Allosexual husband of an asexual wife explores options

It’s amazing how taking sex off the table when one partner wants it and the other doesn’t can free you both up. You’ll no longer feel rejected and unloved in that way and she will no longer feel the stress around it.

It will also free you up to have a more intimate relationship as now you both will know that sex isnt going to happen so touching, cuddling and making out along with other intimate acts become enjoyable instead of something to fear.

Knowing a partner is going to want more makes the unwanting partner stop it all at the beginning. The stress of things possibly going too far and having to shut it down is stark. Its easier to just not go there. Ending that part of the relationship can be very healthy. Some time exploring more intimacy with her might also make her feel more secure in a poly type relationship.
That is my hope. In the past, I’ve craved some form of intimacy, so I’ve asked for cuddles in bed that are just cuddles and won’t progress beyond that. But that didn’t happen either. I would never have broken that pledge, and I’m sure she knows that, but in that case, sex was only off the table for those occasions, not altogether. I don’t know if she just didn’t want the intimacy either, or she feared that she would somehow accidentally send out signals that I would interpret as saying she wanted more, or she feared that she would in some way be leading me on, or frustrating me more.

Anyway, I do hope that if we take sex permanently off the table, she will be more relaxed, and I will be less frustrated, not always thinking “Is tonight the night?” only to be disappointed 364 days of the year.

I hope, too, that she realises that saying, "No sex with me, and no sex with anyone else either," is an unfair burden to put on me, and more immediately fatal to our marriage than embracing some form of ENM, even if she is worried about the emotional intimacy of polyamory.
 
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I hope too that she realises that saying no sex with me and no sex with anyone else either is an unfair burden to put on me and more immediately fatal to our marriage than embracing some form of ENM even if she is worried about the emotional intimacy of polyamory.
Reading this back, I realise it may sound like I’d be making some kind of ultimatum: “Accept ENM or I’m out of here." I certainly won’t be doing that. But at the same time, there are only so many possible outcomes, and ruling out sex and ENM leaves me with celibacy or divorce.
 
I don't think you need to feel guilty about presenting this as an ultimatum. There are plenty of things that your wife would receive universal support for in presenting a similar bottom line to you.

Let's say travelling was always something you shared as a couple, and then you stopped wanting to travel. Not only that, you wanted your wife to stop travelling altogether, because you didn't want her to share that with other people. It could only be a couple thing.

Nobody would support your wife in trying to make you continue travelling. They might present some alternatives: why not use a camper van rather than fly abroad? But they'd also not support you in forbidding her from travelling with other people. They might support you in alleviating some concerns: no travelling with exes/strangers/people who are into you, or doing regular checks-ins.
 
I don't think you need to feel guilty about presenting this as an ultimatum. There are plenty of things that your wife would receive universal support for, in presenting a similar bottom line to you.
You are right. I don’t want her to feel under pressure to accept something she’s not happy with. But if there are only 4 options, she rules out 1 (sex) and I rule out another (celibacy) that only leaves us with 2.

I don’t want to make her unhappy, but at the same time, while in many ways I have been happy, I’ve struggled with a fundamental unhappiness for over 30 years.
 
Someone asked me a question: if we had the talk and decided we were going to give poly a try, would both of us be poly, or would it be a poly/mono relationship?

My immediate thought was if she is asexual, she’s not going to want another relationship. But I quickly realised that sexual intimacy is not the only kind of intimacy. What if she wanted emotional intimacy with someone?

I have thought about this question and really tested out my reactions, as much as is possible in a hypothetical situation, especially because it helps me see this whole suggestion from her side.

The conclusion I’ve come to is that I love my wife very much, and I want her to be happy above all else. Why would I want to deny her any opportunity to increase her happiness if it doesn’t harm me? Since I totally buy into the idea that love is not a finite resource, her loving someone else does not of itself diminish her love for me. If her love for me does diminish (which I doubt would happen, you may disagree) it will not be because she ran out of love, used it all up somewhere else. It will be for other reasons.

I love our son very much. We only have one, but had we had two, do I think I would love them both half as much? No, I don’t.

She already has very close friendships with other people, which, if you’ve read my other posts, you’ll know I find as baffling as she possibly finds the desire for sex to be. How would it really differ if those relationships were that little bit deeper?

Now, the question of sex. Would I be happy for her to have sex with other people, even if I think the outcome (highly) unlikely? This is a tricky one. But what I’ve realised is that what would bother me is not her having sex with someone else, it would be her doing something with someone else that she isn’t doing with me. That would make her rejection of sex feel like a rejection of sex with me, and I don’t think I could live with that. Does that make sense? Is that unreasonable?

If somehow (and again, I’m not saying it’s likely) she realised a dormant sexual side of herself, and wanted to share it with me and someone else, I would be delighted for her and myself.

So, if we do decide to go down this route, it will be poly from both sides from the start, even if she chooses not to exercise that new right.
 
My immediate thought was if she is asexual she’s not going to want another relationship, but I quickly realised sexual intimacy is not the only kind of intimacy. What if she wanted emotional intimacy with someone?
Would I be happy for her to have sex with other people, even if I think the outcome (highly) unlikely?

The only times I've seen this happen is where one or both parties discover something significant about their sexuality that was causing the mismatch. It could be that they're gay. It could be that they are kinky. For instance, I've known a lot of women that realised sex wasn't working for them unless they immersed themselves in either a dominant or a submissive role. The type of sex they were experiencing with vanilla romantic partners just didn't do it for them, and they never imagined this sort of depravity would, but it is what it is.

But I'd say that most of those people definitely came from backgrounds where they didn't even think you could be "normal" and kinky. I think the majority of adults today would have some inclination if it was something to do with fetishism/kink.
 
The only times I've seen this happen is where one or both parties discover something significant about their sexuality that was causing the mismatch. It could be that they're gay. It could be that they are kinky. For instance, I've known a lot of women that realised sex wasn't working for them unless they immersed themselves in either a dominant or a submissive role. The type of sex they were experiencing with vanilla romantic partners just didn't do it for them and they never imagined this sort of depravity would, but it is what it is.

I have considered this possibility. I kind of dismissed it as wishful thinking, that somehow I could discover that what she really wanted was some kink, and she never asked for it because she thought I would be shocked or would think less of her, whereas I would enthusiastically join in virtually anything. The revelation would result in an “opening of the floodgates."

So, yeah. Seemed like wishful thinking.

I’ve also considered the possibility that she is heteroromantic, but homosexual. It took me a while to realise that was a thing. Perhaps if she is, that confuses her. After all, it is a long way from what most people, whether hetero or homosexual, experience. Maybe in that case an open relationship would allow her the best of both worlds, romantic love with me and freedom to explore sex with a woman. I think I could live with that, because she would be getting something I’m unable to provide.

But I'd say that most of those people definitely came from backgrounds where they didn't even think you could be "normal" and kinky. I think the majority of adults today would have some inclination if it was something to do with fetishism/kink.

I don’t rule out the idea that there could be something like this going on. That’s she thinks her thoughts, feelings and desires are “not normal” and to be suppressed. Again, I don’t say it’s likely, just not impossible.
 
Knowing a partner is going to want more makes the unwanting partner stop it all at the beginning.
That's huge. That's THE reason you let the slowest paced partner drive. In the end, if you state your desires and your boundaries and give up the control to your partner, you will make more progress with less resentment than if you give ultimatums and timelines. If you're used to being in the driver seat, it's a hard transition. But it means that whatever is possible is more likely to become reality. This is commonly called "reversing the chasing dynamic" in the couples literature. It works for a lot of couples issues and has clear applications to ENM transitions.

It also sets up the unfortunate appearance of "moving the goalposts". That's a common complaint from lower-interest partners, but it comes up most often when the higher-interest partner moves on to the next step toward their goals after reaching the goalpost once or worse... just before meeting them at all. So, the sentiment isn't unearned. My advice for avoiding that is a bit of internal work: savor the moment, don't worry about what's coming next, and don't pressure your partner with your most unrealistic goals. Let go of feelings of having wasted time or that you're running out of time. And above all, trust your partner wants you to be happy in your relationship with them.
The only times I've seen this happen is where one or both parties discover something significant about their sexuality that was causing the mismatch.
Maybe in that case an open relationship would allow her the best of both worlds
And what happens next? I hope we would all embrace the changes together, but maybe it requires a de-escalation to that relationship, but that doesn't have to be an awful process. Maybe it's something that can be integrated, like you say.

After all, isn't that one of the great gifts of breaking the bonds of serial monogamy?

Consider the Venn diagrams of needs fulfillment:
  • One circle: One person to provide for everything.
    • Well-matched monogamy at its best. Unsatisfied serial monogamy at its worst.
  • Many circles, more overlap: Multiple partners for multiple needs.
    • That might work for some situations, but especially with a mono-to-ENM transition, she's probably going to feel, at least once, "well, why do you need if from me if you're getting it from her?"
  • Many circles, less overlap: One partner to fulfill each set of needs with minimal overlap.
    • "I've found what I really want in this, but I still want what we have that works." (See previous comments on loyalty.)
Feels like there should be a name for that Venn principle, but I haven't encountered it yet.
 
And what happens next? I hope we would all embrace the changes together, but maybe it requires a de-escalation to that relationship, but that doesn't have to be an awful process. Maybe it's something that can be integrated, like you say.

After all, isn't that one of the great gifts of breaking the bonds of serial monogamy?

Well, I think the reality of that is that it depends. One of the most important factors is whether polyamory is still attractive when one has a fulfilling relationship. Many people simply find that polyamory isn't worth the energy expensed because the benefits simply don't pay off.

Then there's the bit where you have to consider your dating pool and the evolving needs of potential partners. A clean break in the traditional sense offers new partners the opportunity to forge their own life with you that isn't or shouldn't be dominated by the needs of ex partners.

If you prioritise "breaking the bonds of serial monogamy", it may mean look like holding significant ties to a well established but fundamentally incompatible partner and trying to build a more holistic life partnership around that.

I'm not saying it can't be done and all parties involved find fulfilment within that arrangement, but it's definitely going to be a pass from at least some of the people who would otherwise want to see what could happen between you.
 
I hope too that she realises that saying. "No sex with me, and no sex with anyone else either," is an unfair burden to put on me, and more immediately fatal to our marriage than embracing some form of ENM, even if she is worried about the emotional intimacy of polyamory
If she loves you, she would want you to be happy and satisfied. If she is okay with you suffering, I’d rethink the relationship. Is her being selfish at your expense a loving, healthy relationship? Or is she just trying to control you because of perceived ownership?
Reading this back, I realise it may sound like I’d be making some kind of ultimatum: “Accept ENM or I’m out of here." I certainly won’t be doing that. But at the same time, there are only so many possible outcomes, and ruling out sex and ENM leaves me with celibacy or divorce.
The reality is, there will be ultimatums here. Either you will be able to have sexual relationships outside of the marriage (assuming she won’t do it with you) and be fulfilled (your ultimatum), or she will control your ability to be happy at your expense (her ultimatum), or the marriage will end. Those are the three options.

You know you’ll be unhappy if you continue to have no sex with her or anyone else. At this point, you might be able to go a bit longer. But from my experience, by the time someone has the guts to say what’s needed, it’s almost a last-ditch effort. You need to really dig deep and answer if you can go on forever like this. If the answer is "No," then you will need to let her know that.

What would bother me is not her having sex with someone else, it is her doing something with someone else that she isn’t doing with me. That would make her rejection of sex feel like a rejection of sex with me, and I don’t think I could live with that.
I lived this experience, and it was very hurtful. In the end, I realized that we didn’t have the relationship I thought we had, and that he was just as unhappy as I was. It had nothing to do with mismatched sex drives or desires, in my case. He just did not have sexual desire for me. The chemistry was off.

I have no doubt that he loved me and he still does. We still have a relationship and still live together. Now we are happy for each other. I had to grieve the relationship that I wanted, and accept the relationship that we have to move past that.
 
If she loves you, she would want you to be happy and satisfied. If she is okay with you suffering, I’d rethink the relationship. Is her being selfish at your expense a loving, healthy relationship? Or is she just trying to control you because of perceived ownership?

Yes, this is the mental position I have arrived at. If she can see the hurt this causes me, and yet chooses to allow it to continue, does she really love me as much as I think she does? I think not. What then would I be fighting to keep, apart from a co-parenting solution, that would suck the soul right out of me in time?

You know you’ll be unhappy if you continue no sex with her or anyone else. At this point, you might be able to go a bit longer. But from my experience, by the time someone has the guts to say what’s needed, it’s almost a last-ditch effort. You need to really dig deep and answer if you can go on forever like this. If the answer is "No," then you will need to let her know that.

You’re right. I am very happy in so many ways, but this unhappiness pervades everything and poisons everything. Over the last few weeks, I have dug deep and I am certain the answer is, "No, I can’t and I won’t go on like this." I need to have sex with or without her, and if, as I suspect, the former isn’t possible, then it needs to be the latter. And that either happens in some form of ENM and we keep the marriage together, or it’s the beginning of the end of the marriage.

I had to grieve the relationship that I wanted and accept the relationship that we have to move past that.

I’m sorry you had that experience, but I’m glad you’ve reached a place that works for you both. I would much rather grieve a relationship that is forever changed, but still fundamentally intact, than grieve the complete loss of the relationship. But that is up to her.
 
I had my second session with my new therapist. We talked about what stops me from speaking to Joy about sex. I explained some of the things I've mentioned above: my upbringing to put others' feelings ahead of my own, my potential autism and difficulty expressing myself, especially concerning emotions, and my perfectionism holding me back from having a conversation I expect to be less than perfect, at a time I consider less than perfect.

We talked some more about that and the roots of it. I think a factor may be that in the '70s when I first went to school, things like autism and ADHD were not well understood, certainly not by classroom practitioners, hence I have never had a diagnosis of either. I have specific memories of making what now and to everyone else seem like stupid mistakes, and the teacher laughing, which I at least perceived to be her laughing at me. Certainly I felt humiliated as a five year old. I don't know that I can blame all of my idiosyncrasies on a few incidents in my formative years, but these memories are raw and relatively close to the surface, even almost 50 years later, so they must have had some pretty significant impact on me.

We talked about how I'm not good at initiating conversations. I'm happy to participate, but someone else needs to initiate it. I'm not good at participating in conversations with large groups. I never know when to come in. There never seems to be a break in conversation that I can squeeze my thought into, whereas everyone else seems to be able to find space to get their point heard.

The conversations I do initiate tend to be about something tangible or to have a purpose, like yesterday our heating broke down and we had a conversation about what we need to do. I can talk in work about work issues, but I find general chit chat challenging unless its about a subject I know about. So I could have long discussions over electronegativity trends in the periodic table, or the wave particle duality in quantum mechanics (fortunately my son is studying Chemistry and Physics at school, so I get opportunities to talk about these things!). I feel secure talking about things that I know, and know that I'm good at. My academic qualifications give me confidence to talk about these things.

I have always been able to talk in work about technical aspects of my job (which is quite maths-based). As I've progressed up the ladder, conversations were less about the technical stuff and more about management, but while I found that difficult at first, I got over it, and would say I'm now good at it. I think because I'm able to keep emotions out of it, I've been able to have even very difficult conversations at work about performance or redundancy and those conversations have gone well.

I do still, from time to time, find myself sitting in a meeting thinking about a great idea, but not saying it, only for someone else to voice a watered-down and inferior version of my idea and everyone jumping on it as the best idea of the day, to which my idea when I do express it is seen just as a build on someone else's good idea. This happens less these days, but still happens.

As I became more senior, I'd have to do social things. My company organised long service-awards dinners and employee of the month/year dinners, and as a senior leader I would have to host a table. I dreaded that at first, but I became better at it in time. But I still feel more like I'm playing a part. I have learned some lines and I'm able to improvise around those lines to sound like a "real person."

At home, when we chat, my wife is quite chatty, whereas I'm happy to remain in silence if I don't have anything to say. Although I don't fit the title of the song, I still empathise with the Talking Heads song Psycho Killer and the lines:

You start a conversation, you can't even finish it
You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
Say something once, why say it again?

I gave an example of how my wife often talks about her work at home. I rarely do. I realise now that when she is talking about work, she's talking about people, with work as context. When I talk about work, I'm talking about work, with people as context. And frankly, who is interested in my work, especially when it's something that isn't well understood by my wife and must bore her to death?

Back to the perfectionism. The above is related to having conversations about things that I perceive I'm "good" at, and I'm "bad" at emotions, or conveying and understanding them. Towards the end of our session, my therapist pointed out I had spent the previous three quarters of an hour openly talking with her about how I felt. Some of that no doubt is about her ability to open people up, but I've come to a conclusion.

It's like many other things. It's practice. It won't get better without practice. It may still never become second nature to me, but just like those dinner conversations at work, it doesn't mean I can't get better by consciously trying. I think I couldn't have had the conversation with my therapist if I hadn't started trying to verbalise these thoughts here. The internet is a great thing. It's asynchronous. I can sit here and type on my keyboard. There's no one in front of me. People are at a two-step remove, but they are there. When they respond, I don't need to have my own response immediately available. I can spend some time thinking about it, crafting how I say it, re-reading and correcting and doing my best to ensure the words I use express what I mean.

I think that helped me practice for talking to my therapist. She's at a one-step remove. She's a real person that I'm interacting with in real time, but she's outside of my personal world. I can end the call, or never set up another session, and she's not personally involved in my situation. I think that's helping me practice more for a conversation with Joy. A real time conversation with the other person intimately involved in the situation-- I might not be quite there yet, but I'm getting there.

And to those of you on here who have helped, who have supported, who have questioned or given the benefit of your experience, I thank you. Without you I would still be floundering. Know this-- you have done some real good for at least one person.
If you would like some conversation practice I am also in Central Scotland. I’m in a stable polyamorous relationship and one of my partners has a lot of difficulty expressing himself and is somewhat asexual. So we have something in common there although I have had a sexual partner for the last three years, lucky me! Whilst I also have ‘autistic traits’ I’m good at conversations, unravelling complexity, and don’t bite! So if you’d like a real life chat do message me.
 
Now the question of sex. Would I be happy for her to have sex with other people, even if I think the outcome (highly) unlikely? This is a tricky one, but what I’ve realised is that what would bother me is not her having sex with someone else it is her doing something with someone else that she isn’t doing with me. That would make her rejection of sex feel like a rejection of sex with me and I don’t think I could live with that. Does that make sense? Is that unreasonable?
It’s not unreasonable - that is a really hard place to be in. It can be navigated - my husband isn’t completely asexual but is not wildly interested in me - if anything I’d guess he’s freysexual, as when he has the opportunity for “new” his libido goes up. Weirdly it’s helped for me to see that that’s been a pattern with other partners - it becomes FAR less “this is personal” and more a thing I can accept as you do your wife’s asexuality. (Also, I will say that it is FAR easier to accept that your spouse and you aren’t particularly sexually compatible when you are also with someone who IS compatible in that way. Not to rub it in, but to say there’s hope on the other side.)
 
I want to just add the the idea that Fogul's wife might not be asexual. I am not sure that has truly been tested yet. It's possible that she does have a sex drive, but as has been said, the chemistry with Fogul is off. However, since there was no "honeymoon" period, even in the beginning, it seems more likely that she's on the asexual spectrum.

I hadn't heard the term freysexual before. So that means people who only/mostly get turned on by someone new-- fresh meat, so to speak? Is that inbuilt, or just a fear of emotional commitment, or maybe both? I know nowadays the young adult generation is supposed to be in "hookup culture," where one-night stands or fuckbuddies are the norm/accepted/desired. I guess some people are that way, and others are completely the opposite: they can only have sex with someone familiar and trusted.

I myself can have sex, and enjoy it, with a relative stranger, but I hate one-night stands, and I have much better sex with someone I love deeply.

Anyway, I could see how it could really hurt if Fogul's wife would be willing or eager to have sex with someone else, but not with him. However, it's pretty much built-in, biologically, to be turned on by the novelty of someone new. I remember an experiment I read about, where a male and a female rat (who was ovulating) were put together. They proceeded to have repeated bouts of sex until, seemingly exhausted, they went to their corners to groom themselves. But as soon as the female was taken out and another provided, the male revived and mated with her. This same pattern was repeated with multiple females until the male finally just passed out.
 
It’s been a while since I updated this. I’ve spent the time working everything through in my head and with my therapist. With my therapist’s help I’ve worked out a framework for a conversation. It’s not a script, because you can only do that if you’re able to script both sides of the conversation.

Its framework for how to move through the conversation, with some opening lines and some prompts for things to say.

It’s enough to get my dysfunctional brain over the paralysing fear of not knowing how the conversation will go. Obviously I still don’t know what Joy will say, but I know I’m prepared and have thought of at least a few likely outcomes.

I finally feel ready to start the long awaited conversation.

But now life has got in the way. A few months back we were facing down what looked likely to be a bit of a crisis. At that time the fates, a higher power, chance or just plain old life came to our rescue and turned what could have been disaster into an opportunity that has worked out to be a blessing.

Now however, just when I’ve finally got all my ducks in a row life has thrown us a curve ball. Now we’re dealing with a stressful situation, actually more than one unrelated stressful situations. Right now we’re both too stressed and emotionally wrung out to add anything else into the mix, neither of us have the capacity that right now.

All of these situations are things that will resolve themselves in time, they’re not going to be permanent factors. It’s been over 31 years I’ve waited. I can wait a few more weeks or even months if that’s what it takes. I know that I’ve done the prep, I’m ready when these situations are resolved.

It’s funny how sometimes life works like that. Someone should write a song about that.

Oh right someone did, even if they mangled the English language a little in the process. Thank you Alanis Morrissette:

Well, life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
When you think everything's okay and everything's going right
And life has a funny way of helping you out
When you think everything's gone wrong
And everything blows up in your face
 
Sometimes when we don’t change; if we cling on to the status quo; hide and hope for the best… life just gets impatient and cracks us open anyway. Often with a far bigger hammer than if we’d done it ourselves! Change is an immutable force [sic], like death and taxes, and we try to prevent it at our own peril.

Sometimes it feels as if a coming change is a volcano before it erupts. The surface keeps erupting with smaller geysers and lava bubbles that get bigger and bigger, until finally it blows. So often crises with work, family, kids are a hidden issue (that needs to change) ‘acting out’. I personally can never stand the suspense and prefer the damn thing to blow so I can deal with the consequences and reach new ground sooner. But that’s just me!

I hear you that, with other challenges to face, you think delaying is kinder. Does that then risk drawing the period of overall turmoil out - “I’ve only just got over X and now I have to cope with Y”?

Will life ever stop challenging you with crises and changes? Can we really ‘choose our moments’? Can we actually protect others from the pain of change? Is there ever a ‘right time’? So many questions - so little time on earth, lol. C’est la vie!
 
To a Mouse, by Robert Burns (last few stanzas)

That small heap of leaves and stubble,
Has cost you many a weary nibble!
Now you are turned out, for all your trouble,
Without house or holding,
To endure the winter's sleety drizzle
And hoar-frost cold.

But little mouse, you are not alone,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best-laid schemes of mice and men
Go often awry,
And leave us nothing but grief and pain
For promised joy!

Still, you are blessed, compared with me!
The present only touches you.
But oh! I backward cast my eye
On prospects dreary,
And forward, though I cannot see,
I guess and fear!
 
I hear you that, with other challenges to face, you think delaying is kinder. Does that then risk drawing the period of overall turmoil out - “I’ve only just got over X and now I have to cope with Y”?

Will life ever stop challenging you with crises and changes? Can we really ‘choose our moments’? Can we actually protect others from the pain of change? Is there ever a ‘right time’? So many questions - so little time on earth, lol. C’est la vie!

Food for thought. Even after all the work I’ve done at I still making excuses and lying to myself about the rationale for not speaking up sooner?
 
To a Mouse, by Robert Burns (last few stanzas)
You can always get the attention of a Scotsman with our national bard, although the anglicisation of the language is slightly jarring to me. As I learned it many years ago:

That wee-bit heap o’ leaves an’ stibble
Has cost thee monie a weary nibble!
Now thou’s turn’d out, for a’ thy trouble,
But house or hald,
To thole the Winter’s sleety dribble,
An’ cranreuch cauld!

But Mousie, thou art no thy-lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men
Gang aft agley,
An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
For promis’d joy!

Still, thou art blest, compar’d wi’ me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e’e,
On prospects drear!
An’ forward tho’ I canna see,
I guess an’ fear!
 
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