Guilt over boundaries

[nto]

My partner Maria and I first became poly because she was more attracted to women as a rule, and she didn't know if she could deal with just being with a man for life. Fine, women, for whatever reason, don't make me jealous. No big deal.

Fast forward about 4-5 years, she started feeling more attracted to men. I explain I didn't feel comfortable with this, it triggered my jealousy, and intensely too. Fists clenching over what I recognize is just over nothing.

Well, Maria had been talking to a guy, Jude, and wanted to try a relationship with him. I am trying really really hard to get over my insecurity, so I tell her the best I can do is not tell her she needs to stop. They aren't officially anything, as far as a relationship goes. She went out with him a couple times, and I didn't handle it well. It gnaws at me. It grinds into my brain. Her phone goes off, letting her know it's a text, and I am on edge. I drink through it, though. Both Jude and I feel shorted on time, which doesn't help, since she is in school and has a job.

Fast forward a little further-- she tells me she loves him, and I damn near have a breakdown. I don't know how to deal with it. She saw how much it hurts me, and we both know there's no good reason for it. I just have no idea how to process it. I've considered everything from just saying whatever, go ahead, I'll deal with my own problems or I won't, and that's my problem, to moving out, to just drinking more. I don't know how to deal with it.

Anyway, she's planning on ending it. She's as depressed as me about this now, and I feel terrible, since it's my insecurity and jealousy making her miserable. I don't know how to deal with it. Adding to the fun is the fact that Jude is already depressed, even before he knows. He drinks too much, depressed statuses on Facebook, all that fun stuff. She's already worried he'll hurt himself, even before he knows what's up (although he does know about my issues).

So, any advice? I'll take advice on how to deal with my jealousy, my insecurity, the guilt I have over me feeling so bad, her feeling so bad, or anything else you care to give advice on. I have no idea what to do, say, or how to fix myself or help her.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

I wish I had words of advice, my friend, but I understand your guilt. I've just learned to accept that other guys entering my dynamic with Redpepper will change what we have from my end. Because of this, I sometimes dwell on the idea that what we have can't last forever in its current form of expression. You can either take the plunge and see what is on the other side if she follows this path, or learn to accept your own limitations.

As a side note, the drinking/depression guilt-trip thing you and Jude both have going on does not sound healthy.

 

[sage]

Hi and welcome.

Coping with a poly partner when you're mono (which you seem to be) is, in my opinion, a process that you have to go through. Everyone's process is, of course, unique, but there are commonalities, such as dealing with jealousy and insecurity.

(If you want to have a look at my process, the link is in my signature. Monolicious has also written some really good stuff about this recently on here that shouldn't be hard to find.)

The thing with jealousy is that it will highlight problems in your own relationship. You say you and Jude are both feeling short-changed in terms of time and that Maria is a student and working. It sounds to me as if this is where you should start. It would be difficult for anyone to successfully maintain all this, but add to that the fact that you're struggling to cope with the first other male she's dated, and he is also depressed and drinking, and it all sounds too much, to me.

Let Maria let Jude go. But don't take all the responsibility for it on your shoulders. Discuss it in terms of feasibility in the current context of your life. Let her know that you're willing to explore being able to cope with her pursuing relationships with other guys, but that maybe this guy at this time isn't a good fit.

Of course she'll be sad, but her life is full, and if you aren't beating yourself up over it, you will be in a better position to support her through it.

As far as him self-harming, that sounds like emotional manipulation to me, and more reason to leave well alone.

Hope that helps.

 

[collaredinMD]

Oy vey. There's not much I can say except to just support her as much as you can, y'know? The shoulder to cry on, and what have you. For the love of all things sacred, do not add to the aggravation by drinking too much and self-destructing. That is the kind of thing that makes it worse before it gets better. (Voice of experience. I just got through a divorce with my husband of 4 years, another long-drawn-out story.) My point is, as long as you are strong, she will be too (again, voice of experience).

 

[GroundedSpirit]

I'll take advice on how to deal with my jealousy, my insecurity, the guilt I have over her feeling so bad, her feeling so bad, or anything else you care to give advice on. I have no idea what to do, say, or how to fix myself or help her.

I'll try to toss out a few basics that might help you get started.

1. Jealousy is a fear-based response. In these affairs, it's usually fear of loss of something or someone we care about. Understand that you can't or shouldn't hold anyone captive. Nothing good can ever come of that. If people are connected on the right levels, nothing can change that. If you're not connected on the right levels, and can't get there, nothing will keep you together in a happy, loving condition.

2. Loving someone (as opposed to possessing them) means caring for their condition and happiness. Having that love returned to us depends on them witnessing this genuine caring and the actions associated with it. The more we love, the more is returned to us, in some form or another.

3. It's not uncommon for us to confuse sympathy/empathy for love. Far too many relationships get started from these confused seeds. These relationships frequently develop into codependent, destructive relationships. We can't fix/heal the world. All we can do is try to lend a little assistance from a distance. I mention this because, from what little you've posted, I would question Maria's motives in connection with Jude. He might be a decent person, but is her attraction driven from a desire to 'fix' him? That's a tough call, to be honest with ourselves, and do the honest soul searching. But it needs to happen.

4. Guilt, in this case, is very premature. I doubt that any lasting damage is done, and what there is, is not your fault. The cover is just coming off the pan in a dark room. Everyone is stumbling around trying to follow the scents, not even knowing what is cooking, and there's going to be some stubbed toes or black eyes. Everyone and no one is at fault, YET.

Try to do some learning, talk lots, and leave room for some mistakes. Inject as much solid fact and logic into the situation as possible and try to remove as many emotions. Emotions cloud judgement, and right now, clarity is vital.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[nto]

I'm not worried about emotions clouding decisions, I just really don't know how to deal with it, or what to do. I can tell her, "It's fine. Don't worry about it. Go ahead." I did that for about two months, trying my damndest to get over it fast. But really, I just end up depressed. The thoughts that make me feel better about it are when I have time with her, and the next time I can drink, which sounds worse than it is, since I've had alcohol twice in the last three weeks or so.

Ideally, Maria dates Jude, and I stop feeling depressed to the point that I want my brain to just shut down and leave me alone. Failing that, I'd like to know how to deal with things going forward, because now I feel terrible about this, since she dealt with my relationship with a woman, even though it upset the hell out of her.

Really, I'm absolutely at a loss, and don't know how to deal with the jealousy. Her being interested in other women never made me jealous like this. It just doesn't strike me as the same role, I guess. It makes me angry, nauseous, hurt, depressed, and generally not good.

 

[redpepper]

There is no reason that Maria needs to quit Jude, in my opinion.

I think what does need to happen is for you to meet him, and get to know him a little. You three could discuss boundaries and timelines together, so that Maria can spend time with both of you. You want your time to be special and for you only (no texts).

The other big thing is to slow down. If Maria seeing Jude X amount of time is too much for you, then ask that she see him less right now. Polyamory, and all relationships, are about expressing needs and making requests so that we can process and go at a pace that is comfortable. They are not about doing whatever, and then just expecting and assuming the others in the dynamic are sucking it up as much as we are.

Communicate, respect each other, empathize, spend time getting to know each other.

Make sure you are doing right by yourself first, while keeping others in mind.

Take a look at the Golden Nuggets section and educate yourself. Then you can make choices that are rational, and educate the others, so as to benefit yourself and them. I suggest that Maria and Jude do the same. Good luck.

 

[collaredinMD]

This is why I am now single. My husband's jealousy got out of hand because I was talking to another man who was a friend, while we were together. And my husband said he loved another woman, while we were together. I have a jealous streak a mile and a half wide, so I divorced him. But after a while, things cooled down, and now we are the best of friends.

What this has to do with your problem, I don't know. But things will turn out okay in the long run. Just stay positive.

 

[redpepper]

I'm absolutely at a loss. I don't know how to deal with the jealousy. Women have never made me jealous like this. It just doesn't strike me as the same role, I guess. It makes me angry, nauseous, hurt, depressed, and generally not good.

How about like your stomach and heart are going to rip out of your chest at the same time?

Well, you'll be happy to know that almost everyone who is newly experiencing their partner poly-dating for the first time feels like this. You are definitely not alone. Check out the threads on jealousy (search "jealousy") as there is a lot written on it.

 

[LovingRadiance]

I'll take advice on how to deal with my jealousy, my insecurity, the guilt I have over her feeling so bad, her feeling so bad, or anything else you care to give advice on. I have no idea what to do, say, or how to fix myself or help her.

Read the xeromag articles. That's my "place to start" suggestion.

Get the books Living Happily Ever After and The Seven Levels of Intimacy.

Do whatever it takes to get you busy working on your insecurities and fears. Stay busy and keep at it.

Don't focus on Jude's issues. They are not yours to fix, but his.

Focus on dealing with your own issues.

 

[Magdlyn]

I got really jealous when my ex-husband got a gf 11 years ago. I was naive, even though I'd read The Ethical Slut. I thought we were going to have fun FMF threesomes now and then, getting together from time to time. It was supposed to be beneficial for me, since I am bisexual. Instead my ex-husband and the woman we found fell in love, and she wasn't interested in me sexually.

I got so depressed. I didn't turn to booze, but I was so out of it, unable to function, my ex-h arranged couples therapy for us with a poly-friendly therapist. We did couples counseling with her weekly for a year. I also did individual therapy for three years. I went on Zoloft for a year and it really helped me have the energy to deal with it all.

The "funny" thing was, I was always the one to get crushes on other people.

Ultimately, my ex-h and I separated (after a 30-year relationship), for various reasons. We grew apart. The woman he'd had as a secondary in 2000 moved in with him six months after we split.

 

[preciselove]

Firstly, there is a distinct difference between a woman having female partners and male partners. Regardless of what some want to preach, there are physical differences and increased risks with male partners. If you want to beat this, you first have to understand it might not be entirely "jealous" in nature.

Secondly, there is something in men that makes them more jealous when women they are with are in the reproductive-age range. You will find most open marriages start when women are getting on in years (and hence can't or have difficulty conceiving), so the male is no longer afraid of raising another man's child, as it can't happen. There is a large segment of the poly community that follow this trend, also.

There is another difference between the male/females that is rarely raised. If a woman gets pregnant by another man, she has to do something about it: abort it, adopt the baby out, raise it, etc. A man can just leave, if he wants, and have nothing to do with it (outside possibly paying for some of it). Stable poly relationships in where there are two or more males get around this issue simply by the fact that the men aren't likely to leave. Open poly relationships mostly have this issue.

You could tell your girlfriend you're fine with her having other men sexually after she has passed the reproductive years, if she hasn't already. Your jealousy should then be easier to control.

Thirdly, if you aren't spending as much time with her as you would like, then her splitting up her time even more is hurtful to you, which makes you question where you are in her priorities.

 

[Indigomontoya]

I can understand your guilt, and your pain.

When TP and I first opened up our relationship (and I use the "open" term specifically because we had not yet moved to polyamory), her dates would gnaw at me horribly. The image of me sitting at home worrying was a reality. And when she first started dating Mr. A, it was the same. I remember one evening I was physically sick from anxiety over it. The only thing that helped me get over the anxiety was understanding and communication. I had to communicate my anxiety, jealousy, etc., because without her knowing, she would've just proceeded, assuming I was fine.

Looking back, what helped most was reassurance from TP. Quite literally, it would be a text message or a phone call, saying, "I love you, and I will come home if you need me to."

So, that's my advice. Figure out what you need to alleviate your anxiety, and communicate that. As for the jealousy, I just had to push past it. She is with you, and will come back to you, so you have to realize this. Even if TP goes and stays over at Mr. A's place, she will eventually come back to me physically and emotionally (plus all her stuff is here).

Stop comparing yourself to him, as well. You each bring something special to your girl. TP had to point this out to me many many times before it sank in.

As for his depression, there's not much you can do about that, so stop feeling guilty over it. You didn't cause all of the depression, you don't need to solve all of it.

Ultimately, you need to be slightly selfish initially to set out your needs and your requirements for this relationship to work.

 

[preciselove]

As for your jealousy, I just had to push past it. She is with you and will come back to you. Even if TP goes and stays over at Mr. A's place, she will eventually come back to me physically and emotionally (plus all her stuff is here). Stop comparing yourself to him, as well. You each bring something special to your girl. TP has had to point this out to me many many times before it sank in.

That's not always the case, though. Often relationships are ended because they find someone that is more compatible with them. Because they have a connection with you, they may first broach the subject of "the three of us can live together," but sometimes they do not.

I guess it all comes down to how much faith you have in your relationship, and if you're willing to accept a new person living with you. On the plus side, I think having that kind of "pressure" would also make you a better partner in some ways, because you can't just settle into a "rut" as easily.

My first gf and I have basically grown together over a decade now, so we have that history and similarities such that her finding someone to replace me (or vice versa) would be very unlikely. That said, anything is possible. "Open polyamory" removes the security blanket, because you're free to keep looking for new partners.

Part of the reason many marriages end is because, while they may not be openly looking for new people, after enough time they will randomly meet someone more compatible and start questioning their relationship - "Why isn't Joe more like Steve?" Open polyamory is like this, except you are putting yourself into the game over and over again, increasing chances of finding someone "better." However, polyamory at least gives you the option of being together in a group, which is a lot better than the monogamous path-- the end of the relationship.

Some people are of the opinion that the best point of being polyamorous is finding new people that are interesting and possibly more compatible with you, so they think that people like me, in closed relationships, aren't getting the benefits they are. And that is true, to some extent. However, they usually fail to factor in the time needed to do all that. I'd rather be putting time into existing relationships that work, my family, my hobbies than to be constantly on the hunt for new or "better" people. Sometimes settling down and concentrating on the bird(s) in hand is more productive, if that's your kettle of fish.

 

[IndieSolo]

Part of the reason many marriages end is because, while they may not be openly looking for new people, after enough time, they will randomly meet someone more compatible and start questioning their relationship. "Why isn't Joe more like Steve?" Open polyamory is like this, except you are putting yourself into the game over and over again, increasing chances of finding someone "better." However, polyamory at least gives you the option of being together in a group, which is a lot better than the monogamous path-- the end of the relationship.

I disagree that the "mono path" is the relationship ending, nor that meeting someone "better" is a major factor in mono relationships ending. Many times, situations like that can be an impetus for healing the relationship, because you see what's possible and start asking for it.

Also, if you're in a committed mono relationship, and meet someone else, compare them to your partner, and are tempted to leave, there usually is trouble brewing in the relationship already. The new person didn't cause it.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

If you're in a committed mono relationship, and meet someone else, compare them to your partner and are tempted to leave, there usually is trouble brewing in the relationship already. The new person didn't cause it.

I thought I would add a little real-life example of this. I'm not saying this is always the case, but in my case, NYCindie hit it right on the head.

When I had an affair, it was never about finding a "better" person to connect to. It was about consciously/subconsciously finding a person to connect to. I had lost my connection with my wife, which provided the opportunity for another to form. There was no overlap. There was already a void waiting to be filled. I'm mono. When I am connected to someone, that is it. The door is closed.

Every new beginning starts with some other beginning's end (taken right out of a song), and in that order. One ends before another can start.

For a truly poly person, every new beginning has the potential to enhance and propel any previous beginnings. There doesn't have to be an end.

 

[preciselove]

I disagree that the "mono path" is the relationship ending, nor that meeting someone "better" is a major factor in mono relationships ending. Many times, situations like that can be an impetus for healing the relationship, because you see what's possible and start asking for it. Also if you're in a committed mono relationship, and meets someone else, compare them to your partner, and are tempted to leave, there usually is trouble brewing in the relationship already. The new person didn't cause it.

Seeing that the average relationship lasts about ~7 months (at least from a few different sites I found) and marriage around ~7 years, why are all these mono relationships ending? I know there is no one answer. But a common thing you will find is someone struggling, who finds a catalyst to break up when they meet someone new.

It seems very common that when a relationship ends, at least one of the two people hop-step into another relationship almost immediately. The reason this occurs is because people generally don't like being alone, and prefer to wait until they have alternatives before making large decisions. Humans generally prefer to be in a poor relationship over being in no relationship.

 

[IndieSolo]

First of all, just because a relationship ends does not mean it wasn't a success. Not every relationship is meant to last forever.

Second of all, one can't really generalize that mono people jump right into something new. That is actually the opposite of the general mindset I see, which is you need to give yourself a certain time to heal before starting over with someone else. I mean, there are even formulas out there for figuring out how long to wait!

I started dating again not quite six months after my ex moved out, and am still self-conscious about how soon that was. Most people in my life react as if I shouldn't be dating yet, when I say how fresh my breakup is. So I don't know what you base your theories on. Maybe it's a regional or cultural thing. It's obvious that you feel polyamory is better than monoamory, but perhaps it might be more accurate to say it's better for you.

 

[preciselove]

First of all, just because a relationship ends does not mean it wasn't a success. Not every relationship is meant to last forever.

I think you'll find most people in the monogamy world go into most relationships hoping it will be "one that lasts forever." I'm not sure what the culture is where you are at, but besides people who are "bachelors for life," everyone I know that is mono is like this. It is also the image portrayed in TV and Hollywood. I believe it is the norm.

Second of all, one can't really generalize that mono people jump right into something new. That is actually the opposite of the general mindset I see, which is you need to give yourself a certain time to heal before starting over with someone else. I mean, there are even formulas out there for figuring out how long to wait! I started dating again not quite six months after my ex moved out, and am still self-conscious about how soon that was. Most people in my life react as if I shouldn't be dating yet, when I say how fresh my breakup is. So I don't know what you base your theories on. Maybe it's a regional or cultural thing.

Length of relationship might have some impact on how long some people wait. Has your ex moved on already? Most people in or associated with the poly community are far from "normal" (in what I believe is a good way). Hence, our personal experiences shouldn't be included in any generalization, I feel.

 

[IndieSolo]

I think you'll find most people in the monogamy world go into most relationships hoping it will be "one that lasts forever."

Well, shit, yeah. But that rarely happens! I didn't say no one hopes for it, just that lots of relationships are obviously not meant to last forever; otherwise, they would. My point was that the end of a relationship doesn't mean it failed, only that it ended. And relationships end for various and sundry reasons. It isn't "usually" due to one of the people having found someone else, and that causing it to end, which is what you were saying earlier in the thread.

Length of relationship might have some impact on how long some people wait.

Yeah, that's one of those formulas I mentioned.

Most people in or associated with the poly community are far from "normal" (in what I believe is a good way). Hence, our personal experiences shouldn't be included in any generalization, I feel.

I don't know what you mean here. I am new to polyamory, and only basing what I say on my lifelong experience as a monoamorous person. And my point is you can't really generalize, anyway. But your conclusions seem really off to me.