Yet another Poly-Mono'ish question, help from the third, male

[manbat]

Hey yawll, its been a while since I felt the need to reach out for some advice lately, so here it is! I will start off with that I am the guy, I have a live in Primary partner "A" whom I have been with for seven years. We are very open and secure with each other living poly. We learned a lot through our trials, mistakes and successes through the years. We have it figured out to where we are content with accepting full separate dating with secondary partners, and possibly more if it went that way.

So, the issue and situation at hand... I started chatting via a kik poly group with a woman "B", and we essentially hit it off. She and her husband were fairly new to poly, and she informed me that her husband has a more swinger approach to openness, while she leans more poly because she values a deep connection and loving romantic feeling with someone she wants to be intimate with. She identifies as polyamorous.. This was inline with my values as well. She explained to me how her husband communicate about it, and it seemed safe for me to proceed with caution with the information I had. We took things very very slow. I went at her pace, and ended up being a very comfortable pace for the both of us and it worked out perfectly. What we developed over the past three months has been a very sweet, and bright nurturing connection. We took working into sexual relations very slowly as her husband was showing early signs of jealousy and wanted her to scale things back temporarily. This did send a small red flag to me, but I still made a decision to precede again with caution and good communication. "B" and I have seen each other 4 times since we started communicating, one visit was vanilla with all the four of us -my partner with husband all together. We both were at the beginnings of developing the first stages of love, and we both wanted each other physically and emotionally. Everything was going decently with mild push back from her husband, but totally manageable, until the last visit I had alone with her. We were officially fully intimate for the first time. Afterwards things went downhill for her husband. He started off asking for std testing which I immediately agreed to do (my primary partner and I get tested very regularly and I hadn't had a partner since she was last tested a few days prior) but none the less I agreed, not and issue for me. Then she told me he was having big issues, and the next day I was informed the he wanted to "re negotiate boundaries". I was a bit taken back by this, but I figured I just had to wait and see what happened. Next day I was told that the only way to proceed was if she can only be sexual with out emotion, or emotion without sex(intimacy, but no penetration or oral). These were his requests, and from the sounds of it, no plans to work on it for the foreseeable future, maybe???. I had for the first time in my poly life felt the feeling of being vetoed and overruled, and being the third wheel. I have to be honest, it is not a nice feeling. While knowing I need to respect the primary relationship and their family, it hurts pretty bad. I had contemplated leaving, but her and I talked a lot and decided to try and move forward under the choice option "2", emotions without sex, because we both really care about each other a lot. I am having a hard time feeling good about it, and I know there will always be a feeling that we lost half of what we had, and I dont want to push out of respect for her need to not hurt her husband. I have expressed my feelings and thoughts to her, but it makes her shut down, and I don't want to make it harder on her then it already is..

Now, before I ask my final question, I need to say, the the loss of a full sexual connection is difficult, but I can manage that, at least for now. I am hopeful maybe things will change of course. What is mainly the issue is feeling powerless, feeling vetoed with little to no hope for the future. My question now is, has anyone experienced this? I am in the mind set now of moving forward with adaptations, and I am even more caution then I have been before. I am not going to bail this quickly because its not in my nature to do so. Be gentle I am a sensitive lad. Thank you!

 

[River]

eeek! I find the prospect of reading a wall of text without any paragraph breaks ... daunting.

(edit: thanks for breaking up the wall just a little.)

 

[breathemusic]

If you're already having your relationship dictated and controlled by a third party this early on, and the shared partner isn't pushing back and setting her own boundaries, then the husband has no incentive to do any of his own emotional work. I wouldn't count on him relaxing his rules down the road. I'd run from this hot mess. This is a disaster waiting to happen because you already know that they don't want the same thing and aren't on the same page. And you already know that you and her want more but he's not ok with it. You're better off seeking partners who want what you want, and are willing to uphold their own boundaries around that.

 

[Evie]

I see you don't want to give up on this, but it sounds like you're in for a hard ride. I'm sorry your connection with B is not able to be fully explored.

You're already emotionally connected to her so sex without emotion is not a realistic option, as you've noted by choosing "option 2". So, if you're going to adhere to B's Hubby's rules (because that's what they are) then yeah, you're going to have to forge a sexless relationship.

Is that truly what you want? Or are you eventually going to break his rules because they are controlling behaviour? (Although breaking them is likely to create a huge drawn out mess). Or suffer the loss of being able to use sex to express your feelings?

Because I'm sure you know there is zero point banking on him changing his mind. He's clearly not on board with polyamory and is probably hurting every day, too, and trying to mitigate this with these rules. There are likely to be more rules until the only way she can not "cross his boundaries" is monogamy.

You're the experienced polyamorist, you saw the first red flag, now the second. So you're proceeding with caution. For how long? Because everyone is going to keep hurting until something drastically changes. (You're past significant change - you've already done that by shutting down your sexual relationship.)

And logistically, how will you manage a sexless relationship? Electronic and public communication only (until the strong desire to have sex with each other has eased off)? Sheer willpower (not recommended)?

Has hubby got any rules around sexting? No? Give it time, he probably hasn't thought of it yet!

I'm not saying your relationship with B is a dead loss, but it won't be a truly polyamorous one anytime soon.

(I've attempted to be with a person from a newly-open couple, and I've lived through a phase of being a newly-open couple. Their rules increased, ours reduced. You are already receiving indicators about which way B and her hubby will go.)

Evie

 

[kdt26417]

Hello manbat,

There isn't a lot you can do, B's husband has the control over the situation, and he does not want his wife to be poly. Right now the only thing you can do is accept what you have. Later on, he may tighten the rules even further, and then you'll have to accept that. I see that you don't want to break up with her; is there some point at which you would say, "Enough is enough?" What if the husband decides there will be no emotions period? What if he decides there will be no physical contact, not even a hug? As long as he is in the equation, this is the direction things may go. B is willing to do whatever he asks, so you don't have any say. I don't agree with the husband's actions, but I don't agree with B's actions either. I realize she is caught in the middle, but this is the role she signed up for. Somebody has to take a stand on reasonable boundaries.

I certainly sympathize with you, you are in a bad situation. I hope that things will take a turn for the better.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I am monogamish and I've had great experiences with poly and being with people in open relationships because they were already established in their agreements and had figured out pretty much what parameters would work for them. Every new relationship is an experiment since it's unique, but I did not feel like an experiment in someone else's relationship. I can't imagine that a poly situation would be pleasant if you're constantly teetering on the edge with a metamor who is not sure about what he can handle. Sounds like you're part of their marital relationship experiment, since they are not sure with each other about what kind of intimacies are welcome. Poly couples don't need to be long timers in order to practice good poly, and in fact they both don't even need to be poly, but they do need to be in agreement that poly in general is what they both want. If this couple is still trying to figure this out, then you're in an inherently unstable experimental situation and you'll feel it every step of the way.

 

[River]

Then she told me he was having big issues, and the next day I was informed the he wanted to "re negotiate boundaries". I was a bit taken back by this, but I figured I just had to wait and see what happened. Next day I was told that the only way to proceed was if she can only be sexual with out emotion, or emotion without sex (intimacy, but no penetration or oral).

That's the recipe for swinging, casual sex, hooking up... not polyamory. It's also a recipe for dividing whole people into two halves which don't have good communication between them, to put it mildly.

The entire point of polyamory, as fas as I am concerned, is to allow folks to actually bond and share affection, warmth, connection... and all that good stuff ... without fearing ... well, feelings.

So many people are trying to not have any cake and to eat it too. But that's not even the way most of us human beings ... well, are. For some of us, if we put a little cake in our mouth we are going to have those dreadful and forbidden feelings. Sigh.

 

[River]

If this couple is still trying to figure this out, then you're in an inherently unstable experimental situation and you'll feel it every step of the way.

F.A. has -- as usual -- a good point here. It's a point worth considering carefully.

Meanwhile, consider also my point, which is that human life itself is "an inherently unstable experimental situation and you'll feel it every step of the way."

That is, we're all capable of having extraordinary "a-ha!" moments at any time. Maybe the other dude in this scenario will have his, and will decide to REALLY open up. Or maybe he will not. Maybe he'll give her space to be and explore her WHOLE being; or maybe he will keep her in his tight embrace? Who knows!?!

I think love tends in the direction away from fear and clinging out of fear. Maybe that's why love is not so common as I would have thought. Fear, after all, is our collective default setting. It is not easy to move beyond.

 

[River]

.... She and her husband were fairly new to poly, and she informed me that her husband has a more swinger approach to openness, while she leans more poly because she values a deep connection and loving romantic feeling with someone she wants to be intimate with. She identifies as polyamorous..

But, clearly, he does not. He is at least a little afraid that if she is both sexually and emotionally intimate with another person that he will have less of the Whole Pie, which is love / happiness / fulfilment / etc.... This is how such folks tend basically to see things: either you have got half a pie, a whole pie, a third of a pie.... Never (they tend to imagine) can the pie be multiplied by giving it away -- in whole or in part.

Poly folk tend to think that if you give a whole pie "away," heck, now you have three pies.
Woops! Give more away and pretty soon the whole world is made of pie!

Now, of course, one cannot "give" a pie "away," because the "pie" has always belonged to itself -- so to speak. It's not property, in other words. Its' not even an "it". I hope you know what I mean.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry to hear this.

We took working into sexual relations very slowly as her husband was showing early signs of jealousy and wanted her to scale things back temporarily.

How long is "temporarily" and what was he supposed to be doing to process his jealousy appropriately? Did he actually do it?

I assume he is in a "swinging on his side, poly on her side" relationship model willingly and consensually. And you are her poly BF in this picture, also willingly and consensually. Nobody is being MADE to do this.

Afterwards things went downhill for her husband. He started off asking for std testing which I immediately agreed to do

Fair enough. But why not testing before becoming intimate?

Then she told me he was having big issues, and the next day I was informed the he wanted to "re negotiate boundaries".

Why is she telling you (him + her) stuff? Why is this your problem?

She's not able to tell her husband something like...

"I see that you are upset, but this is not a surprise. You know if we were doing swinging on your side and poly on mine that a poly BF of mine would eventually arrive at sharing sex/sharing love with me sooner or later. I've tried to accommodate you along the way. We went slow.

This new request? No. I will not be meeting it. I will use safer sex practices, and STD test periodically, but you are not in charge of my body and you are not in the (me + my BF) relationship. You don't get a vote inside that one and decide when we get to share love/share sex. Just like BF does not get a vote on (me + you) and gets to decide when you and I share love or share sex."

What do you need to feel more at ease? How can I reasonably and rationally help you?"​

Because him being in charge of how she shares love or shares sex is not reasonable. She has her own autonomy.

Next day I was told that the only way to proceed was if she can only be sexual with out emotion, or emotion without sex(intimacy, but no penetration or oral). These were his requests, and from the sounds of it, no plans to work on it for the foreseeable future, maybe???.

Those are his requests to HER. So what's her answer?

Did she say "Yes, I will agree to whatever you (husband) say, without considering how it affects me or my other partner?"

How do you feel about your GF doing that?

I had for the first time in my poly life felt the feeling of being vetoed and overruled, and being the third wheel. I have to be honest, it is not a nice feeling.

No, it is not a nice feeling. I'm sorry you are dealing with those feelings now.

I had contemplated leaving, but her and I talked a lot and decided to try and move forward under the choice option "2", emotions without sex, because we both really care about each other a lot.

That is your choice.

I would have opted to let it end and say "Look me up if/when you are both willing AND able. It sounds like this time you were jumping the gun. Willing to poly, but not actually ABLE. You thought both you and husband were ready. But it turns out both were not. I rather not get caught in that cross fire. I care about you a whole lot, but not even for you will I stay in things that hurt me. It hurts to be vetoed like this. I rather not participate like that -- where a third party controls what is happening in the (you + me) dynamic."

I am having a hard time feeling good about it, and I know there will always be a feeling that we lost half of what we had, and I dont want to push out of respect for her need to not hurt her husband. I have expressed my feelings and thoughts to her, but it makes her shut down, and I don't want to make it harder on her then it already is..

Which is why I would bow out. Then she has the space she needs to figure out what she wants to do without any pressure from your side. As well as you being out of the crossfire.

I need to say, the the loss of a full sexual connection is difficult, but I can manage that, at least for now. I am hopeful maybe things will change of course.

Why would they change?

Husband is getting his way. She isn't sharing sex with you or anyone else. So he doesn't have to work on his things to become more willing and able. He can shove all that under the rug.

Her? She's still got access to you so she doesn't have to work on being more able to tell her husband "no" and having him stay out of her other relationships. She can shove that under the rug.

I am in the mind set now of moving forward with adaptations, and I am even more caution then I have been before. I am not going to bail this quickly because its not in my nature to do so.

I guess you could try "wait and see" for now to see if they DO work on themselves. But put a reasonable time limit on it.

You might be willing to "wait and see" for X weeks or months, but not likely to stick around waiting for 20, 50 years, right? If there's no movement toward improvements... I'd say bow out sooner rather than later.

It's not fun to be someone else's "experimental relationship."

Galagirl

 

[vinsanity0]

They aren't going to work on themselves. Hubby is one step away from telling her she can't have an emotional connection either. Been there, doing that.

 

[manbat]

*Update

Thank you all for your insight. I had a feeling it was going this direction. It was good to hear some validation on my end.

I am not good at handling myself with the daunting feeling of love ending. I kept hurting and just couldn't get behind that kind of decision as being constructive. I decided to pull the plug on it with the option of working things out IF they ever can work on learning more about poly and make better decisions, because that was just not OK with me, and by the sounds of it, wouldn't be OK with most. I still feel uneasy and if I made the right decision, it was a really beautiful thing. But, now the grieving begins. I hate this part.

Anyways, thanks for your advise everyone!

 

[Jayla]

Sounds like you made a good decision just fulling breaking up. It doesn’t feel like it’s good now, but it will definitely be healthier for you in the long run. I went through something similar myself in your shoes.

My (now ex) BF Doug and his wife were swingers when I met him, but at the time he was wanting something more than sex with another person. I was freshly new to poly. After 6 weeks of dating his wife couldn’t deal with emotions being involved with sex and vetoed me as a romantic interest, but he told her and me he wanted to keep a friendship going. I was hurt, but ok with it. We remained friends and texted frequently keeping it platonic. 6 months later it seemed she worked through her insecurities and gave the green light for Doug and I to be romantic again, slowly. Fine, I could work with that. But over the course of the next 5 months she would have blowups at him about seeing me. Doug finally ended with me again, but wanted to keep the platonic thing going. I said no. Clean break. I was not going to be on her yo-yo. I haven’t spoken to Doug since that breakup 9 months ago, and I’m definitely good with that!! I don’t have to stress about crossing an invisible line, or her reactions anymore. I do miss Doug from time to time. But I’m much better off without that mess.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am not good at handling myself with the daunting feeling of love ending. I kept hurting and just couldn't get behind that kind of decision as being constructive

I don't think any break up, even wanted ones, are fun. They comes with its share of grieving/grief.

Yet live long enough, and get through enough grieving things... then facing a new grieving thing isn't so bad or hard. You've got experience, you KNOW yourself in grief and what self care things help you and what self care things don't...

Then it becomes so much easier when faced with those kinds of choices. Not all choices are "win - lose" kinds of choices. Some are "this choice stinks and that choice stinks." It gets easier to pick out the one that stinks less.

In that sense, I think hurting right now IS constructive. It is appropriate to hurt while grieving. Be weird to be all tap dancing smiles in mourning.

Yet it is through grief experiences that you learn HOW to better help your own self in/through a hard time. You learn HOW to recognize your emotions and respect your personal limitations. Thus lessening the burden of the next hard time. Like taking the "forest level view" of it.

I still feel uneasy and if I made the right decision, it was a really beautiful thing. But, now the grieving begins. I hate this part.

Time will let you know if it was the right decision. But in the present moment? Down here at "tree level" view? Yeah. It's a bummer. While I think it's good to step away from these folks right now, it does come with a price tag. So I'm very sorry you are grieving right now.

It's ok to hate it.

Galagirl