Cheating

[GalaGirl]

Every cheater I've ever known (and I've known many - you'd be very surprised who is cheating) chooses cheating to preserve and protect the nesting relationship.

This is where My confusion really sets in.

On one hand, you say the reason people lie about their feelings, and then act on their wants without a discussion or at least notification (ergo, cheat) is because their partner leaves very little room for honesty, would occur wrath of their partner and destroy the relationship. This implies that the relationship is unhealthy in terms of being able to communicate effectively at the very least, and is abusive at the very worst. Either way, it is a relationship that needs work.

So...why would someone want to preserve this relationship unless they have been actively conditioned/blackmailed/abused into having to?

I've observed it more like

"Some cheaters I have known? They choose cheating on the side in order to preserve and protect their continued access to the goods and services provided by the nesting partner."

There doesn't have to be any “wrath” or “destruction” in the relationship. There's doesn't have to be any blackmail or abuse. Sometimes the relationship with the nesting partner is NICE.

That is WHY some chose to cheat. The want to preserve their access to the goods and services that makes it so nice!

I think you might be assuming both partners value the same things in the same way. Sometimes they don't.

Nesting partner who is in the dark? Doesn't realize anything is amiss. They don't know anything "needs work" to bring the relationship into better alignment with their value of “honest communication.” They think they ARE getting honest communication. They are in the dark.

The nesting partner might leave plenty of room in the relationship for honest communication. Welcomes it, values it, etc. But you know what? If their partner doesn't ALSO share in this value? They aren't gonna use the space. *shrug*

The other partner? Keeping nesting partner in the dark works out just fine for them. Saying whatever and keeping nesting partner in the dark IS effective communication from their POV. It is effective because it produces the desired result: continued access to the nesting partner and new access to the person on the side. And not having to do any uncomfortable honesty stuff.

"Honest communication" as a value would actually be an inconvenience that may disrupt their continued access and their personal comfort level. They aren't gonna be in a hurry to "promote" honesty up higher on their personal standard ruler.

I think they know the nesting partner wants honest communication and monogamy. They run the odds in their heads, consciously or subconsciously. It affects their final behavior choice. They end up picking cheating.

Enter the mindset and run the scale. And remember, you are NOT a person who has (honesty) as your highest value. You highest value is (your own comfort). You know your partner likes honesty, and when it's not impeding your own comfort, you will be honest.

You are honest you don't like brussel sprouts. This helps maintain your comfort because then your spouse isn't cooking any and putting it on your plate.

Your partner asks you about the color of the couch cushions. You don't really care. You just want cushions to be comfy. You might be honest and say "I don't care. I just want cushions to be comfy." You might be tell a small fib to bank some “feel goods” and say "I really like the purple ones you picked out, hon." No skin off your nose either way -- you have maintained your comfort because cushions have been purchased.

Alright. Here we go...

PROBLEM:

• I want continued access to the goods and services my monogamous nesting partner provides me
• I also want access to new partners

What are my behavior choices? We measure (my comfort level) with + and - signs. That is the highest value on my personal standard ruler here. NOT (honesty). Cuz honesty is not always comfortable to me and I don't value it esp high on my ruler.

• I am honest. I tell partner. Not comfortable to do. (-)
• They still want monogamy. (-)
• Big blow up or having a cow. Not comfortable. (-)
• Dumps me. I have lost access. Less comfortable. (-)

Well, I don't like that one. It is -4

• I am honest. I tell partner.Not comfortable to do. (-)
• They still want monogamy. (-)
• No blow up or cow. (+)
• Dumps me. I have lost access. Less comfortable. (-)

I don't like that one. It is +1, -3

• I am honest. I tell partner. Not comfortable to do.(-)
• They are willing to drop monogamy. Unlikely, but say they are. (+)
• We try but don't have the skills or have incompatible styles of open/poly and this causes blow ups, cows, etc. Not comfortable. (-)
• Dump me. I have lost access. Less comfortable. (-)

That's a drag too. +1, -3.

• I am honest. I tell partner. Not comfortable to do.(-)
• They are willing to drop monogamy. Unlikely, but say they are. (+)
• No cows. We try and have the skills and have compatible styles of open/poly. (+)
• I keep access to nesting partner. (+)[/COLOR]

-1, +3. And this is a LONG shot, and I know it.

• I do not communicate honestly with partner. More comfortable (+)
• I decide cheat. I know it is not honest behavior, but I don't value honesty super high on my ruler anyway. (- / + )
• I give nesting partner the ILLUSION of monogamy which means I maintain access to goods and services provided by nesting partner (+)
• I get to avoid blow ups for now. So long as I am not caught I should be good. (+/-)
  

+2, and 2 that are a +/- mixed bag. Going down this path actually does better for "my personal comfort." It's not all roses, but it's better than how the other ones are measuring with lots of - . And unlike the long shot? This one is within reach. At a cost, but in reach.

Maybe seeing it from that POV helps you unconfuse?

When it is framed in terms of “maintaining access” to the goods and services provided by the nesting partner?

And when the personal standard ruler is "What is comfortable for me?"

Remember... not everyone is gonna value the things you value in the same order on their personal standard ruler. And some of the stuff you value? Maybe not even appear on their ruler. Not even at a low number.

Now is any of that something I'd call "healthy relationship" or "being right relationship" with the nesting partner? No.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm not assuming all people are mono, I am saying that is what they agreed to. Mono is pretty black and white. If they want these things, why have deception if they have no relationship problems?

Social conditioning and expectations.

Agreed. I also wonder why. I also wonder why someone would not get clarification (assuming the relationship was not abusive) from their spouse?

Because we don't live in a perfect utopian world.

Say I feel neglected by my spouse. Maybe some of it he can't help. He's very busy at work, or whatever. But sometimes it seems he could put in more effort. I even ask for more attention and he ignores me. I get frustrated. One night he's out working. I'm alone again. A male friend of ours calls and asks what we're up to. I say, Spouse is working, I'm just sitting at home. He comes over. We decide to go to see some live music at a bar. We have drinks, we do some dancing.

Later we get back and my spouse is all, Where were you? I go, Bill called, we went out (as friends) to X bar, and yes, we danced, you know I love dancing.

My spouse gets all grumpy. But my point was gotten across. I didn't go dancing to "make him jealous." I went because I felt neglected and bored and I like music and Bill and to dance. Admittedly, Bill is hot. I felt a little flattered he that we went out together. I felt a little frisson of sexual excitement. So what? That's not "bad," it's just normal.

But, I can tell my spouse feels like we both cheated on him.

After that, a husband might be more attentive. To win his wife back. Having another man involved might make him fight to win her back. Or, he might be less attentive than ever, because he's got low self esteem and doesn't really think he deserves love anyway. It could go either way. I've seen similar situations go either way.

When my husband and I were mono (for the first 7.5 years of our 10.5 year relationship), we actually did this. We were 16 and 17. We wanted to know what the other considered cheating as to avoid it by accident.

I'd say you were pretty unusual teenagers.

This is where my confusion really sets in.

On one hand, you say the reason people lie about their feelings, and then act on their wants without a discussion or at least notification (ergo, cheat) is because their partner leaves very little room for honesty, would occur wrath of their partner and destroy the relationship. This implies that the relationship is unhealthy in terms of being able to communicate effectively at the very least, and is abusive at the very worst. Either way, it is a relationship that needs work.

So...why would someone want to preserve this relationship unless they have been actively conditioned/blackmailed/abused into having to?

Actively conditioned! Everyone is, not just by their specific spouse or SO, but mono culture itself. The power of the culture as a whole is almost impossible to fight. Only brave pioneers do. And they get shit for it. From their parents, siblings, friends, even from their therapists.

 

[FallenAngelina]

El Mango, I hate to sound like an old fart, but think perhaps you'll understand all of this better when you have a few more decades of living under your belt. There's a reason that cheating is common and that is because it fits into a world in which people are human and relationships have no playbook. Cheating isn't some outlying crime, it's everywhere and has existed all throughout history in all cultures. It's not necessarily something people are driven to do because of something extreme like abuse, it's a pretty basic human situation if we go by the percentages. On a par with putting too much on the credit card. Sure, everyone knows that we "shouldn't" do it, but decent people do it - a lot of decent, fairly well adjusted people do it - and there are many reasons for it. I think those reasons are perhaps much more readily understood when a person has a quite a bit of adult mileage in life than when a person is just beginning.

 

[ElMango]

Mango, you live in a black and white world. Most of us live in the grey.

I mean I don't overall, but assume all you want. But with this I genuinely fail to see how the excuses are anything other than that. And saying that I only see black and white really doesn't answer the questions I asked.

 

[ElMango]

I've observed it more like

"Some cheaters I have known? They choose cheating on the side in order to preserve and protect their continued access to the goods and services provided by the nesting partner."

There doesn't have to be any “wrath” or “destruction” in the relationship. There's doesn't have to be any blackmail or abuse. Sometimes the relationship with the nesting partner is NICE.

That is WHY some chose to cheat. The want to preserve their access to the goods and services that makes it so nice!

I think you might be assuming both partners value the same things in the same way. Sometimes they don't.

Nesting partner who is in the dark? Doesn't realize anything is amiss. They don't know anything "needs work" to bring the relationship into better alignment with their value of “honest communication.” They think they ARE getting honest communication. They are in the dark.

The nesting partner might leave plenty of room in the relationship for honest communication. Welcomes it, values it, etc. But you know what? If their partner doesn't ALSO share in this value? They aren't gonna use the space. *shrug*

The other partner? Keeping nesting partner in the dark works out just fine for them. Saying whatever and keeping nesting partner in the dark IS effective communication from their POV. It is effective because it produces the desired result: continued access to the nesting partner and new access to the person on the side. And not having to do any uncomfortable honesty stuff.

"Honest communication" as a value would actually be an inconvenience that may disrupt their continued access and their personal comfort level. They aren't gonna be in a hurry to "promote" honesty up higher on their personal standard ruler.

I think they know the nesting partner wants honest communication and monogamy. They run the odds in their heads, consciously or subconsciously. It affects their final behavior choice. They end up picking cheating.

Enter the mindset and run the scale. And remember, you are NOT a person who has (honesty) as your highest value. You highest value is (your own comfort). You know your partner likes honesty, and when it's not impeding your own comfort, you will be honest.

You are honest you don't like brussel sprouts. This helps maintain your comfort because then your spouse isn't cooking any and putting it on your plate.

Your partner asks you about the color of the couch cushions. You don't really care. You just want cushions to be comfy. You might be honest and say "I don't care. I just want cushions to be comfy." You might be tell a small fib to bank some “feel goods” and say "I really like the purple ones you picked out, hon." No skin off your nose either way -- you have maintained your comfort because cushions have been purchased.

Alright. Here we go...

PROBLEM:

• I want continued access to the goods and services my monogamous nesting partner provides me
• I also want access to new partners

What are my behavior choices? We measure (my comfort level) with + and - signs. That is the highest value on my personal standard ruler here. NOT (honesty). Cuz honesty is not always comfortable to me and I don't value it esp high on my ruler.

• I am honest. I tell partner. Not comfortable to do. (-)
• They still want monogamy. (-)
• Big blow up or having a cow. Not comfortable. (-)
• Dumps me. I have lost access. Less comfortable. (-)

Well, I don't like that one. It is -4

• I am honest. I tell partner.Not comfortable to do. (-)
• They still want monogamy. (-)
• No blow up or cow. (+)
• Dumps me. I have lost access. Less comfortable. (-)

I don't like that one. It is +1, -3

• I am honest. I tell partner. Not comfortable to do.(-)
• They are willing to drop monogamy. Unlikely, but say they are. (+)
• We try but don't have the skills or have incompatible styles of open/poly and this causes blow ups, cows, etc. Not comfortable. (-)
• Dump me. I have lost access. Less comfortable. (-)

That's a drag too. +1, -3.

• I am honest. I tell partner. Not comfortable to do.(-)
• They are willing to drop monogamy. Unlikely, but say they are. (+)
• No cows. We try and have the skills and have compatible styles of open/poly. (+)
• I keep access to nesting partner. (+)[/COLOR]

-1, +3. And this is a LONG shot, and I know it.

• I do not communicate honestly with partner. More comfortable (+)
• I decide cheat. I know it is not honest behavior, but I don't value honesty super high on my ruler anyway. (- / + )
• I give nesting partner the ILLUSION of monogamy which means I maintain access to goods and services provided by nesting partner (+)
• I get to avoid blow ups for now. So long as I am not caught I should be good. (+/-)
  

+2, and 2 that are a +/- mixed bag. Going down this path actually does better for "my personal comfort." It's not all roses, but it's better than how the other ones are measuring with lots of - . And unlike the long shot? This one is within reach. At a cost, but in reach.

Maybe seeing it from that POV helps you unconfuse?

When it is framed in terms of “maintaining access” to the goods and services provided by the nesting partner?

And when the personal standard ruler is "What is comfortable for me?"

Remember... not everyone is gonna value the things you value in the same order on their personal standard ruler. And some of the stuff you value? Maybe not even appear on their ruler. Not even at a low number.

Now is any of that something I'd call "healthy relationship" or "being right relationship" with the nesting partner? No.

Galagirl

While I still find that behavior unethical, that explanation makes sense

 

[Vicki82]

I dunno. I grew up a very black and white person, but I would like to think I see things much more in gray now than I used to.

But I can't see this as anything other than a selfish act, like Gala put it- designed to maintain access to a family/relationship that they might not get to have access to if their partner discovered their choices.

Absolutely people can value other things more in a relationship than sex or intimacy. There is nothing wrong with ordering things in any way that suits yourself. But if they value other things more, that doesn't make it okay to go seek the bits they are missing without their partner's consent.

Consent, to me, is very black and white. You either have it, or you don't. Cheating violates their partner's consent.

I understand that some situations have no good options. It seems like we've had several of those posted above where there legitimately is no winning option for everyone. Unfortunately, that's how the world works. We still have to make choices, and there are still consequences for those choices. I just don't think that your partner's consent and trust should be the thing to go under the bus when you have crappy choices. I think that says a lot about the cheater as a person and how they prioritize themselves over their partner.

 

[Evie]

If cheater's SO is withholding some form of intimacy that previously existed in the relationship, they are already breaking agreements. They have chosen to value other things in the relationship, as may the cheater except that they still need that intimacy once in a while.

And while two wrongs don't make a right, it can be the release of the pressure valve needed to maintain the other parts of the relationship that are working.

One thing broken doesn't mean all things broken.

 

[Vicki82]

If cheater's SO is withholding some form of intimacy that previously existed in the relationship, they are already breaking agreements. They have chosen to value other things in the relationship, as may the cheater except that they still need that intimacy once in a while.

And while two wrongs don't make a right, it can be the release of the pressure valve needed to maintain the other parts of the relationship that are working.

One thing broken doesn't mean all things broken.

I just really don't see that as relevant. Yes, the cheater's partner is breaking agreements. Obviously the putative cheater has decided that the rest of the relationship is worth more than ending things. They find value in the rest of the relationship.

But that doesn't excuse violating your partner's trust and consent. It's inherently a selfish decision to preserve the things they do find valuable. It is equally as wrong to make a unilateral decision to get needs met elsewhere without partner's consent as it is to deny that intimacy without partner's consent.

And you don't see how horribly wrong and dysfunctional this is, how these hypothetical partners are treating each other? How can you excuse the cheater's behaviour as being the victim here without acknowledging that they are victimizing their partner as well?

A relationship is not always going to meet all of your needs. That's life. Once again- having only lousy choices to choose from doesn't mean that there won't be consequences for making one of those choices. The difference is that one option is being honest with your partner, and one is selfishly seeking to preserve what they do value in the relationship without partner's consent.

 

[Evie]

Yes it's dysfunctional, I never said it wasn't. But that dysfunction has to be considered a two way street if the cheating is because one partner is withholding intimacy.

And I just don't think cheating is a deal breaker in 100% of cases.

What's more dysfunctional is the partner who has shut off the intimacy then not being prepared to discuss the options.

 

[Vicki82]

Once you start scorekeeping, I think things are already on their way to over. It should not be, my partner is doing this bad thing so I'll do this bad thing.

I also don't think you can judge one bad behaviour as worse than the other, in this case. At very best, they're equally wrong- and at least the person choosing not to engage in sex had the honesty to tell their partner that.

The lying, deception, breaking of trust, and unilateral violation of consent are all dealbreakers to me. But I feel like I've been very clear about what I believe. Having bad choices available doesn't excuse consent violations, in my opinion. Because once again- if a person isn't happy that their spouse isn't interested in physical intimacy, they are still choosing to be there. You don't get to selfishly try to preserve what you want, knowing that your partner would end the relationship if you were honest- to try and get your other needs met without their consent. That's just not okay.

 

[GalaGirl]

While I still find that behavior unethical, that explanation makes sense

Glad it helps some.

I just don't think that your partner's consent and trust should be the thing to go under the bus when you have crappy choices. I think that says a lot about the cheater as a person and how they prioritize themselves over their partner.

I agree. Getting thrown under the bus would suck. But that's how it works with some people. So long as life is going mostly ok for them? They will stand by you. But if it ever comes down to the wire and push comes to shove? Prepare to be pushed under the bus. Because their personal comfort comes first above all else. They are “fair weather friends” type people. They can be very charming, and enjoyable to date. But for reliable and steadfast through thick and thin? Not just in fair weather? Seek elsewhere.

If cheater's SO is withholding some form of intimacy that previously existed in the relationship, they are already breaking agreements. They have chosen to value other things in the relationship, as may the cheater except that they still need that intimacy once in a while.

And while two wrongs don't make a right, it can be the release of the pressure valve needed to maintain the other parts of the relationship that are working.

One thing broken doesn't mean all things broken.

Let's call the hypothetical couple Fred and Wilma Flintstone. Wilma doesn't want sex any more with Fred and tells him that.

If Wilma is all “I don't want sex with you. But if you cheat, you suck. And I'm taking it all!” Like she made a decision for herself which affects the couple and expects Fred to just lump it?

That's crap treatment of Fred. He might feel like he's being held hostage. His world turned upside down from nowhere.

Fred may value his "my personal comfort" pretty high. He may value "being married" high too. And he may value "continued access to all the other things Wilma still provides."

So yeah. He might choose to go along with that New Deal in actuality or only on the surface.

• In actuality -- Fred might sigh a big sigh and choose to give up partnered sex life. And masturbate to take the edge off or get into porn or whatever. And keep on being married to Wilma in a sexless marriage in order to enjoy continued access to the goods and services she still provides him.

• In words only -- Fred chooses to say "Ok, Wilma. Whatever you say." And then in secret? Fred chooses to cheat and seek lovers elsewhere while keeping Wilma in the dark. He maintains the ILLUSION of monogamy so Fred retains continued access the other goods and services Wilma still provides him. And he gets sex on the side from the outside partner(s) which enables him to endure a sexless marriage with Wilma.

Do I think Fred is Wilma's victim? Kinda yes. Kinda no.

• He can choose to not deal in this New Deal.
• He can choose to stay while keeping the new agreement.
• He can choose to stay while NOT keeping the new agreement.

Up to him how he wants to participate/not participate.

Do I think it's a healthy relationship if Wilma goes around dictating things? And Fred goes around sneaking? No.

Is it is something I want for myself as a solution if I were in those shoes? No. I rather solve it by walking. Thanks for the New Deal offer, Wilma. I respectfully decline. Let's part ways. I might miss some of the goods and services Wilma used to provide me when I was married to her. But I can get the goods and services I liked in other ways elsewhere.

It's a PITA to rearrange my life at this age -- divorce, get a flat, detangle, etc. But I recognize though that I DO have that PITA option at my disposal. If one has become their spouse's dependent and has no income of their own? Then they might choose to stick it out rather than walk because it's a much harder walk than it would be for me. If Fred is Wilma's dependent and she makes a decision like that? She's got him over a barrel. So kinda victim. But also, c'mon Fred. You are responsible for your own emergency preparedness. So kinda no.

But yes... that is ANOTHER reason for how some people arrive at cheating as a choice. When "the Wilma" partner no longer wants to share sex with "the Fred" one. And the Fred one wants to have continued access to the other goods and services still provided by Wilma. Cheating enables him to endure a sexless marriage by offering him sex on the side.

But I can't see this as anything other than a selfish act, like Gala put it- designed to maintain access to a family/relationship that they might not get to have access to if their partner discovered their choices.

Well... I could also see illness reasons. And I don't know that I'd call it selfish.

I watch my Mom deal with my Alzheimer father. He cannot remember and figure out his grandkids. He is currently mixing up his kids. When he can no longer remember his wife... if he takes up with some nursing home neighbor? Is that cheating on his marriage? Well, yeah. He's married. But no, cuz his brain just isn't here like before. We've been watching it leave in stages for years now. Could Dad be held accountable to a marriage vow he made years ago to a woman he doesn't know any more?

If mom wants to take up with a sweetie on the side while being my dad's caregiver? Is she cheating on her marriage? Well, yeah. She's married. But no. Cuz Dad's brain isn't all here and continues to leave some more. Can Mom be held accountable to a marriage vow she made years ago to a guy who might not even recognize her now?

I don't think I would call either my dad or mom "selfish" if they decided to go there. To me? They have already arrived at "til death to us part." Not physical death yet. But with my dad's barmy? His brain is not really here like it used to be. He is just not ABLE to uphold his vows like before. I think it lets both of them off the hook. Like... yes. It is cheating on their original marriage agreement. But how much of that original agreement is there left now? And it's not like Mom could suggest updating or renegotiating agreements with Dad. He can't even figure out what he wants for lunch without a picture menu. He is losing his letters and ability to READ. Who is gonna bother an old man with stuff like that?

What about access to the goods and services? Well, they both still keep them even if they do cheat.

If Dad has a side sweetie -- does that mean my mom would quit providing goods and services? Nope. She's loyal and she knows he's barmy. She'd forgive him and keep on keeping on.

If Mom had a side sweetie -- does that mean my dad would quit providing goods and services? Nope. He's barmy. He sometimes doesn't know Tuesday, where he left his glasses, or what bills got paid or not. He'd continue to provide his wonky goods/services he provides mom. Sometimes completing the chores ok and sometimes just leaving the laundry half folded on the couch because he wandered off somewhere. Not exactly great goods and services, but he tries, and she knows he's wonky.

Weird grey area, right? When it's an outlier case like that? Yet there it is. Illness could be another reason some people arrive at cheating as a choice.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

There are other reasons for cheating that aren't caused by one partner withholding intimacy and the other one needing it and seeking it elsewhere.

Sometimes NRE ends and both partners lose their desire for their partner to a greater or lesser degree. They get in that mono rut. Maybe they try to "spice things up." Maybe that didn't work very well.

As poly people, we get that fun wonderful exciting variety. But poly is hard. It is new. I'm not saying polyamory or swinging isn't on a morally higher ground than cheating. I'm not excusing cheaters. I'm explaining why cheating has always, since patriarchal marriage was invented, been with us.

So, for thousands of years, people who lost desire mutually, for each other (because people are meant to be promiscuous) have cheated. Even people who still desire each other may cheat, because they deeply desire variety, and some hottie comes along they just don't want to resist.

Many people today, who are cheaters, are (oddly perhaps) shocked at polyamory. Swinging has been around much longer, but people are still shocked at that.

So, maybe both partners in an outwardly mono relationship are cheating, on and off. They still get the "goods and services" of a 2 partner relationship that they both value. House, status and approval, companionship, 2 sets of grandparents, cousins, sisters in law, shared childcare and housework, stability for kids, less complicated holidays, sharing income for rent, food, cars, etc., etc.

Maybe they can't quite wrap their heads around polyamory, yet. Maybe they've never heard of it! But they don't have one thing, fully satisfying sex or intimacy. So they get it elsewhere. It's no different than having another friend who likes something you like but your partner doesn't. Like shopping, hiking, dogs, cooking, doll collecting... As poly people we don't expect any one partner or friend to fulfill all our needs. It's unrealistic. So is 100% sexual compatibility, from age 25-80. Yet we don't feel a need to dump a great partner just because they don't like rom coms and we do. We find another friend to watch rom coms with. Yeah yeah, we could watch rom coms alone, but it's much more fun with a friend. Or two.

So, maybe in 20 years, 30 years, more or most people will have heard of polyamory, how it works, and it will be a good accepted option. Just like divorce. It took about 70 years last century, for divorce to catch on and become rather a commonplace. In 1900 it was a horrible scandal. Nowadays it's as common as dirt.

 

[dingedheart]

Violating safe sex agreements can have physical ramifications. Gambling away the rent money has economical ramifications, not the least of which is losing your place to live. Cheating on a spouse has no real physical ramifications, other than how the spouse reacts.

You realize that it wasn’t just the one case where the cheating was discovered on HOUSE ( medical tv show for those unfamiliar). Never happens in real life right? So the standard is physical ramifications ? Wow good luck with that!

My first wife cheated on me. I didn't die from it. Looking back, it shouldn't have been a big deal. I was mostly pissed because I had turned down many chances to cheat. So I made a big deal of it.

So you were mainly upset at upholding your own integrity? Or all the great opportunities missed ??

 

[dingedheart]

I'd say that most people don't outright agree to that, they go along with that. It's usually not clear at all between partners what exactly constitutes cheating. Most people adopt the assumed position, which is monogamy and "forsaking all others." I don't know any couples other than open relationship couples who sit down and draw out agreements about the parameters of the relationship. Most people just have a general idea that they're supposed to stick to the agreement of fidelity - the particulars to be figured out as problems arise - which is a bassackwards way to do it, but that's how most people do it. I don't know one monogamous couple that ever sat down and drew out specific behavior agreements at the outset of the relationship and then signed the figurative contract. Poly people are the only people I know who draw up such specific agreements.

Therefor, when it comes to cheating, there's lots of wiggle room. How many times have we heard it said, "We didn't mean to, it just happened!"? With cheating, often times there's a general malaise or dissatisfaction or boredom about the nesting relationship and then things with another just snowball. I don't see that many people set out on a cheating relationship with much thought about agreements other than the awareness that you're not supposed to cheat. What that specifically means is something you usually find out after you've stepped on a few trip wires.

Couple of things:
Entering into this discussion I took the very broad and general view of cheating to be penis being put into another person., etc ... And then stretching that even further to emotional affairs and cyber sex.

Secondly I do remember this subject being broached in a pre marriage class. Not sure now how it came up. If it was a topic put forth by the pastor or it was something my wife said was her big fear. But in a room full of people it was discussed.

How long did it take in your marriage to know what cheating was ?? Or did you more or less know from the on set ?? Any unusual things that were discovered way down the road ?

 

[Magdlyn]

Couple of things:

Entering into this discussion I took the very broad and general view of cheating to be a penis being put into another person, etc.; then stretching that even further to emotional affairs and cyber sex.

Don't forget to also check your heteronormative expectations. There may be no penises involved at all.

How long did it take in your marriage to know what cheating was? Or did you more or less know from the onset? Any unusual things that were discovered way down the road?

I'm not sure if you're just asking Karen, or the group in general. My experience: At age 19, I hooked up with a jealous man with low self esteem. Having been brainwashed into thinking his possessiveness was a sign of love, and that I should be flattered, I didn't mind it terribly at first. His idea of cheating was very broad, because he didn't feel he really deserved me (or love from anyone), and he was very afraid of losing me.

So, he got jealous if I talked to another man "too long." Or talked about a vaguely sexual subject with another man. Or wandered off at a party, making him unable to find me for 10 minutes. Or if he viewed me in a "too long" hug with another guy when greeting him at a social event; or dancing with some other guy at a party or wedding or club, unless he could view me the whole time to make sure the dancing wasn't too... sexy, I guess. If it was, in his opinion, too sexy, I might get shit for it for a long time, when he'd "carpetbag" during a discussion of our relationship.

When we were first dating and then married, we lived in cities. Finally, 10 years in, we got a house in the suburbs and he admitted years later that one reason he was happy we chose a fairly isolated suburb was that there were less men around who would have access to me!

So, I never had sex with another guy. I never even kissed one. But in my ex's mind, I was basically cheating on him all along, just by merely interacting with men. So, I was entirely unable to be honest with him about things, intimacy things, or whatever, since I got shit for the smallest infraction on his "cheating meter."

I put up with this for a long time because when he wasn't being all jealous, he often treated me very well. He was very generous. He was a people pleaser too.

 

[FallenAngelina]

it was something my wife said was her big fear. But in a room full of people it was discussed.

I'm curious exactly what was discussed. Everyone more or less agrees that cheating is off limits and it's a biggest fear for many. But did you discuss particulars? Hugs that last too long? Flirting? Late night phone calls? Was lip kissing the line? Tongue kissing? How about hand holding? Hand touching? Meeting up at the grocery store? A lot of men find out the hard way that even looking at porn is cheating, according to their spouses.

Every mono couple more or less makes the "agreement" that cheating is off the table and some people go so far as to explain that it's their greatest fear. But WTF is cheating, exactly? And who lays out all of the parameters ahead of time? What is the specific agreement? I maintain that pretty much nobody lays out the cheating ground rules ahead of time, other than to issue the warning: Just Don't Do It!

 

[vinsanity0]

So you were mainly upset at upholding your own integrity? Or all the great opportunities missed ??

Both. I was being monogamous because that was the socially acceptable thing to do. It required great effort on my part. Naturally, I was upset that it was all for nothing. But I was young, under thirty.

 

[Vicki82]

How long did it take in your marriage to know what cheating was ??

Cheating isn't a specific act, necessarily. I mean, there are some things that the vast majority of people would consider cheating, and then it's a Bell curve from there as to what people believe is cheating.

Personally? I think cheating is the intentional violation of (any) agreements made with your partner, with again, a spectrum of severity.

Well... I could also see illness reasons. And I don't know that I'd call it selfish.

I watch my Mom deal with my Alzheimer father. He cannot remember and figure out his grandkids. He is currently mixing up his kids. When he can no longer remember his wife... if he takes up with some nursing home neighbor? Is that cheating on his marriage? Well, yeah. He's married. But no, cuz his brain just isn't here like before. We've been watching it leave in stages for years now. Could Dad be held accountable to a marriage vow he made years ago to a woman he doesn't know any more?

If mom wants to take up with a sweetie on the side while being my dad's caregiver? Is she cheating on her marriage? Well, yeah. She's married. But no. Cuz Dad's brain isn't all here and continues to leave some more. Can Mom be held accountable to a marriage vow she made years ago to a guy who might not even recognize her now?

I don't think I would call either my dad or mom "selfish" if they decided to go there. To me? They have already arrived at "til death to us part." Not physical death yet. But with my dad's barmy? His brain is not really here like it used to be. He is just not ABLE to uphold his vows like before. I think it lets both of them off the hook. Like... yes. It is cheating on their original marriage agreement. But how much of that original agreement is there left now? And it's not like Mom could suggest updating or renegotiating agreements with Dad. He can't even figure out what he wants for lunch without a picture menu. He is losing his letters and ability to READ. Who is gonna bother an old man with stuff like that?

As to this... I think it still fits in perfectly with what I am saying. If a partner is unable to give informed consent, then as far as I'm concerned, there is no longer an adult relationship there. It's like being a caregiver for a child.

The child may misbehave because he doesn't have the mental capacity always to make good decisions. The parent doesn't ask the child to make adult decisions because the child no longer has that capability. It's similar to cases where a person has diminished cognitive capacity, and there is decision making as to whether a person can legally even consent to sex at all.

So to me, this is still revolving around the issue of informed consent.

 

[dingedheart]

Don't forget to also check your heteronormative expectations. There may be no penises involved at all.

It’s not really my heteronormative expectations as much as hetero experiences and exposure. I know and use frequently this lesbian electrician/ electrical contractor but we rarely talk much about personal stuff so I don’t really know how much cheating goes on in that world. NOW on the other hand the gay designers and architects and several gay clients I’ve dealt with seem forever to be dealing with cheating issues.

I'm not sure if you're just asking Karen, or the group in general. My experience: At age 19, I hooked up with a jealous man with low self esteem. Having been brainwashed into thinking his possessiveness was a sign of love, and that I should be flattered, I didn't mind it terribly at first. His idea of cheating was very broad, because he didn't feel he really deserved me (or love from anyone), and he was very afraid of losing me.

Who and how did that happen.??? You’re the last person I’d think could be brainwashed.

So, he got jealous if I talked to another man "too long." Or talked about a vaguely sexual subject with another man. Or wandered off at a party, making him unable to find me for 10 minutes. Or if he viewed me in a "too long" hug with another guy when greeting him at a social event; or dancing with some other guy at a party or wedding or club, unless he could view me the whole time to make sure the dancing wasn't too... sexy, I guess. If it was, in his opinion, too sexy, I might get shit for it for a long time, when he'd "carpetbag" during a discussion of our relationship.

When we were first dating and then married, we lived in cities. Finally, 10 years in, we got a house in the suburbs and he admitted years later that one reason he was happy we chose a fairly isolated suburb was that there were less men around who would have access to me!

So, I never had sex with another guy. I never even kissed one. But in my ex's mind, I was basically cheating on him all along, just by merely interacting with men. So, I was entirely unable to be honest with him about things, intimacy things, or whatever, since I got shit for the smallest infraction on his "cheating meter."

I put up with this for a long time because when he wasn't being all jealous, he often treated me very well. He was very generous. He was a people pleaser too.

How many yrs were you married to him ?? You met at 19 and how long did you date prior to saying I do ???

And question question is or was how long did it take either while dating ( pre marriage ) or how long after the honeymoon did you discover all these so called cheating offenses?

Because in my head a jealous possessive person doesn’t really mask that shit during the dating process. They’re either telling you directly when you misstep or they’re off being passive aggressive and pouting, etc.

 

[dingedheart]

I'm curious exactly what was discussed. Everyone more or less agrees that cheating is off limits and it's a biggest fear for many. But did you discuss particulars? Hugs that last too long? Flirting? Late night phone calls? Was lip kissing the line? Tongue kissing? How about hand holding? Hand touching? Meeting up at the grocery store? A lot of men find out the hard way that even looking at porn is cheating, according to their spouses.

From what I recall now was hand outs and on it was a list of usual trouble spots that happen or get raised in the first yr or 2 and and how things can snowball if those conflicts aren’t directly dealt with. Things like money, household chores and division of labor, children, family...too much family. Then I think there was some hypothetical crisis questions. What if you spouse was fired from his job and was pretending to go to work? What if you caught you husband in bed with your best friend, etc etc etc.

Expectations change once married and things are viewed differently by some people and his point was to discuss as much of those things prior to getting married to make sure you’re still compatible. And the other main point was listen what you’re being told and don’t think you can change somebody’s mind later. If he wants kids and she doesn’t and that’s a big deal to him STOP NOW, etc.

[/QUOTE]
Every mono couple more or less makes the "agreement" that cheating is off the table and some people go so far as to explain that it's their greatest fear. But WTF is cheating, exactly? And who lays out all of the parameters ahead of time? What is the specific agreement? I maintain that pretty much nobody lays out the cheating ground rules ahead of time, other than to issue the warning: Just Don't Do It![/QUOTE]

And that was the case with me as well. There wasn’t an in-depth list of does or don’t. However I would say things that would have got me in trouble would have been things viewed out of character for me and also those things being more intimate. Tonsil hockey and even holding hands would have been a flag because that’s not something I’d do with anyone.