Is an open marriage right for us?

Did you look at those links about vaginismus and vaginal atrophy I linked? It seems like vaginismus is often linked to trauma. To PTSD, in fact. Maybe your wife was sexually abused when she was very young, which led to her diving into the "safety" of fundamentalist Christianity, and led her to a man (you) who was willing to live a sexless married life. I have no idea if that's true. I am just putting it out there.

Maybe her trauma is deeply buried and she doesn't even consciously remember it.

You started another thread, asking if bringing up an open relationship would feel like a betrayal to the other spouse. It could feel like much more than a matter of "loyalty" to her. There might be a whole angry wasp nest in there, under her mild Christian shell or mask.

At this point, post-menopause, she may also have developed vaginal atrophy, from the normal decrease in estrogen. This is actually not a healthy state, and can lead to increases in UTIs and other infections. I'd encourage her to speak again to her gynecologist about this possible condition. There is info in my links about (gentle) treatments that will help.

I know that some people in sexless marriages who seek therapy can be led to a healthy sex life in stages, by doing the kind of non-sexual touching you also say you crave, with a rule to follow that they must NOT do anything sexual for X amount of time. They are just to enjoy giving each other back massages, or something like that, nothing below the belt. You might start out clothed and go stage by stage. But at this point, you'd need the guidance of a professional, considering your shared history and avoidances.

I can see why being just told to use a vaginal dilator on a tense vagina seemed extremely unappealing and invasive to your wife. She has no desire for sex, but she's supposed to insert tools of increasing size into the place where she may have experienced trauma? It would be much easier just to call that place off limits, and shut down that entire area of her life (sexuality), and just pretend you, her husband, are also fine with this, and willing to be sexless yourself.

There are so many sexual things one can do that don't include being penetrated. But Wife is just not interested in any of it. She's okay with just being a Christian and presenting the appearance of a happy marriage to the world, with this huge elephant in the room in private.

Anyway, someone above mentioned "marriage broken, add more people." You claimed your marriage is not broken, but you wouldn't be here if it was fine.

I am not sure if that's the right step, to just avoid the elephant and open yourself to falling passionately in love with someone else, with the huge added incentive of lots of sex, after an entire life of no sex. This could definitely lead to the end of your marriage, or worse, if there is buried trauma, possibly on both sides. It seems like you two have not sought much medical help, or psychological counseling, and you would certainly benefit from both.
 
Magdlyn said:
Did you look at those links about vaginismus and vaginal atrophy I linked? It seems like vaginismus is often linked to trauma. To PTSD, in fact. Maybe your wife was sexually abused when she was very young, which led to her diving into the "safety" of fundamentalist Christianity, and led her to a man (you) who was willing to live a sexless married life. I have no idea if that's true. I am just putting it out there.

Maybe her trauma is deeply buried and she doesn't even consciously remember it.
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I haven't had the opportunity yet as it was relatively late last night (I'm in the UK) and I've been working today. But next time I have the opportunity, I will read them through. Thank you for providing this.

I don't think this is related to trauma. Early in our marriage, she was referred to a specialist who spoke to her about possible causes, including traumatic history. We discussed it afterwards and she was very clear that there was no such cause. I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist. I don't know if it could be pushed so far back as to not come out in the kind of treatment that she experienced and could remain hidden all these years, but my base assumption is that there is no traumatic cause.

Magdlyn said:
You started another thread, asking if bringing up an open relationship would feel like a betrayal to the other spouse. It could feel like much more than a matter of "loyalty" to her. There might be a whole angry wasp nest in there, under her mild Christian shell or mask.

At this point, post-menopause, she may also have developed vaginal atrophy, from the normal decrease in estrogen. This is actually not a healthy state, and can lead to increases in UTIs and other infections. I'd encourage her to speak again to her gynecologist about this possible condition. There is info in my links about (gentle) treatments that will help.
Click to expand...

She has been seeing a gynaecologist about other issues, which I wont detail here. I believe that this would have been discussed/examined, but I don't know that, so, armed with this information, I will ask if it is something she has discussed with her doctor, and if not, suggest she might want to do so. Thank you for this information.

Magdlyn said:
I know that some people in sexless marriages who seek therapy can be led to a healthy sex life in stages, by doing the kind of non-sexual touching you also say you crave, with a rule to follow that they must NOT do anything sexual for X amount of time. They are just to enjoy giving each other back massages, or something like that, nothing below the belt. You might start out clothed and go stage by stage. But at this point, you'd need the guidance of a professional, considering your shared history and avoidances.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, while I have explained my desire for naked, skin-to-skin cuddles, that is not all I have said. I've been clear that clothes-on cuddling (beyond a basic stand-up hug) and/or any other forms of intimacy she is comfortable with, I am 100% up for. I told her she could create whatever boundaries she wanted and I would abide by them and not try to push for anything more.

I agree the guidance of a professional would no doubt help. I've been slightly put off this by an experience we did have about maybe 6 or 7 years into our marriage, when the counsellor asked if the problem was the inability to conceive as a result. I said that was certainly a factor, but by no means the only one or even the most important one. She suggested conception by artificial means, and became fixated on that, as if the sole purpose of sex were procreation, and that since she had sorted that issue out, the problem was resolved. Just to be clear, this was not a Christian counsellor. I left that experience feeling like I was being unreasonable, once the issue of conception was solved.

Although one good thing to come from that was that 7 or 8 years later we conceived our son by the suggested means.

Magdlyn said:
I can see why being just told to use a vaginal dilator on a tense vagina seemed extremely unappealing and invasive to your wife. She has no desire for sex, but she's supposed to insert tools of increasing size into the place where she may have experienced trauma? It would be much easier just to call that place off limits, and shut down that entire area of her life (sexuality), and just pretend you, her husband, is also fine with this, willing to be sexless himself.
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I can understand that too (to the extent that someone without a vagina ever could). Back then I did encourage her to follow up with other doctors if necessary, but I don't believe she ever did. At least we didn't talk about it, and there was no resolution.

Magdlyn said:
There are so many sexual things one can do that don't include being penetrated. But wife is just not interested in any of it. She's okay with just being a Christian and presenting the appearance of a happy marriage to the world, with this huge elephant in the room in private.
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I know, and I am up for every single one of them. There is nothing that we have done, on the few occasions when we have, that I have not wholeheartedly engaged with, enjoyed and wanted to repeat. Maybe if we tried more things I'd find ones I didn't like, but not so far, and I'm willing to try anything (twice, if necessary).

Magdlyn said:
Anyway, someone above mentioned "marriage broken, add more people." You claimed your marriage is not broken, but you wouldn't be here if it was fine.
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I think what I said was it wasn't broken in any other way than sex, and that I value all the things that are good about our marriage very highly. At least that what I intended to say.

Magdlyn said:
I am not sure if that's the right step, to just avoid the elephant and open yourself to falling passionately in love with someone else, with the huge added incentive of lots of sex, after an entire life of no sex. This could definitely lead to the end of your marriage, or worse, if there is buried trauma, possibly on both sides. It seems like you two have not sought much medical help, or psychological counseling, and you would certainly benefit from both.
Click to expand...

The most important things to me in this respect are:
1) To respect, care for and nurture my wife and to consider her feelings ahead of my own (as disused in previous posts)
2) To enjoy a fulfilling sex life with my wife
3) If 2 isn't possible, to enjoy a fulfilling sex life (without destroying what we have, although I accept what we have will have to change)

I came into this thinking 2 was unlikely to be possible after the research I've done on asexuality, but I never want to give up hope that it is.
 
Fogul said:
I haven't had the opportunity yet, as it was relatively late last night (I'm in the UK) and I've been working today, but next opportunity I will read through.
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Do.
Fogul said:
I don't think this is related to trauma. Early in our marriage, she was referred to a specialist who spoke to her about possible causes including traumatic history. We discussed it afterwards and she was very clear that there was no such cause. I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist. I don't know if it could be pushed so far back as to not come out in the kind of treatment that she experienced and could remain hidden all these years, but my base assumption is that there is no traumatic cause.
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Hmm. Then what was the cause? No ideas at all?
Fogul said:
She has been seeing a gynaecologist about other issues, which I wont detail here. I believe that this would have been discussed/examined, but I don't know that, so armed with this information, I will ask if it is something she has discussed with her doctor and if not suggest she might want to do so. Thank you for this information.
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Sure.
Fogul said:
Just to be clear, while I have explained my desire for naked, skin-to-skin cuddles, that is not all I have said. I've been clear that clothes-on cuddling (beyond a basic stand up hug) and/or any other forms of intimacy she is comfortable with, I am 100% up for. I told her she could create whatever boundaries she wanted and I would abide by them and not try to push for anything more.
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But then the subject was dropped. You waited for her to lead, and she led, by avoiding the subject.
Fogul said:
I agree the guidance of a professional would no doubt help. I've been slightly put off this by an experience we did have about maybe 6 or 7 years into our marriage when the counsellor asked if the problem was the inability to conceive as a result. I said that was certainly a factor, but by no means the only one or even the most important one. She suggested conception by artificial means and she became fixated on that as is the sole purpose of sex was procreation and since she had sorted that issue out the problem was resolved. Just to be clear this was not a Christian counsellor. I left that experience feeling like I was being unreasonable once the issue of conception was solved.
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Not all therapists are created equal. It takes time to find the right therapist. I've had a couple that weren't good, one that was terrible, two good ones, and one great one. I learned so much about myself with the help of the great one. I sought one who was experienced with people in alternative lifestyles, such as attachment parenting, LGBTQ+ issues, kink-friendly, poly-friendly, etc.

You'd need one who specialized in problems around sex.
Fogul said:
I did encourage her to follow up with other doctors if necessary, but I don't believe she ever did. At least we didn't talk about it, and there was no resolution.
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You just let it slide. I have a feeling you're English and maybe have that stiff upper lip thing going on. "I don't want to cause a fuss or a row. I'll just go work in the garden." ;)
Fogul said:
I think what I said was it wasn't broken in any other way than sex, and that I value all the things that are good about our marriage very highly. At least that what I intended to say.
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Sure. But sex is a huge part of being a human adult. I can't imagine the frustration, the loneliness, the feeling of rejection, the low self esteem that could result from a sexless marriage. You and your wife are best friends and coparents, but you can't speak of some very important things. That leads to a big lack of emotional intimacy. Lack of emotional intimacy leads to a lack of physical intimacy; I know this from experience in my marriage.
Fogul said:
The most important things to me in this respect are:
1) To respect, care for and nurture my wife and to consider her feelings ahead of my own
Click to expand...
A better goal might be to put your own needs first, for once, or at least on an equal footing. Letting her lead for 30 years has led to you being very unhappy in this important area. Avoiding a problem, to make sure she doesn't experience any negative emotions, is not a solution. Looking for emotional and sexual intimacy outside your marriage, instead of doing more to at least increase emotional sharing and non-sexual touch with Wife could lead to disaster. You could face this issue head-on. But you need professional help to break the habit of just putting your head down and avoiding the subject altogether.
Fogul said:
2) To enjoy a fulfilling sex life with my wife
3) If 2 isn't possible, to enjoy a fulfilling sex life (without destroying what we have, although I accept what we have will have to change)

I came into this thinking 2 was unlikely to be possible after the research I've done on asexuality, but I never want to give up hope that it is.
Click to expand...
It is insulting, and probably pointless to push sex on asexual people, but more emotional intimacy, and more non-sexual touch, would be healthy goals, to start with.

Don't go dragging another woman into this before you work on resolving your very real sexual problems.
 
Thank you. I just need to think about this more before I can get to a place where I agree that it is worth the risk. Talking here, and the really great advice, empathy and encouragement I'm getting from so many people is definitely helping with that process.
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Exactly. Take all the time you want to think.

I could be wrong, but you seem to be in precontemplation or contemplation, doing your soul searching, somewhere in there.

It's kind of hard to tell over the internet, since there's no voice tone/inflection or body language. But you do seem to want talk it out somewhat and gather your thoughts together before approaching Wife, and that's fine.

Ultimately it's all NORMAL-- these things you are going through and questioning, and thinking about after many years of marriage and at midlife: "Is this all there is? Is this what I want for the second half of my life?" But your story has additional layers to it and it is a lot to unpack. Yes, it can be overwhelming or intimidating to actively think about or deconstruct. Marriage, asexuality, polyamory, putting others ahead of yourself, etc.-- those are all big topics all by themselves. And here you have a lot of big topics bundled together.

Internet people might be able to suggest or help with 1 or 2 things, but this is a lot of things. I do think that, if/when you are ready for it, a counselor could help you better than internet people could. YMMV, but you could think about

https://www.polyfriendly.org/

to seek a few out to see who you could work with. Not all therapists graduated at the top of the class, and not all of them are going to be the right "fit" or "personality" for you. They may not offer the right therapies, either. It may take a bit to find one you can work with, who "clicks" for you.

As for the things I (and others) are asking, don't feel like you have to listen to it all, or answer each one back point-by-point. It's just things to maybe mull over, if they even apply. In the end, you get to decide what you feel like doing about it all.

At this time, what would help you most? What's most pressing on your mind? If you want to keep a blog or journal thread, there's an area for that too.

Life stories and blogs

Share your stories and blog about your current life situations, inspiring others
polyamory.com

HTH!
Galagirl
 
GalaGirl said:
I could be wrong, but you seem to be in precontemplation or contemplation. Doing your soul searching. Somewhere in there.
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That’s exactly what I’m doing, and all the questions people have asked here have really helped me sort through some stuff in my head and clarify what I do/don’t think.

I have booked an individual session with a psychosexual therapist on Saturday morning, one who specialises in ENM, as well as differences in sexual appetite. Hopefully we'll click. If not, thank you for the resource you pointed out.

I think I will start a blog/journal too. I think it will help me to continue clarifying my thoughts, and maybe it might help someone else too, to see the journey I take, wherever that may end.
 
TinCup said:
If she is asexual, there is no cause, just as there is no cause for being homosexual.
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I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that. I meant: was there any emotional reason for the vaginimus? The times I have heard about it happening was when the woman had a great fear of sex, for social or emotional reasons. Often women coming from high-control religious groups are given severely mixed messages about sex. On the one hand, they are taught to be chaste, and to "save themselves for marriage," while, on the other hand, many are sexually abused by their fathers, brothers, other relatives or members of the community/cult. They are abused because the men are also taught fucked-up things about power and control, about sex, about their ownership of women's bodies, etc.

I have read/watched videos of former female cult members who admitted that since sex was so taboo to them prior to marriage, they were unable to desire or enjoy it even after marriage.

However, Fogul's wife (as he explained later) was not raised in a strict Christian community, but chose to enter one in her early teens. Somewhere in there, she learned to not have sex before marriage, and developed vaginismus. Whether she was born asexual, so to speak, or decided (even unconsciously) to avoid sex, because of (perhaps deeply buried) trauma, remains to be seen.

Having vaginismus can lead to gyn check-ups being extremely traumatizing, and being avoided. Many women need a sedative to even allow an exam to happen. (Many can't even use tampons.) Therefore, many health issues of the reproductive organs can go untreated, or undertreated at least.
TinCup said:
It is insulting and pointless to push sex on anyone that doesn't want sex.

Married 41 years to an asexual.
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I have booked an individual session with a psychosexual therapist on Saturday morning, one who specialises in ENM, as well as differences in sexual appetite. Hopefully we'll click. If not, thank you for the resource you pointed out.
Click to expand...

Good for you! I hope it clicks for you and this counselor on Saturday so you can continue to think things out with some professional guidance/support. And if it's not exactly the right fit, maybe get a referral to one who might be. You do not have to rush any of it.

It sounds like you are approaching this calmly and sensibly. One thing at a time.

So again... good for you.

Galagirl
 
Fogul said:
My wife and I have spent over 30 years in a sexless marriage. In our first year of marriage we had sex 8 times. That remains the most we’ve managed in any year since. It has become more sporadic as time has passed. It’s now been over three years since we last had sex.

Now health issues she is going through make it even less likely than ever before.

Despite that, we love each other very much and are both entirely devoted to each other. Many people say a marriage cannot survive such a disparity in sex drive but ours has not only survived, but flourished.

However I’m early/mid fifties and I cannot imagine never having sex again. Should I speak to my wife about having an open marriage? Given her health and lack of interest I doubt if she would take advantage of the openness, although if she did wish to I would be happy for her.
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You should try and open up to her
 
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