New to Poly- Dating a Married Woman seeking advice

[A_Nash_Guy]

Hello, I found this site after deciding to do a bit of reading about dating a married woman. I've read through several posts, and found them very informative and helpful. But they are older, and times change so I thought I would ask more directly.

A bit of background. I'm a 43 year old man, luckily still very young by most standards thanks to a bit of luck and hard work. I was married once for 10 years, and have been divorced for over 10 years now. Every relationship I've been in has been monogamous. Though my ex wife and I did experiment in the lifestyle scene a bit. Very PG kind of stuff, same room that sort of thing.

Over the years I've had some close friends in long-term poly relationships. We had many discussions about the philosophies, boundaries, communication, and emotional growth they all under went as they explored multiple partnership lives.

Until recently I wasn't sure I was entirely interested in anything but monogamy, but interestingly I've always seemed to check-in with myself on that over the years. Last year I briefly dated two ENM woman, and enjoyed our conversation and the more open comfort level with discussing intimacy directly. Neither of those became physical, at the time I think I was still sorting through how to process all of that. And decided to walk away in the end.


Fast forward to now, or a little over a month or so ago. When I suddenly felt a shift internally, some sort of growth. That left me feeling suddenly very comfortable with the idea of dating in the ENM/poly world. Some sort of fear I had deep down evaporated, and I felt compelled to explore that world more fully.

So what does a guy do? Well this one found an app. Shocker I know, right?

Long story a bit shorter, I setup my profile and did some checking on what type of dating situation I was comfortable with. Single people only, married people, etc. Decided I was okay with most things, or was at least comfortable enough to find out.

So I met someone pretty quickly, which I'm incredibly grateful for. We really clicked, immediately, tons of chemistry. Intellectual, physical, and what felt like might very well be emotional.

Her background, my age, slightly younger. Married for 20 years, both happy, devoted, and great friends with one another. Started exploring the lifestyle about 4 years ago. Have had several other couples as intimate friends over the years.
They decided to start dating separately about six months ago. From what I gather he has several poly friends in a nearby state that she hasn't been much of a part of. Her single dating over the last six months wasn't fantastic. Seems as though she kept running into mostly sexually objectifying men.

Then the two of us met, and well lots of fireworks and excitment about one another. Simultaneously her husband met someone in a nearby place, and has been building a solo relationship with that person that I gather has also been going well.

Anyway, so she and I were talking one night recently and some how the idea of being boyfriend and girlfriend happened, and we both really liked the idea. A few days later her husband and the woman he has been taking to also decided to be boyfriend and girlfriend.

Soo then the big feeling words came out a few days ago. It seemed pretty evident that we were both feeling the "love" feeling and were being careful about saying it. But it happened, and it feels pretty great and very genuine.

She told me she had already told her husband that she was feeling that way about me even before she and I shared that with one another.
He took it pretty well, and told her he feels pretty much that way about his other person.

So things feel very open and on the table as far as the emotional connection that has been building. Which is fantastic, and relieving.


Even though the two of them have years of experience in the lifestyle this sort of emotional bond with people outsiide of their marriage is completely new. This is all completely new to me as well, obviously. So they are learning how to navigate things as we go, as am I.

Here's where I need some guidance. There is definitely a hierarchy here. I am 100% her second. If we spend time together it only happens if he is comfortable with it. Which as I entered into this with my eyes open and just dating I knew was going to probably be the case and also I respect 100% since they are a married couple, and I am more or less a single guy they or she is allowing into their relationship. Though, I am also allowing it to some extent.


So now that we are at this point, this place. I'm not really sure where to go. I also don't want to rush or be to greedy. In one sense I feel like if I ask for to much it might push their relationship to an uncomfortable place which breaks things for all of us.

On the other hand, I know I'm not going to be okay with only seeing her when he allows it forever. I know myself well enough, and know that eventually I'll want some of my needs to be met as well. What's a good route to travel here?

There's another dynamic that exists, which eventually won't feel great to me without some form of balance. It's fine now, as it's something that's been a part of their lives for several years now, and I'm pretty good at acceptsnce. They've historically had other couples as intimate friends. I believe that's pretty limited now, but it sounds like he might want to expand that as they've lost some of those long-term friends recently for various reasons. Anyway, when they hang with those friends they do many fun things, and sometimes take trips together. Which is cool, I'm happy they enjoy that with one another.

I guess the hard part is that I probably won't be a part of that. Because I'm single, and her boyfriend which doesn't bring anything fun to the table for him. Other than her having another happy relationship of course. And I really wonder if I'll be able to take her to do fun things that are more than a few hours in the evening. Like a trip or something similar. Already any overnight time we spend together is predicated on him being out of town and comfortable with it. And at this point is probably a monthly thing at best.

Thanks for any help, and advice. I do think I want this to be a long-term thing, and as far as I can gather she does as well. How can I make this successful, or do my part to help it be so.
Do you think I should expect to be simply a secondary that has very little ability to ask for time?

I should say that he's been very supportive of her exploring this with me. I haven't met him, but he does seem very diplomatic and balanced.
And I have been able to spend a decent amount of time with her. But it does feel like the clock is always ticking, maybe that's just a me thing. But yeah 3-4 hours here and there is wonderful, and I'm grateful but it flys right by.


Thanks again!

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

There are different ways to think about this. Poly people differ in their opinions.

Some people would query whether you'd accept this in a mono relationship. Would you be okay if someone had to check with their best friend before meeting you? Or their mother? Probably not. It would show signs of co-dependence that most won't find attractive.

However, we might make exceptions for someone with a parental or carer role to fulfill. Is that the same as someone poly with an existing relationship? Some say yes. Some say no. Some say yes and that's why they don’t date people with dependents either.

This couple have been dating as a couple most of the time and have only recently transitioned to dating separately. Some feel that's basically the same as couple who have just opened their relationship. They're a newbie. Some poly people don't date newbies because as you say, they're still learning what they want.

Some would say time overall is a massive factor in your relationship. You haven't been together that long and they haven't been "fully open" that long. It's very possible that in time, things will be where you need them to be. It's also possible that at any point they could find as a couple that they don't want to push things any more.

You need to be frank with your partner about some of what are now things you will need to be possibilities in your relationship. And really listen to what they say. It might mean this relationship isn't one you can thrive in.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

Thank you for the reply! Those are some interesting and helpful analogies you shared. Thanks for that!

I also hadn't considered the word "dependant" in that particular sense before. Or the fact that in the poly world, they have really just opened their marriage. Which makes sense, the boundaries and dynamics are totally different when dating as a couple.

I do feel like since we are all new at this, and I am patient. That being to frank about long term possibilities that I want so early is maybe a whole lot all at once?

I think they both want this to be successful. Before she and I met, she shared a story of him telling her how he felt like she was going to find someone she would really connect with soon. For various reasons, but that comes across to me as a sign that they both want a successful emotional connection outsode of their marriage. Don't you think?

Your perspective and insight is really helpful, thank you!

 

[Evie]

I agree with Seasoned, it sounds like they are both pretty new to dating separately from one another so they're still learning to manage how to have their own secondary partners. Honestly, so many of us have been there at some point along they way that my best advice right now is just to give it time. It should settle into being their new normal in a wee while as they realise that they don't have to actually ask permission from each other to go out with their significant others. Just run a calendar that makes sure nothing at home is neglected since they still do need to manage that part of their lives together. But outside of that, you should expect a reasonable level of independence/autonomy in your partner being able to decide when to spend time with you, and your schedule should be considered with the same level of respect.

Admittedly, it could go the other way and if one of their independent relationships end, they might want to call the whole thing off. Unfortunately, there is so much out of your hands here, it is more complex than a mono relationship, and it could be that they have their own challenges along the way. Fingers crossed that they have done the hard work to open up their relationship effectively.

If I were you, I'd ask. Is there veto power? - i.e. can her husband tell her she must stop dating you and can she tell him that he must stop dating his partner? This would be your big red flag. Is there an expectation of "fairness" that schedules must always align and they can only go out when the other is going out? Orange flag, this could be something they are working through.

Have a read of this https://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html#bor and see what talking points you want to bring up with your partner at this stage of dating, what can wait another 6 months, and what can wait longer.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

That being to frank about long term possibilities that I want so early is maybe a whole lot all at once?

This is a tricky one. In the mono world, there are some talks that are considered "too early". In the poly world, we will put right in our tinder profile that we will be wanting kids in the next five years!

There can be this limbo where you're not sure what you will want or what could add to your happiness. It sounds like you're kind of in that place. Maybe they are too.

There's this annoying thing that happens sometimes where you might be theoretically okay with a very casual arrangement with someone, but the individual in your life has passed that point for you. You can't pull back. And so if they put up a boundary about having "more" (whatever more is), you can't be happy with them.

It's okay to decide that you don't know you'll always be okay with the restrictions in this relationship with this person, even if similar terms might suit you with someone else.

Don't you think?

Yes. There is nothing about them you have shared that makes me think they'd never get "there". They've shown positive signs of being open to change overall. It's just new change.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

Thank you both so much for your insight and advice. This is all incredibly helpful. Everything the two of you shared feels very reassuring, thank you for that.

These are all such great questions, too. I've thought to ask them, or more so worried about them. But the framing is much more concise than I had conceptualized at this point.

I do have a good feeling that with time things will settle in to a more relaxed comfortable place.
Though, yes even before our first date I prepped myself to fully realize that they might just end their singkke dating at any moment for any reason. Of course now there are a lot more feelings on the line. I do feel like asking some of those questions now before we get. Even further down the road will be helpful. Even if she doesn't have an answer, it's a good conversation to start having. Which maybe gets people thinking more deeply about structure and long-term needs.

I think that limbo place mentioned is pretty accurate. Though, I do have a pretty good sense of what I want, I think I just need to be patient. While at the same time suportong the two of them in growth, and gently reminding her that her desire was to connect with someone emotionally that didn't objectify her, and she has. Which also means he ( I) am going to want more than the just the incredible sex we have from our relationship.

Okay going to read that link now!

 

[kdt26417]

Hello A_Nash_Guy,

I think it might help to sit down with your (married) girlfriend, and describe what goals you would like to have in your relationship with her. Like for instance that you want to be able to eventually spend time with her without her husband's specific go-ahead. And that you'd eventually like to be able to go on trips with her. Also, you would eventually like to have overnights with her more than once a month. Then ask her what her feelings are about that.

You are secondary right now, but maybe that won't always be the case. She's been married for twenty years; that's a lot of history and it's understandable that the two of them (husband and wife) want to give their marriage some favor/priority. But as you build more experiences with her (the wife), you should be able to "earn some priority points" and not be quite so much of a secondary anymore. This is how things often happen in polyamory.

I am in an MFM V, where my two companions (the other male and the female) are legally/lawfully wedded to each other. Technically, I am the single guy who lives with them. But I am considered a co-primary partner, and there is a lot of actions to back that up. I only mention that as an example of how, yes, a third person can eventually be on equal ground with a married couple. This doesn't guarantee that it could happen in your case. But it's conceivable.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

Kd, thank you for the reply and sharing your specific experience in an MFM V. It's reassuring to know that there are examples out there of something like this working.

I agree there is no way to know if my relationship develops into a co-primary agreement. But it is reassuring to know that it's not unheard of.

Yeah, I agree, and I like the simplicity in the way your framed my current long-term goals. Placing them as things to bring up now, but understandably given current dynamics and time together. Not something I expect right away.

What do you guys suggest are some good ways that I can support the two of them in growing?
And help increase their comfort level with our newly founded V situation?

 

[kdt26417]

Well it depends. If the three (four) of you are practicing Kitchen Table Poly with each other, then you can probably build a (platonic) friendship with the husband, and support him in that way. If he prefers Parallel Poly, then he might need some space, and the opportunity to grow on his own steam.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

Gotcha, so it's kind of hands off at this point? Since it's all new and we haven't really established a "type" dynamic yet. Well, I suppose it's more parallel at this point actually.

I'm going to see her tonight, and bring some of this up. We'll see how it goes!

Going to ask about the three of us meeting. We've talked about it, and have all agreed to do that. She did seem nervous about it. I asked her if the two of us meeting was something she would like. She said "yes, just don't like him more than me". Definitely something emotional there to be aware of. I think?

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Maybe she feels he's generally more vivacious than she is so she might be overshadowed by his presence.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi A_Nash_Guy,

Yeah, hold off for now unless/until they establish a Kitchen Table type dynamic. Right now all three (four) of you are new to this, each of you has to find your own way along the poly path. Of course you can always talk to her (the wife) about your thoughts, goals, desires, and observations.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

Gotcha, so it's kind of hands off at this point? Since it's all new and we haven't really established a "type" dynamic yet. Well, I suppose it's more parallel at this point actually.

I'm going to see her tonight, and bring some of this up. We'll see how it goes!

Going to ask about the three of us meeting. We've talked about it, and have all agreed to do that. She did seem nervous about it. I asked her if the two of us meeting was something she would like. She said "yes, just don't like him more than me". Definitely something emotional there to be aware of. I think?

There is no need for you to "support the two of them." Let's give them names. Anne is your gf, Adam is her husband. You are dating Anne. Not Adam. You aren't being "brought into their relationship." They have a relationship with each other. You have a relationship with Anne. They are not a CoupleBlob.

They might have been a CoupleBlob while being in the swinging lifestyle all those years. But now they want more than FWBs. They want real romantic relationships with their individual sex partners. A partnership is two people. Even if you started lusting after or loving Adam, you'd be in one relationship with Anne, and one relationship with Adam.

You are here to support Anne. You think you love her. It's only been a month. You barely know here. Sure, you're having a great time, great sex, lots of laughs. Take it easy, my dude. Real love takes months, or a year, or more, to really develop. In my opinion, and the opinion of many, love comes out of not just fun dates, but going through trials together and being loyal to each other through the trials. You've heard the term fair weather friends. You're infatuated with Anne, and vice versa. You're experiencing the high of NRE. Wait and see. Keep your head on straight. Be cautiously optimistic, emphasis on caution.

What is up with her being afraid you'll like Adam more than you like her?? Are you men both bi? Hold off on meeting him until Anne works through this seemingly odd fear. Maybe it stems from something she experienced while swinging.

I don't recommend trying to do a triad with this couple, where you are in a romantic/sexual relationship with both people. Even if you and Adam are bi, don't go there. It gets very complicated, can get competitive, can get messy. Both of your partners would be your lovers as well as your metamours. Usually triads don't last. MFM Vs, however, can work out well long term.

Tell Anne that you aren't interested in dating both of them, are not motivated to have threeway sex, etc. (Most polyamorists don't have threeway sex.) Maybe that could happen down the line, but I'd recommend putting it on the back burner until you are firmly established as Anne's bf.

 

[Magdlyn]

There is no way to know if my relationship develops into a co-primary agreement. But it is reassuring to know that it's not unheard of.

Some married poly couples practice hierarchical poly, where they are determined any other partners will always be secondary. And some secondaries WANT to remain that way. They may have a primary, or they may have kids, be busy, have a demanding job, lots of consuming hobbies, be doing elder care, traveling a lot for work, etc., etc.

It sounds like since you've only known monogamy, and are only dating Anne, you want to be her co-primary. If this couple is even open to that (questionable, since they were swingers, which is inherently hierarchical, for 20 years), you'd have to earn that by fitting into her life in an easy healthy way, by being patient, by taking what it is she can give at each stage, not constantly pushing for more more more. It's only been a month. Maybe she'd make a terrible primary for you. You have no idea.

Yeah, I agree, and I like the simplicity in the way your framed my current long-term goals. Placing them as things to bring up now, but understandably given current dynamics and time together. Not something I expect right away.

What do you guys suggest are some good ways that I can support the two of them in growing, and help increase their comfort level with our newly founded V situation?

Again, you don't need to support "them." Just Anne. Take it easy. NRE makes one get obsessive about our partner, desperate to spend time together, to fuck. But that's just hormones and biology. Stay grounded in real life and practicalities. Patience pays off. Keep your expectations low. Even if I am saying you don't need to support BOTH of them, you do need to respect their relationship and bond and history.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

Maybe she feels he's generally more vivacious than she is so she might be overshadowed by his presence.

I get that read as well, they are both very attractive people. But I do get a sense that perhaps in a group setting she might feel overshadowed.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

Magdlyn,

Thank you for taking the time to reply with your insight and wisdom. Lots of helpful information and perspectives.

I agree completely NRE can be intoxicating and consuming in many fantastically fun and exciting ways. Keeping a grounded perspective about that as much as possible is necessary.

Sure, long-term who knows what could change, feelings, discoveries, etc. As with any relationship. One of the wonderful things I've discovered in my journey thus far into the poly world is that people are much more open and comfortable with being exactly who they are. Especially with their wants, needs, desires, etc. As compared to mono courtship/relationship building. Which has felt incredibly freeing.
Seasoned mentioned something about that earlier actually.

The nature of love I think we could debate until the end of time. Because it takes many forms, and is inherently different for everyone. Though I agree what Annie and I share currently is a very early form of love. What you described is love developed over time through long term experiential trust building, and more. Gottman writes quite a bit about this. Thank you for the perspective though. And for sure early forms of love sometimes evaporate. As can all love. They are all real though, in my opinion.

Thanks for the perspective on swinging, and how you see them wanting to growing in new ways.
Annie & Adam have been married for 20 years, LS couples swinging for 4. It is helpful to consider how Hierarchial that lifestyle is, thanks for pointing that out.

Definitely helpful to know that in the poly world focusing on the person or persons I'm in a direct relationship with, and supporting them specifically is the nature of things. Similar to mono world. That feels right me.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

Soooo, "Annie" and I spent some time together yesterday, and some things came up. Good things.

To my surprise well before we sat down and had our first "poly relationship" conversation. She asked if I'd like to have dinner with the two of them this week. Sounds like Adam was the main driver, but Annie would also like for us to meet, as would I. So that's going to happen. I'll definitely be conciencious of earlier observations. Any advice or perspective on first MFM V meetings, would definitely be welcome.

Our poly conversation was fun, easy, and natural. It does feel like the two of them have prepared their relationship to be more open pretty well, at least to the point we are now. They'd had some conversation, hence the desire to have dinner together. Annie tells me, Adam, prefers a hierarchial format which I respect and understand. I was married for 10 years, and know well the amount of life entwinement and history that represents. My perspective is that stability in Annie's primary relationship is paramount, and only leads to good stability for all involved. So no issue with a Hierarchal V situation from me, especially so early on while we are all experiencing, learning, and growing.

We discussed Kitchen Table vs parallel. Interestingly, and excitingly, Annie would prefer a more Kitchen Table dynamic. I also feel this would be best, if it can work with the three of us. So we'll see!

Yes Adam, and I would be platonic. I'm straight, and he is mostly as I understand. Definitely appreciate the warnings and advice about triad situations.

Annie was very receptive to the things I hoped they'd eventually be comfortable with in their relationship. Surprisingly, taking trips is something we're okay to do now, which I didn't expect.

Unexpectedly, she asked me how I felt about the LS couple / couples they have relationships with and how I felt about it. I told her I felt like that was something that existed between she and Adam, and was something prior to having secondary emotional relationships. And that I didn't think it was really my place to really comment. She pressed, I told her I didn't feel jealous, which is true. But there was a bit of sad about it. ( They recently spent time with their LS couple friends, and will travel with them in a few weeks). Interestingly she said she would feel that way, too. And told me she would be platonic friends with them going forward if I asked her too. - I didn't ask, I don't want to rock any potential boats, I think more time before I ask for to much.

Evie, mentioned earlier "veto power", and some things on permission to see seconds. I decided these were important questions. Good news is there is no veto power over secondary relationships, which was a relief to hear. I would have had to ask myself some tough questions if there was. Thanks for bringing that question up Evie!

The permission requirements for Annie and Adam to see their seconds sounds like it's going to stick around for a while. I expected this, it's really early, I'm patient, and that does feel like a big move for a married couple to make at this point. Plus maybe I can live with it, maybe I can't down the road. Will check back on that in maybe six months.

Anyway, thanks for the advice! How am I doing?
Advice on meeting Adam?

Thanks again!

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I would be cautious about what hierarchy involves. What does it look like to them? I'd find it confusing to say no veto power but no we are doing the hierarchy thing. I'd want some firmer details.

 

[A_Nash_Guy]

I would be cautious about what hierarchy involves. What does it look like to them? I'd find it confusing to say no veto power but no we are doing the hierarchy thing. I'd want some firmer details.

Thanks for this, that's a good question. My idea of hierarchy might be different than theirs. I'm thinking it's more of a priority thing, but I shouldn't assume they feel the same way.

Sounds like you aren't a huge fan of hierarchy situations?

 

[Magdlyn]

So, "Annie" and I spent some time together yesterday, and some things came up. Good things.

To my surprise, well before we sat down and had our first "poly relationship" conversation. She asked if I'd like to have dinner with the two of them this week. Sounds like Adam was the main driver, but Annie would also like for us to meet, as would I. So that's going to happen. I'll definitely be conscious of earlier observations. Any advice or perspective on first MFM V meetings would definitely be welcome.

Our poly conversation was fun, easy and natural. It does seem like the two of them have prepared their relationship to be more open pretty well, at least to the point we are now. They'd had some conversation, hence the desire to have dinner together. Annie told me that Adam prefers a hierarchical format, which I respect and understand. I was married for 10 years, and know well the amount of life entwinement and history that represents. My perspective is that stability in Annie's primary relationship is paramount, and that would lead to good stability for all involved. So, no issue with a hierarchical V situation from me, especially so early on while we are all experiencing, learning and growing.

We discussed Kitchen Table vs parallel. Interestingly and excitingly, Annie would prefer a more Kitchen Table dynamic. I also feel this would be best, if it can work with the three of us. So we'll see!

Yes Adam, and I would be platonic. I'm straight, and he is, mostly, as I understand. Definitely appreciate the warnings and advice about triad situations.

Annie was very receptive to the things I hoped they'd eventually be comfortable with in their relationship. Surprisingly, taking trips is something we're okay to do now, which I didn't expect.

Unexpectedly, she asked me how I felt about the LS couples they have relationships with. I told her that was something that existed between Adam and her, prior to having secondary emotional relationships. I didn't think it was really my place to really comment. She pressed, I told her I didn't feel jealous, which is true. But there was a bit of sadness about it. (They recently spent time with these friends, and will travel with them in a few weeks.) Interestingly, she said she would feel that way, too, and told me she would be platonic friends with them going forward if I asked her to. I didn't ask. I don't want to rock any potential boats, I think more time should go by before I ask for too much.

Right. Her relationship with her swinging friends is hers. You don't get to veto it, anymore than her hubs gets to veto you!

Evie mentioned "veto power," and some things about permission to see seconds. I decided these were important questions. Good news is there is no veto power over secondary relationships, which was a relief to hear.

The permission requirements for Annie and Adam to see their seconds sounds like it's going to stick around for a while. I expected this, it's really early,

A point to be made here is that there is no "permission" in polyamory. There is negotiation and consent. Often couples have agreed to only see other partners X amount of times a week, and to limit texting as well. This assures that they can keep giving themselves enough quality time to maintain the health of their relationship. It often starts small, with say, one date a week, no overnights, and gradually may progress to 2-3 dates a week and 1 or 2 overnights. It sounds like they're already used to taking trips with their swinging friends, so that feels normal to them!

I'm patient, and that does feel like a big move for a married couple to make at this point. Maybe I can live with it, maybe I can't, down the road. Will check back on that in maybe six months.

Anyway, thanks for the advice! How am I doing?

You're doing fine. As far as KTP goes, there's no need to hang out lots with Adam, since your time to see Annie will be limited. Why "waste time" chatting with him if you only get one 4-hour date with her a week to start? Just my opinions. Hopefully you guys will get along fine, but if not, it's easy enough to go to parallel.

Advice on meeting Adam?

I'd just consider it as if you're a mono guy "meeting the family." I think of my metamour kind of like a brother. In your case, he was there first, but Annie is making room in her life for you. And I assume he trusts her taste. So just be yourself. He doesn't have veto power, so his opinion of you won't make or break your relationship with Annie, going forward.

What do you hope to get out of meeting him?