Co-dependency and heart ache

[confused88]

Hey all, looking for any advice, support or input from poly community.

Currently in my 30's I identify as mono living with my long term boyfriend (Huckleberry) who identifies strongly as poly. We have together 8 years, been open for 4-5 years now and he is currently online dating 1 other female (Minnie Mouse) for about 3 months

I can get into all the details and minutia but I'll bulletpoint to save time


Hucklberry and I's communication has been for shit lately but we continued to live on "cruise control"

I discovered Hucklberry was keeping a big secret from me about his new rship with Minnie Mouse and it hurt our trust and my heart

This breach in trust lead to me doing some soul searching and reading and identifying strongly as co-dependent and realizing many other things coming up around my family and abuse growing up

I realized I had been building an emotional wall around myself starting about a year or so ago, to cope with a large need not being met by Huckleberry

So now I am having a bit of an identity crisis, trying to figure out the authentic me, ask for what I want and need, not care-take or control things and identify when I'm doing so

I have been seeing a new counselor to help me with my issues, Huckleberry is seeing his own counselor and we have a couples counselor.

Last week when our couples counselor asked us about our needs, I stated that I needed us to step back from Poly for now. In order to rebuild our trust that has been broken, get the core relationship back to a healthier place of good positive communication and to also help support me in my current crisis of dealing with childhood trauma, co-dependency, etc.

Huckleberry replied that he is unwilling to "pump the breaks" on poly and unwilling to adjust his romantic/sexual relationship with Minnie Mouse to a friendship level.

I am really hurting now and feeling like I am trying to be vulnerable and ask for what I need (which is very difficult for me) and Huckleberry is unwilling to meet my need. I understand that we are all individuals with our own choices to make, but I am suffering a lot right now and I thought that he would be able to meet my need.

I love him deeply and we have built a life together that I do not want to give up. However I do not want to do myself a dis-service by attempting to meet all my own needs for trauma counseling, rebuilding trust with Huckleberry, working on our communication and then on top of that trying to meet all of Huckleberrys needs for Poly.

Hucklyberry claims that he wants to be there for me through the difficult stuff, but I'm not sure he realizes how much he's asking of me. I have always tried to be a good partner and meet his wants and needs and I understand that I am now asking him to make a sacrifice but I feel like I would do the same for him if he was hurting and needed me to make him my sole priority.

I know he cares of Minnie Mouse and doesn't want to lose either of us but I am having a very hard time trying to see how I can move forward with Poly right now. I am not trying to be mean or controlling, though I could see how it may come across that way. I don't want to hurt Huckleberry either but I have hope that if we can get through this rough patch that we can re-open again in a much better place.

Does anyone have experience as a poly person with being asked to step away from dating others for a time? How did that feel? My heart wants to try and give him what he wants but I am worried that is the people-please, care-taker, co-dependent talking and that I really need to stand up for my own needs.

I would appreciate any guidance. I love my partner, things are not perfect but I do not think that exists. I know he loves me unconditionally and likely always will but is that enough when needs don't match up? Is there a way to get through this or compromise where one or both of us don't end up feeling resentful or forced into something we don't want to do?

Thank you all in advance, I am struggling right now. I don't want to leave my relationship and the life I've built but I want to make healthy decisions.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

I realized I had been building an emotional wall around myself starting about a year or so ago, to cope with a large need not being met by Huckleberry

What was the unmet need that caused you to throw up walls?

Does anyone have experience as a poly person with being asked to step away from dating others for a time? How did that feel? My heart wants to try and give him what he wants but I am worried that is the people-please, care-taker, co-dependent talking and that I really need to stand up for my own needs.

I think that depends. What were your agreements before Minnie Mouse arrived on the scene? I see where you say you identify as mono and BF is poly. But what relationship model were you practicing?

• A Closed or Monogamous model? So starting up with Minnie was breaking / cheating on agreements?
  
• An Open or poly model? So starting up with Minnie was not breaking agreements? Just started at an awkward time because you were discovering/realizing all this buried trauma stuff?

Galagirl

 

[confused88]

Thank you GalalGirl

I'm sorry you struggle.

What was the unmet need that caused you to throw up walls?

My need was for marriage. Huckleberry had been married before so this was a need that I was mindful about and tried to give him time and space to figure out on his own.

However I did make a point to clearly communicate with him that it was a need for me and if it was something he decided he did not want to let me know. He never let me know he didn't want it, but every time I would bring it up he would indicate he wasn't ready.

I began to feel like I was nagging or trying to convince him and I didn't like that feeling so I stopped bringing it up. Unfortunately in doing so I began to build up this wall.

Recently (as in within the last 3-4 weeks) he indicated to me that he had actually began thinking about it a year ago but never told me. He said he was considering it seriously enough to discuss with his counselor and thinking about also talking with his parents about it.

Unfortunately shortly after this talk was when I discovered multiple agreement breaks, boundary crossings with his rship with Minnie Mouse and everything kind of went into a tail spin.

I think that depends. What were your agreements before Minnie Mouse arrived on the scene? I see where you say you identify as mono and BF is poly. But what relationship model were you practicing?

• A Closed or Monogamous model? So starting up with Minnie was breaking / cheating on agreements?
  
• An Open or poly model? So starting up with Minnie was not breaking agreements? Just started at an awkward time because you were discovering/realizing all this buried trauma stuff?

We were in an open poly model and it was the trust breaks with his rship with Minnie Mouse that spurred me to discover that my buried trauma/co-dependency stuff was what had been going on for me.

So now he has strong feelings for Minnie Mouse and I feel like I am being asked to rebuild trust with him, deal with all my issues, improve communication around all things including poly all whilst being okay with him continuing to date her/continue poly all at the same time.

I hope that sheds a little more light on the current happenings.

Galagirl[/QUOTE]

 

[Magdlyn]

My need was for marriage. Huckleberry had been married before, so this was a need that I was mindful about, and I tried to give him time and space to figure things out on his own.

I wouldn't say wanting to be married is a need, exactly. It's a desire, a preference. Some people don't like the idea of marriage. It sounds like Huckleberry would rather not be married, since he is poly. Many women won't date a married poly guy, but will date an unmarried one. These women don't want to feel like they are "second class" when compared to the rights of a wife.

Maybe Huckleberry and you were initially compatible but aren't long term compatible. If, after 3 years of monogamy, and 5 years of being Open/poly, he isn't into marriage, what are the chances he ever will be?

It's fine to ask for what you want. And the other person has every right to refuse to meet your "need" or fulfill your desire.

However, I did make a point to clearly communicate with him that it was a need for me, and if it was something he decided he did not want, to let me know. He never let me know he didn't want it, but every time I would bring it up, he would indicate he wasn't ready. I began to feel like I was nagging or trying to convince him, and I didn't like that feeling, so I stopped bringing it up. Unfortunately, in doing so, I began to build up this wall.

Recently (as in within the last 3-4 weeks) he indicated to me that he had actually begun thinking about it a year ago, but never told me. He said he was considering it seriously enough to discuss with his counselor, and thinking about also talking with his parents about it.

That just sounds like foot dragging. "He's thinking about talking to his parents" about getting married? He's a grown man. Why do the parents need to put their 2 cents in?

If he's been mulling it over for a year, and hasn't decided to enthusiastically say "Yes" to your marriage proposal, I kinda think that's a "No." Good poly takes open communication. It sounds like you 2 have communication problems.

Unfortunately, shortly after this talk was when I discovered multiple agreement breaks, and boundary crossings with his r-ship with Minnie Mouse, and everything kind of went into a tail spin.

Have you made "rules" about how he may date? Unless it's something to do with pregnancy, or condom use for STD purposes, I can't imagine what you mean.

We were in an open poly model, and it was the trust breaks with his r-ship with Minnie Mouse that spurred me to discover that my buried trauma/co-dependency stuff was what had been going on for me.

So now he has strong feelings for Minnie Mouse, and I feel like I am being asked to rebuild trust with him, deal with all my issues, improve communication around all things including poly, all whilst being okay with him continuing to date her/continue poly all at the same time.

It takes 2 to have good communication. You can't improve it without his cooperation.

You've been Open for 5 years and now you want him to break if off and stop dating everyone, including this woman who is fairly new to him, where there is probably NRE going on? Why stop now after 5 years? Were you always just agreeing to do poly to "please" Huckleberry, and now you've decided you don't want to date a poly man, you want to find a mono man who is interested in marriage, someone more conventional?

You can change, but you can't force others to change.

 

[17642990gk294]

My former Meta Brianna suffered from insecurities and the feeling of demotion, when our shared partner Arthur began dating me more seriously.
She asked both Arthur and me to "take a step back" and for me to basically build back the relationship to a friendship.
I told her (and Arthur) that I was not looking for a friendship but a romantic relationship and that I would not take a step back without Arthur asking me to do so - de-fact breaking up with me. As for Arthur, he felt that Brianna was overstepping (by trying to mitigate a problem that was in the Brianna-Arthur relationship by reaching over into the Arthur-me relationship) and told her that they could work on their own problems, but my relatinoship with him had nothing to do with that.
I was glad about that, because had he agreed to submit our relationship to any form of "external control" from another person, I would have left him on the spot - I am a person after all, and deserving of the same level of autonomy and decisional power in my own realtionships as her.


Please know that I mean this kindly. I've been told I am quite blunt, it's a trait of the country I live and since English isn't my first language that might add to some of my wit getting lost in translation:
I don't think you will be able to fix whatever issues you are experiencing by trying to control the relationship Huckelberry has with Minnie.
Imagine it this way, if you will: would you built back your relationship with him to a friendship (for an unknow amount of time) if Minnie Mouse was going through something and she asked him to? I suspect not, and that if you did, there would be a fair amount of resentment and hurt to go around - not just between you and him, but also him and Minnie. So why do you assume that it is okay for you to ask that of them?

You keep bringing up boundary breaks, but I'm not sure if what you really mean is rule breaks:
- A boundary is about yourself e.g. "I expect plans made with my partner to be honoured and not be changed at the last minute (without emergency). I will not make plans with a partner if they keep standing me up."
- A rule is about the other e.g. "I don't want you to make plans with your other partners without informing me and asking my permission first. If you don't ask me first you are not allowed to go and you will have to stop seeing the other person."
So while a boundry is meant to structure our own actions, a rule is usually imposing your preference on others.

I hear that you feel your need for stability and marriage can only be met when you *both* take a step back from poly - but in your second message you say that your partner for the longest time just didn't want to marry, poly or not. So I don't really see how poly is the problem?

From the way your text is phrased (a lot of "us", describing yourself as "core" couple) I am assuming you are actually dealing with the "illusion of couples privilege" coming apart, fear of demotion and the realzation that "primary" status is often a bad ally when used prescriptively.
Maybe instead of focusing on Huckleberries relationship with Minnie, consider instead that a lot of the things you want (stability, marriage, trust-building) are really just between you and Huckleberry
You can work on all of those like in any other mono relationship.

 

[FallenAngelina]

If, after 3 years of monogamy, and 5 years of being Open/poly, he isn't into marriage, what are the chances he ever will be?....If he's been mulling it over for a year, and hasn't decided to enthusiastically say "Yes" to your marriage proposal, I kinda think that's a "No."

I'm calling this part to your attention, Confused, because the thing about stating needs is that asking big things of others can never make up for what we lack in ourselves. There's lots of popular advice to "state your needs" and put yourself out there, but if those needs are fear-based and needful feeling, then you're just asking the other person to assuage fears that the other person never can. People who need in a needful way (in efforts to mitigate fears) attract people who wishy-wash. A "yes" from a wishy-washy person is misery. I've seen it, I know it. You do not want to marry a wishy-washy "yes," you want to marry a joyful "yes." The only way to get to joyful "yes," either with Huckleberry or with someone else, is to get to a much better place with your own co-dependent issues yourself. It never, ever, ever, ever works to ask another person to give you the emotional security that you lack in yourself. If you try, as your own life experience shows you, you wind up in wishy-washy non-comital, guilt-resentment relationships.

We always draw to us the partners that reflect what we've got going on inside ourselves. The way to make positive and lasting changes that are deeply meaningful and satisfying is not to move other people around, extract promises or wait for others to do what we need them to do. The way to make positive, long lasting changes is to make changes in ourselves. Take this opportunity to make some great changes by removing your needful focus off of Huckleberry and instead placing your focus on what you are bringing to the situation. Look at your relationship with Huckleberry as valuable feedback for and a source of insight about yourself. What does this relationship tell you regarding how you go about loving someone? There's so much that can be changed for the better here, but waiting for or needing someone else to change is an infinite rabbit hole of resentment. You are the one who can make huge changes and the only way things will change is if you do.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Actually a friend described what I think is going on here in a really good way, I'll try and copy it.

Imagine you're a little kid playing a game in your neighborhood with other local kids. There's this one kid you like to play with, and other people don't mind if they're in the game, but the bad thing about them is that they want to make all the decisions about what game you play and what part you each play in it.

The worse thing about this kid is that if you do not abide by these rules when you play the game, even if they aren't playing at that very time, the kid will make sure nobody enjoys the game and therefore it becomes burdensome and frustrating for everyone involved.

Eventually, since the other people really aren't as bothered about playing with the person as you are, those other people decide to leave you and the problematic person playing alone. They go off and play with other kids who don't need all those rules to have fun.

That's when you make a choice. Are you going to stay and play alone with this needy kid, or are you going to go off where you can thrive and although you might lose needy kid, you'll have a wider choice of people to play with?

 

[FallenAngelina]

This is widely considered to be the starter kit for recovery from codependence. Highly recommended. You are never dependent on anyone else to change relationships and your life for the better.

 

[Inaniel]

This situation brings back lot of memories for myself. If Huckleberry does not want to get married, all you can do is accept it or move on. My wife put a lot of pressure on me to get married specifically when I was growing close to another woman, it had symbolic meaning to her and I think she sought safety from it. We did end up getting married when it made sense financially, it was business for me, symbolic for her… Marriage did not change the dynamic between her and I, or between my girlfriend and I, at all… Probably because it doesn’t have the same meaning for both of us.

After over a decade of practicing poly, somehow I wound up in a kitchen table relationship with one mono woman, and another mostly mono woman. Both of my partners struggle with co-dependency, and I think I probably do a little too, both of my partners have read the book FallenAngelina recommended, as well as many other books on the subject. My wife and I have been able to work on our relationship with my gf in the picture and vise-versa.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but the idea that you need to create a very specific and difficult to contain environment in order to work on yourself and your relationship is you putting up walls to your own progress. You don’t need any of that stuff to work on yourself, or your relationship. It is regrettable that Hucklberry hurt you through violations of boundaries, perhaps you were imposing rules on his other relationships? If so, that is a very hard road to go down and it’s just asking to feel violated. Attraction, love, lust, these are highly emotional feelings and logic tends to break down in people quickly, which is why imposing rules in these areas can easily lead to heartbreak; most on this forum would not recommend it…

 

[confused88]

Thank you everyone for your replies, I will try to address a few things here.

Sorry to not be clear about the rule breaks and boundary things, sometimes getting the correct verbiage can be tricky. We have a set of agreements that we sat down and discussed and which we revisit from time to time, this is what I am referring to as the "rules".

When I say boundaries, I guess I am referring to un-written agreements or things I expect from my partner- ie: to not put my health at risk, to care about my input and care about my feelings, etc.

We had an agreement in place to not add other s/o's on social media because we are not currently public with our relationship type. He added Minnie Mouse to his FB and didn't tell me.

One big boundary thing that came up was that after 2 weeks of online chatting with Minnie Mouse, Huckleberry came to me and wanted to meet her IRL. Usually this is our norm, but now we're currently living in global pandemic and our state (we're in the US) is literally one of the hot spots and has been for a while. So when he said he wanted to meet this new person, in-person, it really bothered me that he was willing to put his own and my health at risk. We discussed and I told him I was not willing to risk my health for anyone right now (I have even told family not to visit etc) but to meet a new partner and possibly exchange saliva/bodily fluids and possibly contract Covid seemed extremely high risk and careless. He agreed and I thought he saw that I was trying to keep us safe, however he brought it up again 2 weeks later. I had a bit of an emotional time during this second conversation because we had been hearing of many more people dying, healthy young people getting sick and going into the hospital. Hearing how once you go into the hospital for Covid that no one can visit you and many people are dying alone because of this. Also he told me that she was immuno-compromised. So what I was seeing was risky, potentially life risking behavior which doesn't mesh with who my partner usually is. So while this was not a rule/agreement, it was very difficult for me to feel safe with the choices he was wanting to make around health.

We also had an agreement to inform each-other when things went to the next level with a new person. ie: going from talking to someone casually to them actually becoming a partner. In the past this has looked like Huckleberry telling me when he was going on a romantic vs. friendship date with someone, when they would be physical (ie: I kissed her, I'm booking a hotel so we can have sex, not a bunch of details but I knew it was happening) and when feelings began to be seriously involved.

With Minnie Mouse, I found out they had virtual sex - ie: mutual masturbation on video chat and he never told me. I had no idea they were in that place sexually.

We had an agreement about no lying and no lying by omission. So what set this whole spiral off was I discovered he had told Minnie Mouse "I love you" and had been lying by omission and directly lying (I had asked him specifically if there was anything he was keeping from me or anything we needed to talk about) to me for about a week. To be clear my issues is NOT that he said those words and has those feelings for her, I understand we can not help who and how quickly we have feelings. My issue is that we've been together for 8 years, I consider Huckleberry my person and we have a life together, so to actively lie to me is a big hurtful betrayal in my book.

So all these things combined, with the last thing of actually lying to me, was what got us to a place of damaged trust, rocky relationship, re-evaluating where we are.

This is where I started to do my own digging into myself and figured out the stuff i mentioned in the OP. I have childhood sexual trauma, I have a family that has and still in very dysfunctional and part of that is addiction/alcoholism with other family member which I suspect spurred my co-dependency.

These things were very difficult to realize about myself and my childhood. Things that I didn't think had affected me as a person absolutely had. I had never been given a lot of tools around communication, love, trust, etc. These are things I always thought I was good at, so it's been a big wake up call.

Also to address the marriage stuff, I see it as a need, I can see how other people can see it as a preference and I understand that. And I also agree that an enthusiastic YES was what I was hoping for but that maybe his foot dragging is his version of NO. As I said in my OP he has been married before and went through a difficult divorce so I have always tried to be understanding of where he was at and his hesitations. I own my part in dropping the ball around communication with this topic, and instead figured I would never get it from him and hence began to build a sub-conscious wall around myself.

With where we're at now, marriage to me is on a Very Back Burner.

Right now I'm having a hard time seeing how we come back from all this, if we can, if we should, etc.

I realize my co-dependency is a big thing for me and in the past I have wanted to people-please, care-take, meet others wants and needs even when it took a toll on me emotionally. I have sacrificed my own wants and needs to make others happy and I know now that's not healthy. I have tried to control situations, have had a hard time making decisions, struggled with feeling worthy, etc.

I want to be a better person, a better partner, a better communicator etc. I want to work on my shit and not let my childhood trauma/family dynamics rule my life forever.

But how do you rebuild trust with someone who's hurt you so deeply and then seems to be unwilling to make compromises on their side?

I am struggling with the feeling that I am being asked to "get over all of it" and forge ahead with my partner without any sense of making a mends or balancing our scales.

From most of the things I have read about Poly over the years, things such as honesty, trust, communication, honoring agreements come up over and over again. I feel as though these things have been thrown into a shredder over the last few months, so it's like "what now?".

I understand that I can't look for any partner to meet all of my needs, that I need to meet my own needs. But I also feel like a partner should enhance your life, not make it more difficult. And as of now I feel like instead of helping take my load, my partner is asking me to pile more on.

I do not think Poly in itself is the problem, I think Poly was where the problems manifested. But I also feel like Poly takes all parties involved to consent and be mentally and emotionally available in order to make it work successfully.

I feel like I am spinning a lot of my own plates - dealing with my recently identified issues - trying to rebuild trust in a partner who has lied to and hurt me - trying to meet my own needs and practice self care - I am also spinning "Huckleberry and I" plates - work on communication - re-discovering where the other person is at and where wants, needs, agreements lay.

So the Poly plates feel like too much, I understand this may be an unfair ask of Huckleberry and based on things he has said it is something he is unwilling to do.

So do I just do my best to spin all these plates? Meet all of his wants and needs while severely struggling with my own and with rebuilding our relationship or is that bound to fail? I know none of the paths are easy, none are ideal in this moment but I am trying to make healthy decisions that don't lead to resentments or more problems within myself.

I love him but I am also learning to love myself.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I have a family that has and still in very dysfunctional and part of that is addiction/alcoholism with other family member which I suspect spurred my co-dependency.

So do I just do my best to spin all these plates?

Poly is really not the issue here. Poly can be healthy or poly can be a mess. Poly goes about as well as whatever the participants bring to it.

This is about everything that you bring to relationships. Everything you're describing is classic co-dependent dysfunctional family stuff that you're repeating now on a poly stage. Alcohol and drug addiction may be part of codependence, but many families teach this way of managing relationships without the substance. My experience is that nobody can recover from this alone or just by reading books or by consulting well meaning friends. To truly change, everyone needs a community of recovery that fosters fellowship, healthy modeling and accountability. I highly recommend Al-Anon. There are meetings everywhere and especially now that meetings are happening on Zoom. Feel free to PM me if you'd like more specific info on this. Al-Anon is about learning to live a healthy life no matter what anyone else is choosing to do, especially our partners. Plate spinning is a symptom of dysfunction. Any time you feel like you're spinning too many plates, especially if those plates involve other people, you are living in codependency and dysfunction and PAIN. (Happy people with lots of activity do not feel like they are spinning plates, they feel like their life is satisfying and fulfilling.) There are so many resources available that can help you practice a healthier and a happier way of life. This goes way beyond getting a few tips and insights from a forum on the internet. Your life definitely can be happy and healthy, but it takes long term participation in a community full of mature, experienced and dedicated peers. It's just like an alcoholic committing to sobriety. It's definitely possible to do, but nobody does it alone and nobody does it with a few quick tips.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

"We had an agreement in place to not add other s/o's on social media because we are not currently public with our relationship type. He added Minnie Mouse to his FB and didn't tell me."

The other way you could read this is that he made an unwise decision to agree to pace his relationships at a speed that made you comfortable. He then found that it doesn't align with how those relationships evolve. He then prioritized the natural evolution of those relationships over the rules he made with you before he knew how he would feel.




"Usually this is our norm, but now we're currently living in global pandemic and our state (we're in the US) is literally one of the hot spots and has been for a while. So when he said he wanted to meet this new person, in-person, it really bothered me that he was willing to put his own and my health at risk. We discussed and I told him I was not willing to risk my health for anyone right now (I have even told family not to visit etc) but to meet a new partner and possibly exchange saliva/bodily fluids and possibly contract Covid seemed extremely high risk and careless. He agreed and I thought he saw that I was trying to keep us safe, however he brought it up again 2 weeks later. I had a bit of an emotional time during this second conversation because we had been hearing of many more people dying, healthy young people getting sick and going into the hospital. Hearing how once you go into the hospital for Covid that no one can visit you and many people are dying alone because of this. Also he told me that she was immuno-compromised. So what I was seeing was risky, potentially life risking behavior which doesn't mesh with who my partner usually is. So while this was not a rule/agreement, it was very difficult for me to feel safe with the choices he was wanting to make around health."

As you leave co-dependency behind,you'll feel comfortable acknowledging that this is his risk to take and you can keep yourself safe by shielding from him while he engages in behavior you feel is too much of a risk.




"We also had an agreement to inform each-other when things went to the next level with a new person. ie: going from talking to someone casually to them actually becoming a partner. In the past this has looked like Huckleberry telling me when he was going on a romantic vs. friendship date with someone, when they would be physical (ie: I kissed her, I'm booking a hotel so we can have sex, not a bunch of details but I knew it was happening) and when feelings began to be seriously involved.

With Minnie Mouse, I found out they had virtual sex - ie: mutual masturbation on video chat and he never told me. I had no idea they were in that place sexually."

For me, this sort of expectation feels wrong. Sometimes, I might feel things for a person that I haven't admitted to myself, yet, out loud, let alone them or my nesting partner, Jules. So to feel I'd have to tell Jules as and when I feel things or want things with someone else, or when I think we might have sex, it would feel unnatural and intrusive. It would give that relationship and partner a presence in my other relationships that just wouldn't work long term.



"We had an agreement about no lying and no lying by omission. So what set this whole spiral off was I discovered he had told Minnie Mouse "I love you" and had been lying by omission and directly lying (I had asked him specifically if there was anything he was keeping from me or anything we needed to talk about) to me for about a week. To be clear my issues is NOT that he said those words and has those feelings for her, I understand we can not help who and how quickly we have feelings. My issue is that we've been together for 8 years, I consider Huckleberry my person and we have a life together, so to actively lie to me is a big hurtful betrayal in my book."

I have a friend that is a foster parent. She expects her foster children to lie when they do something wrong because they're so scared of being rejected or punished for not being what someone expects of them. I think people can get into that rut when they feel like they're rela feelings will lead to a bad outcome. That could be harsh judgement, the loss of a relationship or abuse.

My experience with traumatized partners has sometimes been that they expect their trauma to take precedence over everyone else's needs. They'll often blame their history for creating an ultimatum for people where they have to choose to either deal with all the ill consequences of the trauma or lose the person. But actually it is the person that chooses for that to be the case. I've had other partners with trauma who have been severely affected in their relationships and of course it has had an impact, but their ability to draw the line at what they expect from their partners has made the relationship healthy and therefore viable.

I know traumatized people who have to say no to poly because their trauma means they just cannot trust like that. Not when so much intimacy is involved. I don't think of those as weak. Quite the opposite.

If you really want your partner to be honest with you, you have to create an environment where he won't be unduly punished for bad news. That means if you say that something is a deal breaker, you need to mean it and follow through. Another thing common in these situations will be where the person in your shoes says that if the partner does X with other people, no hard feelings but it will have to be over. They don't mean it, they just REALLY don't want their partner to WANT to do X and threatening (because that's what it is) to leave if they do seems a good way to cajole them into their way of thinking.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info. Let me repeat back what I understand so I know I got it how you meant it. Please correct me if I get it in the wrong ballpark. I quote just to visually block it off. Blue is mine.

PEOPLE

• You
• Huckleberry
• Minnie Mouse – new GF to Huckleberry

PERSONAL BACKGROUND

• You have childhood sexual trauma

• You family of origin is very dysfunctional

• One family member deals in addiction/alcoholism which you suspect spurred your co-dependency

• You are seeing a counselor to work on these issues

RELATIONSHIP BACKGROUND

• You and Huckleberry have been together a total of 8 years. These last few years practicing an open model where it is mono on your side and poly on his side.

• You want to be married. Whenever you bring it up, Huckleberry keeps putting that conversation on the shelf. So the answer is no, he doesn't want to get married.

• Last year you figured that he's still "meh" on marriage where you really want to be married. To cope with that disappointment, you started putting a wall around yourself rather than break up and move on to a partner who CAN offer you marriage.

• He started dating Minnie Mouse about 3 months ago without telling you she became a partner as per agreements.

• It's only now that he got caught out with the Minnie things that he's changed it to “Been thinking about marriage without telling you, have to talk to my parents.” (Are you worried this is a new way to keep you on the string hoping, but still kicking the can down the road avoiding rather than being honest with you and saying "No, I don't want marriage" instead? )

POLY AGREEMENTS THAT WERE BROKEN

• Not add other s/o's on social media because you both are not currently “out” as practicing poly to other people. He added Minnie Mouse to his FB and didn't tell you.

• No meeting new partners/sharing sex with new people while living in a COVID-19 hot spot. He agreed but then kept pushing to meet her. His willingness to put his and your health/exposure at risk bothers you a lot.

• To inform the other when a new relationship goes from “friend” to “lover/partner." He shared virtual sex/masturbation with Minnie Mouse without tell you that it changed from friends to lover/partner.

• Agreement not to lie to each other/not do lies of omission. You found out he'd been lying/doing lies of omission about his relationship with Minnie. You don't mind that he loves her. You mind that he had been lying to you to your face when you asked him directly and he had said “no, nothing is going on.” And now you know something WAS going on.

Is this the main points? If so? Whew! No wonder you are feeling full and maybe overwhelmed.

But how do you rebuild trust with someone who's hurt you so deeply and then seems to be unwilling to make compromises on their side?

I mean this kindly ok? I think if in the end you want to be married? And Huckleberry just doesn't share that want? And now there's all this other lying and betrayal baggage now? I'd decide to break up with him.

I would decide NOT to bother building trust and all that.

I would solve it all by choosing NOT to put a lot of energy into trying to come back from it. Just call it done. Forgive, but not forget. And move on.

I get that after 8 years you built a life together and its hard to imagine different. But I really think you are at a crossroads of life. Esp if you are trying to stop being a people pleaser and meet your OWN needs first rather than always putting you last and other people stuff ahead in the line.

With all these behaviors Huckleberry has been doing today... would you pick him out to date today? Or would he not even make the cut?

Sometimes people are there in your life all the way through. Sometimes only for a season.

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get the one. And if marriage is super important to you and Huckleberry's been not excited about that? Even if he suddenly wants to “think about getting married” now? That's nice. He can think on it. But you can just decide for YOU now. And say “Great. But it won't be marriage with me. I'm moving on.” Because there's all these other lies and things now. And because sometimes things come “too little too late” you know?

You were ALREADY putting up walls in order to keep staying here. Maybe the thing that needs to change is your staying-ness. So you don't need to put up walls and be "on guard" inside your relationship. Maybe you want something else. So maybe you choose to move on so things can improve for you.

Not figuring out how to survive this relationship by putting up walls. Or how to survive by spinning an inordinate amount of plates by yourself. But figuring out how to actually THRIVE in your life.

I am struggling with the feeling that I am being asked to "get over all of it" and forge ahead with my partner without any sense of making ammends or balancing our scales.

So he wants to just sweep it under the rug and you to “just get over it?” Do you prefer a partner who handles problems different than that?

From most of the things I have read about Poly over the years, things such as honesty, trust, communication, honoring agreements come up over and over again. I feel as though these things have been thrown into a shredder over the last few months, so it's like "what now?".

You could decide you want a partner who DOES do honesty, trust, communication, honors agreements, etc and values all that as you value that.

Could decide Huckleberry's current behaviors no longer meets your personal standards for what you want in a partner.

Could accept that with the "sweep it under the rug" thing, he's not interested in changing any of his current behaviors.

And you get to decide what you will and will not put up with from this point forward.

I understand that I can't look for any partner to meet all of my needs, that I need to meet my own needs. But I also feel like a partner should enhance your life, not make it more difficult. And as of now I feel like instead of helping take my load, my partner is asking me to pile more on.

Well, if Huckleberry is not enhancing your life, makes your life difficult, adds to your load rather than take away... why keep being his partner?

This crossroads may mean realizing this relationship (while having had some good parts in the past) has come to a natural end because you are just no longer compatible and no longer share values.

I suggest reflecting and doing your soul searching and talking to your counselor.

It's ok to decide you are done investing here. You don't HAVE to keep going just because you were here for 8 years.

You can decide to just plain DROP some plates. You don't have to spin them all or spin more than you can take. That is one way to do your own self care. To do less.

And if anyone is surprised or asks? You say "Yeah, I choose not to do that any more. I'm choosing to rest." And let the plates remain on the floor.

Galagirl

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

I personally agree with GG. It isn't worth the effort with huckleberry. You two have vastly different relationship style preferences and long term goals.

Therapy. Heal as much as you can. Meet someone who DOES want marriage and is willing to support you in your efforts to overcome trauma. You seem open to poly as long as it is a heirarchical model where you as wife/primary get extra consideration. Nothing inherently wrong with that as long as everyone is in board. I personally don't love it, but it is what it is and some people are into it.

I don't think your requests were any more controlling that many mono partners' when they're first adapting to poly. He could have said no from the get go. He didn't. He agreed. Then he lied instead of bringing it up when he was no longer willing to do it. He purposefully broke agreements which IS cheating.

I'm sorry you're going through this. If you do decide to stick it out with huckleberry I wish you luck. If you decide to move on, I wish you luck. Either way it's going to be hard.

 

[vinsanity0]

Like some of the others, I see this as a compatibility issue. He is poly and you are mono. Even after 5 years you view things through the mono lens, rather than a poly-friendly lens.

He wants autonomy. He doesn't want to have to walk you step by step through each interaction he has with others. He values his other relationships.

You want to control his actions to make yourself feel comfortable. You want marriage. You want him to discard another human being to make you feel better.

If you think about it, he has been doing all the work to keep you comfortable. As mentioned in the previous post, this is a common mistake made by the poly half of a poly/mono couple. Did he know he was agreeing to these rules forever? Or did he think maybe you would be okay with poly after awhile. Five years is a long time for him to wait.

I'm not sure how having the autonomy he seeks translates into codependency for you. Isn't getting married, trying to have veto power, etc more codependent than "letting" him date others independent of your watchful eye?

The thing is, neither of you are right or wrong. You both just have different ideas if how you want to conduct a relationship. It happens a lot.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi confused,

I don't know if you have considered this? but there is more than just Huckleberry's feelings on the line, there is also Minnie Mouse's feelings to consider. How would you feel if you were Minnie Mouse, and Huckleberry abruptly cut things off with you? It's not like Minnie Mouse has done anything to deserve to be hurt. On the other hand, you may feel that Minnie Mouse's feelings are not your problem, that Huckleberry should be the one who worries about that. And you definitely shouldn't be a doormat, especially out of being a people pleaser and co-dependent. If you still feel that this is something you need, for Huckleberry to step back from poly (even if it hurts Minnie Mouse), then stand up for yourself and tell him that you insist on it. Hopefully he will understand that this is not an area in which you are willing to compromise. I hope it doesn't come down to breaking up with him, but that is a possibility you'll probably have to consider.

I wish you the best, hang in there,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[confused88]

Thank you everyone, I appreciate all the input. Currently I do not feel confident enough to be able to make a decision either way. I will be working with my counselor more intensely to try to make it thru this difficult time.

I know I pointed out all the struggles with Huckleberry and I, but if there wasn't a lot of good things then it would be easy to walk away.

He has been my rock with major losses in my life, deaths of friends and family. He loves me unconditionally, even when we discuss un-coupling he tells me he wants me to be okay and wants to still be there for me. I believe he is a good man but that he has made some big mistakes and is failing to see the hurt and damage that is now done.

I do care about him and do not want to hurt him (or hurt Minnie Mouse) but I do not want to hurt either. So I will be focusing on getting to a better place within myself so that I can try to make a healthy decision.

I want a partner that is honest, even when it is hard. I want a partner who wants my input and appreciates my opinions and thoughts. I want marriage and want a partner who also wants that.

I do my best to navigate Poly in a way that meets his needs, and it is difficult because him and I are different and he would likely be fine with no written agreements. But he also knows that I identified as Mono and that most of our agreements are around communication, honesty and safety (safe sex, etc). They are not rules around how he dates, but I guess I do feel better when I am informed of what is going on either before or after it happens.

I understand that maybe he felt too confined within our agreements but he had agreed to them and I think it was on him to bring them up to re-negotiate instead of steam-rolling over them and then expecting me to be flexible and understanding.

If anyone has any recommendations on how to handle this time of limbo for me, that would be appreciated.

We are co-habitating, which likely won't change right now, but we are sleeping in separate rooms. He works from home and I work part time so I am out of the house about 15-20 hours a week for that. We have mainly been able to be cordial and even have some enjoyable times.

After a very difficult couples session on Monday, we did have about 30 minutes of extreme emotional distress, arguing, crying, etc. He chose to go for a drive immediately after and by the time he got home we had both come back to a calmer place. But emotions are still on edge.

Before Monday, we were still hugging, holding hands, quick pecks before bed, "I love you's" etc, but since Monday's difficult couples session that has all stopped. So now we are more in a roommate place. We are still eating some meals together, watching a little tv but there is definitely much more distance and tension. I think we do need some distance in order for me to clear my fog, but it is also difficult to feel alone in a home with someone you love.

I am trying to focus on self-care. Doing lots of reading, journaling, getting a massage etc. I have looked up Al-anon meetings, have been reading about co-dependency, more poly books, emotional intelligence books, Forgiving the Unforgivable. I am trying to be out of the house more to give him his own alone time as well. I am trying to be kind to my partner and myself.

Thank you all, some feedback feels harsh to receive and it is interesting to me how widely the responses vary...from "it's not him, it's you" to "leave him because he doesn't want what you want". It makes me feel a little better since I have had all these same thoughts plus 1000 more.

People and Love and Relationship Styles and Life aren't usually black and white. But I do think I can do my own work and at least get to a point where I can feel confident to either stay or go, without making that decision out of fear.

I appreciate all the wisdom and experience that you all have shared so far and I strive to learn more and do better, whatever that looks like.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

They are rules around how he dates. He has to constantly update you on how he feels about other people and what he thinks might happen with them. That's really heavy!

I dont think the mistakes he made were all that huge because I strongly believe that people will not be honest if they feel they will be reprimanded for how they feel. How do you receive bad news? If there were going to be tears tantrums and turmoil every time I heard something that doesn't suit me, I wouldn't be surprised if people started to keep things from me. There is a responsibility on us to handle bad news in a way that doesn't.... scare people.

Whenever I hear "but they agreed to it", I always think about the conditions the person agreed. Were they coerced and badgered and emotionally blackmailed, or did they have the freedom to express their views and opinions without fear?

Theres a big difference between:

"I need this from a partner. It is definitely a need and isn't something I could live without

"

And

"I need this from a partner AND any decent human would be happy to give that. If you loved and respected me and wasn't just in it for yourself, you would have no problem agreeing to it"

The latter is coercive and negates consent. I'd go as far as to say it isn't an agreement. It's oppression.

I'd advise you to focus on this as an incompatibility and get any thought that this is something he owes you out of your mind.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm going to take the liberty of grouping your quotes together in bullet points. Maybe it helps you to read it that way. Maybe not.

I do care about him and do not want to hurt him (or hurt Minnie Mouse) but I do not want to hurt either. So I will be focusing on getting to a better place within myself so that I can try to make a healthy decision.

Could that be easier on you if you weren't living there? A better place within yourself AND a better place outside of yourself?

I understand that maybe he felt too confined within our agreements but he had agreed to them and I think it was on him to bring them up to re-negotiate instead of steam-rolling over them and then expecting me to be flexible and understanding.

Yup. He could have just said “No, I don't agree to that” from the beginning.

Or if things changed, he could have said “I want to make you aware. I feel different now. I will no long be keeping X agreement” or “I need to renegotiate X agreement.”

It's the people making the agreements that have to own it and live up to it. Or disband agreements. Not just make whatever agreements and turn around and break them. Or make them with no intention of keeping them and just do whatever. Like bad faith agreements.

• He has made some big mistakes and is failing to see the hurt and damage that is now done.
• I want a partner that is honest, even when it is hard.
• I want a partner who wants my input and appreciates my opinions and thoughts.
• I want marriage and want a partner who also wants that.

This is why you may no longer be compatible for DATING. He is not these things right now. You have different styles and ways of going.

• If there wasn't a lot of good things then it would be easy to walk away.
• I believe he is a good man.
• He has been my rock with major losses in my life, deaths of friends and family.
• He loves me unconditionally.
• Even when we discuss un-coupling he tells me he wants me to be okay and wants to still be there for me.

Then you have the potential to be good exes and friends. After a time of healing, could find a way to foster a friendship and still be there for each other AS FRIENDS.

There is nothing wrong with that.

• We are co-habitating, which likely won't change right now, but we are sleeping in separate rooms.
• He works from home and I work part time so I am out of the house about 15-20 hours a week for that.
• We have mainly been able to be cordial and even have some enjoyable times.
• Before Monday, we were still hugging, holding hands, quick pecks before bed, "I love you's" etc, but since Monday's difficult couples session that has all stopped. So now we are more in a roommate place.
• We are still eating some meals together, watching a little tv but there is definitely much more distance and tension.
• I think we do need some distance in order for me to clear my fog, but it is also difficult to feel alone in a home with someone you love.

Is it financial reasons that stop you from moving out?

Could staying for a time with a friend or family give you the needed distance to clear your head? So you guys can have separate spaces for a time and not just separate bedrooms?

I can see it being hard. You might be entering anticipatory grief if this is the start of the end of this relationship.

• If anyone has any recommendations on how to handle this time of limbo for me, that would be appreciated.
  
• I am trying to focus on self-care. Doing lots of reading, journaling, getting a massage etc.
  
• I have looked up Al-anon meetings, have been reading about co-dependency, more poly books, emotional intelligence books, Forgiving the Unforgivable.
  
• I am trying to be out of the house more to give him his own alone time as well. I am trying to be kind to my partner and myself.

Be leery of doing too much. I think counseling, al-anon, and codependency is enough. You don't also have to pile on poly and emotional intelligence books at this time. Do LESS not more. Prioritize REST. Get some sleep. Eat well. Exercise. Do you basic routines so even though some areas of your life (relationship, past trauma) is unsettled, other areas can be steady.

Maybe you guys want to talk about a trial separation for 4-6 weeks or so? Or several months or even a year? So you have some space to start doing your trauma work without the poly burdens on top. And he has some space to poly however without it involving you or exposing you to COVID 19 things because you are elsewhere.

Then when you are stronger in yourself? If you guys want to come back together or finish breaking up, you will be doing it from a place of CALM and less fog like you want.

I get wanting to take some time to decide well. One doesn't just end 8 years at the snap of a finger.

At the same time, sometimes it's better to make some firm decision about SOMETHING so you can start moving toward the healing place rather than linger in the hurting place. And sometimes one must physically leave first, so mind and heart can settle down. Rather than keeping body in the place of turmoil so things keep happening and mind/heart never quite get to settle/unfog.

Maybe you are not ready to decide about the relationship. But you could decide to live somewhere else for a bit to clear you head -- even a few weeks. So you can become more able to make other decisions. And start your trauma work without extra stuff.

Like take it in baby steps?

Galagirl

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Some very good advice and food for thought has been offered up here by other posters - I am going to go off on a bit of a tangent here and talk about the "marriage" idea.

As has been pointed out - marriage means different things to different people. What exactly does marriage mean/signify to you that makes it a "need"?

I have a section of my Journey blog here which delves into mine and MrS's relationship leading into our eventual marriage. I was "pro" (although I never ID'd it as a "need") and he was "anti". After 4 years of conversations (not arguments) we came to a mutual definition of marriage that we agreed upon. That definition rejected a LOT of the underlying assumptions of what marriage means to many people (including, but not limited to, "sexual exclusivity") - and boiled down to the fact that we were consciously choosing to pursue a life together "as a team", which was something that he was already committed to! (as was I) - the wedding was merely a public announcement of that intention.

So, my question to you - what is it about the institution of marriage that you feel you "need"? Governmental protections? Public acknowledgement? Tax breaks? Insurance coverage? Automatic child support for offspring? Religious acceptance?

What is it about the institution of marriage that causes him pause? An implicit concept of "ownership"? Financial entanglements? Perceived lack of freedom?

Just asking...

JaneQ

PS. Our next point of negotiation was children - I was a soft "yes" he was a less soft "no" - after a number of discussions on what being a "parent" means he also was a soft "yes" - turned out biology has it's own ideas...i.e. NO