Is an open marriage right for us?

[Fogul]

My wife and I have spent over 30 years in a sexless marriage. In our first year of marriage we had sex 8 times. That remains the most we’ve managed in any year since. It has become more sporadic as time has passed. It’s now been over three years since we last had sex.

Now health issues she is going through make it even less likely than ever before.

Despite that, we love each other very much and are both entirely devoted to each other. Many people say a marriage cannot survive such a disparity in sex drive but ours has not only survived, but flourished.

However I’m early/mid fifties and I cannot imagine never having sex again. Should I speak to my wife about having an open marriage? Given her health and lack of interest I doubt if she would take advantage of the openness, although if she did wish to I would be happy for her.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Fogul,

Yes you should speak to your wife about having an open marriage. There is quite a gap between you two about who wants sex. If she is not willing/able to have sex with you often if ever, she should be willing to let you find sex outside the marriage. I hope the two of you are able to work things out.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Bobbi]

I agree its definitely worth talking about. I'm not a fan of "Relationship broken, let’s do poly," but it sounds like you have a strong, loving relationship. A disparity this big can be an ender if you can't get your needs met.

Do lots of research, read lots of books together and discuss openly your thoughts as you go. Both of your minds will probably change a lot about what you think and feel over time, while learning more and hearing various viewpoints. What you each want will probably change over time, too.

Don't rush actually opening up. You've been patient this long, so take the time to learn together and grow together before leaping into actually being open. The longer you learn and grow before you open, the better your chances of success. Good luck.

Books: More Than Two, Opening Up, Polysecure
Podcasts: Multiamory (great for any type of relationship), Making Polyamory Work, Normalizing Non-Monogamy (all forms of non monogamy, not just polyamory. You may find a better fit for what you want here if sex is all you want, not necessarily love).

 

[Fogul]

Thanks for the input. I’ll check out those resources.

I don’t think our relationship is broken. It is strong and amazing in literally every other aspect. But this sexual disparity is and has been a constant source of sadness for me. I mourn the loss of sexual intimacy with that deep emotional connection (even though I’ve not actually lost it because I never had it). I don’t think I’ll ever make an emotional connection like the one I have with my wife, and I wouldn’t want to.

But nor do I want just sex, I want intimacy. Is this trying to tread too fine a line?

 

[Tinwen]

I'll be less encouraging, although I also think it might possibly be worth trying.

One warning that is issued over and over again, and almost never heard, is that sex and intimacy lead to bonding, lead to falling in love (NRE, limerance...). A lot of people starting out with intention "It's just sex..." fall into the trap of "but now we have feelings."

But I also hear you're not just looking for sex, you ARE looking for intimacy. My guess is, you will be in love and relationship with a new lady within a year, if you go down that route. Than any depth of connection you have with your wife may seem pale in comparison to the new and intense, at least for a time, a year or two, maybe, which is enough to break marriages.

So be prepared. If you want sex, you might get another relationship, and get it with all the pitfalls involved. There's no saying how this will end.

A first good start would be to look into the distinction between polyamory and open relationship.

I hear the swingers community has some habits to facilitate having sex without falling in love recklessly, but I haven't tried so I can't refer.

Also, her health situation is a severe complicating factor. Consider that processing the prospect of non-monogamy can bring severe emotional stress, which is certainly not good for healing.

Second, you don't talk about the severity of her illness, but her health issues are putting her in a vulnerable position. She may be dependent on you financially or for care now. At the heart of the polyamorous philosophy there is an expectation of independence - enough so, that clear, informed consent can be freely given without duress. If she fears about being able to care for herself financially or otherwise, she's motivated to appease you, no matter what.

Therefore, if you go down this route, the possibility of divorce must be discussed and accepted by both - although hopefully it doesn't come to that.

Since you may or may not be able to continue the marriage without sexual intimacy, that possibility of divorce is already on the table, so it's not the sole fault of polyamory. Please realize that sometimes, for some people, it's less painful to divorce than to accept their spouse having parallel relationships. It is fair to make that offer. It is also fair to explore all other options.

Don't close yourself to any option before you discuss with her. You may open up to swinging or polyamory. You may divorce. You may put a lot of effort into building intimacy between the two of you, go to therapy or visit tantric seminars. She may surprise you by which one she'd prefer.

 

[Tinwen]

But nor do I want just sex, I want intimacy. Is this trying to tread too fine a line?

Short, yes, perhaps it is.

 

[Bobbi]

Thanks for the input. I’ll check out those resources.

I don’t think our relationship is broken. It is strong and amazing in literally every other aspect. But this sexual disparity is and has been a constant source of sadness for me. I mourn the loss of sexual intimacy with that deep emotional connection (even though I’ve not actually lost it because I never had it). I don’t think I’ll ever make an emotional connection like the one I have with my wife, and I wouldn’t want to.

But nor do I want just sex, I want intimacy. Is this trying to tread too fine a line?

One thing you should understand that I learned from experience: when you are missing something from a partner, you cannot replace that thing by getting it from another. I too needed sexual and intimate contact. That was the only thing missing from my marriage. I found out fast that getting that somewhere else did not get rid of needing that thing from my husband.

In our case, poly was a positive thing, but we are now deconstructed into best friends with a living arrangement. He still provides most of the financial support, with me taking care of the house as my half of the agreement, as I am disabled and cannot work. I fell deeply in love with my first poly partner and we now have a life partnership.

Just beware that things might not go the way you planned and she might be very hurt. If she is okay with you loving someone else in a serious way, as long as she's taken care, of financially and physically, then it might go better.

If she fears about being able to care for herself financially or otherwise, she's motivated to appease you, no matter what.

This is real. If this is in play, it will always be there, no matter how happy she says she is and to go for it. She will always feel like she has to make you happy for her own survival. I have more options now then I did in the beginning, but I still fear him falling in love with someone enough that he moves out and on with his life.

 

[Fogul]

Thanks to everyone for lots of great advice. I’m learning lots here.

My wife’s health condition is not so severe that she is in any way disabled, and as far as we know it should be solvable in time. As far as I can tell, it’s more discomfort than anything else, but it would make intimacy less appealing for even the most sexual of women, never mind someone for whom sex is low on the list of priorities.

We both earn very good salaries, so while if we did split up it would undoubtedly put a dent in our current lifestyles, neither of us would be on the breadline. Far from it.

It is probably naivety on my behalf, but I genuinely do not think anything could diminish or eclipse my love for her. I can imagine loving someone else, but not more than I love my wife, even if that did transition into more of a friendship type of love. It would always be extremely strong, but I’ve nothing to base that on, having never been in that situation. I’m here to learn, so would in no way doubt the real risk that you are describing. It's better to go in understanding all the risks (if you are going to go in at all). In reality, I think for her it already is a very intense friendship love and it would only be me whose love would in any way change.

What I know is that something’s got to give. I can’t see a way to eliminate my own sexual needs. I either have to continue to find ways to live with that (something which only gets harder, not easier with time), find a way to satisfy those needs while still remaining married, or else contemplate terminating the marriage.

Perhaps I need to get to a point where the end of the marriage would be preferable to the status quo. Then going down an ENM route may be more of an option, because knowing the risk is that it may end in divorce may be more acceptable to both of us than choosing to make it a certainty.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don’t think I’ll ever make an emotional connection like the one I have with my wife, and I wouldn’t want to.

AT THIS TIME. At this time that is your belief. Well... you could examine this belief.

Why not? Why couldn't you meet someone and make a deep emotional connection, just as deep as the one you have with wife? If it did start to happen, what would you do, dump the person immediately?

Why would you want it, or not want it?

If what you want is more sex... well... what kind? Like hiring a professional? Developing a FWB? Seeking a regular GF? Something else?

Is your definition of "sharing sex" very narrow, like "only penetrative sex counts as sex?" Would you and wife benefit from sex ed or sex classes? Learning other ways to share sensuality/sex?

Despite that, we love each other very much and are both entirely devoted to each other. Many people say a marriage cannot survive such a disparity in sex drive. Ours has not only survived, but flourished.

And if you two are committed life partners, do you have to be legally married to do that?

I think before you bring it up with your wife, you could spend some time thinking it out, educating yourself, and maybe even talking to a counselor, so when you DO talk to wife about it, you can articulate what it is you want and be able to communicate that clearly.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Fogul,

Wanting more than just sex, wanting intimacy, is never too fine a line to tread. It is even in line with polyamory, where the emotional elements of a relationship are emphasized over the physical. Just stick to your fondest wishes, and be patient.

With empathy,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

One thing you should understand that I learned from experience: when you are missing something from a partner, you cannot replace that thing by getting it from another. I too needed sexual and intimate contact. That was the only thing missing from my marriage. I found out fast that getting that somewhere else did not get rid of needing that thing from my husband.

It's different for me. My gf's sex drive is much lower than mine, and satisfied more simply. She is fine with a short 10 minute quickie once or twice a week, and sometimes is fine with not having any sex at all for months. I find that I crave much more sex, and more kink, and more intensity, etc., etc. I have learned over the years that it's great to make up for the lack of sex I can have with pixi by having it with a boyfriend (currently, and hopefully forever, with Aries). I choose boyfriends who have high libidos, long-lasting drives that don't end when NRE does. And the more great sex I have with my current bf, the less pressure pixi feels to satisfy me, and strangely, she tells me this makes it more likely for her to have sex with me more often.

In our case, poly was a positive thing, but we are now deconstructed into best friends with a living arrangement. He still provides most of the financial support, with me taking care of the house as my half of the agreement, as I am disabled and cannot work. I fell deeply in love with my first poly partner and we now have a life partnership.


I have more options now then I did in the beginning, but I still fear him falling in love with someone enough that he moves out and on with his life.

That's a pretty dark cloud to live under, isn't it?

 

[Bobbi]

It's different for me. My gf's sex drive is much lower than mine, and satisfied more simply. She is fine with a short 10 minute quickie once or twice a week, and sometimes is fine with not having any sex at all for months. I find that I crave much more sex, and more kink, and more intensity, etc., etc. I have learned over the years that it's great to make up for the lack of sex I can have with pixi by having it with a boyfriend (currently, and hopefully forever, with Aries). I choose boyfriends who have high libidos, long-lasting drives that don't end when NRE does. And the more great sex I have with my current bf, the less pressure pixi feels to satisfy me, and strangely, she tells me this makes it more likely for her to have sex with me more often.

That's a pretty dark cloud to live under, isn't it?

I was just pointing out that you cannot replace a need you have from one partner. A high sex drive can be met by more than one partner

it used to be a dark cloud in the beginning when i was alone. (I was speaking about how i felt when newly poly) I have made friends and have built community so i no longer feel alone. Id have to rent out a room and live even tighter but i would survive and no longer have fear. Since ive become more independent and that fear has faded, our relationship has grown stronger. It really is true that your own insecurities can ruin a relationship. Ive done a lot of personal growth the last three years and it has had a profoundly positive effect on my life and relationships

 

[Magdlyn]

I was just pointing out that you cannot replace a need you have from one partner. A high sex drive can be met by more than one partner

I did grieve a lot in our earlier years about how pixi's sex drive was so low, especially because she told me stories about how high it was when she was younger. And admittedly we had more sex, and more varied sex/kink in our earlier years. But various health factors have led to the drop in her libido.

However, we have been poly with each other from the beginning. So she was always aware that our sex drives didn't match, and we've always been fine in the emotional intimacy piece, even when I'm having lots of sex with this or that other partner. And even when I wasn't dating someone else, she did her best to help me out in other ways, like letting me hold her while I masturbated. My sex drive was never something I had to hide, or take care of furtively, or not talk about, etc. If we had our little sex session, and that left me still wanting more, she'd understand if I carried on by myself for a while.

it used to be a dark cloud in the beginning when i was alone. (I was speaking about how i felt when newly poly) I have made friends and have built community so i no longer feel alone. Id have to rent out a room and live even tighter but i would survive and no longer have fear. Since ive become more independent and that fear has faded, our relationship has grown stronger. It really is true that your own insecurities can ruin a relationship. Ive done a lot of personal growth the last three years and it has had a profoundly positive effect on my life and relationships

Okay, good.

 

[Fogul]

Thanks, everyone, for your helpful replies. I'm new to this and just trying to find my way, so having all this experience to draw on is very helpful. I'm learning right now and a long way from bringing this up with my wife, if indeed I ever decide to do so.

AT THIS TIME. At this time that is your belief. Well... you could examine this belief.

Why not? Why couldn't you meet someone and make a deep emotional connection, just as deep as the one you have with wife? If it did start to happen, what would you do, dump the person immediately?

Why would you want it, or not want it?

My belief stems from the fact that we have been together for 35 years, and our bond and emotional connection, which started strong, has only grown from there. I think if I were to develop a relationship with someone else, then in 35 years time my primary relationship would have had 70 years of development and still be ahead, in that sense. Now, I'm not stupid. I know that these things don't necessarily develop in a straight line, and throwing in sex as well could accelerate the development of feelings for this putative other person.

Why would I want it to work out that way? Well, for 35 years, my wife has been the most important person in my life (with the exception of our son), and I've been the most important person in hers, and I don't want that to change, for her sake or my own.

I know there are no guarantees. We cannot necessarily control our feelings, never mind those of the other potential partner. But really, what in future life is guaranteed, anyway? We have to make the best decisions we can and live with the consequences of them.

If what you want is more sex... well... what kind? Like hiring a professional? Developing a FWB? Seeking a regular GF? Something else?

Once, years ago, when I was working away a lot, I decided I would get an escort and pay for sex. I had convinced myself that due to the transactional nature of the encounter it wouldn't be cheating. I went as far as calling one and leaving a message on her voicemail. However, by the time she called back, I had realised I was simply trying to justify myself and it wasn't acceptable. I never answered or returned her call. (Perhaps that was rude and cowardly, and I should have spoken to her and explained my change of heart.)

I think casual sex would possibly be thrilling and exciting. (And who doesn't like those? So I'm certainly not ruling it out.) But I think, ultimately, it would be unfulfilling for me. So yes, I do want to have more of a connection with someone than just sex, but I don't want to replace my wife and I don't want her to feel replaced. I think I would be capable of making an emotional connection with someone without it diminishing my connection with my wife. At least I hope so.

Is your definition of "sharing sex" very narrow, like "only penetrative sex counts as sex?" Would you and wife benefit from sex ed or sex classes? Learning other ways to share sensuality/sex?

My definition of sex is actually very wide. My wife and I have had very little sex. She experiences vaginismus and we have never achieved penetrative sex. Since I hadn't had sex before marrying her, and haven't had sex outside of our marriage since, I was always of the belief that, over time, that issue would either sort itself out, as she became more comfortable and relaxed around me, or if, necessary we would get help to sort it out. I didn't know, at the time, that the issue wouldn't be what kind of sex we were having, but the fact that we were not having any kind.

One of the things I'd be looking for is not most people's definition of sex at all. I'd love to just lie in bed holding someone and being held, ideally both naked to feel the skin-on-skin contact, not doing much else. Maybe we'd be talking, or maybe not even that, just being together.

 

[Fogul]

One thing you should understand that I learned from experience: when you are missing something from a partner, you cannot replace that thing by getting it from another. I too needed sexual and intimate contact. That was the only thing missing from my marriage. I found out fast that getting that somewhere else did not get rid of needing that thing from my husband.

Thanks. That really confirms my own thoughts. I am grieving that absence of a sexual connection with my wife, and I know nothing can replace that. I have to live without that either way, but perhaps I don't need to live without any sexual fulfilment in my life, and hopefully I can achieve that and retain all the things that are so good about our marriage. What I don't want to do is live the rest of my life celibate, and nor can I see a life without her in it. Perhaps this isn't a "good" reason for considering a non-monogamous lifestyle, but is honestly where I am.

 

[Magdlyn]

My belief stems from the fact that we have been together for 35 years, and our bond and emotional connection, which started strong, has only grown from there. I think if I were to develop a relationship with someone else, then in 35 years time my primary relationship would have had 70 years of development and still be ahead, in that sense. Now, I'm not stupid. I know that these things don't necessarily develop in a straight line, and throwing in sex as well could accelerate the development of feelings for this putative other person.

I know there are no guarantees. We cannot necessarily control our feelings, never mind those of the other potential partner. But really, what in future life is guaranteed, anyway? We have to make the best decisions we can and live with the consequences of them.



Once, years ago, when I was working away a lot, I decided I would get an escort and pay for sex... I never answered or returned her call. (Perhaps that was rude and cowardly, and I should have spoken to her and explained my change of heart.)

That's irrelevant, right now. I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure it's common for people to get cold feet about hiring a sex worker for whatever reason.

I do want to have more of a connection with someone than just sex, but I don't want to replace my wife, and I don't want her to feel replaced. I think I would be capable of making an emotional connection with someone without it diminishing my connection with my wife. At least I hope so.

That is one of the definitions of polyamory, of course. You are extremely inexperienced sexually though (no offense), so it's possible that, given a full relationship with sex, you could get quite carried away by infatuation!

My wife and I have had very little sex. She experiences vaginismus and we have never achieved penetrative sex. Since I hadn't had sex before marrying her, and haven't had sex outside of our marriage since, I was always of the belief that, over time, that issue would either sort itself out, as she became more comfortable and relaxed around me, or if necessary, we would get help to sort it out.

Did she never seek medical help for the vaginismus?

If she can't have penis in vagina sex, is she opposed to outercourse entirely? No oral, no digital fondling, no toys? No making out, even?

I didn't know, at the time, that the issue wouldn't be what kind of sex we were having, but the fact that we were not having any kind.

One of the things I'd be looking for is not most people's definition of sex at all. I'd love to just lie in bed holding someone and being held, ideally both naked to feel the skin-on-skin contact, not doing much else. Maybe we'd be talking, or maybe not even that, just being together.

So your wife and you don't even cuddle skin-to-skin and just hold each other? You've gone decades without getting enough intimate touch. Your whole adult life, basically. (I assume you and she adopted your child.) I'm sure you held your child, and maybe you have pets to cuddle, but of course, while that's lovely, it's no replacement for romantic cuddling/sex.

I do think it's time to see a medical doctor and to seek therapy, maybe individual therapy as well as couples' counseling. It's not too late. You've still got many years ahead of you to experience the full range of adult intimacy.

It's not time right now to open the marriage. You've got lots of learning to do.

I always wonder at partners who won't give their partners sex, but refused to let their partners seek it elsewhere. It just seems cruel. I do have a married friend in somewhat your situation (although he's only in his 30s, and had a very active sex life prior to this current dry spell.) He and his wife haven't had sex in 7 years, since the birth of their daughter. She keeps putting him off. He's too emotionally stunted/fearful to want to push the issue, to open their marriage. He says he loves her and their daughter, and puts that ahead of having sex with her, or with someone else.

 

[dingedheart]

My wife and I have spent over 30 years in a sexless marriage. In our first year of marriage we had sex 8 times. That remains the most we’ve managed in any year since. It has become more sporadic as time has passed. It’s now been over three years since we last had sex.

Did you marry really young and were both virgins with strict religious beliefs? No counseling, workshops, books on sexless marriages in the first few yrs, you just sort of normalized a sexless marriage over time?

Bobbi said:
"One thing you should understand, that I learned from experience: when you are missing something from a partner, you cannot replace that thing by getting it from another. I too needed sexual and intimate contact. That was the only thing missing from my marriage. I found out fast that getting that somewhere else did not get rid of needing that thing from my husband."

I think this could be an individual thing. In my experience, you definitely can replace or fill in what’s missing in your relationship. That's kind of a poly mantra, that no one can fulfill all your needs.

Your wife might actually prefer being released from the guilt or shame of having a low or nonexistent sex drive.

 

[Fogul]

@Magdlyn, thanks for your response.

That is one of the definitions of polyamory, of course. You are extremely inexperienced sexually though (no offense), so it's possible that, given a full relationship with sex, you could get quite carried away by infatuation!

No offense taken, you are of course quite right, I am very inexperienced and yes I am aware that I may get carried away. At the end of the day you never know how you're going to react to an experience until you've had it. I think I just need to be aware of that risk.

Did she never seek medical help for the vaginismus?

If she can't have penis in vagina sex, is she opposed to outercourse entirely? No oral, no digital fondling, no toys? No making out, even?

She did seek help, but never persisted with the proposed solution which involved the progressive use of vaginal dilators. The problem is, she doesn't identify herself as such, but I'm 99% convinced that she is asexual, and has no interest in sex at all. We have rarely engaged in some of those things. She doesn't give me oral sex, but she says she enjoys receiving it, just it would appear not enough to want to do it more often.

So your wife and you don't even cuddle skin-to-skin and just hold each other? You've gone decades without getting enough intimate touch. Your whole adult life, basically. (I assume you and she adopted your child.) I'm sure you held your child, and maybe you have pets to cuddle, but of course, while that's lovely, it's no replacement for romantic cuddling/sex.

We do cuddle, but very rarely. Our son is ours and was conceived by artificial means.

I do think it's time to see a medical doctor and to seek therapy, maybe individual therapy as well as couples' counseling. It's not too late. You've still got many years ahead of you to experience the full range of adult intimacy.

It's not time right now to open the marriage. You've got lots of learning to do.

I always wonder at partners who won't give their partners sex, but refused to let their partners seek it elsewhere. It just seems cruel. I do have a married friend in somewhat your situation (although he's only in his 30s, and had a very active sex life prior to this current dry spell.) He and his wife haven't had sex in 7 years, since the birth of their daughter. She keeps putting him off. He's too emotionally stunted/fearful to want to push the issue, to open their marriage. He says he loves her and their daughter, and puts that ahead of having sex with her, or with someone else.

As I said I'm fairly certain that she is asexual, and that's just who she is, and it will never change. I'm like your friend, emotionally stunted and fearful of losing a wife who (despite the lack of sex) I love very much and since he came along the impact that would have on our son. I wish I had tackled this long before now, but I didn't. Feel free to use my example as a cautionary tale for your friend, and hopefully he wont have to endure as long as I have.

 

[Fogul]

Did you marry really young and were both virgins with strict religious beliefs? No counseling, workshops, books on sexless marriages in the first few yrs, you just sort of normalized a sexless marriage over time?

Yes, we were both 22 when we married, and at the time religious beliefs prevented us from engaging in pre-marital sex. Yes, you are right: I allowed a sexless marriage to become normalized, and I regret not tackling it head-on more determinedly much earlier on.

Your wife might actually prefer being released from the guilt or shame of having a low or nonexistent sex drive.

I think she might well be relieved not to feel like she had to do something, for my sake, that she really would prefer not to, out of obligation.

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm a bit surprised your wife's doctor (a good gyn, I hope), only suggested vaginal dilation. Vaginismus, combined with asexuality, could have had a hormonal basis. However, I do understand that if your wife was raised in a very sex-negative environment, it could have affected her so deeply that, even when sex was okay (after marriage), she was deeply inhibited, both emotionally and physically. That's very sad, if so. I have heard about this happening in high-control religious groups/cults.

Vaginismus, or vaginal atrophy, can often happen after menopause. (On the other hand, women's sex drives can also increase, you never know...) Wife is probably just fine with never having sex again, since she was never much into it from the start.

It's too bad she won't give you a nice hand job, but oh well!

Yeah, I'd hate my friend to go through what you're going through decade after decade, but he says he's fine with getting a divorce once their kid (they just had one) turns 18. He loves his wife, but I think they'd be better off as platonic friends/coparents, for sure. How old is your son (approximately, I don't want to pry)?

I'd say that you two could be good candidates for an open marriage, or polyamory (along with reading the right books, such as Opening Up, and getting some good couples' counseling), as long as your religious beliefs aren't still getting in the way. You could also divorce and start over, but remain friends.