Oh, I imagine so, but after that it stops being my plan and becomes our plan. One that we create together, and both have equal responsibility for executing.
Allosexual husband of an asexual wife explores options
- Thread starter Fogul
- Start date
Sounds like a sensible plan.
View it as an "initial conversation," though. Likely it is going to be a series of conversations. People need to eat, sleep, work, play, etc. They can't be doing all this processing stuff 24/7. YKWIM? It's okay to set a time to do some work on it once a week, like Fridays from 8-9 PM, and then live your regular life the rest of the time, until the next Friday. And sometimes you might have to do it with your counselor present to help guide you.
Galagirl
View it as an "initial conversation," though. Likely it is going to be a series of conversations. People need to eat, sleep, work, play, etc. They can't be doing all this processing stuff 24/7. YKWIM? It's okay to set a time to do some work on it once a week, like Fridays from 8-9 PM, and then live your regular life the rest of the time, until the next Friday. And sometimes you might have to do it with your counselor present to help guide you.
Galagirl
I had to look up on the internet what “YKWIM?” means (which is ironic), but yes. I do.
That first conversation I don’t see as the end. That’s the start of a process. Everything I’m doing now is what I need to do to get me to the start. Once we get there I’ve got a lot more work to do to get to the end, and so does she.
I’m conscious too that when we have that first conversation I’ll have had all this time to research, to think about things, to sort through my emotions about things and to imagine different possible scenarios. My wife will not have had that. She’ll have however long between when we set a date and the date itself.
There’s a disparity in preparation there that will need time to address.
I don’t know why I couldn’t see it before, but something I wrote on Saturday after my session with the therapist just kept going round and round in my head afterwards. I’m a perfectionist. Why am I a perfectionist? I don’t know. It’s sure as hell not because I’m perfect. I’m far from it.
Why is that relevant here? Well, because when I know that I can’t make something perfect, I have a tendency not to try at all. Somewhere hardwired in the back of my brain is the idea that if I don’t try then I can’t fail. It’s better never to try than to try and fail, because failure is just not good enough. And by extension, therefore, I’m not good enough.
That’s a fine approach for some things. I’ve never failed to learn to play piano, because I’ve never tried. That’s okay. There no need for me to play piano. However for some things, like this, failing to try is itself a failure. That bit of hardwiring in my brain still can’t make that connection. I’m avoiding failure through avoiding trying, but by doing so I’m failing all the more. Sometimes something done imperfectly is better than it not being done at all, actually, more like always.
So I put things off. I may not be able to do things perfectly, but I can at least ignore the fuck out of them pretty close to perfectly!
I’ve struggled against this in my professional life, and still do, this tendency not to start things if I don’t know I can do it perfectly. On the whole, it’s been a successful struggle in that sphere of my life. At least, I’ve been met with success in my professional life, if that’s any measure.
It’s odd. I don’t project that need for perfection onto anyone else. I understand that other people are not perfect and can’t be, because literally no one is. I make allowances for others that I don’t make for myself. I hold myself up against that unachievable standard and find myself wanting every time. Therefore, I can’t love myself, because I fall short of the standard I’ve set for myself. And if I can’t love myself, then maybe I’m not deserving of love at all.
Perhaps that’s the real reason why I don’t have friends. Groucho Marx once said something along the lines of “I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." Perhaps I choose not to be friends with anyone who would be friends with me. Maybe in the back of my head there’s an unsaid thought that there must be something wrong with anyone who would want to be my friend.
Why am I that way? I don’t know. I think I was just born that way. That faulty wiring inside my head. Although maybe that’s just my compulsive need to take the blame for everything again.
At primary school (5-12 yrs old) I was one of the dumb kids. I was always either the top of the remedial section or the bottom of the ordinary section. My older brother was the clever one. Articulate, good with words and people, extroverted, played guitar and sang. I was thick. Thick and introverted.
Then I went to secondary school and started doing science. It turned out I wasn’t thick at all. I was actually pretty smart. And in fact, I educationally proved that by going on to complete a PhD. I’ve since had a very successful career with a number of senior-level jobs.
Once while I was in secondary school I went home and told my parents I had got 99% in a chemistry test. My dad joked with me by asking where I dropped the 1%. That stung. I don’t say that as if to suggest that one comment from my dad caused my issues with perfectionism. Rather it stung so much because by that stage I was already a perfectionist, and although outwardly I was pleased with 99%, I was inwardly kicking myself for messing up the 1%, so his joke hit a nerve.
I think my need for perfection explains why I’ve gone so long and raised the issue of sex so infrequently. I know the conversation won’t be perfect and so, rather than have an imperfect conversation, I find ways to avoid having it in the first place.
Waiting for the perfect time to have “the conversation” is just another example of my perfectionism. There’s always one reason or another why now is not the perfect time, and the perfect time will come along at some unspecified point in the future. Of course it never does, because there is no perfect time. It doesn’t exist, except in my mixed-up imagination.
How do I overcome this? At this point I genuinely don’t know. What I do know is either I do overcome it or I doom myself to perpetually repeat the same mistakes.
Why is that relevant here? Well, because when I know that I can’t make something perfect, I have a tendency not to try at all. Somewhere hardwired in the back of my brain is the idea that if I don’t try then I can’t fail. It’s better never to try than to try and fail, because failure is just not good enough. And by extension, therefore, I’m not good enough.
That’s a fine approach for some things. I’ve never failed to learn to play piano, because I’ve never tried. That’s okay. There no need for me to play piano. However for some things, like this, failing to try is itself a failure. That bit of hardwiring in my brain still can’t make that connection. I’m avoiding failure through avoiding trying, but by doing so I’m failing all the more. Sometimes something done imperfectly is better than it not being done at all, actually, more like always.
So I put things off. I may not be able to do things perfectly, but I can at least ignore the fuck out of them pretty close to perfectly!
I’ve struggled against this in my professional life, and still do, this tendency not to start things if I don’t know I can do it perfectly. On the whole, it’s been a successful struggle in that sphere of my life. At least, I’ve been met with success in my professional life, if that’s any measure.
It’s odd. I don’t project that need for perfection onto anyone else. I understand that other people are not perfect and can’t be, because literally no one is. I make allowances for others that I don’t make for myself. I hold myself up against that unachievable standard and find myself wanting every time. Therefore, I can’t love myself, because I fall short of the standard I’ve set for myself. And if I can’t love myself, then maybe I’m not deserving of love at all.
Perhaps that’s the real reason why I don’t have friends. Groucho Marx once said something along the lines of “I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." Perhaps I choose not to be friends with anyone who would be friends with me. Maybe in the back of my head there’s an unsaid thought that there must be something wrong with anyone who would want to be my friend.
Why am I that way? I don’t know. I think I was just born that way. That faulty wiring inside my head. Although maybe that’s just my compulsive need to take the blame for everything again.
At primary school (5-12 yrs old) I was one of the dumb kids. I was always either the top of the remedial section or the bottom of the ordinary section. My older brother was the clever one. Articulate, good with words and people, extroverted, played guitar and sang. I was thick. Thick and introverted.
Then I went to secondary school and started doing science. It turned out I wasn’t thick at all. I was actually pretty smart. And in fact, I educationally proved that by going on to complete a PhD. I’ve since had a very successful career with a number of senior-level jobs.
Once while I was in secondary school I went home and told my parents I had got 99% in a chemistry test. My dad joked with me by asking where I dropped the 1%. That stung. I don’t say that as if to suggest that one comment from my dad caused my issues with perfectionism. Rather it stung so much because by that stage I was already a perfectionist, and although outwardly I was pleased with 99%, I was inwardly kicking myself for messing up the 1%, so his joke hit a nerve.
I think my need for perfection explains why I’ve gone so long and raised the issue of sex so infrequently. I know the conversation won’t be perfect and so, rather than have an imperfect conversation, I find ways to avoid having it in the first place.
Waiting for the perfect time to have “the conversation” is just another example of my perfectionism. There’s always one reason or another why now is not the perfect time, and the perfect time will come along at some unspecified point in the future. Of course it never does, because there is no perfect time. It doesn’t exist, except in my mixed-up imagination.
How do I overcome this? At this point I genuinely don’t know. What I do know is either I do overcome it or I doom myself to perpetually repeat the same mistakes.
It's why I mentioned ADHD for your consideration, and that you might be Autistic + ADHD. The people in my life who have just ADHD or both autism and ADHD struggle with perfectionism, having a hard time getting things started, school and/or work things, conflict avoidance, etc. Their brains are wired differently.
You might enjoy reading "Secrets of the Autistic Millionaire" and "Dirty Laundry" to see if anything resonates.
GG
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I've only recently come to realise there were different types of ADHD. I though ADHD always came with impulse control and hyperactivty issues, which I do not have. I've since learned that there are three types:
1 Inattentive and distractible type.
2 Impulsive/hyperactive type.
3 Combined type.
And of these only the last two are characterised by impulsive and hyperactive behaviours. The first does seem to fit me fairly well.
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Way back in my 20s, I did a self-actualization workshop over a long weekend, and I still remember one thing we were taught: to do one hard/scary thing every day. To step outside the box. To take that risk, fully knowing we might stumble, expecting it, even.
Growth happens on the edge of your comfort zone. Change is hard and scary, but if we're not changing, we're stagnating.
Growth happens on the edge of your comfort zone. Change is hard and scary, but if we're not changing, we're stagnating.
SoUnexpected
New member
Fogul, I totally get this! Kindred soul here. New here; not ready to say more. *smile* But, yes, the struggle is real.
Reading about your autism, I can't help but wonder again whether that is one of the factors that predisposes people to (considering) polyamory, or at least adopting the 'polyamorous' label and philosophy. That's because 1) autistic people tend to not give a damn about social pressure, and 2) polyamorous philosophy and texts tend to be very structured, bringing both all these lofty ideals and definitions into the mess that is human relating. Our local poly group was started by a theoretical physicist (like myself), so of course programmers and other structured minds were very present...
I think the analytically inclined mind is more likely to deconstruct social structures such as monogamy. I also think it needs to create a different structure immediately. I think another groups, such as artists, will gravitate towards non-monogamous relationships, but will not read polyamorous litterature or identify as polyamorous as readily. They will use much more intuition then rules when navigating love and hurt.
So that was a random assembly of thoughts. For what it's worth, there was a time when I thought about whether I was on the spectrum too. I am probably not deep into it, because I tend to get metaphores and sarcasm just fine, but I may have some of the traits. I'm probably what some sources would call 'gifted' today, adding that the mix of intellectual, emotional, sensoric and other overexcitabilities that come with that neurodivergent trait can hardly be called a gift.
There's no point to this, maybe just that you certainly won't be alone being on the spectrum in this community. I don't think choosing this (quite analytical!) forum is a coincidence.
It may however bring unique and extra challenges - emotions even more sweeping or lack thereof, reading guidelines too literal and overlooking the actuality of people's emotions in the situation, difficulty finding compatible partners, possible autistic burnout from being overwhelmed by complex social interactions, possibly an extra layer of misunderstanding with your wife - some that come to mind with my limited knowledge. It may also bring advantages, such as overcomming difficult situation with being truthful and principled as you seem to be.
It's good that you are aware.
I think the analytically inclined mind is more likely to deconstruct social structures such as monogamy. I also think it needs to create a different structure immediately. I think another groups, such as artists, will gravitate towards non-monogamous relationships, but will not read polyamorous litterature or identify as polyamorous as readily. They will use much more intuition then rules when navigating love and hurt.
So that was a random assembly of thoughts. For what it's worth, there was a time when I thought about whether I was on the spectrum too. I am probably not deep into it, because I tend to get metaphores and sarcasm just fine, but I may have some of the traits. I'm probably what some sources would call 'gifted' today, adding that the mix of intellectual, emotional, sensoric and other overexcitabilities that come with that neurodivergent trait can hardly be called a gift.
There's no point to this, maybe just that you certainly won't be alone being on the spectrum in this community. I don't think choosing this (quite analytical!) forum is a coincidence.
It may however bring unique and extra challenges - emotions even more sweeping or lack thereof, reading guidelines too literal and overlooking the actuality of people's emotions in the situation, difficulty finding compatible partners, possible autistic burnout from being overwhelmed by complex social interactions, possibly an extra layer of misunderstanding with your wife - some that come to mind with my limited knowledge. It may also bring advantages, such as overcomming difficult situation with being truthful and principled as you seem to be.
It's good that you are aware.
I had my second session with my new therapist. We talked about what stops me from speaking to Joy about sex. I explained some of the things I've mentioned above: my upbringing to put others' feelings ahead of my own, my potential autism and difficulty expressing myself, especially concerning emotions, and my perfectionism holding me back from having a conversation I expect to be less than perfect, at a time I consider less than perfect.
We talked some more about that and the roots of it. I think a factor may be that in the '70s when I first went to school, things like autism and ADHD were not well understood, certainly not by classroom practitioners, hence I have never had a diagnosis of either. I have specific memories of making what now and to everyone else seem like stupid mistakes, and the teacher laughing, which I at least perceived to be her laughing at me. Certainly I felt humiliated as a five year old. I don't know that I can blame all of my idiosyncrasies on a few incidents in my formative years, but these memories are raw and relatively close to the surface, even almost 50 years later, so they must have had some pretty significant impact on me.
We talked about how I'm not good at initiating conversations. I'm happy to participate, but someone else needs to initiate it. I'm not good at participating in conversations with large groups. I never know when to come in. There never seems to be a break in conversation that I can squeeze my thought into, whereas everyone else seems to be able to find space to get their point heard.
The conversations I do initiate tend to be about something tangible or to have a purpose, like yesterday our heating broke down and we had a conversation about what we need to do. I can talk in work about work issues, but I find general chit chat challenging unless its about a subject I know about. So I could have long discussions over electronegativity trends in the periodic table, or the wave particle duality in quantum mechanics (fortunately my son is studying Chemistry and Physics at school, so I get opportunities to talk about these things!). I feel secure talking about things that I know, and know that I'm good at. My academic qualifications give me confidence to talk about these things.
I have always been able to talk in work about technical aspects of my job (which is quite maths-based). As I've progressed up the ladder, conversations were less about the technical stuff and more about management, but while I found that difficult at first, I got over it, and would say I'm now good at it. I think because I'm able to keep emotions out of it, I've been able to have even very difficult conversations at work about performance or redundancy and those conversations have gone well.
I do still, from time to time, find myself sitting in a meeting thinking about a great idea, but not saying it, only for someone else to voice a watered-down and inferior version of my idea and everyone jumping on it as the best idea of the day, to which my idea when I do express it is seen just as a build on someone else's good idea. This happens less these days, but still happens.
As I became more senior, I'd have to do social things. My company organised long service-awards dinners and employee of the month/year dinners, and as a senior leader I would have to host a table. I dreaded that at first, but I became better at it in time. But I still feel more like I'm playing a part. I have learned some lines and I'm able to improvise around those lines to sound like a "real person."
At home, when we chat, my wife is quite chatty, whereas I'm happy to remain in silence if I don't have anything to say. Although I don't fit the title of the song, I still empathise with the Talking Heads song Psycho Killer and the lines:
I gave an example of how my wife often talks about her work at home. I rarely do. I realise now that when she is talking about work, she's talking about people, with work as context. When I talk about work, I'm talking about work, with people as context. And frankly, who is interested in my work, especially when it's something that isn't well understood by my wife and must bore her to death?
Back to the perfectionism. The above is related to having conversations about things that I perceive I'm "good" at, and I'm "bad" at emotions, or conveying and understanding them. Towards the end of our session, my therapist pointed out I had spent the previous three quarters of an hour openly talking with her about how I felt. Some of that no doubt is about her ability to open people up, but I've come to a conclusion.
It's like many other things. It's practice. It won't get better without practice. It may still never become second nature to me, but just like those dinner conversations at work, it doesn't mean I can't get better by consciously trying. I think I couldn't have had the conversation with my therapist if I hadn't started trying to verbalise these thoughts here. The internet is a great thing. It's asynchronous. I can sit here and type on my keyboard. There's no one in front of me. People are at a two-step remove, but they are there. When they respond, I don't need to have my own response immediately available. I can spend some time thinking about it, crafting how I say it, re-reading and correcting and doing my best to ensure the words I use express what I mean.
I think that helped me practice for talking to my therapist. She's at a one-step remove. She's a real person that I'm interacting with in real time, but she's outside of my personal world. I can end the call, or never set up another session, and she's not personally involved in my situation. I think that's helping me practice more for a conversation with Joy. A real time conversation with the other person intimately involved in the situation-- I might not be quite there yet, but I'm getting there.
And to those of you on here who have helped, who have supported, who have questioned or given the benefit of your experience, I thank you. Without you I would still be floundering. Know this-- you have done some real good for at least one person.
We talked some more about that and the roots of it. I think a factor may be that in the '70s when I first went to school, things like autism and ADHD were not well understood, certainly not by classroom practitioners, hence I have never had a diagnosis of either. I have specific memories of making what now and to everyone else seem like stupid mistakes, and the teacher laughing, which I at least perceived to be her laughing at me. Certainly I felt humiliated as a five year old. I don't know that I can blame all of my idiosyncrasies on a few incidents in my formative years, but these memories are raw and relatively close to the surface, even almost 50 years later, so they must have had some pretty significant impact on me.
We talked about how I'm not good at initiating conversations. I'm happy to participate, but someone else needs to initiate it. I'm not good at participating in conversations with large groups. I never know when to come in. There never seems to be a break in conversation that I can squeeze my thought into, whereas everyone else seems to be able to find space to get their point heard.
The conversations I do initiate tend to be about something tangible or to have a purpose, like yesterday our heating broke down and we had a conversation about what we need to do. I can talk in work about work issues, but I find general chit chat challenging unless its about a subject I know about. So I could have long discussions over electronegativity trends in the periodic table, or the wave particle duality in quantum mechanics (fortunately my son is studying Chemistry and Physics at school, so I get opportunities to talk about these things!). I feel secure talking about things that I know, and know that I'm good at. My academic qualifications give me confidence to talk about these things.
I have always been able to talk in work about technical aspects of my job (which is quite maths-based). As I've progressed up the ladder, conversations were less about the technical stuff and more about management, but while I found that difficult at first, I got over it, and would say I'm now good at it. I think because I'm able to keep emotions out of it, I've been able to have even very difficult conversations at work about performance or redundancy and those conversations have gone well.
I do still, from time to time, find myself sitting in a meeting thinking about a great idea, but not saying it, only for someone else to voice a watered-down and inferior version of my idea and everyone jumping on it as the best idea of the day, to which my idea when I do express it is seen just as a build on someone else's good idea. This happens less these days, but still happens.
As I became more senior, I'd have to do social things. My company organised long service-awards dinners and employee of the month/year dinners, and as a senior leader I would have to host a table. I dreaded that at first, but I became better at it in time. But I still feel more like I'm playing a part. I have learned some lines and I'm able to improvise around those lines to sound like a "real person."
At home, when we chat, my wife is quite chatty, whereas I'm happy to remain in silence if I don't have anything to say. Although I don't fit the title of the song, I still empathise with the Talking Heads song Psycho Killer and the lines:
You start a conversation, you can't even finish it
You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
Say something once, why say it again?
You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
Say something once, why say it again?
I gave an example of how my wife often talks about her work at home. I rarely do. I realise now that when she is talking about work, she's talking about people, with work as context. When I talk about work, I'm talking about work, with people as context. And frankly, who is interested in my work, especially when it's something that isn't well understood by my wife and must bore her to death?
Back to the perfectionism. The above is related to having conversations about things that I perceive I'm "good" at, and I'm "bad" at emotions, or conveying and understanding them. Towards the end of our session, my therapist pointed out I had spent the previous three quarters of an hour openly talking with her about how I felt. Some of that no doubt is about her ability to open people up, but I've come to a conclusion.
It's like many other things. It's practice. It won't get better without practice. It may still never become second nature to me, but just like those dinner conversations at work, it doesn't mean I can't get better by consciously trying. I think I couldn't have had the conversation with my therapist if I hadn't started trying to verbalise these thoughts here. The internet is a great thing. It's asynchronous. I can sit here and type on my keyboard. There's no one in front of me. People are at a two-step remove, but they are there. When they respond, I don't need to have my own response immediately available. I can spend some time thinking about it, crafting how I say it, re-reading and correcting and doing my best to ensure the words I use express what I mean.
I think that helped me practice for talking to my therapist. She's at a one-step remove. She's a real person that I'm interacting with in real time, but she's outside of my personal world. I can end the call, or never set up another session, and she's not personally involved in my situation. I think that's helping me practice more for a conversation with Joy. A real time conversation with the other person intimately involved in the situation-- I might not be quite there yet, but I'm getting there.
And to those of you on here who have helped, who have supported, who have questioned or given the benefit of your experience, I thank you. Without you I would still be floundering. Know this-- you have done some real good for at least one person.
Albert Ross
Well-known member
Hey. I'm a couple decades younger, sounds like (I went to school in the '90s), but I relate to this so hard. Only realized my own probable AuDHD this past year. A lot fell into place. I see you, stranger.
I've got my next therapy session later this afternoon. Since my last one I've been thinking about all of the reasons I do not start the much needed conversation, and I've already discussed many of them here. One of the reasons I mentioned was fear of her reaction. Fear that she would be terribly hurt that I had even considered polyamory. That fear is still there, but I realised my fear is about another reaction I anticipate she'll have. Guilt.
I'm going to have to lay out for her the frustration, the feelings of rejection, feeling that I am undesirable and inadequate and the hurt I've felt over the last 30 years. I know that no matter what I say she's going to feel a huge amount of guilt for having caused me those feelings, because she absolutely does love me. I'm sure on some level she already knows all of this, but that just makes it worse I think. When you have to face into something you've known all along, but pushed to the back of your head because you didn't want to have to deal with it it's doubly hard because you can't say you didn't know. Even if she can't know the strength of my feelings until I tell her, I'm sure she knows they are there.
I don't think she should feel guilt about not wanting sex if she is asexual, it's just who she is. I feel really bad about the prospect of making her feel that guilt and shy away from being the one responsible for it. But I also think that it's time to rip the plaster off. facing it may be more intensely painful at the time, but once it's in the open and being discussed the underlying long term effects of living with it buried will be ameliorated.
I'm going to have to lay out for her the frustration, the feelings of rejection, feeling that I am undesirable and inadequate and the hurt I've felt over the last 30 years. I know that no matter what I say she's going to feel a huge amount of guilt for having caused me those feelings, because she absolutely does love me. I'm sure on some level she already knows all of this, but that just makes it worse I think. When you have to face into something you've known all along, but pushed to the back of your head because you didn't want to have to deal with it it's doubly hard because you can't say you didn't know. Even if she can't know the strength of my feelings until I tell her, I'm sure she knows they are there.
I don't think she should feel guilt about not wanting sex if she is asexual, it's just who she is. I feel really bad about the prospect of making her feel that guilt and shy away from being the one responsible for it. But I also think that it's time to rip the plaster off. facing it may be more intensely painful at the time, but once it's in the open and being discussed the underlying long term effects of living with it buried will be ameliorated.
You fear bringing feelings to the surface. But as you are aware, the feelings are there, imperfectly buried. Only by airing them out can you reduce their intensity and power and move beyond them, and make progress to a better healthier life.
If you bury feelings, your conscious mind can try and ignore them, using the distractions of day-to-day life, and fantasy, as well. But the body knows they are there. And your miserable unfulfilling life will continue.
You are right that she "shouldn't" feel guilt for being asexual and not meeting your needs. But only by discussing it can she move past her guilt, and you can both move past casting blame on each other, and on yourselves, face reality, and attain better health and satifaction. As you know, the initial rawness and pain will be well worth it in the long run.
If you bury feelings, your conscious mind can try and ignore them, using the distractions of day-to-day life, and fantasy, as well. But the body knows they are there. And your miserable unfulfilling life will continue.
You are right that she "shouldn't" feel guilt for being asexual and not meeting your needs. But only by discussing it can she move past her guilt, and you can both move past casting blame on each other, and on yourselves, face reality, and attain better health and satifaction. As you know, the initial rawness and pain will be well worth it in the long run.
You are right of course. I need to remember that in the medium to longer term things will improve for both of us once we've discussed this issue. It's like the surgeon cutting out a cancer, sure there's pain at first from the operation where before perhaps you weren't feeling pain. But that didn't mean it wasn't there eating away from the inside doing way more damage than you perhaps realise at the time. and quickly enough the surgery scars heal and that pain goes away and hopefully you are well again.
My rational brain knows this, it just needs to overrule that irrational part of my brain that says "don't do it 'cos it'll hurt right now"
I also had to take that leap of faith in my relationship of many years. We had completely different reasons for our conflicts, but the feelings were exactly the same. The fear of the unknown, the buried emotions, the protective instinct, the avoidance of pain, etc.
I am not a "believer" in Tarot by any means, but in cases like this where we have to take bold steps, I think of the meaning of the Fool card.
I am not a "believer" in Tarot by any means, but in cases like this where we have to take bold steps, I think of the meaning of the Fool card.
EldritchDucky
Member
You know @Fogul, we're both navigating this situation and learning as we go. I wanted to share my revelation of the week with you. I think it has a lot to do with our common situation.
We had a discussion in couples therapy about what loyalty means. It's not just being supportive with your actions. It's also always putting your life partner first when it comes to conflict, when it's a situation like ours. Our partners expect our total loyalty in monogamy. But when it's a poly situation, you can have split loyalties that are tested by conflict, which might mean you have to choose not to choose a side.
That works better when the relationship is poly from the start. Everyone gets to start off as an island of themselves before building their community. Everyone gets to have their expectations from the beginning, if done right.
If you're mono from the start and try opening up into poly, you have to take into account whether or not your partner will accept split loyalties or you islanding yourself. If a secondary relationship with you rises to the level that you care enough to advocate for them AGAINST your life partner, you will find your life partner questioning your loyalties and feeling betrayed. And that's not terribly fair to secondaries who might want more of your loyalty. In fact, it sounds like a well-worn debate in this community.
This led me to the realization of why most LTRs don't seem to open into pure, by the books, proper Polyamory™ and instead trend toward open relationships and swinging, at least from my observation. Because loyalty built up like that over a long time is hard to reconcile with poly if you didn't start off poly. If you're trying to go into ENM, you might be better off considering less emotional, less supportive relationships to meet your needs. The chances for success might be greater.
I'd be interested to hear what other members of the community think of my perspective. Have I read the wrong book along the way? Am I just full of shit?
We had a discussion in couples therapy about what loyalty means. It's not just being supportive with your actions. It's also always putting your life partner first when it comes to conflict, when it's a situation like ours. Our partners expect our total loyalty in monogamy. But when it's a poly situation, you can have split loyalties that are tested by conflict, which might mean you have to choose not to choose a side.
That works better when the relationship is poly from the start. Everyone gets to start off as an island of themselves before building their community. Everyone gets to have their expectations from the beginning, if done right.
If you're mono from the start and try opening up into poly, you have to take into account whether or not your partner will accept split loyalties or you islanding yourself. If a secondary relationship with you rises to the level that you care enough to advocate for them AGAINST your life partner, you will find your life partner questioning your loyalties and feeling betrayed. And that's not terribly fair to secondaries who might want more of your loyalty. In fact, it sounds like a well-worn debate in this community.
This led me to the realization of why most LTRs don't seem to open into pure, by the books, proper Polyamory™ and instead trend toward open relationships and swinging, at least from my observation. Because loyalty built up like that over a long time is hard to reconcile with poly if you didn't start off poly. If you're trying to go into ENM, you might be better off considering less emotional, less supportive relationships to meet your needs. The chances for success might be greater.
I'd be interested to hear what other members of the community think of my perspective. Have I read the wrong book along the way? Am I just full of shit?
I guess it's assumed, in monogamy, that either person will take their partner's side in any conflict. I don't personally believe that level of loyalty is healthy. There are going to be times when your partner steps out of line, and if/when that happens, you are kind of in the position to call them out on it. In that sense, polyamory is actually a good thing as it puts loyalty into a more realistic perspective.
@EldritchDucky I think there’s a lot of sense in what you are saying. I think if you go into a relationship with one expectation and then down the line that expectation gets changed it’s going to be harder for everyone to get comfortable with that, but if it was clear up front then you can decide before you’re too invested already if it is for you.
People get used to the status quo and expect it will always remain the same and any changes brings uncertainty until a new normal asserts itself.
I’ll be honest when I landed here I was only learning about ENM and wasn’t clear on the distinction between different kinds of ENM arrangements.
I do think that I would be more comfortable and satisfied with a deeper relationship than just sex, but I can see how that would seem like more of a threat to my wife. I don’t know what she is going to say, but I could envisage her being more uncomfortable with me developing a new romantic relationship than a new purely sexual one.
People get used to the status quo and expect it will always remain the same and any changes brings uncertainty until a new normal asserts itself.
I’ll be honest when I landed here I was only learning about ENM and wasn’t clear on the distinction between different kinds of ENM arrangements.
I do think that I would be more comfortable and satisfied with a deeper relationship than just sex, but I can see how that would seem like more of a threat to my wife. I don’t know what she is going to say, but I could envisage her being more uncomfortable with me developing a new romantic relationship than a new purely sexual one.
Bobbi
Well-known member
It’s amazing how taking sex off the table when one partner wants it and the other doesn’t can free you both up. You’ll no longer feel rejected and unloved in that way and she will no longer feel the stress around it.
It will also free you up to have a more intimate relationship as now you both will know that sex isnt going to happen so touching, cuddling and making out along with other intimate acts become enjoyable instead of something to fear.
Knowing a partner is going to want more makes the unwanting partner stop it all at the beginning. The stress of things possibly going too far and having to shut it down is stark. Its easier to just not go there. Ending that part of the relationship can be very healthy. Some time exploring more intimacy with her might also make her feel more secure in a poly type relationship.