Wife thinks that I am neglecting her in favour of my secondary. She's right.

[KindaPOd]

I'm having a hard time feeling sympathetic to your situation, KindaPOd.

Makes sense. Not the most sympathetic situation to be in.

It sounds like you want to punish your wife for loving someone else for all these years, and reward your ex-girlfriend-now-primary-girlfriend for pining for you / loving only you for all these years.

Why don't you care about your wife's feeling? She loved both you and her boyfriend for many years, and tried to make it work with both of you. But you checked out as soon as you had your adoring ex-girlfriend back.

Probably a large element of truth in this interpretation.

I've never bought into the revenge angle. Can't remember if I made that clear earlier on in the thread. Not impossible that I'm just a vindictive asswipe. I just don't see it.

My gf moved on after our first breakup. If anything, there was a part of me that couldn't let go of her. I think it was guilt. You can do some stupid things when you're younger... and when you are older, too. Guess I wanted to make amends.

I care enough about my wife's feelings that I don't want to lead her on.

Not fully checked out of my marriage, but I actually don't know if I would've started a relationship with my gf had our marriage not gotten into the shape it did.

Not trying to hurt her, just doesn't really care if it happens as a consequence of this dynamic that she created.

That's not entirely true. Not hard to figure out that my wife is putting herself through the wringer for me. Don't really know how I can stop her at this point.

If you've ever been in a situation where your SO(s) were more into you than you were into them, it's not that great.

 

[dingedheart]

Not entirely true, which part. So you do care, sorta. You just don't know how to help her see your new (old) position.

Have any life changes occurred (outside of your actions) that may have brought about this concern for her? Like a death, family member's divorce, daughter getting older, planning to leave the nest, stuff like that?

 

[KindaPOd]

Has anything life changes occurred (outside of your actions) that may have brought about this concern for her? Like a death, family member's divorce, daughter getting older, planning to leave the nest, stuff like that?

Nothing special. She's my wife. She's a person.

Basic consideration for another human being's feelings, probably.

General trend is that I'm doing this out of revenge. That's what everybody here thinks. Going to look into it.

 

[Vixtoria]

If it helps, I don't think you are being vindictive. As the poly person who got into an emotional affair first, I get that it feels embarrassing and/or belittling to admit to lying or cheating. The wish to just clean-slate it and move on from where you are. However, I also know DH could not move on until I admitted to and showed genuine remorse for the lying. Without the truth having been told for years, there's no solid foundation to build on. In one of our communication books we use it talks about how if you don't work on things, communicate, you end up with the four Rs-- Resistance, Resentment, Rejection, Repression. The book was clear on that these are the steps to the death of a relationship.

Basically, waiting for the truth, not sure if she has cheated or not, and not getting the conversation to finally clear things and really be able to work through them, and THEN try and move on. I think you've just gone through all four stages.

First there's space-- you start Resisting what the other person is saying and doing. You start pulling away. Then you start Resenting things. Blaming and disliking things they are doing. You haven't gotten what you feel is the truth, so you start resenting the 'truth' she does give you. Not able to trust it. The little voice in your head almost rolling it's eyes at things. Then there's Rejection. You don't really want time with her, don't want to discuss it, don't want to be emotionally connected. It's too hard. Actually, maybe that's the stage you are at... though it feels like you are at Repression, where you just get to a state of emotional numbness.

We took trips into these four Rs ourselves during our marriage, but the book helped, even if it hurt as well to go over things you had emotionally numbed yourself to. You had to reopen wounds.

Honestly, if your wife really wants things to get back to you two being primaries for each other, she may want to look into opening those wounds and admitting things, talking them out and actually caring about the hurt you felt. Right now, you might seem numb about it, but that's probably you just covering it up because feeling hurt all the time was too hard. So it's heal or repress it. You've been repressing. She wants better; she needs to help with the healing.

That's what I get when I read this thread, anyway.

 

[KindaPOd]

If it helps, I don't think you are being vindictive.

Oh good. Thought it was just me, and dingedheart.

Resistance, Resentment, Rejection, Repression.

Pretty accurate way of putting it. Do you remember the name of the book?

Honestly, if your wife really wants things to get back to you two being primaries for each other, she may want to look into opening those wounds and admitting things, talking them out and actually caring about the hurt you felt.

Doubt that is going to happen. It's been over a decade. Besides, even if she did admit it, the fact that it took over a decade to happen sorta minimises the sincerity of a confession. What the hell would I even say?

"Thanks for finally doing what you should have done immediately after you began your affair. Maybe we should have discussed non-monogamy before you did anything."

On the plus side, I'd finally know that I wasn't crazy.

I'm also running along with the assumption that she did have an affair. If she didn't, and she is speaking the truth, just says that I don't trust her as much as she deserves to be trusted.

But like I said way back on page 1, I've put it behind me. Or maybe I've "repressed" it. I've seen what holding onto pain can do to a man. Not pretty.

 

[Vixtoria]

The book is What You Feel, You Can Heal. I've been given a lot of book titles to deal with other issues, including hereditary, and they are dry or hard to read. This one is good. It makes simple points, then expounds on them.

I'll admit to reading the beginning and feeling a tad pouty when I would see myself in scenarios that weren't handled the best. However, you get past that, and then find ways to do things better, if only to stop and rethink your reaction.

 

[dingedheart]

When anyone talks about a primary being replaced, or moved to a lower status, that's blasphemy, which is a little funny, because a good majority don't believe in such terms, or hierarchy, but indirectly function that way.

I'd think if it were revenge or payback, you'd be able to see that quite clearly, unless you've been doing it so long it's just a habit, or something.

During your counseling, didn't they touch on the 4 R's?
Wasn't the topic of her possible cheating thoroughly discussed?
What did you mean by "basic concern for another human being's feelings"? Are you talking about yourself or her? I was talking about her "new" motivation to fix this.

 

[IndieSolo]

You keep saying in this thread that you're "over it" regarding your suspicions that Kate was having an affair before you two officially opened your marriage -- but if you really were over it, why would you have mentioned it so much? In giving us background, you would've simply said, "we opened up our marriage eleven years ago... blablabla," and not even mention your old doubts.

I had a very wise teacher a long time ago who used to say, "The degree to which you succeed and have satisfaction in life is directly proportionate to the amount of resentments you carry." I don't think you have let go of your resentment toward Kate about wanting a polyamorous relationship and you are still attached to the idea that she cheated. I get the sense that you are stubborn and proud, and that somewhere in you, there is a feeling that your idea of manhood, being a good husband and provider, and the very meaning of marriage to you, has been "under attack" or eroded by her wanting poly. You say that you have "neglected" your wife and wanted some sort of affirmation that doing so is justified. In all of your posts about your wife, there is a very clear expression of anger and bitterness toward her.

Your pain comes through loud and clear in all your anger and frustration. It seems to me that you are supremely disappointed in her and how your marriage turned out, and how you feel about yourself as a man because of it, and I wonder if you have looked at this in any kind of therapeutic setting -- because I think it will continue to eat at you and prevent you from feeling happy and satisfied until it is addressed.

Maybe you and Kate are finished and ready to move on. Maybe you can turn it around and embrace poly with forgiveness (for her and yourself) and generosity of spirit, and not hurt anymore. I think that, with lots of self-examination and a real willingness to feel vulnerable, you can do the inner work necessary to arrive at a place where you feel relief and being at peace with yourself, where you are no longer angry at her, and even a place where you can re-write your ideas of what marriage is "supposed to be" and be happy with that. Whether the two of you stay together or not. I wish you well in this effort, if you are brave enough to go there.

 

[dingedheart]

To be fair, others keep bringing that up, myself included, and now vix.

NYCindie, what part did you read that gave you that insight on his feeling of providing and manhood-related things? Would you please quote those so I could learn?

 

[Vinccenzo]

What I keep getting out of the OP's posts is the sense of revenge, as well. Kate hurt him by wanting another love in her life, despite still wanting him. That request made her capable of anything, in his mind, including cheating before asking to become poly.

Instead of saying no, or choosing to leave the marriage for the disparity of values, he has stayed till he found someone to move on with. Ready with the unprovable suspicions of cheating to absolve motivations. This allows him to "do it back to her" before leaving. So not poly like her in any sense other than throwing Kate the occasional bone. His mind is still mono. Julie is the ready replacement when he goes. But he has to make sure Kate feels as he did, replaced, before he goes. He has to make sure both Kate and Adam know he is replacing her.

Of course, I'm guessing here. But I doubt this is what Kate was asking to happen in being poly. So that suggestion of this being the result of what she asked for doesn't seem to hold water. This isn't the natural result of anything. If this wasn't the result he wants to have happen and simply how it all played out, why the request that Kate become the secondary to Julie? Seems a bit more stringent that just wanting to do away with the labels.

 

[opalescent]

KoP (see what I did there?),

The 'did she, didn't she' of if Kate had an affair or not appears to be a weight on you. Secrets and uncertainty are often like invisible chains wrapped around us. I realize that it's been some time since the possible affair, but our emotions, pain and anxiety, if not dealt with, can go underground and fester in the psyche.

Ask Kate to talk fully and truthfully with you about the past. Get a counselor to help if this is hard, as I expect it will be. Knowing what happened, if anything, and why, may make you 'lighter'. You may not be able to repair your relationship with her, and you may not want to. And that's ok. But putting the past truly behind both of you may have the effect of easing dealing with each other.

 

[redpepper]

The book is What You Feel, You Can Heal. I've been given a lot of book titles to deal with other issues, including hereditary, and they are dry and some hard to read and be helpful. This one is good. It makes simple points, then expounds on them. I'll admit to reading the beginning and feeling a tad pouty when I would see myself in scenarios that weren't handled the best. However, you get past that and then find ways to do things better. If only to stop and rethink your reaction.

More books! Please add it to the "book and link recommendation" sticky. Thanks. It could be useful for those in similar situations.

 

[KindaPOd]

I'd think if it were revenge or payback you'd be able to see that quite clearly, unless you've been doing it so long it's just a habit, or something.

During your counseling didn't they touch on the 4 R's? Wasn't the topic of her possible cheating thoroughly discussed?

What did you mean by, "basic concern for another human being's feelings"? Are you talking about yourself or her? I was talking about her "new" motivation to fix this.

I'm worried about that, acting out in revenge, but not seeing it. How many people damage the lives of everybody surrounding them without realising it? Plenty.

In counseling we did discuss cheating. She said that she didn't do it. I was split 50/50 on the issue. Can't prove it, can't deny it. Only thing left to do was accept that you can't always know everything.

The four Rs were not brought up.

"Basic concern for another human being" refers to my actions towards her. If I'm going to act like a dick, I can at least be a considerate dick.

Why do I think that she is suddenly so motivated? I think that she doesn't like the shift in the status quo.

Ask your wife to talk fully and truthfully with you about the past.

Already did. Years ago.

Fact is, if I continue to worry about this, I'd only be chasing after a shadow. Maybe I always was. You can't "win" them all.

 

[KindaPOd]

You keep saying in this thread that you're "over it" regarding your suspicions that your wife was having an affair before you two officially opened your marriage -- but if you really were over it, why would you have mentioned it so much? In giving us background, you would've simply said, "we opened up our marriage eleven years ago... blablabla," and not even mention your old doubts.

I think that I mentioned it once in the OP. It was relevant when we first started polyamory. I mean, it's a pretty ugly way to start things off.

The big theory here is that I'm doing this out of revenge because of Kate's affair, so I'm going to keep on bringing it up. If I don't, everyone will say "Why are you avoiding this issue?"

I had a very wise teacher a long time ago who used to say, "The degree to which you succeed and have satisfaction in life is directly proportionate to the amount of resentments you carry."

Gotta say I'm genuinely impressed that you managed to get all of that out of around 20 posts.

What did your wise teacher teach?

Am I stubborn? Definitely. Proud? Dunno. Probably. Threatened manhood? Nah, I never bought into that macho manly man stuff. Leave it to the sea monkeys to fight over their females.

Don't remember asking for affirmation. Just asked if I was a bad person or not. Not being a bad person doesn't necessarily make me a good person.

Believe it or not, I am just incredibly cynical. Hard to be a cynic these days without people calling you angry and bitter.

I was definitely disappointed with how my marriage turned out when I was younger. I can accept relationships ending, but it's still hard to see a relationship go south like that. Around 6-7 years ago, I just accepted that the reality of my situation wasn't so hot.

I'd be disappointed in Kate if she were lying to me all this time. I'd be disappointed in myself if I were just chasing shadows. Scratch that, whether or not she was actually cheating on me at the time, I was chasing shadows.

I think that, with lots of self-examination and a real willingness to feel vulnerable, you can do the inner work necessary to arrive at a place where you feel relief and being at peace with yourself, where you are no longer angry at her, and even a place where you can re-write your ideas of what marriage is "supposed to be" and be happy with that.

Already did that years ago. That's when I reached the "weary" stage. But I guess I could reopen the floodgates.

 

[dingedheart]

Vinncenzo, unfortunately, it is the unintended consequence of her having another partner. This happens all the time, especially here. One partner wants/needs other partners, and thus the marriage ends. A couple agrees to swing and makes the agreement of no emotional affairs. Oops, someone falls in love, runs off with the new partner.

He was never on board, didn't like it for 6-7 yrs, expressed it, plainly stated that by Kate doing so. she risked his connection to her. She weighed the consequences, and to be true to herself and her nature, she continued. Hard to say what her response was in the first 7 yrs, but now her image of the relationship she wanted is slipping away fast.

KindaPOed, my impression is that under the new dynamic, long heart-to-heart conversations really don't happen, or rather, you were not interested in having them. Water under the bridge-type deal.

Have you flatly told Kate you have more attraction and love for Julie, and the reasons for that?
Does Kate know about this website?
Did she visit and read this thread?
Does she think you're a vindictive prick (specifically about this topic )?

 

[Vinccenzo]

Vinncenzo, unfortunately, it is the unintended consequence of her having another partner. This happens all the time, especially here. One partner wants/needs other partners and thus the marriage ends. A couple agrees to swing and makes the agreement of no emotional affairs. Oops, someone falls in love, runs off with the new partner.

He was never on board, didn't like it for 6-7 yrs, expressed it, plainly stated that by doing so, she risked his connection to her. She weighed the consequences, and to be true to herself and her nature, she continued. Hard to say what her response was in the first 7 yrs, but now her image of the relationship she wanted is slipping away fast.

KindaPOed, my impression is that under the new dynamic, long heart-to-heart conversations really don't happen, or rather, you were not interested in having them. Water under the bridge-type deal.

Have you flatly told Kate you have more attraction and love for your Julie and the reasons for that?
Does Kate know about this website?
Did she visit and read this thread?
Does she think you're a vindictive prick (specifically about this topic)?

I think it's easier to see this outside of the romantic-association context. It's a trick I use on myself to check my own actions for subconscious motivations when I feel challenged in my own relationships. Much of what builds resentments in romantic associations is due to our socialized view of caring for someone we are intimate with, and what they should or shouldn't do to show they care for us. We judge the people we claim we love most much more harshly than we tend to do with close friends. When we do to our friends what is more typical in romantic associations, it becomes more noticeable, even to ourselves.

We've all experienced the drifting apart of close friendships when we were growing up. A natural occurrence; circumstances make what used to be a strong connection weaken, and new ones get built. At what point is it natural when it is happening to announce to the friend who built a new association and their new friend that they should now be best friends instead of the original two? Especially when it was previously discussed that this is a possible outcome? When you want to wound them. Otherwise, it just happens quietly over time.

I watched my brother do this very thing when his best friend got chummy with another kid he took French lessons with. My brother spoke not a lick and began to suspect that when his BFF and the new friend would speak French in front of him that they were talking about him. Maybe they were and maybe they were not; it was never provable. That suspicion was what ended up killing the friendship before time could do it naturally. My brother began to act out to the BFF, causing the BFF to ask my brother why he was acting the way he was. Eventually, my brother announced to them both that they should be best friends now, because he was going to be best friends with someone he played hockey with. Very unnecessarily dramatic. They've long since stopped any contact at all.

I too have old friends I grew apart from over time, after a very close association, one of whom did behave like it was intentional-- their new friendship with someone else. KOP's words remind me very much of that dynamic. Others that I've drifted away from, or them from me, the dynamics were usually lacking, so those friendships faded without resentments or announcements to anyone who should or shouldn't be closest to whom, because it happened naturally.

Really, I'm not weighing in to make KOP feel bad about himself in this, but to caution how far this can go into ugliness, if he lets it. And I have no idea how all this is playing out in their home. None of us know if Kate is an emotional wreck trying to hold this together, or if he is only answering her concerns as she pushes him to tell her what's what. Just that he mentions staying with his wife for the child he has with her. That can be noble IF it is indeed to ensure the well-being of the child, and not to make the child stand witness to payback tactics. As he said, the kid isn't stupid. So, "staying for the child" can become pointless if it turns home life into a vindictive minefield. Staying with mum for the kid means staying with mum, not just residing in the same home. It means being there for mum when she needs him to be, because it's the example he wants his daughter to accept as a standard for her own relationships as an adult.

 

[KindaPOd]

My impression is that under the new dynamic long heart to heart conversations really don't happen ...or rather you not interested in having them...water under the bridge type thing.

Have you flatly told Kate you have more attraction and love for Julie and the reasons for that ?

Does she know about this website? Did she visit and read this thread?

Does she think you're a vindictive prick (specifically about this topic)?

Remember how I said on page 1 or 2 that we had long discussions about where things were going? Those were the heart-to-heart conversations. I'm always up for a chat if my wife has something to say.

Yes.

Yes and yes.

No. Or if she does think I am a vindictive prick, she wouldn't say anything. She's playing the role of super-wife at the moment. Calling me names isn't the smartest way to get what she wants.

Really, I'm not weighing in to make KOP feel bad about himself in this, but to caution how far this can go into ugliness if he lets it. And I have no idea how all this is playing out in their home. None of us know if Kate is an emotional wreck trying to hold this together, or if he is only answering her concerns as she pushes him to tell her what's what. Just that he mentions staying with his wife for the child he has with her. That can be noble IF it is indeed to ensure the well-being of the child and not to make the child stand witness to payback tactics. As he said, the kid isn't stupid. So staying for the child can become pointless if it turns home life into a vindictive minefield. Staying with mum for the kid means staying with mum. and not just residing in the same home. It means being there for mum when she needs him to be. because it's the example he wants daughter to accept as a standard for her own relationships as an adult.

I agree. One lesson that I hope my daughter learns is "don't be as poor as Mummy and Daddy."

 

[dingedheart]

Sorry, I forgot that.

Does your wife have a username and any threads of her own, either about her relationship with you or her bf?

What does she think of this thread so far?

Or rather, what do you think of the thread so far, Mrs Kpd?

 

[KindaPOd]

Does your wife have a username and any threads of her own either about her relationship with you or her bf in the archive ?

What does she think of this thread so far?

She says that she has never created any accounts or threads here.

Guess we could share this account. We aren't breaking any rules by doing that, right?

I'll quote her response to your second question.

"Interesting."

She had a big grin on her face when she said that.

 

[Magdlyn]

She says that she has never created any accounts or threads here.

Guess we could share this account. We aren't breaking any rules by doing that, right?

Not breaking a rule, per se, but most of us find it confusing when a married couple shares an account, unless each partner begins each post by stating who they are.