When Life Goals Change - Help with Advice / Comfort

[LittleSingingBat]

Take a long hard look at your dating history with her. I asked about that, but you didn't answer. What was the dynamic like in your former triad? How did things go when she found herself in a thing with Wolf and dumping you and your former shared male lover?

You have a long history with her. Where did it all go wrong, and why?

I must have missed it when you asked before-- my apologies. I'll relay now:

When I first met Lioness, she was engaged to Rhino. We were friends, participants in some of the same social circles.

At the time, I was dating my first serious romance (7 year sweetie), but things broke off with us when he was interested in another woman, but wasn't interested in being open and honest with me about it. Anyway, he and I broke it off and Rhino helped talk me through some of it, and that's when Rhino and I got close.

Rhino "brought me in" to the relationship-- but here's the killer-- when Lioness and I started to get closer, he got in between us. He insisted on being the go-between, and the center of attention.

We know now that Rhino was an emotionally abusive narcissist.

Anyway, Lioness and Wolf had a history of making out at parties, and when Wolf went through a pretty ugly patch in his first marriage, Lioness was there to help walk him through it. She told Rhino and me that she loved Wolf, and Rhino freaked out. I calmed him down with rhetoric of "She can love us all!" and "You don't love me any more than her, right? We can make it through this." I reminded him that we'd even talked of how, if Wolf's marriage failed, we might consider him for a quad with us, because we all worked so nicely together.

I did, however, caution Lioness that she ought to wait to develop the relationship until Wolf's marriage resolved itself, one way or another.

She did not wait. Wolf got divorced, not long after they were dating, then married, and then had Baby 1.

I was angry. It took a long time and a lot of work on Wolf and Lioness's parts to make a friend of me again, but it happened, and we grew close. In fact, we even explored dating some while I was engaged to Rhino.

But I was becoming more and more concerned about Rhino's narcissistic tendencies. Wolf talked to both of us (Rhino and I) and tried to help us work through it, but soon it became clear that Rhino just wasn't a healthy match for me, and, eventually, I left Rhino. A few months later, Lioness had twins, and I stepped in (as a friend-- I was dating someone else, mono but poly-friendly, at the time) to help. Then we started to grow closer there, so, instead of making the same mistakes we'd made before, we started talking about Us. About what it meant to be poly. We told each other that this was a conscious effort, not just a falling in this time.

Lioness and I have both grown in great strides since our time with Rhino, and we have both gotten better about communicating with each other. I really feel like she and I would have grown closer back in the first relationship if Rhino hadn't deliberately cut us off. And that's why I was willing to give this relationship (Lioness+Wolf+Me) a shot.

I think Wolf is flailing. He is used to submitting to her desires and plans, and may not be cut out to be a "good hinge" at all.

...Is Wolf willing or able to do this kind of balancing of needs and desires he would have to do to keep both you and Lioness happy and feeling like things are fair? If willing, how would he even have a chance to try negotiating if Lioness is dead set against you having his bio-kid? You're fucked before you start.

That's just it. I told him that he is going to have to stand up to Lioness and fight for what he wants (if it is, indeed, what he wants). But I just don't know that he has it in him. I think she's always going to walk all over him, and that means it's good-bye time for me.

 

[kdt26417]

Sorry to hear that ... but, I can see that it's for the best.

 

[LittleSingingBat]

Update

Well.

Lioness texted us both today of an idea she had. Of a compromise.

She came home and gave me a (sweet) letter saying that she wanted to try really dating me. That she wouldn't be able to do it on her own, that I would have to "Lean in" too, but that we'd give it a shot and see where it went.

She said we could try, and we could see if that could help her move back her blocks on my having Baby 4- but that it wasn't a promise, of course. She couldn't be sure how she'd feel, but she'd try.

Essentially, going back to how things were (but with her "trying" and without any promise of Baby 4) was her "compromise."

I counter-offered that I would happily and whole-heartedly date her- without reservation- with the understanding that Wolf and I were in a relationship too, and that, no matter what, he and I would be able to have a child. I also told her that I could not continue this or any permutation of this relationship without the promise, in some form or another, of a biological baby.

She said that I'd rejected her offer. She said we'd look to Wolf to suggest another compromise.

He had no other ideas than the ones we'd previously proposed. Lioness would not consent to any, would not consent to promising the baby in any manner, and I refused to go "all in," on any relationship without my need being met.

So we broke up tonight. I am so heartsick. Wolf is too. Lioness also seem to be upset, and kept saying that she wished she felt another way. But she would not bend and I could not yield.

They were sweet enough about it. Maybe too much so. Hovering and trying to make sure I am okay. But... I don't want their consolation.

I am so sad and alone.

Thank you for all of your excellent advice, and thank you for taking the time to help me. I truly appreciate it.

With love,
Little Singing Bat

 

[GreenAcres]

*so many hugs*

I am so sorry. For what it is worth, and I know it doesn't help, but I think you did the right thing in advocating for your needs and not accepting her "offer" (which wasn't really much of a compromise, frankly).

 

[Magdlyn]

Wow. OK. You sure do have a checkered past with Lioness. I am sorry, but she still sounds like a narcissist and a user to me. Maybe not a full fledged narc. but definitely with narc. characteristics.

She was with Rhino. You were "brought into" the relationship, whatever that means, that he had with Lioness. Does that mean you were in a V, but you moved in with them? Because Rhino got pissy when you and Lioness started to feel affectionate/sexual for each other.

So, then she flitted on to Wolf, a man in a troubled relationship. (Maybe, being a narcissist herself, and with you in the picture, she'd had enough of THAT triad.) So... she'd make out at parties with Wolf. Get drunk and mess around? Oopsie! Our bad, teehee! Did his wife know? Was Wolf even poly?

And somehow, against your advice, she lured Wolf completely away from his wife, he got divorced, she married him and they had a kid.

You were mad... well, you were off getting engaged to the Narcissist. You let it go. But when Rhino turned out to be a piece of shit, you allowed Lioness to lure you back as a friend, as an unpaid nanny, and a live in lover. She must be Very Persuasive, to overcome your revulsion at her homewrecker behavior from before, to the point you started having sex with her and her new guy, even.

And so, you came here. You got some feedback on how she has recently been treating you. You do sound like a nice caring empathetic person, but it sounds to me like you've been hoodwinked by 2 narc's in a row. You're a career unicorn at this point. I'm glad you broke up. You deserve better than to be number two, to be in the middle of a user and his or her partner.

Personal story: It's strange, but the narc I was with for 2 1/2 years, what caused me to break up with him was him hooking up with a married couple. He triangulated me with them, and he triangulated the married couple against each other. I only met the male of that couple once, but he had red flag narcissist signs all over him too. We spent 5 hours at a party and I saw that every time someone said they'd done something, he'd say he'd done it earlier, and better than they had. You brewed beer for a couple years? He'd brewed beer for 7 years and won awards. You went to the Mexican pyramids when you were 40? He went to Tibet when he was 25. Things like that.

Anyway, I am sorry you went through all this. Sincerely, I know first hand how it rips your heart out... But I hope you learned to look out for narcissists and beware triads. Keep reading about narcissists and triads and the red flags and pitfalls that can trap and hurt you.

 

[LittleSingingBat]

She was with Rhino. You were "brought into" the relationship, whatever that means, that he had with Lioness. Does that mean you were in a V, but you moved in with them? Because Rhino got pissy when you and Lioness started to feel affectionate/sexual for each other.

Honestly, it was a long time ago, but I think the idea was that we would "all date each other," even then. The trouble was that when Lioness and I became more involved without Rhino as arbiter, he got incredibly pissy. So we stopped, and that definitely stymied the feelings I was having for Lioness.

So, then she flitted on to Wolf, a man in a troubled relationship. (Maybe, being a narcissist herself, and with you in the picture, she'd had enough of THAT triad.) So... she'd make out at parties with Wolf. Get drunk and mess around? Oopsie! Our bad, teehee! Did his wife know? Was Wolf even poly?

Wolf and his wife were "poly," as in, she wanted to have relationships outside the marriage but would go apeshit when he wanted to pursue one. In the way-back, that wife told Wolf he could have a relationship with Lioness, but then punished him for it, so they broke it off.

And somehow, against your advice, she lured Wolf completely away from his wife, he got divorced, she married him and they had a kid.

His marriage really was circling the drain... but yeah, I was pissed because she abandoned me, especially after I stood up *for* her. And I mentioned that we'd talked about being a quad- did I say that was because I had a great deal of affection for Wolf and would have pursued his as a partner if not for his terrible wife? No? Well, I should have.
Anyway, it was less than a year before Lioness and Wolf married, and less than a year after that when they got pregnant. So you can see where I later got pissed/suspicious about Lioness's clear double-standard on relationship timelines and all that. (More hypocrisy from her... it's okay for her to get with Wolf quickly, but when we do it, it's "moving too fast.")

You were mad... well, you were off getting engaged to the Narcissist. You let it go. But when Rhino turned out to be a piece of shit, you allowed Lioness to lure you back as a friend, as an unpaid nanny, and a live in lover. She must be Very Persuasive, to overcome your revulsion at her homewrecker behavior from before, to the point you started having sex with her and her new guy, even.

Like I said, I had feelings for Wolf and it was Wolf that initially drew me. I fell in love with him, absolutely. Recognizing this, we of course took it to his wife, and, when it came to Lioness, she wanted to me to date them both (red flag, I know now), maybe because of our first poly relationship together? Anyway, I was willing to try dating both because I had had feelings for her, once, and this time Wolf would be encouraging of it, instead of controlling like Rhino.

As I said, I worked my butt off, and I really thought things were going well. We were building the family we'd all dreamed of. It was really happening!
That is, of course, until Lioness decided she didn't want any more kids, and that meant I didn't get to have one either.

Then, of course, she also wouldn't tolerate the idea of me dating Wolf alone. Which brought in the unicorn concerns. I think you're right. I think I was a unicorn the whole time- we just didn't notice because everything seemed to be so aligned. Except, of course, for the deal-breaker with me. Which even Lioness says she waited to talk about because she was "scared to break our hearts," and "scared that it would push me away."

Which I can't help but think of now as "I had these thoughts but couldn't afford to lose you as a babysitter just yet." So, she waited until the twins and toddler were better able to be handled by two adults. Thanks for that, Lioness.

And so, you came here. You got some feedback on how she has recently been treating you. You do sound like a nice caring empathetic person, but it sounds to me like you've been hoodwinked by 2 narc's in a row. You're a career unicorn at this point. I'm glad you broke up. You deserve better than to be number two, to be in the middle of a user and his or her partner.

Thank you, and you're right. I will find someone else who can treasure me, or I'll make it on my own. I don't need anyone but me.

Also... it's probably a little bad, but I can't help but hope they realize what a mistake they made. I don't want them to try begging me to come back, or anything, but I do hope that when they've got kids up to their ears, they miss the help and hard work I could give.

Oh well. Too bad for them.

 

[Magdlyn]

Also... it's probably a little bad, but I can't help but hope they realize what a mistake they made. I don't want them to try begging me to come back, or anything, but I do hope that when they've got kids up to their ears, they miss the help and hard work I could give.

It is not bad at all to think that. And if you've been reading at Psychopath Free, you will see it's extremely common for a narc. to try and lure you back in after a few weeks. My ex did that.

Go no contact! Don't let her start with the compliments and the "Oh, we miss you so much, you're great, you're beautiful, etc., etc., yada yada."

Stay strong. Go hang out with your normal friends and beware of manipulative people. Maybe you want to focus on being mono and looking for a really nice man or woman to start a family with now. But if you decide to keep practicing poly, remember, being poly doesn't automatically mean triads. A triad fantasy is awesome, because in your head, everyone is happy and equal and loves each other. The reality rarely comes up to the fantasy; it's almost always a shit show. If you do a tag search for triads or couple privilege here, you will see many many stories similar to yours.

Hugs!

 

[LittleSingingBat]

Don't let her start with the compliments and the "Oh, we miss you so much, you're great, you're beautiful, etc., etc., yada yada."

She's already started with that bull... during the break up she was full of "it's not you, it's me! You were great. You are fantastic. You did everything we could have asked of you!"

And then she sent an email last night-

Even if you aren't comfy being in the big bedroom, if you need company even for platonic cuddles we can be there for you. Either of us will stay with you upon request.

... Please don't isolate yourself. We are here however you do or don't need.

Love,
Lioness

1) I definitely don't want comfort from you, Lioness, because YOU did this!

2) That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

So, yeah, how about no.

Another thing... Wolf stepped out of the room last night and she begged me to be gentle with him. "He's hurting so bad."

And when he was in the room, she begged for me not to "rip off the bandaid," as in, make the transition away slowly.

But you know what? I think that wasn't for him at all, but for HER. Because if he hurts too much, he might challenge her oh-so-comfy position.

Sorry, sweetie. Bat's gonna do what's right for HER for once.

 

[Magdlyn]

I love how she speaks for the both of them. Not! Isn't she just so special?

 

[IndieSolo]

Wow, that Lioness is a real piece of work, isn't she? What a fucked-up email. I am sorry it ended, but it looked like it really had to. I am heartened very much by how strongly you stood up for what you want and need in order to have any sort of satisfaction and happiness in a relationship. Way to go.

I hope you can move out as soon as possible, even to someplace temporary. You don't need to be around all that crazy.

 

[Ravenscroft]

I love how she speaks for the both of them.

It's a tactic (possibly unconscious) to reinforce the couple-front. Underuse of the selfish "I" statements, rather the implication "what I want & what WE want are identical"; questioning this could then be painted as an attack on Lioness AND on Wolf AND on their dyad AND on the entire family.

Anyone want to start a pool as to when they recruit another helpmeet?

 

[Spork]

#BATLIFEMATTERS

*hugs* I'm sorry that the dream fell apart. I know how it felt like it was all going so well. But I am glad that you're standing your ground.

You identified that the baby thing is a NEED. Not a want, a need and a life goal. You won't feel fulfilled as a human being without doing this. It isn't negotiable.

And it has a time limit. A clock ticking on the years you can do this safely, and how old you will be when your child is grown.

And if Lioness & Wolf cannot do this with you, then you need the additional time to sort out either a new partner, or how you could do it on your own with DNA donation.

Therefore logically you just simply cannot wait until Lioness is "ready."

And if she isn't ready by now, she isn't GOING to be, after all you've invested and all the times that everything was perfect and golden and nothing was wrong. What in the heck makes her think you two can "lean in" and build enough of a thing to make her feel safer in this? Now that this difficulty has come, if anything it would be harder and not easier. It would probably feel forced. Love does not thrive under such conditions.

So whether she realizes it or not, she is blowing smoke because she liked the status quo and wanted to keep it, and LSB's needs be damned.

Well, that just isn't how this works. *hugs* Strength, Bat. Keep your own value and needs in sight, and try to carefully identify the red flags so that your next relationship is a healthier and happier one.

 

[LittleSingingBat]

Update --

Lioness's high-stress work week is over. So is the family vacation with Lioness and her family (where she, Wolf, and kids all left for a week and I was not invited by her family to join.)

Before they left, Our last conversation had been about how, in an equal poly relationship, the decision of whether or not Wolf and I have a baby belongs to just Wolf and me, and that Lioness's choice is how much she wants to have to do with that kiddo. (Same house? Separate house, etc.)

She hated it. We talked of breaking up. I moved out of the master bedroom, and talked about moving out of the house.

But something changed.

Maybe it was the time away. Maybe Lioness really did just need time to reflect and think about the situation.

The point is, they came back and they wanted to talk about where we are. Lioness-- on her own (Wolf and I were blown away!) recognized that she was wrong to want to control Wolf and I, and though she is not sure how much she will want to be involved with our child, she accepts that the choice to have one at all is ours.

We also discussed that Lioness is feeling overwhelmed (one of the reasons she does not want another child), and does not have the energy to try to pursue me romantically at this time, but recognizes too, how much Wolf and I mean to each other, and loves us both enough that she doesn't want us to hurt or try to make us give up the other.

So, now we've decided to try a V. I will continue to live in the other end of the house (we're so lucky it's big enough for that!) and Wolf will sleep with her sometimes, with me sometimes, and sometimes we'll still all sleep together (that's his favorite, and neither of Us gals are opposed).

When it comes time for Wolf and I to think about trying for a baby in the spring (we both still want one together at this point), we'll talk to Lioness again about it, and I'll probably keep the baby with me at my end of the house at night, turning the office next to my bedroom into our nursery.

It has only been two days since our decision to try a V, but things already feel SO much better. I finally feel like I have agency again!

I'm happy to help throw in with my family, and I am feeling more appreciated when I do. Lioness too, seems happier, and is delighted that I am "coming back to her," with as much energy and joy as I am. Wolf is still adapting, but seems positive and hopeful too.

I'm going to continue reading More Than Two and researching V's (and how to be a good metamour!) I want to take care of Wolf, his children, and his wife too.

I really do love them all. <3

 

[breathemusic]

I think it's great that she's coming to all of these realizations and that you and Wolf are now able to have that autonomy to have your own relationship!

Part of me wants to celebrate for you, but I also can't help but point out that Lioness wants to try a V and do all of this stuff, but that doesn't mean she won't react badly again down the road. I think it's important that you and Wolf have some conversations of your own and that if he's going to commit to having a kid with you then he needs to grow a backbone and stand up for that autonomy as well if Lioness tries to impact you and Wolf's relationship negatively again, or changes her mind again, etc.

Educating yourself on how Vs work is great, but I really hope that Wolf and Lioness will take responsibility and do research themselves as well since THEY are the ones that haven't really done the best job of accepting what those roles would be so far.

Giving yourself that buffer between now and spring for you guys to settle into a V seems like a really great opportunity to see how things go though, so congrats on the rest of your family seeing the light and being open to relationship styles that can hopefully work better for all!

 

[Dagferi]

Honestly.. I wouldn't trust Lioness with a ten foot pole. Imo it is all a manipulative tactic. I am sure she will have a melt down in the future.

When people show their true colors believe them.

 

[LittleSingingBat]

Part of me wants to celebrate for you, but I also can't help but point out that Lioness wants to try a V and do all of this stuff, but that doesn't mean she won't react badly again down the road. I think it's important that you and Wolf have some conversations of your own and that if he's going to commit to having a kid with you then he needs to grow a backbone and stand up for that autonomy as well if Lioness tries to impact you and Wolf's relationship negatively again, or changes her mind again, etc.

You are absolutely right-- and Wolf and I have been and will continue to talk about this. We have acknowledged that there is a possibility that Lioness will refuse us when spring comes. And I have his word that he will be standing up to her then, and that we'll find a way, even if it's in another house, or even if it means re-evaluating the relationship.

I have faith in Wolf.

On the bright side, Wolf also feels that, with help so she doesn't feel so overwhelmed, Lioness is going to come to want our child as much as we do, and while I do not have quite the same level of faith that he does, I am certainly willing to try. She is my dear friend and I do love her, and helping her (even if she later decides she still doesn't want to be involved with my child) is what I want, is what I'm choosing, and that makes all the difference to me.

Dagferi -- normally I'd agree with you, but in this case, the character of the Lioness I've known for ten years is much more in line with her current actions. It's actually why I was so bewildered when she started exhibiting the more possessive / negative traits just recently. This Lioness is the one I fell in love with. I think it's very possible that the combination of stress factors and post-pregnancy hormones (she was also taking meds to help with breastfeeding) made her into a person that even she didn't like very much.

Knowing that Wolf has my back no matter what, I'm willing to give Lioness a chance to grow and de-stress and come back to us.

---

Edit!

Educating yourself on how Vs work is great, but I really hope that Wolf and Lioness will take responsibility and do research themselves as well since THEY are the ones that haven't really done the best job of accepting what those roles would be so far.

I forgot to mention that we've decided to research these things too, as our "homework." We're going to read and research and then discuss, kind of like a "polyamory book club."

Thank you so much, Breathe!

 

[kdt26417]

I'm happy for you, LSB. Now let's hope Lioness keeps her word. (And that Wolf keeps his.)

 

[tenK]

This sounds very positive! Remember, even if things do backslide a bit at some point in the future, that bumps in the road are normal. A few weeks ago you were feeling very despondent about the possibilities of Lioness wading through her feelings and accepting any kind of change, and now things look to be heading in a better direction for all of you. I've been thinking a lot recently about how there are many different types of trust, and how 'trust in the ability to be resilient' is often related to feelings of security. Although this has been a painful period, I hope it has taught you all that you ARE resilient to the ups and downs of being three different people who are occasionally out of synch with one another, and allow you to trust in the future that you can all work together to find solutions no matter what life throws at you.

 

[IndieSolo]

Sounds like a better living arrangement in a big house. It is good to have your own space, no matter what sort of configuration your relationship is (vee, triad, etc.)

Our last conversation had been about how, in an equal poly relationship, the decision of whether or not Wolf and I have a baby belongs to just Wolf and me, and that Lioness's choice is how much she wants to have to do with that kiddo. (Same house? Separate house, etc.)

She hated it. We talked of breaking up. I moved out of the master bedroom, and talked about moving out of the house.

But something changed.

. . . she is not sure how much she will want to be involved with our child, she accepts that the choice to have one at all is ours.

We also discussed that Lioness is feeling overwhelmed (one of the reasons she does not want another child), and does not have the energy to try to pursue me romantically at this time, but recognizes too, how much Wolf and I mean to each other, and loves us both enough that she doesn't want us to hurt or try to make us give up the other.

. . . When it comes time for Wolf and I to think about trying for a baby in the spring (we both still want one together at this point), we'll talk to Lioness again about it . . .

Two things about this last bit I bolded:
First, did you address the inequity of Lioness welcoming you back to help with her kids and yet not sure if she'd be willing to help with yours? It appears to be a selfish stance, and I think it probably reflects a feeling ownership with her children, along with how she views the help you give (are you a co-parent or an auntie?) Feeling so overwhelmed right now, she probably thinks she couldn't feel at all parental or loving toward your child. I hope that changes, and I hope you all reach a place where all three of you are and feel like co-parents. That would seem best for the kids

Second, when you and Wolf are ready, does "talking to her about it" mean simply that you two will let Lioness know that you will begin to try getting pregnant? I sincerely hope it does not mean that you are going to talk to her to ask permission! Otherwise, all the above changes and agreements would be for nothing.

 

[LittleSingingBat]

Remember, even if things do backslide a bit at some point in the future, that bumps in the road are normal...I hope it has taught you all that you ARE resilient to the ups and downs of being three different people who are occasionally out of synch with one another, and allow you to trust in the future that you can all work together to find solutions no matter what life throws at you.

That is an excellent point, tenK. We would do well to remember it as an example that we can overcome rough patches together. Thank you!

And thank you, kdt26417. I hope Lioness does too, and I have complete faith that Wolf will keep his word to me no matter what Lioness does.

Two things about this last bit I bolded:
First, did you address the inequity of Lioness welcoming you back to help with her kids and yet not sure if she'd be willing to help with yours? It appears to be a selfish stance, and I think it probably reflects a feeling ownership with her children, along with how she views the help you give (are you a co-parent or an auntie?) Feeling so overwhelmed right now, she probably thinks she couldn't feel at all parental or loving toward your child. I hope that changes, and I hope you all reach a place where all three of you are and feel like co-parents. That would seem best for the kids.

I have addressed the fact that it stings that Lioness does not (currently) want to help with my child the way that I have helped with hers. (I have been acting as a co-parent.) Lioness goes back and forth a little, so I think it's her being overwhelmed that is talking right now, as she has said "Of course I would help take care of your kiddo, I just can't even imagine doing that right now" and was therefore hesitant to invite it, back when she hadn't accepted that the choice of having a kid wasn't hers.

I really think that, in, what? more than a year from now, she's going to feel differently. Once her kiddos are less draining on her (and with Wolf and I to help), I think that she's going to want to be as much a co-parent to my child as I have been to hers.

Second, when you and Wolf are ready, does "talking to her about it" mean simply that you two will let Lioness know that you will begin to try getting pregnant? I sincerely hope it does not mean that you are going to talk to her to ask permission! Otherwise, all the above changes and agreements would be for nothing.

Talking about it with Lioness means informing her as a person who will be impacted, but doesn't get to say "yes" or "no." Kind of like talking to a grandparent might be. She asked not so that she can have a veto, but so that she can figure out then what she wants her involvement with our child to be. And I think that's entirely fair.