Poly/mono advice wanted: about not feeling "enough"

You don't have to end your entire relationship with her. You can still love her and spend time with her.

What I am saying is that you could become more willing to change the relationship shape to "friendship." A relationship shape that is a more accurate reflection of what you share TODAY regardless of what it was in the past.

Could end the relationship shape called "spouses/lovers." Then it no longer applies to Signal. She is free of any poly pressure or having to worry and be suspicious of your intentions toward her because you seem "a bit too happy and aroused."

And you can be free to date others (when you are ready to date). And have lovers who do "feel deserving." And if you want to over time... have a spouse who does "feel deserving."

Like if today you are "spouses + lovers + friends?" Several layers of relationships with Signal? Maybe "friends" is a better fit. Remove the spouse/lover layers.

Galagirl
 
For us I can't imagine ever being "not lovers." The truth is that we love each other dearly--I know she loves me from her words and actions. I know I love her, although perhaps she does not always feel that way. Neither of us has any desire to stop loving each other.

Sometimes I realize that there are levels where she realizes I do love her. Last night she said "I'm afraid you'll stop loving me" if I started dating someone else...I suppose you have to be loving someone to stop. I guess that's...progress?

I do feel a bit disheartened when I think about her feeling undeserving. I'm happy being in love with her, but when she is vocal about being "not enough" I feel less happy. Does that mean it's time to cut the rope? I've been able to cut the rope from other situations recently where I've been unhappy (or worse), so I'm not adverse to getting out of a bad situation. This doesn't feel like a bad situation. More like an non-ideal situation, where most of what we have is good but there are a few lurking unresolved issues, some of which might be resolved but others which might be intractable. If it was like the relationship between The Signal and her ex, where everything had broken down and there was no love to speak of any more, the way forward would be clear. But there is a lot of love in our relationship, and a lot of friendship and respect and warmth.

And to be honest I just don't want to leave her. I want to work with her as long as I can. That might mean me giving up part of my identity. But I guess that is part of the calculus we make when we are trying to decide what is best for our lives.
 
I literally spent hours describing all of his great qualities and all of the ways we all love him. It didn't help. At all.
I occasionally have deep depressions like that. As I've told the people closest to me, "I feel like I'm radioactive; I don't want to be close to those I care most about."

However, it wasn't a down-at-the-mouth "blue funk," & certainly NOT destructive. I needed time to process something -- whether some big disaster or just an accumulated pile of minor crap that had shifted -- & needed to shake up my happy routine(s) in order to add perspective. I'd drive out of the city or take myself to a new restaurant or try a New Age therapy or pick up a new instrument or just stay home for a few days & watch TV with my cat.

There's nothing wrong with being Eeyore. :p But Eeyore was the same whether alone or surrounded by friends. A few years back, I reread the chapter about Eeyore's birthday, & I cried a little & laughed a lot. :) I can't vouch for 'em, but some quotes:
Could be worse. Not sure how, but it could be.
A little consideration, a little thought for others makes all the difference.
Weeds are flowers too, once you get to know them.
It's snowing still. ... And freezing. ... However, we haven't had an earthquake lately.
I was just sittin' here, enjoyin' the company. Plants got a lot to say, if you take the time to listen.
and perhaps most pertinent:
If the person you are talking to doesn't appear to be listening, be patient.
It never hurts to keep looking for sunshine.


OnceAndFuture: reading this thread, I choose to believe that you are being as honest & forthright as you know how, & that your description of The Signal is more-or-less accurate, & that The Signal is being as honest & forthright as she knows how.

You can stay, or you can go. It's that simple. Choose one.

Either way, you can close the door for good, or leave it open in case things change. It's that simple. Choose one.

Stop worrying about your dyad's "legacy" -- you have been in love, & it was good, & journeys tend to end, somehow, eventually. To be blunt: DON'T WHINE.

Under ideal circumstances, I still doubt that polyamory would ever suit many (much less most) people. The same can be said about monogamy or any other relational variant. There's no shame in that, & blame is a waste of IQ points.

In sum, be grateful for what you've had, & stop punishing everyone by walking both sides of the fence.
 
I do feel a bit disheartened when I think about her feeling undeserving. I'm happy being in love with her, but when she is vocal about being "not enough" I feel less happy. Does that mean it's time to cut the rope?
...
And to be honest I just don't want to leave her. I want to work with her as long as I can. That might mean me giving up part of my identity. But I guess that is part of the calculus we make when we are trying to decide what is best for our lives.
I have an idea reading this (no real experience though).
Is it possible to "cut the rope" in the sense of stop being a helper with this issue without leaving the relationship?

You could stop offering her support in those times, because it leads nowhere. Then she has to deal with her issue -- and that will be hard to do and hard to watch, but more likely to succed.
Or, you could do it gradually, if she is willing to cooperate. Just ask her to sit with the yucky feeling a little longer. If she starts talking about it, wait before you offer support. Or remind her to look at the feeling first. Perhaps she can gradually increas awareness that way.
Does that sound possible?

Or, maybe there are other ways to go about this. How about paradox intention. There is a meditation (from Osho I think) which consists of focusing on the negative (all the depressive, hurt and angry thoughts you have) for a definite period of time. (And then you swich to the positive for a few minutes.) What happens is, that by deliberatelly focusing on the negative, there starts to be a distance from it, perhaps a little voice that tells you "come on, it's actually all good". But perhaps that's only usefull her selfwork.
In a similar effect perhaps if she comes with the complaint, you could say "your actually right, you are not loveable at all" - there may be resistence against your statement comming up, which shows that there's a part of her which doesn't believe in that. Or if that's too cruel, make it sarcasm. Sarcasm is sometimes great medicine as well.

I'm no therapist, you may want to ask one. But I think zero progress could be due to applying the same method (reassurance) over and over, although it doesn't work. Try something new, anything. I think there is plenty of methods, it's just hard to think of one if you are used to your ways.
 
If it were me? I guess I don't see where "friendship" blocks me from having any of these:

  • we love each other dearly
  • neither of us has any desire to stop loving each other.
  • I don't want to leave her.
  • I want to work with her as long as I can.

I can still have those as her friend if both of us are willing.

The things that can be resolved? Can still be resolved.

The things that are intractable? Don't need to apply any more if we were friends rather than spouses/lovers + friends.

If it was like the relationship between The Signal and her ex, where everything had broken down and there was no love to speak of any more, the way forward would be clear. But there is a lot of love in our relationship, and a lot of friendship and respect and warmth.

And because I want to KEEP that friendship and respect and warmth? I would end the spouse/lover thing so we CAN keep the friend part. And not run it ALL into the ground like she and her ex did.

That might mean me giving up part of my identity. But I guess that is part of the calculus we make when we are trying to decide what is best for our lives.

That I will not do. I would not choose to give up my identity and subsume myself to a relationship. That's not healthy to me.

Galagirl
 
That I will not do. I would not choose to give up my identity and subsume myself to a relationship. That's not healthy to me.

I've been thinking a lot about this, both in the context of her feeling like "enough" and of me considering my identity.

As for my identity I realize now that while The Signal is still a bit uncomfortable with me being poly--I understand that. We've been together for 12 years and for only the last four months of that I've openly identified as poly. That's got to be a big change for her. I've read here that it sometimes takes over a year for someone to be comfortable with their partner being poly. I don't think she's too far out of schedule. A lot of women would have told me "go be poly somewhere else then." Granted we've been down this road once before. But I don't think her reaction to me is too far out of line.

We talked a bit last night about identity and behavior with regards to polyamory. I've talked with other poly folks who admit they don't feel "validated" unless they have multiple partners, and when they started identifying as poly they wanted to get out and find another partner ASAP. I admit myself that I've had those urges too, even though I don't feel particularly ready to act on them yet. What I said to The Signal was that I knew I could be with another partner and love her no less, because I'd loved The Star so intensely and yet grew to love her even more as a result. If that doesn't make me poly but "poly-capable," so be that. That feels more comfortable for me anyway right now, as it sidesteps the "inclination or behavior?" debate. And it means I don't feel like I have to validate myself with another partner. The Signal seems content with that description of my identity.

So maybe I don't have to hide my identity to continue to be with her. Down the road, we can renegotiate our boundaries--but for the first time, she now says she's willing to do that. I think she is appreciating my patience, even though that patience is coming from me not being ready to seek another partner.

About her feeling like "enough." As a result of this thread we've had so many conversations. This thread has really scared me. I've just felt so defensive, like "but I love her! I can't just leave someone I love and who loves me!" It feels a bit like tossing a coin to make a decision and before the coin lands you know what side you want it to land on: going through this discussion has made me understand what decision I wanted to make.

At the same time The Signal has come to realize that her low self-esteem was leading to a "one-sided relationship" as you so rightly put it. Especially after we were apart for so long, she started falling into more bad habits with feeling undeserving. We sat down this weekend and talked about what made us feel loved, and how we could accept each others' love language as a true statement of love. That really helped both of us. There are languages where we are more compatible, and this weekend we took advantage of that compatibility. I could feel her getting warmer to me. This morning she held me and said "I truly feel loved." Her feelings of being undeserving seem to be diminishing. I can't say she'd still feel that way if I were skipping back from a first date trying desperately to contain my NRE, but it does feel like progress. Progress most of all she deserves.

I can't say where things go from here, but it feels like a much less dark place now.
 
Glad you are seeing some progress.
 
I wasn't talking about “poly identity.” Like hiding it or something.

I meant I am not willing to subsume myself to a relationship. To the point where I become selfless. Losing my separateness, my individuality, not doing my self care because I'm so caught up in "my partner" or "the couple" and servicing all those things first instead.

That is not healthy or balanced to me. I do my self care FIRST, then I can gift my help other people with their reasonable, rational requests from a full tank of gas. If I'm always doing for others and neglect me? That's the path to me burning out. Self care is not optional. It is necessary.

I am concerned that you might be getting engulfed by her health issues to the point where you are neglecting your own self care. I am concerned you might be burning out.

Her neglecting herself + you neglecting yourself by doing too much/getting all caught up in her health issues = a healthy couple... HOW? :confused:

I see that you keep saying you guys love each other. I believe you.

It's just that (talking about how you love each other) is not (solving the unbalanced behaviors) here.

I am glad Signal is now able to see that she's been slipping into "one sided relationship" in her behaviors. I hope that means she is going to take some personal responsibility and get help with her (depression/low self esteem/X?) issues and bring those under management. Try some NEW behaviors and address her self care.

Not just empty talk like "I see that now." But actually moves on to making some changes. Like getting regular counseling appointments set up and going in to work with them. So over time she can enjoy a better quality of life and become a healthier partner for you to be relating with.

I hope that also means you will LET her do her jobs, even badly, while she's learning how to do them.

I hope you don't rush in to do her jobs for her. You do nobody any favors here by enabling her to skip doing her jobs.
  • She cannot learn the skills if you do it for her.
  • You continue on the "burning out" track if you keep on doing more than your fair share.

I think you could examine this:

This thread has really scared me. I've just felt so defensive, like "but I love her! I can't just leave someone I love and who loves me!"

What are you defending yourself from? :confused:

If you and Signal want to pull together? You both simply have to get on healthier footing. You have to stop overdoing, and she needs to step it up. Find better balance between you.

If pulling together is is not a shared goal? She's totally checked out? Or all talk and no action? Then you have to work on accepting that and make your next choices from there.

This has nothing to do with poly.

This has to do with the dynamics in this particular couple. Because poly or not poly? It sounds like a problem here.

I am glad it seems like a less dark place now. I hope she will take action and things DO improve.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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My ex husband had low self esteem. And he was raised in a Christian environment where that kind of attitude actually helped. He was taught: Jesus first, others second, oneself last.

So of course everyone else was more deserving of love and care than he was. He didn't get much love or care from others, because he over-extended to the point where he was seen as weak and slavelike. What he wanted most from others was respect, and appreciation for all he did. But since he didn't act like he was deserving of being cared for, or thanked, he never got "enough" respect/validation/gratitude. Then he got angry at the people he cared for. He often felt used. And then he'd get passive aggressive, bitter and sarcastic. He also got to the point that if people DID happen to show him love, respect or appreciation, he didn't even see it!

We did couples counseling. I spoke of the ways I showed my love for him. And just in the way I acted and reacted in therapy, over time our counselor could see how I loved and cared for this man. He just had such a firm idea that he sucked and no one appreciated him... he was completely unable to feel my love. In that time, I asked what he'd need to feel loved. He said, packed lunches, but not sandwiches. I provided that. It didn't work. I put cute lovey stickers on his Tupperware, even. I said, what else can I do? He said, more sex, much more sex. I provided daily sex, a good hour long session every day, for years. It didn't work. Finally I read the Surrendered Wife, and submitted, and let him "be a man" in the 1950s way, letting him make household maintenance decisions, decisions for dates and vacations, never offering advice if we were unsure of where we were going on the road (before GPS, that used to happen). Things like that. Nothing helped.

He could spend hours mining for the time I did this or that, which proved I didn't love or respect him. In our talks, he'd regularly go back years to focus on the time there was a thread hanging from the valance on the living room curtains... the fact I didn't cut the thread meant I didn't care about our relationship. Never mind I'd had 2 kids in 2 years and never really looked up from them to notice the hanging thread. (Never mind that he could have cut the thread when he noticed it, and never even mentioned it to the busy new mama. No, he clung to this "proof" for a couple decades.)

Another favorite was the time I'd accidentally made a cut in our new kitchen vinyl flooring. While dealing with the kids I hadn't noticed our portable dishwasher was losing a wheel, and in trying to roll it, I'd made a 3" cut in the vinyl, thinking I was just hitting a stray Lego ... which damage was immediately repaired by the guy who'd laid the floor. My ex was sure I wasn't contrite enough about the accident, and somehow that proved I didn't care enough about him. These are the 2 silliest examples he used. There were many many others. Anything he could fit in his script, he used. He CLUNG to them.

Our counselor told me I was doing and saying all the right things a good loving wife should. She became frustrated with my ex, who persisted in perceiving himself as unlovable. She then tried to get to the root of the matter-- why did he have such a low opinion of himself? I already knew it stemmed from his childhood, and to the so-called Christian attitude he was raised with, and from his parents using "shaming" as a disciplinary tool. Also from his parents having 4 more kids, one every 2 years, after him, becoming overwhelmed with the childcare, so he was shoved out of the nest too early. Etc. He developed such low self esteem, that by elementary school, he was an easy target for bullies. But my ex refused to delve into this, either in our couples' sessions, or his individual therapy with the same counselor. It was too painful for him to face, too triggering.

He was also depressed, but adamantly refused to take an anti-depressant to make it any easier to go into the childhood roots of his low self esteem.

So, finally, the counselor told him there was nothing else she could do for him, and "fired" him. I held on longer. I stayed with him another 8 years, for a total of 32. Wasted time! My own stubbornness, my own idea that monogamy meant being together FOREVER, being determined to work through everything, kept me trying to fix things. And "I LOVED him!"

However, I was working on my own shit then though too. I moved out of our shared bedroom into the guest room. It was a lovely sanctuary for 5 of those years. I went to individual therapy for 3 years. I needed to see where I was a part of this unhealthy dynamic.

And yes, like you, we had periods of time in those final years, despite our problems relating emotionally, where the sex was out of the box, over the top fantastic. I didn't want to lose that. heh

And I loved the guy. In fact, I left him when the good was 60%, the bad was 40%. Guess what? That wasn't good enough. I was tired of being watched and spied on and him constantly looking to have more proof I didn't love him, he was unlovable. I didn't want to be part of that head game anymore. It was wasting my precious time. We don't live forever. I wanted something better. Even being single was better than what I was dealing with.

So, we split. The Universe rewarded me. I found a new life partner almost right away. I wasn't on the rebound, since I was pulling away from the ex the last 8 years, bit by bit. I started embracing poly. My new partner was poly, and she aided and abetted me in my dating others. She also has great self esteem and feels worthy of love, and feels my love, besides also giving it back.

You're not there yet. You say your wife doesn't feel deserving of love. Do you feel deserving of a partner who can feel your love and trust it? Not just now and then after some good sex, but ALL THE TIME?
 
After reading these most recent posts reminded of the old Russian proverb that if three people tell you you're drunk, the least you can do is lie down.

I'm starting to realize I have a lot to think about, and a lot to talk about with my wife. I will write later today when I can about what I'm thinking about.
 
I guess what I'm starting to feel has nothingt to do with poly...but I guess it also does.

This thread has made me realize (re-realize) that I can't solve my wife's problems with self-esteem. I can speak my wife's love languages, and I can try to do things that make her happy. And for a while things might go well in our marriage, and life seems less dark, which is where we stand now. I might even start to think that progress is being made when she starts telling me that she knows that I love her, which does feel so good to hear.

But even during these good times I realize that I'll never be able to truly help her. If I've been telling her for 12 years that she's beautiful, and she still truly hates the way she looks, then I can be telling her she's beautiful for the next 12 years and nothing will change unless she wants to change. I can't help the fact that she hates her own name--not because she hates the name, but because it's hers. I can't help that she can't let go of her past rejections from decades ago. I can't undo all of the things she feels about herself.

But I think I already knew that, on some level.

What's different is that I'm starting to feel that things don't have to be this way. I look back on my past and realize the women I've been involved with in my life have acted the same way. My ex starved herself out of self-hatred and was really only stopped because otherwise she would have been dead. She was still seemed like the anorexic equivalent of a dry drunk, still obsessively attempting to prove herself by being "better" than everybody else. The Star was the queen of self-sabotage, constantly blowing up situations when she was happy out of...well, a desperate need to not be happy? And I, too, perhaps spent many years unhappy with myself thinking I wasn't worth much, and it wasn't so long ago that I was sunk so low in depression I didn't think I was going to find a way out. That I want to now find a way to be happy myself is only because I've finally come to the conclusion that I'm worth something.

So perhaps when I came here I was looking for help in understanding myself. But I think I've found something rather different--that I understand now that not everyone else is this way. Magdlyn's story resonated with me so much because up till so recently I've thought to myself, "sure The Signal has problems, but everybody has problems, at least everybody who'd be attracted to me." She thought the same thing for 32 years. Then she left her self-destructive husband and found someone positive and uplifting damn near immediately. Not that I think the same would (necessarily) happen to me, nor am I even thinking about leaving The Signal. But F. Scott Fitzgerald was wrong when he said there are no second acts in American lives--although I am probably nearing my fourth or fifth right now anyway. Hers isn't the only example I've heard from polyamory.

Maybe the thing I fear--that I'll be either alone without The Signal or doomed to find someone else who hates herself--maybe that's a fear I shouldn't be having. This board is full of women with with positive views of themselves. Perhaps I could meet someone like them. (Have I just friendzoned the entire board? Is that even possible?) If polyamory is at its heart defining what form of love works best for oneself, then perhaps only now I've defined what I need: to love someone who also loves herself.

And I hope, I hope to the exclusion of everything else right now, that woman who loves herself is The Signal. But it's not my choice. I can encourage her only so much. At some point I'm going to have to make a decision on what I can do--I can live like this for the rest of my life, or I can move on. That's scary, it's really scary. But I have to realize too that even as I define my relationships, I can't let my relationships define me.
 
If polyamory is at its heart defining what form of love works best for oneself, then perhaps only now I've defined what I need: to love someone who also loves herself.

Yup.

And I hope, I hope to the exclusion of everything else right now, that woman who loves herself is The Signal.

I hope so too. I hope she takes some personal responsibility for her own health care and does something concrete to try to improve it. Like make a doc appt.

If she will not do it and she needs involuntary commitment? You are the husband. You research what that takes and you could try that approach and hope for the best.

Or you can contact next of kin and stop being the husband. Let someone else take care of her in a patient relationship.

But it's not my choice. I can encourage her only so much.

Yup.

At some point I'm going to have to make a decision on what I can do--I can live like this for the rest of my life, or I can move on.

Yup. It really is that simple of a choice. Hard to feel maybe, but the actions are that straightforward. You decide what you will and will not put up with. Hopefully you pick things that don't take away from your OWN health and well being.

That's scary, it's really scary.

Yes. I can see that. It can feel scary.

Have been there and done that. For me? Having left a few relationships like that? It gets easier to leave and less scary. I've also had to do the involuntary commitment thing.

None of it is FUN.

But knowing I CAN cope with tough stuff, makes me less scared about facing it down again.

I can try to encourage and help but if they just don't want to help themselves? I leave them to the professionals.

I don't have to be sticking around past my point of tolerance like I give up on ME having a decent life. I only get the one life I get. It is not a dress rehearsal. If someone else is on a self destructive path? I don't have to keep them company. Will not do their patient management stuff? I don't have to be there. I can be there for someone who IS trying, but not for someone who has checked out.

If it has to end? I've also learned it is better for me end it clean, quick and linger in the healing space instead. Rather than me lingering in the breaking up space.

I am not telling you to break up with her at this time.

I am saying that you can encourage and you can give it a time frame to see if she is going to follow through or not. Then you can determine next steps based on her behavior.

I'm hoping for both your sakes she takes personal responsibility for her health care and steps it up.

If she will not get health care, as the husband, you may have to look at options in your area for involuntary commitment to get her mental health care. But if you don't want to and prefer to bow out? You contact her next of kin and let them take over in doing for her and you bow out then.

But I have to realize too that even as I define my relationships, I can't let my relationships define me.

Yup. I believe in second chances. Even third chances. I do not believe in the perpetual snooze tag. If more of same = same old stink? Why keep doing it? Who does it help? :confused:

If it turns out to be just more empty promises? It's ok to let it go and move on.

I do not think it is ok or healthy for you to join her in her downward spiral. :(

So again... I hope for both your sakes this is a wake up call for her and she actually starts trying to do something about bringing her conditions under management.

Galagirl
 
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You can say "I'm ready to move along with my life AND would welcome your being willing to join me."

I had to do that in '99, when my lover was being tempted back toward drugs. I finally told her that I'd risk my own life to help her get well, but if my only options involved supporting her return to addiction, I'd drop her like a hot rock & not look back.

She was half my age, beautiful, well-spoken, talented, one of the brightest people I've ever known. I guess she didn't take me seriously. :(

Really: read the Seabury book. Rereading it in this phase helped me a LOT.

You can always choose to sacrifice your life in vain... but please make it an intelligent CHOICE rather than some vague obligation.
 
Thank you for the amazing insight

This issue has very little to do with poly/mono and everything to do with her self esteem.

He helps by telling me he accepts me and wants to support me. It helps when he encourages me to talk about how I feel and just listens and I feel heard (rather than the way I feel dismissed when he says "but you ARE enough, you ARE good for me, etc.) It helps when he doesn't take responsibility or blame for how I feel or try to fix it. It helps when he doesn't try to cheer me up or ask me to stop crying. It helps me when he tells me how he feels and what he needs and wants instead of tiptoeing around trying to avoid upsetting me. I still think that stuff is WAY more than I deserve but it's his choice and I can't take responsibility for that either.

I'm not saying this means she should accept poly, I'm saying that's a whole separate issue than why she feels like she isn't enough.

Poly partner here, this was amazing insight for me into how my mono partner might be feeling, and how I can support them. Thank you so so much!
 
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