. I’m not short of hugs or positive attention from other men and same goes for him/other women. Edgar has more exposure to this than me as I go out less than he does b/c I like being with the kids on Fri nights - I’ll call them Bean Stalk and Little Bean. Edgar tends to have more quality time with the Beans than I do during the week, so he’s the one desperate for adult conversation with other people whereas I’m sick of it by Fri night as I talk to adults all week at work! It’s never been an issue and I still go to a few festival type events with him in other cities.

We haven’t acted on our attractions from the dance scene -Edgar because he feels more comfortable with me (at this stage anyway). I haven’t because it’s just a bit of mild flirting/ connection is too superficial for me. Also, the dance scene is small where we are/ it would be actively not great to entertain anything there as would be awkward for small village reasons.

Yes I am acutely aware of the irony of me wanting to open up at this time, but it also has logic to it, I suppose.

 

[CuriousCathy]

There is another reason why Heathcliff is particularly attractive for exploring a V arrangement (however hypothetically) - he is safe. If, as @Evie has put it, Heathcliff is a “yes” - if anyone we know bumped into us on the street, they would not bat an eyelid that our arms are draped around each other. Half our social media photos are like that, have been for years. I don’t have to out myself as poly to anyone outside Edgar and Heath (I do fear being outed too soon / see my earlier post re small village/judgemental attitudes).


And there is one more nuance, the previous time I saw Heathcliff (5 years ago, shortly after I just started looking into polyamory), we talked about how life has taken us in different directions to what we thought it would be when we first met. Heath initiated it. We ran through our projected scenarios from youth and Heath concluded that “we would have made a perfect couple” - he is right in a sense, except, as I pointed out, without what we learnt about ourselves in the years, we would have also burnt each other badly. That conversation was actually another stepping stone which led to where I am today, I am sure. So while it was a lightning strike moment 5 days ago, there was at least some build up to it/ it’s not as sudden as it would appear. Saying all that, it is entirely possible I’m overanalysing in my search for answers for “why this? Why now?”.

 

[Magdlyn]

It's interesting that Heath said you two could've been the perfect couple, except for XYZ... one of the factors being his identity as a gay man, I suppose. But I guess he's now comfortable with being bi, to a degree.

I bet people that see all your social media pix already think of Heath as your second husband, in a way! haha

 

[CuriousCathy]

It's interesting that Heath said you two could've been the perfect couple, except for XYZ... one of the factors being his identity as a gay man, I suppose. But I guess he's now comfortable with being bi, to a degree.

I bet people that see all your social media pix already think of Heath as your second husband, in a way! haha

Hah! More food for thought, thank you, Magdlyn. The more I churn through all this, the more it starts to feel possible that the crush might just burn out before I see Heath next year (I’m on my way home now to the BeanStalk and LittleBean).

Yes, one of the “except” factors was definitely his orientation, which was more like a Kinsey 5 at the time, and is now sitting around 3. Even if the orientation mismatch wasn’t there, the other factor was belief in monogamy - we would have tried desperately to conform whereas distance and career requirements would have made us LDR for at least some years, which would have been tricky to maintain.

The Z in the XYZ: I would have struggled with Heath’s boy brain when we were younger. Edgar’s boy brain is/was easier to get used to because he has more time for us, he’s not reactionary and doesn’t escalate arguments (Edgar is 5 years older than me, Heath and I are almost the same age). Let’s just say holding my tongue is something I had to train myself to do and I’m still not great at it at home!

I think Heath and I would have had epic fights and then just as epic reconciliations. Eventually one of us would have had enough. Also, I think in my 20s I would have fed off his jealousy towards me with regard to attention from others. For example he is very observant and would pick up on when I was being checked out by guys when we were younger - I was completely oblivious/ managed to not develop a radar. Edgar only half jokes when he says that I’m so straight up and honest that I can’t flirt! So dancing as a hobby, for example, would have definitely been off the table if Heath and I were together when younger.

Being reactionary myself, I would have retaliated with jealousy towards Heath because I would have been secondary to the job (or at least I would have seen it that way when younger).

Now that both of us have matured, it’s a completely different playing field. I can call out when he’s being a boy without charging it emotionally. He will actually listen. Also, as I mentioned earlier, LDR (if we ever get into one) is now a godsend, whereas 20 years ago it would have been a problem.


As for social media - not sure, tbh. My close friends know we’ve been platonic and I’ve only outed myself here and to an extent to Edgar. If the crush is still going strong when Edgar returns from his extended work trip in September, I’ll tell him then - not the sort of thing I can mention in a WhatsApp message!

I should probably be careful though - I hardly post personal stuff on social media since covid and I have a lot more colleagues added as friends on social media in the last 3 years. Being seen as weird (and poly is definitely weird where I circulate) can cost career progression where I am. It’s THAT small.

 

[CuriousCathy]

So Heathcliff’s boyfriend didn’t come to dinner last night in the end. It was a case of a simple mistranslation between Heath and I, preceded by Heath projecting his own insecurities in his relationship. The good news is that the boyfriend (Ned) was totally fine with Heath spending another night with me, so I’m not a threat. Yay!

I should probably explain the mistranslation bit. Heathcliff, Edgar and I each have different native languages. I speak enough of Heath’s to be able to communicate with him in it (that’s why I was on an internship in his country all those years ago), Heath speaks enough English to function as well. However, I don’t speak enough of Edgar’s language (it’s a lot harder than the ones I know!) so we use English between each other and our kids are trilingual via “one parent - one language” upbringing. Edgar and I live in an English-speaking country and this approach works for us for the time being. The kids might rebel later, who knows, at least we tried! So, Heath and I normally start out in one language and whoever runs out of vocabulary first (usually for some complex thing), switches to the other language, messages are usually in both. Occasionally we get Tower of Babel moments, like the dinner plan last night.

So I still haven’t met Ned and I’m not sure that they will last long enough for me to do so.

Heath and I had an awesome evening with yummy food and deep conversation. Among the many topics we talked about, was potential longevity of his relationship with Ned. They are committed to monogamy. Since Heath has been cheated on before, I’m absolutely NOT blindsiding him by confessing my crush on him. Heathcliff needs to be happy in his intimate relationship for as long as it lasts, and right now monogamy is a precondition.

Heath has been internally conflicted with his job for years, but this conflict is reaching some kind of peak it seems. On balance, this is probably a good thing. He hates the system he is in, he’s been offered much better money and lifestyle outside his country, but he has one more step in the ladder and he feels conflicted about leaving his home, which I get. So he’s decided that he will chase that last step on the career ladder, come hell or high water, because he has sacrificed so much already and it is the position that will actually allow him to finally make some systemic changes. His field is very hierarchical and especially so in his country.

I did gently suggest to him to at least have a timeline so that he doesn’t lose the last vestiges of his humanity in pursuing this. He’s thinking about that.

Importantly, I asked him, whether that step is so significant to him, that he would be prepared to sacrifice his current (almost 3 year) relationship in the process. He didn’t bat an eyelid and said that yes he would. I did tell him that it was sad. Meanwhile I thought to myself that supporting him at distance through another break up would be incredibly tough if this crush of mine doesn’t burn out. Last time was bad enough and I wasn’t crushing on him then!

The risk of the relationship breaking down
is incredibly high, as, like most men I know, there are communication issues. Most disappointingly, the boyfriend doesn’t seem to trust Heath or at the very least, doesn’t understand that Heath can’t just answer the phone whenever, etc. This misunderstanding is very common unless you’ve lived with someone who works in a high intensity profession for a long time. Pretty much every relationship Heathcliff had, broke down on this (or cheating, which was also blamed on Heath being at work too much).

It’s his life - his choices and I will support whatever he feels is the right thing to do. Strangely enough, I completely understand why this career step is so important to him. What worries me is that it has morphed from personal achievement into some kind of vendetta against a cruel system that he has sacrificed so much for already that he feels to give up now would be to betray all this sacrifice. When we spend a few days together, it takes him some time before the slightly aloof veneer drops and I get to see the Heathcliff I know. Over the years, that time for the veneer to drop with me has taken longer and longer - it now takes a day or more. It’s a self-preservation thing for him but it’s also a sign (to me, anyway) that in order to survive all this, he’s relying more and more on behaviours from the psychopathic end of spectrum (we all have some) and this can be problematic both for him mentally as well as for any relationship, independent of the actual demands of the job.

This reliance (on behaviours from psychopathic end of the spectrum), when you’re stressed, is a vaguely familiar state to me. I recall being absolutely ruthless around the time of some tougher assessments during post-graduate training. It takes something from you and I’m not sure you always get it back. He’s had this for a lot longer than me and sacrificed a lot more than me. I call it “loss off humanity”, because it’s honestly what it feels like. You get this sort of reptilian acuity in order to navigate all the obstacles constantly being thrown at you. If this loss of humanity is directly proportionate to the stress he’s under, the resultant behavioural changes will require rehabilitation for Heath.

So we talked a little bit about that - having a plan for afterwards to allow for that rehabilitation process to occur. Currently we are thinking to go somewhere exotic.

I got to acknowledge to myself and to Heath, that Edgar, despite all his faults, has given me phenomenal freedom and safe space. Heath pointed out that that’s quite unusual for men. There is more intransigence and less trust. I guess I have been lucky.

Fabulous evening in short! I had a work meeting in another time zone so Heath dropped off to sleep while I was doing that. So despite our bed-sharing arrangement at Heath’s place (Ned and Edgar are aware, they are ok with that), we didn’t get our dose of evening hugs. But we made up for it in the morning

And then we had to say good bye in the morning as we went separate ways for another year and I’m really missing those arms already

Gawd it’s so hard not to fess up. But I made it with friendship intact - yay!

 

[dingedheart]

Hi Cathy and welcome to the forum. Sorry the timing didn’t work out for that critical conversation.

Just a couple points or thoughts on the situation. I know it’s difficult and you’re weighing all the factors going on in his life and also weighing possible rejection and relationship damage while thats kind and considerate and shows loads of judgment it also robs him of choice. IMO life is too short. We’ve all heard stories or have stories of someone coming up to you 20-30 yrs after the fact telling you they had such a crush on you but you were completely unaware. Immediately think fuck had I known that I would have explored that opportunity.

The other thought or comment on your situation is how much have you and Edgar read or researched of just how much of a transition you’re in for ? Theoretical ENM or hypothetical poly is quite easy it’s once you get in the trench and get your hands dirty things get complicated real fast. What’s the plan with telling the kids ? If the plan is not to tell them
the odds of them figuring it out and then looking and finding confirmation is really high.
Mags brought up an interesting point of NRE/ new libido management. She suggests fantasizing about a lover is only a problem if it’s a means of getting through the encounter with your husband. I’d say there’s a good many poly newbie husbands that have come here that have picked up the vibe that they’re being used as a stunt penis / human dildo for the new bf. I wouldn’t call it cheating but undisclosed I wouldn’t call it honest either. And at the end of the day would you be ok with Edgar or heath doing that to you?

 

[Magdlyn]

Mags brought up an interesting point of NRE/new libido management. She suggests fantasizing about a lover is only a problem if it’s a means of getting through the encounter with your husband. I’d say there’s a good many poly newbie husbands that have come here that have picked up the vibe that they’re being used as a stunt penis/human dildo for the new bf.

And you know what? Some husbands found that to be a bonus, while others found it to be a negative.

In Cathy's case, her libido has increased just because she's got a crush. Anyone can get a crush and have it spark their libido, male or female, poly or mono, vanilla or kinky, straight or gay. Should we all suppress our libidos with our nesting partners/spouses if something other than them sparks us? What if getting a new fantastic job makes us feel better about ourselves, raises our self-esteem and raises our libido? Is it ok then to have more sex? What if a new dress or hair color or pair of shoes gets us a compliment from someone at work, and that makes us feel good and pretty and gives us a tingle? Is it OK to "take it out on the hubs" in that case? Or is that "cheating"? What if watching porn together as a couple is stimulating? Is that a terrible crutch and somehow also bad?

Do we draw the line somewhere? Is the line the same for everyone? Some couples say, "You can read the menu with others (i.e., flirt) but come home for the actual meal." Is that OK?

I wouldn’t call it cheating, but undisclosed, I wouldn’t call it honest, either.

So you think it's "dishonest" to ever be turned on by anyone other than your spouse. I guess you're talking about being strictly monogamous to the point where you've trained yourself to never look at anyone other than your spouse. Now, if you're mono, going out and seeking stimulation from others could be considered cheating, like getting a lap dance, or using a webcam girl. Some people even think looking at porn is cheating. But what if the stimulation happens by accident (as it often does)? You happen to read an ordinary mainstream book or see a movie with a scene you find stimulating. Do you have to "confess" to your spouse that's why you're in the mood tonight, in your opinion?

And at the end of the day, would you be ok with Edgar or Heath doing that to you?

With all that testosterone floating around in the bloodstreams, the average guy thinks about sex 19 times a day. Even women think about it 10 times a day. I guess this means when people are awake. Lots of people have sex dreams too. Are people only allowed to think about their official partner when sex crosses their mind? What if you have a sex dream about fucking Cinderella and wake up horny? Should you not initiate sex with your wife because that's somehow using her as a stunt vagina? Or do you have to confess: "Honey, I just had a sex dream about a fairy tale character and it turned me on. Could we please have sex, baby?"

I'm not attacking your opinion, I promise. Being non-binary, I tend to react more strongly to the testosterone in my body than the average woman does. Do I have to tell my bf about every sex thought I have that doesn't involve him before we have sex, just in case I had a thought about a book character? If my mind wanders to my gf while having sex with my bf, I guess, according to you, I need to tell him so. Is that really kind, though? Can I just keep some thoughts to myself? Is there a thought police? Are mere thoughts "sinful"?

 

[CuriousCathy]

I know it’s difficult and you’re weighing all the factors going on in his life and also weighing possible rejection and relationship damage while that kind and considerate and shows loads of judgment it also robs him of choice.

Yeah, I thought about that. If I’m honest, we have spent twenty years tiptoe-ing around the edges. In terms of body language, our relationship has always been way more than platonic. Were we both robbing each other of choice because both of us were afraid of compromising the friendship? Quite possibly.

It’s only really in the last 5 years that the possibility of “this could actually work as an intimate thing” materialised in my head. Before that I was committed to monogamy with Edgar because I wasn’t aware anything else existed and an extremely busy life kept me sheltered. Ostensibly, I was not Heathcliff’s type, in terms of sexual attraction anyway!

Yes, life is far too short. Heath has visibly aged more than I have thanks to the all-encompassing job and its consequences. What terrifies me more than his rejection (although that in itself would be awful), is the real risk of adding to complexity in his life. Yes there is the possibility that he turns around and says “whew, I’ve been wondering about this for years” but I don’t actually know that. Suspicions are only that.

What makes me hesitate right now: he’s currently in a good space, he’s in the final hoop of a career progression and his current partner is insisting on monogamy - so I will be making him choose and none of the options are that great at the moment.

Also, Edgar is away. He knows things have changed but I haven’t had the chance of telling him re: lightbulb moment when I saw Heath. I’m more sure that Edgar will be ok with it than my suspicions re: Heathcliff being ok with it; however, I want to be 100% honest with Edgar about the specifics of the change. I have 6 weeks until he’s back. We have about 5-6 months before Heath goes again for that last promotion round and probably another 9-10 months until I see Heath (if my work goes to plan / I will know in about 2 months). I keep telling myself that in the context of 20 years, surely I can wait another year (albeit now patience is becoming teeth grindingly difficult)? Fingers crossed, nobody will have any life-altering events in the meantime. On the bright side, I have a year to figure out what to say to the kids if this all comes to pass how I’d like it to!

Clearly today I’m being sensible. Tomorrow is another day

One thing I have to say, writing here has been enormously helpful. Reading through everyone’s comments has given me a different perspective - thank you. This blog has become an outlet for my frustration

 

[dingedheart]

And you know what? Some husbands found that to be a bonus, while others found it to be a negative.

very true …I should have added that but I was focused on the thought of idea that there is “ only one “ negative situations. Very true and taken too the extreme the cucks and hot wife guys actually get turned on. So it comes a bonus for them.

In Cathy's case, her libido has increased just because she's got a crush. Anyone can get a crush and have it spark their libido, male or female, poly or mono, vanilla or kinky, straight or gay. Should we all suppress our libidos with our nesting partners/spouses if something other than them sparks us? What if getting a new fantastic job makes us feel better about ourselves, raises our self-esteem and raises our libido? Is it ok then to have more sex? What if a new dress or hair color or pair of shoes gets us a compliment from someone at work, and that makes us feel good and pretty and gives us a tingle? Is it OK to "take it out on the hubs" in that case? Or is that "cheating"? What if watching porn together as a couple is stimulating? Is that a terrible crutch and somehow also bad?

I don’t claim to know what sparks libidos but I’m pretty sure shoe buying isn’t one them my ex was a shoe aholic
BUT dont you think “ taking it out on hubs “ because you feel good or sexy because of a new purchase is completely different from being a standing for some LD lover? You mention watching porn together to get in the mood …how many women give their husband a fist full of money for a strip club or hand them a lap top to view porn so they can get laid later ?

Do we draw the line somewhere? Is the line the same for everyone? Some couples say, "You can read the menu with others (i.e., flirt) but come home for the actual meal." Is that OK?

I think each couple and or each person might have their own line…and they should discuss that.

So you think it's "dishonest" to ever be turned on by anyone other than your spouse. I guess you're talking about being strictly monogamous to the point where you've trained yourself to never look at anyone other than your spouse. Now, if you're mono, going out and seeking stimulation from others could be considered cheating, like getting a lap dance, or using a webcam girl. Some people even think looking at porn is cheating. But what if the stimulation happens by accident (as it often does)? You happen to read an ordinary mainstream book or see a movie with a scene you find stimulating. Do you have to "confess" to your spouse that's why you're in the mood tonight, in your opinion?

NO i didn’t say that. I’m suggesting that with the OP‘s history that a dramatic spike in libido and other one to one behaviors Edgar might feel like a stand in for the other guy. HEY if it’s all about getting a release and nobody cares other than the finish point have at it. It sounds like Edgar is going to remain mono at least at the start point so once this really gets going he’s going feel some demotion, displacement and intrusion…all normal in small doses. Could being used / taking it out on him to dump her NRE lust for heath add to demotion and displacement or lessen it ?

With all that testosterone floating around in the bloodstreams, the average guy thinks about sex 19 times a day. Even women think about it 10 times a day. I guess this means when people are awake. Lots of people have sex dreams too. Are people only allowed to think about their official partner when sex crosses their mind? What if you have a sex dream about fucking Cinderella and wake up horny? Should you not initiate sex with your wife because that's somehow using her as a stunt vagina? Or do you have to confess: "Honey, I just had a sex dream about a fairy tale character and it turned me on. Could we please have sex, baby?"

19 …is that all I thought it was way higher than that. I’m not arguing that people don’t have or shouldn’t have erotic thoughts or dreams. I think the specific difference AND POSSIBLE negative consequence is if the new found libido is attached to a real live person that they’re having a real romantic relationship with and not a fantasy or a stranger Or cartoon character.

I'm not attacking your opinion, I promise.

sure about that?

Being non-binary, I tend to react more strongly to the testosterone in my body than the average woman does. Do I have to tell my bf about every sex thought I have that doesn't involve him before we have sex, just in case I had a thought about a book character? If my mind wanders to my gf while having sex with my bf, I guess, according to you, I need to tell him so. Is that really kind, though? Can I just keep some thoughts to myself? Is there a thought police? Are mere thoughts "sinful"?

I think you should keep most of you thoughts to yourself …kidding . Thank god there’s not you’d be arrested

Joking aside …The person having such thoughts or feelings are the only ones that will know if overall it’s helping or hurting their various relationships. The situation that has been frequently described by some struggling mono members over the yrs is their NRE intoxicated wives or gf’s spending a good amount of time on a device get horny and want “ to take it out on them “ when That becomes the pattern or when wife is uninterested when he’s in the mood that’s when these guys have felt like its not about bonding as a couple but being used to get off.

AND I’m not suggesting to have a conversation or confession every time you want to have sex. i just saying you might want to have a broad general conversation on the topic to see where everyone stands.