Still learning to ride the wave

hm... i have never needed this forum more!!!1!!! so comments and advice are definitely welcome. some new changes are coming.... maybe in a few months, but probably not sooner than that. Just conversations now.

Joe and I are still mulling through some feelings, it seems.
He said and did a lot of hurtful shit when P and I started dating (almost 2 years ago, the hurtful words went on for about a year though), and now that Joe had his first physical thing with someone outside of our marriage (see above, they kissed... due to the circumstances of Joe acting before talking and some other boundaries being crossed, I'm also having to repair my trust in him currently).
It's bringing up a lot of pain for me.... initially I was cool with it, but I got in my head and starting thinking of all the things Joe said to me when P and I started dating...
I have to be the bigger person here and learn from our mistakes. I have to NOT repeat those same behaviors of slut shaming, guilting, tearing down that Joe did. I forgave him for that (even if it still hurts a bit, and my self esteem is still recovering). He apologized profusely. I understand where he was at; we were monogamous when I fell in love with P, he felt betrayed by me developing feelings for someone else. It didn't matter how honest I was, how long I waited, etc.
It's still hard to let go, though, when I feel he is going to put me through the same thing... or something similar, at least.
The animal side of me knows that I have every right to get in his ass, to make him feel how I did.
And the human side loves him very much and just wants him to be happy. I also understand his argument of "I want to be closer with you, and understand how you can love me and be with another person, too". I can get behind that... well, now I can. initially it sounded like bullshit.

He said he wants me to be involved if he does open up his side of things. Like, me also dating this hypothetical female and being physically involved with them. Also that he wouldn't be looking for any kind of long term partner, just a fun friend it seems. I can get behind that.
I don't know how I feel about group sex though... when P and I started dating, I had many fantasies about MMF threesomes. Who wouldn't want two dicks in their mouth (lol)
but that was a boundary for Joe. Understandable. Am I down to spice up Joe's (and my) sex life? Fulfill his fantasies? I have been with one other woman. It was... meh. But I don't think she was my type. I'm thinking brunette, thicc, smart (oops am I describing myself?)
In my opinion, an ideal situation he would do all the romantic heavy lifting (3 relationships??!?!?! Idk about all that), and I could just swoop in for sexy stuff once in awhile. I know people don't come ready made like that though, and I have read enough scary shit about unicorn hunting.
Joe had been telling me for awhile that he might eventually be with someone else, so while this seems like a lot right now due to some other life shit going on, it's not a huge surprise that we're talking about it.

And what does this mean for P and I? Nothing, it seems. He has stuck to his story of wanting me and only me (for now, I'll add, since I know everything can change). The stuff with Joe did spark a conversation about P and I's relationship in the future. Joe wants to have a family with me, and doesn't think an open relationship is conducive to that, but since P and I are in a committed (and stable now, definitely stable if it lasts into the future) relationship, I wanted to know where Joe saw P in all of this. Joe says he doesn't want to "have a cult raising a family" and our kids being bullied as a result, but fine with P being around; fuzzy on logistics. hm... P sees himself as being present. He has said he would love to help raise my kid with Joe. I had a dream the other night about me, Joe and P taking care of a child of mine (didn't really register which of them was the dad in the dream). I also have a dog that they both love soooo much and we all take care of, so I think that's why the one big happy family vibe is so stuck in my head. I know a kid isn't a dog. But... yeah idk
So, it seems Joe and I's ideals don't align. But, seeing as both Joe and P want to transition from living together to separate homes close to each other, maybe having separate but close families is a possibility.
The only thing I have ever not told Joe is that I have thought about having a kid with P someday. But ... he's not ready, I'm not sure I even want to have kids in this crazy world, and that would be years in the future. Just trying to get my PhD first. Sorry if withholding that info seems like a red flag to some.

I'm waxing in between excitement for a potential love interest (for Joe, or potentially both of us) to anxiety (what will she be like? what if P also wants to open his side up and I'm hit with everything all at once?) to literal world ending unreal scenarios (THEY WILL BOTH LEAVE ME?!?!?!?!? that one always crops up when big changes occur lol)

For the immediate moment, the mystery woman is hypothetical. Thank god, because the woman Joe kissed was.... ew tbh. Mostly on the inside. He's apologized for his bad taste haha. Clearly I'm still wrapping my head around that one.

P has been very nice lately.... he said he feels as if he's "rediscovered our love"... lots of compliments and back rubs. I underestimated how nice it would be to have someone else to talk to about jealousy feels. He described yesterday, that he realized this past week (again, with some life stuff we went through) that he feels like I'm there for him as much as his own family is. That + him screening interactions between his sister and I (per my request) makes me feel like he's really taking shit seriously. And that's an awesome feeling. I definitely went 0-100 with him pretty quickly commitment-wise, mostly because I was risking the most important relationship and first healthy romantic relationship in my life (with Joe) to have one with P. I think both of us are only just now learning to trust each other to the nth degree.

Eerfghhh lots of feelings in this one. Some good, some not so good. Hoping to sort through the not so good in the near future.
 
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Since you wanted feedback....

Joe and I set some boundaries last week about him interacting with other females. As in, don't make things physical before we have a conversation, and to have more intention; i.e. don't act if that person is not understanding of our relationship and okay with nonmonogamy. that was already in place, but he shared a drunk kiss with some girl i work with.

Since you, J, and P are now in a poly V, isn't it already open on all sides? Where all of you can see other people? If not...

What other conversation is missing that you still have to have about him being physical with people? So it can get to "Ok, it's open for you to date. Don't date my messy people list. I won't date yours. I expect labs, condoms. and safer sex practices will be used. I expect we check in about any new people before we share sex together."

Then all have space to be spontaneous while still keeping the condom contract. It doesn't take long to ask/tell "Since the last time we shared sex have there been new people? Were condoms/safer sex practices used?" so you can give continued consent from a place of full info.

"Coworkers" might be on the messy people list. There's enough people to date without going for messy ones.

And wassup with hitting on people while drunk? Ew.

Is that what you mean about more conversations needed?

The animal side of me knows that I have every right to get in his ass, to make him feel how I did.

No, you don't have the right to treat people poorly. Where did you get this idea?

You do not have to choose to behave like a jerk today just because he was behaving poorly 2 years ago.

And the human side loves him very much and just wants him to be happy. I also understand his argument of "I want to be closer with you, and understand how you can love me and be with another person, too". I can get behind that... well, now I can. initially it sounded like bullshit.

Well, yeah. It sucks to have gone first, received a rain of fury, and now when the shoe is on the other foot? J's all like "Ohhhh... I get it now."

And J gets better treatment and greater understanding from you than he was able give you 2 years ago. You are two different people. His meta skills back then were poor. Your meta skills today are better than that.

So what's the goal here? Play tit for tat games like "get even" revenge GRRR?

Or be in right relationship and everyone do the best they are able to do with where their skills are at TODAY?

He said he wants me to be involved if he does open up his side of things. Like, me also dating this hypothetical female and being physically involved with them.

You could say "No, thank you. Not interested in triad models." Just the V with you, J, and P was turbulence enough. 2 v's stacked up.

Why jump into 3 V's stacked up in a triad situation?

Group sex is not a requirement for open or poly.

Also that he wouldn't be looking for any kind of long term partner, just a fun friend it seems.

If he likes FWB? Fine. Up to him what he wants for dating partners.

Joe had been telling me for awhile that he might eventually be with someone else, so while this seems like a lot right now due to some other life shit going on, it's not a huge surprise that we're talking about it.

This change to J starting to date is enough isn't it? Esp when you have other stuff going on?

Why on earth pile on group sex or trying to triad on top of it?

Some things like a blizzard of hurricane happening? That you cannot control.

How much you get yourself involved in when? That you CAN control.

You seem to want to enjoy the closer connection with P and minimize turbulence with J as he starts dating also.

So do that.

And if you haven't already? Do talk about what happens if both P and J break up with you and everyone ends up single. What's the plan then? So you can relax about it. Like emergency plan is made, hopefully never need it. Rather than have it come to pass and everyone wigs out.

You are responsible for your own emergency preparedness.

You are responsible for your own well being.

If you tend towards anxiety? You do your anxiety management and MINIMIZE stressors, not pile them on.
 
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It's not too hard to keep my relationships separate when I'm feeling good, but when I get stressed I resort to some codependency bullshit with Joe, and he reciprocates by brainstorming to fix my problems and taking them on as his own. It's not good for either of us.

I just wanna say I relate to this shortcoming! I also grew up raised by parents that sound a lot like yours, and while it's easy enough to have good boundaries when I'm feeling good, when I'm low I do find myself wanting to reach for my partner for emotional things they can't give me. I have a bunch of other practices to reach for to have my needs met when I feel like this--sounds like you do, too--but yeah, the habit of reaching towards a partner first is super engrained. Thanks for sharing, been enjoying reading along <3
 
Since you, J, and P are now in a poly V, isn't it already open on all sides? Where all of you can see other people? If not...
define "open on all sides.." I asked Joe about this, but he's not okay with me kissing/dating other men besides P. So not open? I'm committed to both of them and that's it? I asked him if he would have been okay with me doing what he did in this situation, and he said no. So.... yeah. I know there isn't a formula to polyamory, but should reciprocity be a part of that?
"Coworkers" might be on the messy people list. There's enough people to date without going for messy ones.

And wassup with hitting on people while drunk? Ew.

Is that what you mean about more conversations needed?
Yes. We had several agreements in place; no one I work with (because I don't tell my coworkers im poly and he definitely wouldn't want me doing anything with his coworkers), no one we can't have an exit strategy from (i.e. close friends, mutual friends, close friends of people we live with), and no acting before talking. period. He broke all of those agreements in one night. We also had something in place for doing stuff in our house, and it feels like he treated our home like a bar to pick people up at, which is part of why this felt icky for me. I'd rather he just... actually go to a bar if that's what he's on lol
No, you don't have the right to treat people poorly. Where did you get this idea?

You do not have to choose to behave like a jerk today just because he was behaving poorly 2 years ago.
Yeah, that's kinda the point. I am not acting like he did, but I am pretty angry at how this was handled. I made it easy for him to seek out dates and do things conscientiously and responsibly (i.e. encouraged him dating women who were interested in him, he just didn't end up being interested in them back). It's doubly shitty that this person isn't important; he didn't know her name the next day and lost interest in going on a date with her after 24 hours had passed. I almost would have been happier with this if he did go on a date with her, then it wouldn't seem like a pointless mistake. Imo, she is boring and not attractive (I promise I say this without anger in my heart.. I just think Joe deserves better). If his bar is this low, then who/where/when is off limits?
Well, yeah. It sucks to have gone first, received a rain of fury, and now when the shoe is on the other foot? J's all like "Ohhhh... I get it now."
And J gets better treatment and greater understanding from you than he was able give you 2 years ago. You are two different people. His meta skills back then were poor. Your meta skills today are better than that.
He keeps saying the whole point of him wanting to see other people is to "become closer with" and "understand" me more. When I mention that he should look into poly resources and do things with intention; i.e. get on dating sites or talk to other poly circles so he can actually meet poly people, he says "I'm not poly". Idk it feels judgey, like this is my life but .... if you're not poly, then kissing/groping other people is .. cheating? Wish he would just embrace the shit. I feel like he really doesn't understand. There is no "I get it now" moment. He also says he doesn't want to do anything like this if we have a family or just in general doesn't want to do shit like this when we're older. Like... I'm not just figuring shit out because I'm young. I genuinely want to be with both of these humans.
When Joe asked me what I wanted 2 years ago, even though I hadn't done anything physical with P yet, I answered "I want to be with both you and P." I just wish he could give me that simple of an answer as to what he wants. Maybe that's too much to expect this early... but I didn't have to actually be with someone to know what I wanted ahead of time. I know our situations aren't going to be identical.
Why jump into 3 V's stacked up in a triad situation?

Group sex is not a requirement for open or poly.
I know this. Hence why I never pushed it on P and Joe. I am open to the prospect of being with another woman, and I don't think Joe and I would have any problems finding that situation (we've actually been offered this a few times before when we were mono). Right now, because of the circumstances, I'm just kinda miffed with him and feeling like "Why should I do this for him?" so clearly not ready for something like this until the betrayed feeling goes away.
If he likes FWB? Fine. Up to him what he wants for dating partners.
Yeah. I just kinda wish he would go on a work assignment away from me and do his thing/act single for a bit. Like, to figure out what it is he wants. I just want him to be happy with whatever he decides. I know there will be some mistakes, but I want to minimize them. I don't want to be figuring this out 'with' him, but we are so close that I think that's what he had in mind. Again, like it's an assignment we both need to tackle together and I'm over here like... I'm good the way things are lol why would I be putting in work rn? It's not enough that I took time to set boundaries for you to follow on your own poly journey...?
This change to J starting to date is enough isn't it? Esp when you have other stuff going on?

Why on earth pile on group sex or trying to triad on top of it?
I think this is along the vein of Joe wanting to feel "closer" with me... like he proposed it, and I think it's a way of making this something for both of us, as opposed to something just for him. He also says he wants to do it because I'm doing it, to make things even, but I have been trying to explain to him that it will literally never be 'even' because our situations will be inherently different. He just has always said he's not an FWB kind of person. Even when he was single. I think after seeing him have so little control I'm questioning a lot about his personality; just learning to trust again. I know I'm supposed to be cool with him seeing other people, but hooking up with randos (esp in our house, while I'm there but not participating) is never something I have even remotely been interested in, and something he said he would never do. I just feel like his first real foray into poly stuff felt more like cheating/mistakes than a conscious decision, and I'm really hoping this is not the precedent. I know some people are into completely open things, but there are some spaces and times in which I want to just feel like we're all just enjoying each other's company and not like anyone is looking for a romantic interest. To me, there is a big difference between being poly and acting single. It doesn't help that this female was very much in the nonethical monogamy mindset; i.e. she was interested up until the point that she found out Joe wasn't trying to cheat on me. I told Joe that there are people out there that normalize cheating more than polyamory, and that that's the whole point of communicating before doing anything. I just would rather him take that shit elsewhere if he's going to find people "in the wild" because he feels he is above dating apps and planning things out, similar to how P and I have kept our interactions out of sight, out of mind for him.
You seem to want to enjoy the closer connection with P and minimize turbulence with J as he starts dating also.
I do. I am enjoying how well everything is going with him and I; shit just seems stable and like we've reached a set point and are both really happy. I have been able to really grow into our relationship and trust that he's taking us seriously.... and just not really care what everyone else's opinion is.
Joe has said he isn't interested in being with anyone until he feels we're good. So no pressure right now which is cool.
And if you haven't already? Do talk about what happens if both P and J break up with you and everyone ends up single. What's the plan then? So you can relax about it. Like emergency plan is made, hopefully never need it. Rather than have it come to pass and everyone wigs out.
They're not leaving lol. This is just my anxiety talking. We're all financially independent, so the answer to what would happen is p simple.
Yes, it's my responsibility to take care of myself. I had planned on going to my cousins wedding with Joe, but asked him not to come with so I could focus on seeing family and spending the 12 hr drive just jamming out in my new car, not having to answer to other people's desires and biases. I need space from my relationships for a few days, so this is a good chance to do that.
 
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define "open on all sides.." I asked Joe about this, but he's not okay with me kissing/dating other men besides P. So not open? I'm committed to both of them and that's it? I asked him if he would have been okay with me doing what he did in this situation, and he said no. So.... yeah. I know there isn't a formula to polyamory, but should reciprocity be a part of that?

People are free to arrange themselves as they wish.

But to me? Joe expecting you to be polyfidelitous or "closed" to just him and P while he goes off dating on his side? That's not cool. It's different if all have the option to date others and YOU don't feel like using the option on your side. Him saying what you can and cannot do? In those shoes, I would bristle.

He broke all of those agreements in one night. We also had something in place for doing stuff in our house, and it feels like he treated our home like a bar to pick people up at, which is part of why this felt icky for me. I'd rather he just... actually go to a bar if that's what he's on lol

I would not care for any of that either.

If he is going to get drunk, be home. If he's wanting to date, date responsibly. Don't go get drunk and then start doing foolish things breaking agreements willy nilly. That is not the way to build trust with new people or keep it with established people.

He keeps saying the whole point of him wanting to see other people is to "become closer with" and "understand" me more. When I mention that he should look into poly resources and do things with intention; i.e. get on dating sites or talk to other poly circles so he can actually meet poly people, he says "I'm not poly".

So he wants open or ENM on his side? Not sure how doing that would help him understand poly. Because that's open/ENM.

And if he's behaving this way it is sloppy. Not ethical non-monogamy.

He also says he doesn't want to do anything like this if we have a family or just in general doesn't want to do shit like this when we're older.

Well, you are all young adult 20s people. If he's not going to be a life poly partner for you because he's "doing this for now, but don't want it later?" You have time to figure that out.

I don't want to be figuring this out 'with' him, but we are so close that I think that's what he had in mind. Again, like it's an assignment we both need to tackle together and I'm over here like... I'm good the way things are lol why would I be putting in work rn? It's not enough that I took time to set boundaries for you to follow on your own poly journey...?

You can set mental and emotional boundaries. You don't have to be the endless fountain of emotional labor for partners.

You can say "I see you want me to figure this all out with you. No, thank you. I don't have the bandwidth for this and I cannot be impartial when I am IN the system. I suggest you talk to a counselor instead."

He also says he wants to do it because I'm doing it, to make things even

Why is he in competition with you? Why this need to do tit-for-tat?

I know some people are into completely open things, but there are some spaces and times in which I want to just feel like we're all just enjoying each other's company and not like anyone is looking for a romantic interest.

I get that. At some events, you are on a date. The attention is on each other. At other events, it is not a date. Each could be looking to make new connections.

To me, there is a big difference between being poly and acting single.

Yup. If you are partnered, you are not a footloose, fancy free single who can behave like a free agent. If you have chosen to make agreements with people? You have to hold them up. If you changed your mind? You have to say "I have changed my mind. I need to renegotiate agreements" or "I changed my mind. I will no longer be keeping this agreement." The person might be disappointed hearing it, but then you aren't cheating on agreements.

I need space from my relationships for a few days, so this is a good chance to do that.

Yes. Enjoy the family wedding!
 
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Not many updates. Yoga teacher training is going well! I am 100% sure I want to be a teacher, and have started talking to gyms around me for teaching positions. Research is going well. I am reaching a major checkpoint right before holiday break, which feels good.
Our roommate is out of town until the new year, and it's been really cool living with Joe and P just the three of us. I have been enjoying the space staying clean and the extra freedom :)
 
I am really appreciative of all the lessons I learned the past couple years of my life, and excited for the new year. I know it's really just an illusion of newness since Jan 1st isn't really that different than Dec 31st, but if you believe in astrology it definitely signifies new beginnings! Or, at least the Chinese New Year does lol.

I have a lot of outward goals for the next couple years of my life (publishing my first paper, teaching my first public yoga class); but mostly just the shift in mindset I've been observing in myself has been pretty powerful.

My actual new years 'resolution' is to quiet my inner voice (source of anxiety, depression, inflated and deflated ego, etc.) for a more sustainably happy life. I started reading the untethered soul, which has been super helpful. Also started reading the healed empath; it's an awesome book for anyone who suspects they are an empath or highly sensitive person/dealing with trauma. I didn't think empaths were real, but apparently there's neuroscience that proves some people are more empathetic than others, and a lot of the stories and experiences in this book really resonate with me. Both books (along with the yoga journaling I've been doing) really just provide me with ways to take care of myself. I feel as if I have been trying to break through the suffering caused by my mind for awhile now and have been in the right mindset, but I finally have the tools to do so. Therapy is part of that, I suppose but... since I don't think I need medication, this a real treatment plan I can work on, and I love projects :)

Visited my friend in Seattle for new years, it's a p rad city. I'm not fully against working there once I graduate (although convincing P and Joe to move anywhere so gloomy would be a long shot lol). Seeing my friend was nice, and getting to just be selfish and not worry about anyone else for a few days was amazing. It had definitely been too long.

All 3 of us did our own thing for new years (P went to NYC to visit friends, and Joe is still in a walking boot so he stayed home but his mom came to visit him). It was nice getting some time away to miss them, and I think we all had some selfish time with people who are really individually 'ours' outside of the relationship all 3 of us have, if that makes sense.

Joe sent a very thoughtful and mature text to both P and I on new years eve. Basically stated some rules he would like us to follow, but this included an option for P and I going on REAL ACTUAL DATES !!!!!!!! something we haven't done since Joe got ankle surgery that has kept him home since early November (I never went on a date with P unless Joe was working). Joe basically called out the elephant in the room that YES, HIM AND I ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP AND P AND I ARE ALSO IN A RELATIONSHIP and that INVOLVES COMMUNICATION ON ALL OF OUR PARTS in order for things to run smoothly, NOT JUST FOR ME TO FRET OVER/FIGURE OUT. sorry for the all caps, but i felt really heard and appreciated. P didn't have much to say about it, but he agreed to the rules and asked me out on a date soon after :) Joe isn't working yet, so usually we would all do something together, but this morning I said to Joe: "Are you cool if P and I go to this thing on Friday?" and he said that he was. I think knowing where the rules stand makes Joe feel more comfortable about it, and it makes my relationship with P seem less like something we're hiding from the world. I was worried about Joe getting super jealous because he'll be home while we're out, but I think it actually helps that he'll be there when we come home, so he can see that we are just spending time together, not doing anything crazy different than friends would, and coming home to hang out with him afterwards. Joe often struggled more with the sex part of me and P's relationship, so that not being a part of the equation might help. Who knows. I'll just try not to be too excited about it. Maybe I'll wear sweatpants lmao

Joe did say he hopes P feels he can just be forward with Joe about dates in the future, and that that was the intention of his message. I agreed with him and am also hoping for this so I don't always have to be the one communicating (or even if I am, if P is less secretive/quiet about things it will normalize our relationship), but told Joe I think P will be more transparent once he sees that Joe isn't angry about us going on a date like he has been in the past. I'm hoping their friendship can heal fully with these new rules; they have a guys trip planned for February that I'm not invited to :)
 
I think it would help everyone to reframe this as Joe's desires and requests, not as RULES that he establishes and everyone else has to follow, or else! It makes him sound (to me) like he is the dictator/emperor and you and P the lowly serfs, trying to avoid a flogging with a cat o' nine tails.

Joe can request things. You and P individually can agree or disagree about whether you feel comfortable with these requests and going along with them. You also can request things. P can request things. You can all be polite and kind and adults and do things to make everyone feel respected and comfortable. I guess things feel differently because you think you broke Joe's trust in the beginning by falling in love with Peter, so you want to regain his trust? But again, he is not your dad or your boss. You are all individuals with human rights.

Just thinking out loud here...
 
I think it would help everyone to reframe this as Joe's desires and requests, not as RULES that he establishes and everyone else has to follow, or else! It makes him sound (to me) like he is the dictator/emperor and you and P the lowly serfs, trying to avoid a flogging with a cat o' nine tails.
I feel that. I didn't mean for it to come off that way... P and I have definitely been going on dates, but both of us avoided doing it recently because there was no way to "hide" it while Joe's been home. It was really a decision on me and P's part not to confront the situation and continue keeping me and P's relationship a 'secret' even though, everyone knows (so just not in Joe's face)? and it really just feels like Joe has stated that he is finally ready for us to be more forthright about everything. So I guess that's what I'm feeling good about, it's like we can stop pretending that what's happening isn't happening, which takes a lot of pressure off of me and makes my relationship with P not seem like some weird thing I keep in a closet even (and especially) while I'm at home.
You can all be polite and kind and adults and do things to make everyone feel respected and comfortable.
I think this is what we have been doing. Like, me and P do hang out solo, but we always did it while Joe was busy to be kinder to him... Like, so he always felt that he was invited? And as a result of these conversations it just feels like we can say "okay, P and I are going on a date, letting you know, cool?" instead of me and P maneuvering around his schedule or inviting him to everything both of us plan. And I'm hoping it means they do more things together, without me as well. I definitely get where you're coming from with the whole "you are all individuals with human rights" part. I think that the direction we're all moving in is honoring that more than it used to, and it's a result of me and P standing up for we want as well as Joe working a lot on his own acceptance of P and I's relationship.
Rules were: no unprotected sex (was already happening, nbd there), no sex while Joe is home (also already happening), and just give him a heads up about dates. So, idk. I feel like if this makes Joe more comfy, and offers a more direct way to make plans between the 3 of us while not being secretive, then I'm a fan.
I guess things feel differently because you think you broke Joe's trust in the beginning by falling in love with Peter, so you want to regain his trust? But again, he is not your dad or your boss.
I am not the only one that needs to hear this... it seemed difficult to make things more transparent/assert what I wanted in the past when P is committed to "loving me quietly".. his words, not mine lol. I think he had a lot of guilt about our relationship as well, and was trying to help Joe feel more comfortable.
 
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I know it's common in human society to avoid confrontation, to speak half truths, to hide and even outright lie to "protect someone's feelings."
You and P are actually being patronizing to Joe in order to protect his feelings. It seems odd from here that you all live together, everyone knows you and P love each other, and have sex with each other, and enjoy spending time together, yet you all pretend it's not happening.

And that's been going on for 2 years.

I can see limiting PDAs in say, the first 6 months or so of dating polyamorously. Say, Joe doesn't want to see you and P make out. So you limit that behavior to behind a closed door. Fine. But you're going to far as to only date when you know Joe is busy? That means he never has to get used to being alone for a couple of hours and be OK with you two having fun without him. He doesn't get to practice, to sit with his feelings until he learns for himself that the world won't end, you won't leave him, if you go out with P for a while.

You all seem to have this group mentality. You even went through it with P's sister. You and she didn't get along at all, but you seemed to think you all needed to go out as a FOURSOME all the time. It sounds like everyone would benefit from going out more solo and in a twosome. No one will get comfortable with it unless you actually do it. Avoiding it just makes it a bigger deal than it has to be.

Since this idea seems to be so foreign to you all, maybe you could sit down with a calendar and pencil in dates for several upcoming weeks. Days where you go out solo, with P, with Joe. Days where Joe goes out solo, with you, with P. Days where P goes out solo, with you, with Joe. Days where any one of you might go out with OTHER friends or family. P with his sister or his friends. Joe with P's sister or friends. You with your own friends or family. And so on... I bet, after a couple months of this goes by, it will all come to seem like just normal life.

When I was first really practicing poly, I lived 20 miles away from Pixi. I usually spent Friday night thru Monday morning at her place. Then I'd go home, work, see friends and family. She would work, see her friends. And we would both go on dates with our OSOs.

We were both also active on dating sites and even looked at our messages from others when we were hanging out at her place on the weekends.

At one point, I had a bf who lived near her, and I'd take time out of the weekend to go see him, like every other week. And sometimes she might have a long weekend (kink) event planned with her OSO, and so I'd just stay at my own place and they'd go do that. It wasn't easy for me when she went on her first weekend away with him. But I did it. And the world didn't end. And eventually it just became part of normal life.
 
You all seem to have this group mentality. You even went through it with P's sister. You and she didn't get along at all, but you seemed to think you all needed to go out as a FOURSOME all the time. It sounds like everyone would benefit from going out more solo and in a twosome. No one will get comfortable with it unless you actually do it. Avoiding it just makes it a bigger deal than it has to be.
I mean, yeah. I wouldn't argue with that. We all lived together during covid, so I think there was this assumption that we all needed to be hanging out all the time, and that time apart meant something was wrong. We were all each other had for ~2 years.... P's sister was preoccupied with her romantic relationship, Joe's friends were flaking off one by one, and I had moved to a new place and knew no one. The point of my original post was me reflecting on how that is changing. P has been hanging out alone with his sister mostly after me asking him to do so, which has helped our relationship a lot. Other than that, he really doesn't have any other friends around here. I have been hanging out some with my friends; I was really busy last semester so I've mostly just spent time in yoga teacher training, tutoring, or at school but it's still time away from both of them. Yoga is my community, and I didn't used to have that. Joe is stuck at home pretty frequently right now; he can drive but his ankle isn't 100% yet, and making friends as a travel nurse is not easy. I think we're all making better choices so hanging out seems less like the only option and more intentional. Joe being home has just made it a little more difficult for P and I to spend time together without talking to Joe about it, and for awhile neither one of us really wanted to take that space. But we are now, so that's cool.
I sometimes feel anxious knowing that P is hanging out with someone who doesn't want me in his life (his sister), but after I told him not to bring her over here without a heads up, he's respected that (she hasn't been over at all! we have gone to see her a few times, and it's been fine... her and i are never alone and she knows better than to say some fuck shit in front of either Joe or P), and any time I feel super anxious (mostly thinking she would get in between us in some way) I just remind myself that she has literally no power over our relationship unless I give it to her and it's gotten better. So I feel you on the whole "discomfort at first, and then the situation will feel normal" thing. The anxiety hasn't completely gone away, but it's definitely better. I guess in this case both of us cared enough about Joe not to make him feel uncomfortable, especially when he had limited mobility to go out and do his own thing. But yeah I understand that being patronizing.
 
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I know it's common in human society to avoid confrontation, to speak half truths, to hide and even outright lie to "protect someone's feelings."
You and P are actually being patronizing to Joe in order to protect his feelings. It seems odd from here that you all live together, everyone knows you and P love each other, and have sex with each other, and enjoy spending time together, yet you all pretend it's not happening.

And that's been going on for 2 years.

I can see limiting PDAs in say, the first 6 months or so of dating polyamorously. Say, Joe doesn't want to see you and P make out. So you limit that behavior to behind a closed door. Fine. But you're going to far as to only date when you know Joe is busy? That means he never has to get used to being alone for a couple of hours and be OK with you two having fun without him. He doesn't get to practice, to sit with his feelings until he learns for himself that the world won't end, you won't leave him, if you go out with P for a while.

You all seem to have this group mentality. You even went through it with P's sister. You and she didn't get along at all, but you seemed to think you all needed to go out as a FOURSOME all the time. It sounds like everyone would benefit from going out more solo and in a twosome. No one will get comfortable with it unless you actually do it. Avoiding it just makes it a bigger deal than it has to be.

Since this idea seems to be so foreign to you all, maybe you could sit down with a calendar and pencil in dates for several upcoming weeks. Days where you go out solo, with P, with Joe. Days where Joe goes out solo, with you, with P. Days where P goes out solo, with you, with Joe. Days where any one of you might go out with OTHER friends or family. P with his sister or his friends. Joe with P's sister or friends. You with your own friends or family. And so on... I bet, after a couple months of this goes by, it will all come to seem like just normal life.

When I was first really practicing poly, I lived 20 miles away from Pixi. I usually spent Friday night thru Monday morning at her place. Then I'd go home, work, see friends and family. She would work, see her friends. And we would both go on dates with our OSOs.

We were both also active on dating sites and even looked at our messages from others when we were hanging out at her place on the weekends.

At one point, I had a bf who lived near her, and I'd take time out of the weekend to go see him, like every other week. And sometimes she might have a long weekend (kink) event planned with her OSO, and so I'd just stay at my own place and they'd go do that. It wasn't easy for me when she went on her first weekend away with him. But I did it. And the world didn't end. And eventually it just became part of normal life.
I just... ugh. with all of this. I don't disagree with any of it. I have been super proactive about all of this from the outset. Sometimes this shit feels like a democracy between the 3 of us, and for a long time I was the only one that was like "HEY THIS IS HAPPENING AND WE NEED TO MAKE A PLAN! HERE'S MY PLANNER. LETS PLAN DATES. LETS NOT ASSUME WE ALL NEED TO HANG OUT TOGETHER. LETS MAKE THINGS MORE INTENTIONAL SO EVERYONE FEELS MORE COMFY." but there was really no change on P or Joe's part to make that happen. How do I tell Joe that me and P are going on a date when P isn't ready to have a conversation with Joe about it.. and we all live together? That just seems like an invitation for passive aggression. I also had a way easier time making friends so they really just had me and each other for awhile; being a part of a PhD program and having a bunch of hobbies helped me meet people. Neither of them have other partners. And right now, I don't think they plan on doing that. They have both had a monogamous mindset from the beginning, which put a lot of pressure on me to just kinda finagle my way around both of them to make things work.... even though everyone knew what was going on. And that's on me for not pushing the conversation more. At times I did though, it was like "don't make it weird" mentality from both of them.
I just felt that I really couldn't force shit. I know now that I always had the power, to, like, make ultimatums or spend time away, but with all the stuff going on in my life, it was easier to leave shit the way it was and wait for them. I don't plan on doing that again, and it's definitely been a learning process. I think a big part of the reason why I even gave a shit what P's sister thought of me was because my relationship with him felt like some closeted bullshit that wasn't going to last. So reflecting on that has been eye opening. Can't have beef unless two people are swapping negativity.
I feel as if things are being done right ** now, and I'm excited to see where this takes us. Trying not to be stuck mulling over lost time being sad because all of us were not making healthy choices.
 
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I guess both of us cared enough about Joe not to make him feel uncomfortable, especially when he had limited mobility to go out and do his own thing.
Just for an outside perspective-- If I was ill or injured in some way, and living with 2 other people, I wouldn't mind if they went out with each other and left me at home to rest and heal. I wouldn't want to be alone all the time, of course! It's nice to have someone around to be entertained by, or to provide meals, meds, do my laundry and other housework, etc. But for me, personally, it's nice to have more alone time, to not be "on." I am fairly balanced between introversion and extroversion and need some alone time, and more of it if I am ill or injured.

If I had 2 roommate/lovers, I would WANT them to go out without me, enjoy themselves. Then they could entertain me by telling me what they did, bring me food or a souvenir from their adventures, etc. It's a balance. I could get envious if they went out "too much" or overshared their stories or photos of what they did. But I sure wouldn't want them to NEVER go out, just because I couldn't.

For example, I had cancer several years ago and had to undergo chemotherapy, which made me hella exhausted. I would WANT my partner to go out without me, to give me time alone to just veg in front of the TV, or sleep. I wanted to tune out from the world and just heal.
I just... ugh. with all of this. I don't disagree with any of it. I have been super proactive about all of this from the outset. Sometimes this shit feels like a democracy between the 3 of us, and for a long time I was the only one that was like "HEY THIS IS HAPPENING AND WE NEED TO MAKE A PLAN! HERE'S MY PLANNER. LETS PLAN DATES. LETS NOT ASSUME WE ALL NEED TO HANG OUT TOGETHER. LETS MAKE THINGS MORE INTENTIONAL SO EVERYONE FEELS MORE COMFY." but there was really no change on P or Joe's part to make that happen.
I'm glad they're putting on their big boy pants now.
How do I tell Joe that P and I are going on a date when P isn't ready to have a conversation with Joe about it.. and we all live together? That just seems like an invitation for passive aggression.
Invitation for PA on whose part? If P won't tell Joe, you tell Joe and just do it. If Joe tries go get PA, nip that in the bud by modeling straightforward behavior, and/or calling him out when he does it. (My ex husband of many years was very PA though, and I kept hoping he'd grow out of it. He never did, and that was a big factor in why I left him...)
I also had a way easier time making friends so they really just had me and each other for awhile; being a part of a PhD program and having a bunch of hobbies helped me meet people.

I just felt that I really couldn't force shit. I know now that I always had the power, to, like, make ultimatums or spend time away, but with all the stuff going on in my life, it was easier to leave shit the way it was and wait for them. I don't plan on doing that again, and it's definitely been a learning process.

I think a big part of the reason why I even gave a shit what P's sister thought of me was because my relationship with him felt like some closeted bullshit that wasn't going to last. So reflecting on that has been eye opening. Can't have beef unless two people are swapping negativity.
I feel as if things are being done right ** now, and I'm excited to see where this takes us. Trying not to be stuck mulling over lost time being sad because all of us were not making healthy choices.
Yeah, no used in obsessing about past mistakes. My gf has anxiety disorder and her brain sort of naturally goes to past mistakes, and she actually has a vocal tic when she gets triggered. It takes meds and therapy and a lot of awareness on her point to not go there as much these days.
 
life is gud. have been hanging with P alone more (outside the house, as Joe is still recovering from ankle surgery for another month). I have a date planned with Joe this evening. Just finished yoga teacher training, and starting school up again for spring semester.
I'm working on feeling content with where things are currently. I miss nights home alone with P, and so does he, but that's just not a possibility right now. I'm grateful that we've been intentional about spending time together just he and I, and I've been planning a lot of things alone with my friends. All three of us have a trip to Utah planned for next weekend that I'm pretty excited about. Winter vibes have me just wanting to feel comfy and relaxed with work/school/life rn, and not overextend myself.
 
not much has changed lol. been pretty busy and stressed this week, + on period so just a tad emotional. life is still really good! Joe and i are doing really well. I am curious to see how our schedules pan out once he starts at work again in a couple weeks. We got our concealed carry licenses together. I'm not a gun fanatic, but it's cool to know more about it and a good skill to have.
Caught myself in a mood tonight and was tearing up about how badly I want to spend time alone with P lol. Now that Joe is going back to work soon, I can reflect a bit on all the ways P and I have adjusted to be around each other. I get up early to go to the gym with him, a nice lifestyle change for me so that's a cool perk. We go to hot yoga together (I got him a class pass at my studio for christmas). We volunteer at the homeless shelter together. All awesome and rewarding experiences, but BOY I CANT WAIT TO JUST BE A SELFISH LAZY BUM WITH HIM and watch shitty foreign movies and eat ice cream together. He's my ice cream buddy (Joe doesn't eat ice cream; his self discipline is impressive). P and I could cuddle for literal days if we didn't have to do anything. We've still found time to have sex, but the past few months have assured me that it's much more than just sex between P and I. I needed that reassurance; I have a hard time not objectifying myself and assuming others do the same. Anyway. This is us passing each other in the hallway:
IMG_8547 Small.jpeg
if me drawing comparisons to hellelil and hildebrand doesn't showcase how dramatic I am, idk what does.

It's really awesome living with both of them, but the past few months have definitely made me understand why Joe and P want separate homes eventually. I'll miss the sunday breakfasts together though :') but... neighbors can have sunday breakfasts 🤔 hehe
It's hard to explain to mono friends some of the feelings im feeling so I don't even try, but they're very real. I appreciate having a place to dump these thoughts :) overall feeling very grateful. and sensing the constant flux of life. being so closely connected to two people definitely keeps me on my toes. sometimes i get anxious because i try to hold on, but i think im getting a little better at letting go✨🌟🎇
 
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heavy feelings today. just came back from spending time with family, which was nice but the travel was brutal and i have a huge exam tomorrow... a lot of my stress right now is probably stemming from that and some other shit going on.
I haven't been seeing my therapist lately, which i think has been a good thing in some ways (helps me with self regulating feelings; plus therapy was starting to become an empty chore that i wasn't getting much out of).
Joe is inching closer and closer to his start date at his new job. We argued today on the way to the gym, and he said he thinks we've just been spending too much time together. i totally agree with that, plus this morning we talked for a couple hours about me P and him cohabitating, which started off really nice but Joe said some things and I felt invalidated.
I can't shake the feeling that Joe assumes P and I's relationship has a shelf life. I am already insecure about P and I surviving through early adulthood; will we still make each other a priority in our lives when we're both in our careers? I've talked with P about this and he's assured me that he plans on making he and I work in the future, but. idk. life happens. promises are broken all the time. I should believe P, though, we've already been thru a lot of shit together (i.e. hasnt been easy or convenient) so as things move and change, that doesn't necessarily mean we'll fall apart. I don't really care what Joe thinks me and P's relationship is like, but if I want a future with both of them, it's pretty unlikely if Joe assumes P and I will cease to be at some point.
Joe also said that his love and P's love for me just "isn't the same" which yeah duh, they're different people? But Joe's take was that it's because P hasn't been in a serious relationship before (he has dated other people, and had lots of casual sex just didn't want to keep moving on the relationship escalator with anyone before me), so how could P KNOW that he loves me? hearing this from Joe is annoying and honestly, the conversation shouldn't have even gotten that far. I had one other relationship (not even dating anyone else) before Joe, with an abusive partner (a whole other story, he used to stalk me until i moved away from home and i just realized he lives 25 minutes away??) So it's not like I really knew what love was before I met Joe. Joe just had lots of serious girlfriends before me, and there's this assumption that other people need to love how he does in order for it to be valid. Like, P can't love me, or he wouldn't be content sharing me. which is horseshit.
On the flip side, Joe was saying that him and P had a really nice weekend while I was away, and he feels like there was lots more eye contact than usual, and much more like him and P were just two guy friends hanging out. I'd actually never heard Joe say that he thought P was avoiding looking him in the eyes like that, so that's interesting. Maybe a guilt/shame thing? idk. I'm happy that the had a nice time.
Joe has been doing this thing lately where he overthinks EVERYTHING and reports back to me and im like... so you having a nice weekend with P convinces you that you don't want to live with him? and i need to deal with that how? he is constantly reminding me how "temporary" this living situation is, but like... i am in school for another 2 years. Can we just get closer to the end before we start making plans of how that's going to look? I would like us to all be together at that time, but what if that's not even the case? I am bad at setting those boundaries, i usually just took it in and then vented to my therapist but... well.
I trust Joe a lot, and make the mistake (probably in part because we have been spending so much time together, and I don't get much time alone with P right now ... see above) of venting to him about lingering insecurities in P and I's relationship. That's on me, i messed up this morning. That was something i agreed i wouldn't do and i let my emotions overwhelm me. I shouldn't expect him to help me navigate insecurities in my other relationship. So... not sure if not seeing my therapist has been great lol, she was the one person i could talk to about this and not feel judged/get biased advice.
shit is always the worst right at the end. I'm holding onto Joe starting work next week. P and I haven't had a night alone in 5 months. Just saying that sounds ridiculous, we literally live together. I got advice on this forum to just set a date with P and stick to it, regardless of if Joe is working. we tried that, and I was so anxious about hurting Joe's feelings that I mentally felt like I was tearing my hair out. P got sick and stayed home anyway, so we haven't revisited. It just didn't seem like a good time to start being so intentional with dates while Joe was recovering from his ankle surgery, and a date out of the house isn't quite the same as being in our home anyway.
I've asked P how he has been so patient this whole time. He said "I would wait forever for you". What is forever? can humans even understand that?
P and I are going skiing friday, and i booked some spa time on the way back. Nothing crazy, just an hour of hanging out and relaxing. going to just study my ass off until the weekend is here.
 
Haven't been on in here in awhile.
All is good! I have dealt with loss of a family member and a friend recently, which has been rough, but I've managed to find some positivity and I'm feeling very appreciative of life and grateful for my loved ones currently.

I have been busy with funerals and family visiting, both mine and P's. His family was in town this past weekend and didn't visit... like at all lol they all stayed 30 min away and neither Joe or I were invited. I'm actually pretty okay with it; it's a little odd since both Joe and I hung out with them frequently when we lived at home, but now that they know P and I are dating they are not interested in seeing me. Perhaps they don't know how to deal with it, or maybe P is protecting me from judgement. I prefer not hanging out with people who don't want me around, and have managed to be happy for P that he has a supportive and loving family. It gets easier as I work past some of my family stuff and feel closer with mine. P did not tell me I wouldn't be seeing him at all while they were here. his communication skills this past weekend were pretty ass so I'm taking some time away from him until I feel I can have a productive conversation about it. Saying "I don't know" in regards to me asking if I will be invited is lame, my mindset is that clear is kind when it comes to communication. anyway. obviously I'm still salty, but it's more because of a lack of communication than anything else, which is cool. I used to care a lot what his family thought of me, and I'm starting to grow out of it. Sometimes I do wish he had never told them about us dating, but whatever.

Joe and I are doing great. He has been so supportive while I've been struggling this past month; all my mood swings and hysterical crying and shit. I know it would have been way harder without him. His family is visiting in a couple weeks (they are literal angels... and also don't know about me and P so no judgement there). I enjoy hanging out with them, and they do lots of things that my family never really did together (camping! drinking responsibly!). They are super welcoming and I'm excited to have them around.

My friend that passed was someone who I was really close with a few years ago, but we moved to different areas around when I met Joe and P and we had only talked infrequently since then. I had taken on a role of taking care of her when we were close and living together, and am battling feeling responsible/guilty currently. I took care of my parents when I lived with them, then my ex boyfriend, and then my friend for awhile. Once I met Joe a lot of that went away; I really appreciate how put together he is. Now I am trying to keep myself from caring for P. He is 2 years younger than me, and I have to fight the urge to do things for him that he needs to do for himself. It doesn't help that his grandma asked me to "take care of him" when he moved out of his parents house to live with Joe and I (for the record... we weren't romantically involved at the time). I'm working on it.

I started teaching yoga classes last week. It's a really rewarding job :) while mourning for the past few weeks, I focused a lot on my yoga practice and gardening; mostly stayed out of lab and managed to pass my last PhD class ever! Feeling excited for productive experiments this summer and helping others discover the wonder of yoga. I'm aware that I sound corny as fuck, but it's really satisfying.

I have seen my family and friends so much this past year, sometimes for shit reasons (death) and sometimes awesome ones (weddings, birthdays). I really appreciate all of it. I'm not sure if it was because of covid limiting travel or just how busy I was with school when I first came here, 2020-summer 22 I really didn't see many of MY friends and MY family. I got pretty caught up in Joe and P's life, and now I feel like I am more aware of my own safety net of humans that love and care for me. I am working on looking less to P and especially Joe for emotional support and going elsewhere. I have a childhood friend that's moving 30 min away this month, so im excited. I give less of a shit about informing people that I'm poly as me and P's relationship is more established, so I think it's gotten easier to make new friends. I don't need to tell people my fucking sexual orientation as soon as I meet them, but for awhile I felt like it was my entire identity because it was the part of my life that caused the most problems. I also felt like something was "wrong" with me for being poly, so I wanted to warn new humans so they could judge/shun me before we became close. Now I can see my relationships with P and Joe and all my friends and family as all these separate entities, none of which is more important than the other.

Feeling good today, we'll see how tomorrow goes :)
 
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The last few times I travelled were for family or for school, so I'm in the middle of planning a 5 day trip to costa rica with P in November, followed by a week long trip to greece with Joe. They'll be back to back which will be a tad bit hectic, but I'll just be using it as my fall/winter break, and I think it'll be really nice to go on 1-1 trips with both of them. I've been wanting to do something like this for a WHILE (especially with P--we've been dating two years and never been on a solo trip!). I've started sending feelers out to both Joe and P about it; everyone seems on board. Might be a lot to ask of P as far as financials since he just spent a lot of $$ visiting his fam recently, but 4 months seems like enough time to budget since it's a cheap trip, and I feel confident that if it doesn't happen in November I will definitely be making plans to travel with him sometime in 2024.

Other than that life is pretty much the same! I'm teaching yoga classes and progressing with my research/thesis. Still thankful! Just taking life one day at a time :)
 
I actually think it's funny that my mom's habit of probing me on if I'm going to have kids has now evolved into her probing me on who I'm going to have kids with lmao

I've been having a bit more serious conversations with P about this topic. It will definitely be far down the line if it ever happens, but it's cool that we both have really similar values as far as how much we would want our parents involved if we started a family, what we would teach them, etc. These convos were off limits for awhile since being poly makes it a bit more complicated. I asked P how he thought we would manage our family's opinions of our relationship; like obviously a child of ours would be loved by both families, but that doesn't mean that I would be loved or that he would be accepted as my partner (my family loves P, but is struggling with the concept of us being together romantically). I mentioned how it would be confusing for a kid if their grandparents on one side didn't fuck with one of their parents. Then I remembered that my grandma was very outspoken about not liking my mom hahaha and I dealt with that just fine.

I really wish there were more examples of stable poly families in the media tho. It's hard to visualize what a family with Joe and P and I would even look like.
 
Saw no hard feelings with P last night. Two dates in two weeks! I feel spoiled haha

Just finished reading Fleishman is in trouble. Really good book about marriage and love between two people. And middle age. And dating in the present day. Definitely reminded me of how young I am, but in a it-gets-better-but-also-gets-worse kind of way. Like more self awareness and personality with age, but also the physical parts of getting older aren't always the greatest, and that's it's rare to have a partner that keeps loving you through all of that. Also made me a bit anxious reading about the trope of man marries woman when they're both young, they have a kid, woman's body changes/she becomes the ideal domestic wife that he wanted, man divorces woman because he can't be faithful to someone so boring/unattractive, man marries again later in life to a much younger woman. And the opposite trope of a man being attracted to how independent and driven a woman is, only for it to be the exact thing he despises about her later in life when he hasn't quite lived up to his potential and feels threatened. Obviously not every marriage ends up this way, but it highlights the double standards that women live with. A lot of women really have to balance ambition with starting a family, if they want both of those things. I'm aware that this is all obvious stuff, but sometimes I feel as if being in school keeps me sheltered from a lot of this. Interested in seeing where life catapults me once i graduate.

Life is good. I think everyone is happy :) staying home this weekend and enjoying the awesome weather
 
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