Allosexual husband of an asexual wife explores options

[Fogul]

I'm new here. I'm at the very start of a journey and at this stage who knows where it is going to lead me. I've been exploring for a while and I landed here and I'm very glad I did because I have already been helped a great deal by a number of very helpful members, one of whom suggested I think about starting a blog/journal here and as you can see I followed that suggestion. My hope for this is that by putting down in words what I'm thinking, where the journey is taking me and how I'm feeling it might help me sort everything out in my own head. if perhaps my story has any resonance for anyone else and it helps them too then that'd be great. I'm generally happy to answer questions too, so feel free.

I won't repeat all of what I've said elsewhere, but if you are interested there's more here: https://polyamory.com/threads/is-an-open-marriage-right-for-us.155998/

In the best traditions of a TV serial I'll start with a "story so far", talk about where I am and what I think the next steps for me are.

I'm a 53 year old man in a 31 year sexless marriage to a woman who I love very, very much. It has been sexless from the start, by the common definition, with less than 8 times in that first year, it's rarely been more than twice a year since and often none at all. The longest spell with no sex has been almost 4 years. It's further complicated by my wife's vaginismus which means we have never achieved penetrative sex.

People will often tell you that a marriage cannot survive without a strong sexual bond. I'm here to tell you that is not universally true. Our marriage is very strong in every other way. We both really enjoy each other's company, we work well together as a team, we support each other in so many ways and we are each other's best friends. I'm happy that we are best friends. I want her to be my best friend, but I want her to be my lover too, and that's where it falls short.

We have talked about this over the years. But I've been stuck between wanting to address the issue and not wanting to badger or put pressure on my wife. Looking back I realise that I have allowed the situation to develop where we have not talked about it nearly enough or in nearly enough depth. I was brought up to put other people's needs ahead of my own and that is very firmly engrained in my personality. I'm reticent to bring up a topic I know is painful for my wife, and so I try to take all the pain on myself. If I were English it would be a case of stiff upper lip, but I'm Scottish, so it must presbyterian stoicism.

Either way I'm coming to realise that putting other people first has pushed me into the very tight and very uncomfortable comer where I find myself. All the hurt, frustration, fear and loneliness hasn't gone away as I've eaten it all over the years, it has in fact become part of me. A part I don't much like and, like the extra post Christmas pounds, it's time to try to shift it.

Through my research I've recently come to realise that it is very likely that my wife is asexual. We haven't discussed it yet and I don't know what her reaction to that would be. I've tried to start a conversation, by telling her I'd like to talk about our sex life at a time when she feels ready, prepared and comfortable. Putting the ball in her court as it were. However I'm coming to realise that she is probably happy with the status quo and so she has no impetus to make a date for that conversation and hence it hasn't happened. I realise I need to take a more proactive approach and set a date and time myself.

I think that because she is asexual she has no conception of what effect over 30 years in an sexless relationship has had on me. I know she loves me very much. But knowing something and feeling something are not necessarily the same thing and I haven't always felt loved, not in that deep way I love her. I feel her friendship love for me, I even feel her romantic love for me, but I don't feel any erotic love. When we do have sex, yes it's thrilling and exciting and fun, but it's ultimately unsatisfying because I feel like she's doing it for me. To please me. Whereas I want her to want it for herself. I want her to need it, to need me in that urgent way I need her. I know now it's extremely unlikely she's ever going to feel that about me (only took me 31 years! Quick on the uptake eh?).

"Did I not know all this before we married?" I hear you ask. Well, we were both Christians back then, and we chose not to engage in pre-marital sex. Plus we were young. I married a week or so before my 22nd birthday.

It's perhaps strange to grieve for something you never had, but I believe that's what I'm suffering from. Or perhaps I'm grieving for having lost what I thought our marriage would, could and should be.

As I've researched allosexual/asexual relationships I've learned people in that circle talk about 4 options. They are pretty much the 4 options I had worked out for myself anyway:

1. Compromise sex: where the asexual partner gives the allosexual partner as much as they can. As you can probably tell from the above, that's not a great option. Sex as a chore for one can never be satisfying for the other. But more than that, I love this woman very much. I always want what is best for her (as we know, even at my own expense). How could I ask her to do something so intimate that she just doesn't want? What kind of loving husband would that make me?
2. Celibacy: i.e., me choosing to live the rest of my life without the joy that sexual intimacy should bring. Could I live with that? Is my desire to put my wife first at all times strong enough to sustain me in the second half of my life? As I sit down now and contemplate the damage that I have willingly inflicted on myself, the hurt and the loneliness, I think no. I cannot live the rest of my life that way. But that takes action. I have to make an active choice to change, or else I'll end up down this route as a default option.
3. Ethical non monogamy: I've spent 30 years only wanting my wife. There was no-one before her and I've never cheated. Although I've been sorely tempted at times to either try to find someone to have an affair with, or else pay for it, I could never do that. It's just not in my makeup. I've been aware for a while of ENM, but until now had never really explored it. I am rectifying this now.
4. Divorce: This is not an option I want to contemplate. I love my wife very much. I love (almost) every aspect of our lives together. We have plans for how we intend to grow old together. We have a 15 year old son (born via artificial conception). I'm not ready to lose that and I'm not sure I ever will be.

So where does that leave me? It leaves me here, on a site devoted to polyamory, exploring if it is a possible answer I could live with. Is it an answer I could talk to my wife about? Since options 1 and 2 above are out, what choice do I have? If I go down the route of ENM, I fear even raising it might precipitate the break-up of our marriage. But why would I choose divorce to avoid taking a risk on something that might (but then again, might not) break up our marriage?

What next? Well, I'm exploring here and on an asexuality forum. I've booked an individual therapy session with a therapist who specialises in both ENM and disparities in sexual appetite between partners. I will get my head around both asexuality and ENM, and then I'll be more active in ensuring my wife and I have that conversation. I don't know where it will all take me, but I'm determined not to settle for the default of celibacy.

Whew. That's been a long post. If you've stuck with it all this way, I thank you. Despite its length, there's more to unpack. and I'm sure I'll do some of that over the coming weeks.

 

[EldritchDucky]

Your story really resonates with me. My wife is asexual and I'm not only allosexual, but hypersexual and hyperkinky. We're currently working out our issues between us as a monogamous couple after years of companionate and sexless marriage, but I've been hit with the "polyamorous possibility", too. (<-- Elisabeth Sheff coined the phrase in Polyamorists Next Door. Here's an article that explains it well if you don't want to buy the book.)

Since I came to her about being interested in ENM, we've been able to achieve that "compromise sex" option. It took time, but... this might come as a shock... after getting some good lube and setting aside time for regular practice, she found her way past discomfort and discovered her very own version of a sex drive. Now, we have a sex life. It also helped to read Emily Nagoski's "Come As You Are" for ways to validate and normalize whatever expression of sexuality she has and dispense with limiting labels like "asexual" (though you should be gentle about that... some people get REALLY attached to their labels). Nagoski has another book coming out in a few weeks, "Come Together", about maintaining sexual connection in LTRs.

However, we still struggle with intimacy and vulnerability, despite getting my carnal needs met pretty regularly. That's where ENM is still a perceived threat to her. Not having that intimacy and vulnerability still makes the regular sex life a little odd. It's never going to be just like you envisioned, but it is going to throw the elements that are still missing into stark relief. And at some point, you're going to grieve the same way you've been grieving your lost time, only this time you're going to grieve not working on this BEFORE getting hit with the polyamorous possibility. It makes things harder for you with the perceptions of a married man to the ENM community, it highlights the mismatches with your partner, and it brings out new needs tinged with resentment. If you're anything like me, you're constantly echoing through your head "I only get to live this life one time, so it's now or never." That can be a dangerous voice to listen to.

I also want to warn you that you appear to be falling into the same trap as me. You're growing in your knowledge and understanding of ENM and poly separately from her. In short, you're literally "growing apart". If ENM is a thing you want to have in your life and have her and the stable life you built together, you two need to take this journey together and at the speed of the slowest partner. I suggest getting a couples therapist who's poly/ENM-affirming and sitting down with them to open this discussion. Don't talk about it before. In fact, if she worries why you want to talk to a couples therapist... let her worry a little. It might even work in your favor in the long run.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Fogul,

It sounds like you and your wife are perfect for each other, other than this one little thing. Sex. Not so little, is it? You need to figure out whether you can continue with each other without this one little thing. If you can't, then you need to figure out whether you can continue with each other with open/polyamory. The only way to figure that out is to have a heart-to-heart with your wife about how she feels about you having a relationship (physical? emotional?) with another woman. Maybe she would be okay with that. Maybe not. You need to find out. Have a heartfelt conversation with her about that.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi Fogul,

It sounds like you and your wife are perfect for each other, other than... Sex. Not so little, is it?

It's not little.

You need to figure out whether you can continue with each other without this one little thing. If you can't, then you need to figure out whether you can continue with each other with open/polyamory. The only way to figure that out is to have a heart-to-heart with your wife about how she feels about you having a relationship (physical? emotional?) with another woman.

The priority is to see if things can improve with his wife, before jumping into polyamory, perhaps to the detriment of their marriage. They haven't fully investigated her physical/emotional issues around touch, in general.

 

[Fogul]

I'm fed up keeping writing "my wife," so I'm just going to make up a name for her. I'm going to call her Joy, because, despite everything, that's what she is to me and that's what she gives to me, in every way but one (and as we noted above, it's a big one).

I had my session with a therapist today and it was a very interesting and I think very useful first session. Once I had told my story, we talked about why it is that I have gone for over 30 years without properly addressing this issue. Joy and I have talked about it, but not often enough and not deeply enough. For the next session, the therapist asked me to reflect on that question, and I have been doing so.

If you've been following any of my posts, you'll know I've laid out a number of problems in my life, and I'm not going to repeat them here. They are above and elsewhere, if you haven't already seen them. I'm going to lay out two more, or perhaps it's one problem and one consequence of that problem, and maybe a lot of my problems stem in some way from that one.

I believe I am somewhere on the Autistic spectrum. I've never had a diagnosis. I went to school in the '70s and '80s and that wasn't a topic really discussed then. I'm not going to try to get a diagnosis now, because putting a name to it doesn't change who and how I am, but I'm certainly neuro-atypical. As a result I have difficulty expressing and probably even understanding emotions, and I have difficulty socially, which brings us to the second problem/consequence. I have no friends outside of Joy and our son. I don't mean I don't have many, I mean I have none. I have colleagues who I get on perfectly well with, and people I've known in the past that I remain "friendly" with, but if Joy didn't set up things where we met our old friends I wouldn't, and probably wouldn't even give it a thought.

Please don't say that's probably why I'm clinging to this marriage, because without it I would be completely isolated. While there may be a grain of truth in that, it would trivialise the deep love that I do have for Joy.

So I'm socially awkward and I have difficulty expressing emotions or even properly examining my own emotions. I also take things very literally and have a tendency to see everything in a very binary mode. It's either a one or a zero, it's yes or no and what's done is done and it can't be undone. I think somehow I've internalised that as whatever happens, move on. Don't go back and poke at it because you can't change it. At the same time and in a contradictory way, there are things that have happened that I do keep going back to and reliving, like the empty socket where a tooth has been extracted that you can't help but keep sticking your tongue into. I'm reminded of the lines to a song called "Southland of the Heart" by Canadian signer songwriter Bruce Cockburn.

When your heart's beset by memories
You wish you'd never made
When the sun comes up an enemy
And nothing gives you shade​

Inevitably, at those times, what I think is: how could I have done something different? How could I have avoided that? How could I have been better? Because here's the thing, I treat everything that happens as my fault. There are people you meet in the world who are forever blaming someone else for every bad thing, never taking responsibility for their own actions (I'm going to guess maybe 10% of people fall into this category). Then there's the majority, the 80%, who take their share of the blame, but can see where other people might share in that too. I'm of the last 10%, who take the blame always and only onto themselves. It's probably a kind of over-inflated opinion of myself, that I'm so important that everything revolves around me and so every bad thing is my fault. Although perhaps that just the kind of thinking someone who is always looking to take the blame would have.

I think that means that in my head I have to strive to be perfect. I'm a perfectionist. And there's no point in complaining, because it wont change anything. Just get on and be better. And yes, I see how warped that is, that I don't operate in a vacuum and I can't just will myself to fix everything by being better myself. Not when the problem involves both of us.

I think that's also why I would be reticent to raise the possibility of ENM, because I've bought into the tyranny of monogamy and I don't want to admit to imperfections, to Joy, or even to myself.

I'm sorry, most of this has not been about polyamory at all and you would all be quite within your rights to say take this somewhere else, but it is part of my journey, and an important part. I still think that journey is going to end up at a fork in the road where down one way lies some form of ENM. If you're happy to indulge me I'll continue to share that journey here.

 

[EldritchDucky]

Now, we have a sex life. It also helped to read Emily Nagoski's "Come As You Are" for ways to validate and normalize whatever expression of sexuality she has and dispense with limiting labels like "asexual" (though you should be gentle about that... some people get REALLY attached to their labels)

I wanted to follow up on this one thing. Asexuals come in multiple flavors. To categorize them by choice or nature or trauma often misses the point. Some of them don’t like the supposed drama, messiness, or ickiness of sexuality. It doesn’t really matter. That’s more of an identity to them.

Then, there’s a category of what I call “asexual by acceptance." They felt strong sexual feelings, but had a hard time acting on them, finding a partner, had cultural blocks, or, generally speaking, had a lead foot on the “brakes." You could almost call it asexual by frustration.

Breaking through expectations and embracing the form their sexuality actually takes may heal the pervasive feeling that they missed out on “something that comes naturally to everyone else but me." Vaginismus is one of those factors and it’s something that can often be treated, if SHE wants to.

Jess worked on this when I resented that we had given up on trying to connect our sex life. She saw how it caused me pain and so we started our journey.

I'm sorry, most of this has not been about polyamory at all

You'll find the skills needed for ENM are the same skills that you need for a happy fulfilling monogamous relationship. ENM is just all that on high-difficulty mode. The structure of monogamy can mask the cracks, but healing the cracks makes for a more fulfilling relationship. In ENM, it becomes all but essential to poly survival, instead of optional. So, all of this is still relevant, especially since you have the poly-possibility in play.

 

[Fogul]

Breaking through expectations and embracing the form their sexuality actually takes may heal the pervasive feeling that they missed out on “something that comes naturally to everyone else but me”. Vaginismus is one of those factors and it’s something that can often be treated, if SHE wants to.

I think you are right. What I need to understand is whether she actually wants to have a sex life, or if she would be much happier knowing it was off the table for good. To know that we need to have that conversation, in fact those conversations, but it all starts with the first one.

Perhaps discussing the four options (compromise sex, celibacy, ENM or divorce) and my reaction to each of them will make her decide there is an option five, which is fix our sex life. I’m not saying I think that’s likely, for all the reasons that have been discussed, but perhaps it’s still a possibility.

What I don’t want to do is make her feel pressurised into trying to force herself into a version of option five by holding a metaphorical gun to her head with options three and four.

What is certain is that before anything can happen, we need to talk, and before that can happen I need to work through my own issues.

 

[EldritchDucky]

What I need to understand is whether she actually wants to have a sex life or if she would be much happier knowing it was off the table for good.

What I don’t want to do is make her feel pressurised into trying to force herself into a version of option five by holding a metaphorical gun to her head with options three and four.

Again, you’re entering this world near where we started. The biggest difference between you and I is that Jess and I started working on our sex life before getting hit with the poly-possibility. We were a work in progress when we took that fateful trip to a swingers club.

It’s buried in one of my past posts, but as we started that process, she actually suggested I find sexual fulfillment from someone else. Yes, it gets lost in the chaos of the last year that SHE suggested being ENM first.

 

[Fogul]

Again, you’re entering this world near where we started. The biggest difference between you and I is that Jess and I started working on our sex life before getting hit with the poly-possibility. We were a work in progress when we took that fateful trip to a swingers club.

It’s buried in one of my past posts, but as we started that process, she actually suggested I find sexual fulfillment from someone else. Yes, it gets lost in the chaos of the last year that SHE suggested being ENM first.

I’m always sorry when I hear that other people are going through the same trials as I/we are, but at the same time it’s a relief to know that I/we are not alone. Other people are in the same boat.

It’s even better to hear the experiences of people who have already traveled the road we have ahead. It’s never going to be exactly the same for anyone else, but there’s so much commonality that you can learn something useful from their experience.

It’s great to know that people come out the other side with a workable solution that may not have been anyone’s first choice (although maybe it was), but is certainly something everyone can live with and possibly even discover it’s as good or better than what they thought was their first choice at the start.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I think she's a sex-repulsed asexual, and as you've already binned the idea of compromise sex, I think a fix is not in the cards. I can't remember exactly what, but there have been a few things that have made me think this isn't an aversion to intimacy due to sexual hang-ups, but is her relationship with sex and possessing a sex drive. Hers is absent because she is asexual.

I don't think polyamory is a solution to sexual incompatibility. I know some people have made it work, but I've never seen it work in a way where the sexual person is passionately engaged in a romantic relationship with their asexual partner. It's typically platonic and definitely settles in that realm once they have fuller relationships with other people.

Once co-parenting duties or familial responsibilities become obsolete and/or they retire from the distraction of work, the couple split. Usually amicably.

 

[Fogul]

Once co-parenting duties or familial responsibilities become obsolete and/or they retire from the distraction of work, the couple split. Usually amicably.

You may be right, and if polyamory ended up being a route we went down, we would have to both acknowledge that may be where we ended up.

But if compromise sex and celibacy are not options, then I’d rather go down a route where there’s a chance we can keep some, most or all of what we currently have, even if the chance is low.

If it doesn’t work out, we just arrive at the option of divorce a little later.

Yes, there’s the possibility of an extended period of pain for one or both of us, but if it ever gets so bad that it’s worse than breaking up, then we move towards divorce sooner rather than later.

 

[Fogul]

I know some people have made it work, but I've never seen it work in a way where the sexual person is passionately engaged in a romantic relationship with their asexual partner.

I’m also on an asexuality forum, and there are a fair few people, both men and women, who are making it work. Granted, that’s a very selective group and the ones for whom it didn’t work are probably not hanging around posting about it. It does however give me a little hope that it is not impossible.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I’m also on an asexuality forum, and there are a fair few people, both men and women who are making it work. Granted that’s a very selective group and the ones for whom it didn’t work are probably not hanging around posting about it. It does however give me a little hope that it is not impossible.

Of those who make it work, who are the ones posting? The asexual or the sexual?

 

[Fogul]

Of those who make it work, who are the ones posting? The asexual or the sexual?

From what I remember I think there are examples of both, but probably most often it’s the sexual partner who is posting.

 

[EldritchDucky]

a workable solution that may not have been anyone’s first choice

That’s a stunning bit of wisdom you laid down there. Keep that flexibility in mind.

I’m going to be a lot less negative about asexuality and your chances, because I’ve seen what is damned close to a miracle in my marriage. My asexual wife has a “sex drive” we had to develop, which is to say, she doesn’t get that anxious motivated tension to get off. In fact, she is anorgasmic. And yet she’s found a drive that has us having sex multiple times a week, sometimes multiple days in a row, if we’ve been apart and traveling. Occasionally multiple times a day if we hit a really joyful patch. I almost can’t believe I’m talking about MY relationship…

I have a question: can she have orgasms on her own? If so, let me take the fact that she’s physically uncomfortable with penetrative sex into account and suggest you be willing to go down on her? Might you see what that leads to? Could you prioritize outercourse and build a sex life with your wife on that?

If there’s something there for her to connect to, I’ll say again, you owe it to yourselves to read “Come As You Are” together. And one of the greatest manuals for cunnilingus in print: “She Comes First”. This would be a good place to start if you’re willing.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm glad your first appointment went well, and that your counselor seems to be a good fit and is asking you to reflect on things.

Undiagnosed Autism and then perfectionism -- those are also big topics. And not to throw another one on the pile, but sometimes it's "AuDHD," like autism and ADHD together. It's okay if you do not wish to seek a dx in this area at this time. I'm glad you are thinking about how those things might affect you and how you landed where you are now. Like a "domino effect," perhaps.

I'm sorry, most of this has not been about polyamory at all and you would all be quite within your rights to say take this somewhere else, but it is part of my journey, and an important part. I still think that journey is going to end up at a fork in the road, where down one way lies some form of ENM. If you're happy to indulge me I'll continue to share that journey here.

It's okay for you to take up the space you do in the world. And also here -- it's your blog thread.

A lot about polyamory is basic relationship skills and human interaction, the same things that would apply in any relationship model. Yes, there are some things about it that do not appear in monogamous relationships.

It's okay that you are in a contemplative place in your life and to take it one thing at a time. You don't have to solve everything instantly. But as you take inventory of your life, it's okay to note areas that you might want to talk to your counselor about more, as you try to "sort the dominoes" and put them in some kind of order, so you can figure out how to approach talking to your wife eventually about all that has been going on with you.

GL!
Galagirl

 

[Fogul]

I’m really glad to know that it is possible to start to build a sex life after a long time without.

I have a question: can she have orgasms on her own? If so, let me take the fact that she’s physically uncomfortable with penetrative sex into account and suggest you be willing to go down on her? Might you see what that leads to? Could you prioritize outercourse and build a sex life with your wife on that?

I don’t know if she orgasms on her own. I don’t know if she ever masturbates. My strong suspicion is that she does not, but I’ve never asked.

Me giving her oral sex is pretty much the majority of our sex life when we do have sex. She says I’m good at it and she enjoys it, but she isn’t very demonstrative and she’s never in a hurry to repeat the experience. She never reciprocates either.

Of course, I fear that in fact I’m not very good at it, or anything else at all, and if only I were better she would be more interested. I know that with asexuality, that’s not the case, but it’s hard not to feel that way.

If there’s something there for her to connect to, I’ll say again, you owe it to yourselves to read “Come As You Are” together. And one of the greatest manuals for cunnilingus in print: “She Comes First”. This would be a good place to start if you’re willing.

I will order that book, and a few more I’ve been recommended. Thanks.

 

[Fogul]

not to throw another one on the pile, but sometimes it's "AuDHD" like autism and ADHD together. It's ok if you do not wish to seek a dx in this area at this time. I'm glad you are thinking about how those things might affect you and how you landed where you are now. Like "domino effect" perhaps.

I have previously thought I share traits common to inattentive ADHD, easily distracted, forgetful, difficulty staying organised. My wife often says that a conversation with me is like reading a mystery book because I can start a sentence, get halfway through and stop, because I’ve forgotten what I was going to say.

It's okay that you are in a contemplative place in your life and to take it one thing at a time. You don't have to solve everything instantly. But as you take inventory of your life, it's okay to note areas that you might want to talk to your counselor about more, as you try to "sort the dominoes" and put them in some kind of order, so you can figure out how to approach talking to your wife eventually about all that has been going on with you.

I do feel very positive about things right now. Part of me wants to rush right into a conversation with my wife, but the smarter part of me recognises that I need to deal with some of these issues first so that I’m in a better position to have that conversation when it does happen. My current plan is:

1 sort my shit out.
2 research more about both asexuality and ENM
3 work out when I’m ready to have a conversation about sex
4 agree with my wife when we’re going to have that conversation
5 pack our 15 year old son off to a sleepover with his friend so we have the house to ourselves
6 have the conversation
7 what comes next really depends on the conversation.

 

[kdt26417]

You seem to have a sensible plan. Go forward with it, and keep us posted.

 

[Magdlyn]

That sounds like a great plan, for starters. Of course, you're going to need more than one conversation... and then some action.