Confused

[JP1977]

My wife SP and I opened our relationship over a year ago and started dating solo, in addition to swinging playtime. Overall this went okay, with some bumps in the road, as expected.

I started dating someone last May (let’s call her NC) and we see each other about twice per month. This relationship had grown from casual sex to having real feelings for each other. Over the last few months, SP has said, “You are poly.” She was aware I was developing deeper feelings for NC.

I have traditionally been conflict-avoidant, so some conversations are really hard. I believe SP has borderline personality and narcissistic personality disorder, so discussions with her can be like walking on eggshells and very heated, with her yelling at me for 80-90% of the time. I don’t have as many challenges communicating openly with NC.

Anyhow, last weekend we both had dates scheduled. SP cancelled hers due to overwhelming work obligations, and ended up with resentment that I had a great first weekend away with NC. SP seemed supportive and we were carving out time to talk about our new poly life. I had planned a trip for us this weekend and we started chatting yesterday morning. She had lots of questions for me and it started out with her allowing me to talk (rare), but it turned into a 9-hour rough conversation and fight.

I’d say it ended up being 80% her yelling, crying, being angry at me, with less time for me to even express myself. I really felt we were on the same page, but her visceral reaction to me expressing how I feel about NC and my desired needs was so jarring. At one point I asked her, "Do you feel you would be happier alone or without me?” She asked me if I felt like divorce was on the table and I said yes. She expressed extreme hurt and shock. She said she never thought it would be on the table.

I do value the good times in our marriage and want to “choose love and choose to co-create” life with her. But I also want to have a life where we are open and poly. We are seeing a marriage counselor tomorrow. She says I can tell them both then if I want a divorce or not and we can work through whatever the answer is.

I know I’ll be fine no matter what. I am scared and very anxious. That said, I am curious how things have gone for folks when opening up like this and if there is a difference in viewpoints and needs. I'm just not sure what to feel.

She was so upset she left the hotel early and we likely won’t speak to each other on the flight or the drive home.

 

[Bobbi]

Initials are hard to deal with and keep straight. I used Sally and Nancy in my head as I read (going by first initials).

I'm glad you are seeking therapy. I hope its a poly-friendly therapist. Most regular marriage counselors will focus on poly being the problem.

You have been open, dating separately for a year. Did you talk about what this dating would look like? Just hookups? Regular sexual partner without feelings? Romantic connection?

Have you ever discussed your issues with Sally being overbearing and not letting you speak, or hearing you when you do? Does she know you walk on eggshells because of her behavior?

Chances are, Sally feels shocked at divorce being on the table because of your feelings for Nancy, and has no clue its actually about your dynamic with her that's the problem.

You have to be able to have healthy communication in order for poly to work. Sally has to be able to communicate AND work through her feelings with you in a healthy way, as tons of stuff comes up transitioning into poly. To do this life in a healthy way creates a ton of growth and you have to be ready and willing to put in the work to get through it.

While thinking about what you want going forward, think about if you are willing to go through hard times for a while as you get couples counseling, and if Sally needs individual counseling to learn better self-regulation skills and to deal with other issues that are getting in the way of having a healthy relationship with you. And you need to learn to communicate through difficult topics and to initiate hard conversations.

You both need to have basic conflict-management skills, so discussions don't involve yelling.

I am curious how things have gone for folks when opening up like this and if there is a difference in viewpoints and needs

It seems like this situation is so new that neither of you have had time to process it and know how you really feel. Sally had a lot dumped on her with your feelings for Nancy, AND your marriage could end. On top of that, you are in NRE and everything is glowing with Nancy, so it's easy to see perfection in that relationship and imperfection in your marriage.

You both need time to process, get help communicating, and exploring poly a bit more. It sounds like Sally is open to poly, as she is dating too. With the info you have provided, I'm not sure if you are on very different pages. Maybe give it time and counseling to find that out for sure before talking divorce.

 

[JP1977]

Initials are hard to deal with and keep straight. I used Sally and Nancy in my head as I read (went by first initials).

I'm glad you are seeking therapy. I hope it's a poly friendly therapist. Most regular marriage counselors will focus on poly being the problem.

You have been open, dating separately for a year. Did you talk about what this dating would look like?

just hookups? Regular sexual partner without feelings? Romantic connection?

Have you ever discussed your issues with Sally being overbearing and not letting you speak or hearing you when you do? Does she know you walk on eggshells because of her behavior?

Chances are, Sally feels shocked at divorce being on the table because of your feelings for Nancy and has no clue its actually about your dynamic with her thats the problem.

You have to be able to have healthy communication in order for poly to work. Sally has to be able to communicate AND work through her feelings with you in a healthy way as tons of stuff comes up transitioning into poly. To do this life in a healthy way creates a ton of growth and you have to be ready and willing to put in the work to get through it.

While thinking about what you want going forward, think about if you are willing to go through hard times for a while as you get couples counseling and if Sally needs individual counseling to learn better self regulation skills and deal with other issues that are getting in the way of having a healthy relationship with you.

You both need to have basic conflict-management skills so discussions don't involve yelling.

It seems like this situation is so new that neither of you have had time to process it and know how you really feel. Sally had a lot dumped on her with feelings for Nancy AND your marriage could end. On top of that, you are in NRE and everything is glowing with Nancy, so it's easy to see perfection in that relationship and imperfection in your marriage. You both need time to process, get help communicating, and exploring poly a bit more. It sounds like Sally is open to poly, as she is dating too. With the info you have provided, I'm not sure you are on very different pages. Maybe give it time and counseling to find that out for sure, before talking divorce.

I appreciate your response. I agree I don’t feel we are that far apart, really. I recognize some of her hurt can be due to how I didn’t effectively communicate throughout the process. But I ask myself, would she have been any less angry a few months ago, when I was figuring out my feelings?

I’ve tried very gently to assert how challenging it is to communicate about difficult things with her. I do not want a divorce at all. I feel we can work through issues and I am willing to do so. I have to be at peace if she decides on a different option.

It’s really challenging for me to know that I have caused her pain. I understand my role in that, but I don’t think it’s entirely accurate for her to characterize things as an “emotional affair” either. It took a number of dates and NRE navigating to understand I really do have feelings, yet I wouldn’t want to abandon my marriage for the new relationship, either. The challenge and, hopefully, couple's therapy helps.

She feels disrespected because, in her eyes, I just jumped into poly without her consent. I don’t feel this was intentional, but something that kind of happened and then came to a head. Communication is hard for me and I know it’s the biggest thing I can work on in any relationship. The odd thing is it’s harder for me to communicate with my wife, as opposed to my girlfriend, or others in my life.

 

[Evie]

The odd thing is it’s harder for me to communicate with my wife as opposed to my girlfriend or others in my life.

This isn't odd when you take a moment to acknowledge that trying to be in a relationship with someone with unmanaged or ineffectively managed Cluster B personality disorders is subjecting yourself to domestic abuse. You do not have to martyr yourself to their condition/s. You know there's a different way of being, you can live it with your girlfriend, and most other people.

If you're going to stay with Sally, you have to learn to walk away from her escalating arguments. You do NOT need to engage in 9 hour fights, or even 1 hour fights. You do not need to live a life walking on eggshells. And be very careful that a functional relationship with Nancy (or anyone else) doesn't become your crutch to help you stay in the dysfunctional relationship with Sally.

 

[JP1977]

That’s great advice. We’ve been together 24 years so there is a lot of pain and hurt right now. I’m confused emotionally. I definitely want my marriage to work, but in a healthy way. I am far from perfect and I think my inability to communicate effectively with my wife is a problem. But part of that is due to my trauma and things I’ve been working through, and some of it is the challenge of dealing with such a personality. Ugh. I am feeling pretty down about everything right now.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi JP,

It sounds like Sally/SP is making things very difficult for you, she is not on the same page as you, she wants open playtime whereas you want poly with Nancy/NC. When you see the marriage counselor tomorrow, you should express concerns that you and SP are not compatible with each other, you want an open marriage with SP, while SP wants you to stop seeing NC. Then the ball is in the counselor's court. Hopefully the counselor will say something that will make sense to both of you, otherwise you can always look for a different counselor. SP is treating you unfairly, while you love SP and do not want to break up with her. SP is hurting and I understand that too.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well, it's going to be hard to do polyamory with someone who has either or both BPD and traits of narcissism. I assumed you've looked up traits of both online. I sure have. One of my children has BPD (diagnosed at 16). She was born different. She struggled greatly in her childhood and teens and through her mid-20s, but did get help, finally.

I have dated a narc too (undiagnosed, as they usually are, but he had all the symptoms) for 2.5 years.

I can't imagine living with a narc for 25 years!

So what happened was, you two decided to open your relationship to swinging, together and individually, but your individual playtime turned into a real relationship? I can't help but wonder if your "polyamory" is at least partly a way to move on to a more peaceful relationship. The arguments and walking on eggshells for decades must have been beyond exhausting.

We tried to do family therapy with my daughter, but she would not cooperate and would distract us from the topics at hand and get belligerent and loud and accusatory. I hope your couple's counseling goes better! Somehow my daughter turned her life around somewhat (drugs and self harm were among her struggles) in her late 20s, but we are still semi-estranged. I had to create firm boundaries.

No one should be arguing for 9 hours. Hard talks should be kept to one hour, max. And not every day. A couple times a week is plenty. And it definitely will help to get counseling. Even if the couple's counseling doesn't go great, you'd benefit from individual therapy for the trauma you have suffered.

Your new partner is probably more low key, and that must be a huge relief.

I find narcs to be very self-centered, unempathetic, and they can be so cruel. But people with BPD can actually be very sweet, caring, giving, loving, etc. They are just so volatile. My daughter's feelings are so on the surface. She gets so incredibly anxious. She used to self-medicate with substances and self-harming behaviours just because life hurt her, just to live it. I hope your wife sticks with counseling and finds a way to heal.

Whether you want to stick with her or not is your choice.

Maybe you're already read the book, Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

[JP1977]

Thank you so much for your kind words. You are right that she is really such a sweet, loving, and caring person. But there’s that element of always wondering if I am saying or doing the wrong thing will she snap or be upset. I have been seeing a therapist for three years and it’s been amazing to help me towards healing trauma and being a better version of myself. I do love my wife deeply and am quite sad at the prospect of our marriage ending. But I also see this major blow up as an opportunity for growth and hopefully counseling can be helpful. I am concerned the counselor could suggest closing the relationship which I think would be problematic and harmful. There are other people’s feelings involved and I don’t think things have to exist in a vacuum. The thing I struggle with is there is never winning an argument. I don’t ever feel I have to be right. She does and to a fault she will twist words or reality into something different. So it turns into trying to get a word in just to correct a misspeak. It is exhausting. Yesterday was absolutely soul sucking and soul crushing.

 

[Bobbi]

I understand my role in that, but I don’t think it’s entirely accurate for her to characterize things as an “emotional affair” either

Feelings are incredible things. If you are dating solo, having sexual dates, and didnt have a one date max per person rule then you both opened yourself up to catch feelings (even in the one date, i’ve seen it happen). Maybe you both were naive on this and you just happened to catch them first. You both should have at least understood this could happen.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

The problem with practicing polyamory in your situation is that it's really hard to tell if polyamory is what you actually want/need, or if you're just naturally trying to find a way to have a healthy, loving relationship while fulfilling the obligations you feel you have to your wife.

In my experience, people who are in unhealthy (particularly abusive) relationships gravitate towards monogamy once they are in a safe and stable situation. Take a woman with a horrible husband. She is dating polyamorously. She feels some love for another, leaves her husband once she finds a bit of self-worth, and then finds that she just wants monogamy with healthy partners, like most other people.

It can really be unfair to the people who matched with you because you are "poly." It could seem like a bait and switch, even though it wasn't intentional. It has happened enough to me, and people around me, for me to start to avoid those who don't have peaceful relationships with their established partners.

But honestly, I don't think you can really tell while you're living that situation. You can't see the wood for the trees. I don't think you can really know that it is just your unhappy relationship, rather than than a striving for polyamory.

There's an old poly adage that adding more people to a troubled situation isn't ethical. A lot of those old sayings are based in core truths.

 

[JP1977]

I know we both understood that feelings could arise. It wasn’t off the table at all. She was encouraging and supportive of my dates and also aware of the developing feelings. This makes her reaction a bit surprising.

I do understand the advice or sentiment on whether I’m actually poly or subconsciously seeking something stable. I don’t know that I can answer that question. I feel like my marriage has been great a majority of the time and we’ve both been happy. But it’s challenging at the moment to see anything through the hurt and anxiety.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

The reality is that unless you are a really really great Hinge, like robot level, the same feeling of anxiety you have around your wife will be shared by other partners.

There are a few people here who have had metamours with unmanaged BPD and its been pretty hellish for them. It was made worse when they wouldn't end the relationship and the Hinge seemed to want to drag all parties through excruciating agony until the bitter end. It seems kind of selfish on their part.

 

[Bobbi]

I do understand the advice or sentiment on whether I’m actually poly or subconsciously seeking something stable

Only time will tell with this one. I'm kind of in a similar place, or at least I was, when first entering poly. My then relationship was missing some important things and we both were unhappy, but still wanted to stay together. Becoming poly did save our relationship, in the sense that we improved our relationship abd our communication substantially, and how we live together. And we are still living together and best friends. Improving those things also helped us decide that being in an entwined romantic relationship was no longer desirable. I'm still not sure if I'm poly or was seeking something else, but I found and created something else within poly and I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life.

I'm happily practicing poly with 2, working on 3, partners, but have not fallen in love with more than one. I love them all, but I’m not “in love” with them all. I'm very happy with my relationships and they are all very important to me. But I wont know what it’s like to be in love with more than one until it happens. I'm poly because I want to have the type and shape of relationships that work for me and the partner involved without limitation, without feeling like what I'm doing might be inappropriate or violating some rule. I could easily be monogamous. I'd just rather not have the limitation. My life partner and I both agree that even if we become functionally monogamous, we will always be poly and able to have the relationships we choose.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry this is happening. At the same time, that's what it is with people with unmanaged Cluster B conditions. It's like riding an emotional rollercoaster with them.

Perhaps this helps you name what is happening to you:

Top 100 Traits & Behaviors — Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD

of Personality-Disordered Individuals

outofthefog.website

It's okay for you to have personal boundaries and choose NOT to engage, especially if she's going for a 9-hour sprint. If she doesn't know how to self-regulate, you engaging might be keeping the pot on the hot burner. Where if you walked away, she might be mad still, but at least she's OFF the burner and can slowly cool down, even while going on at you still. Maybe she'd be all dysregulated for 4 rather than 9 hours. At a minimum, YOU would get to cool off.

If you are her "BPD Favorite Person," that can add another layer to it.

If she does "loyalty tests," that's another layer of it.

It sounds like having another partner has made you realize it DOESN'T have to be like this.

You can read Stop Walking on Eggshells for free online at:

Stop walking on eggshells : taking your life back when someone you care about has borderline personality disorder : Mason, Paul T., M.S : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xiv, 260 p. ; 23 cm

archive.org

At one point I asked her, "Do you feel you would be happier alone or without me?” She asked me if I felt like divorce was on the table and I said yes. She expressed extreme hurt and shock. She said she never thought it would be on the table.

It sounds like she's taken for granted that you would put up with ANYTHING and would ALWAYS be here. It's not a realistic view of marriage. If you need to divorce to be free of this, it's okay for you to decide you are done after so many decades. You could try a trial separation for a year. Don't feel bad if divorce is what YOU need to be healthy in YOUR life. This was as long as you could do, and no more. You want something DIFFERENT for the second part of your life.

But there’s that element of always wondering if I am saying or doing the wrong thing will she snap or be upset. I have been seeing a therapist for three years and it’s been amazing to help me towards healing trauma and being a better version of myself. I do love my wife deeply and am quite sad at the prospect of our marriage ending. But I also see this major blow up as an opportunity for growth, and hopefully counseling can be helpful. I am concerned that the counselor might suggest closing the relationship, which I think would be problematic and harmful.

You can say, "No, I won't be closing it." You can also have a poly counselor for the poly parts, if you want. YMMV, but you could seek one here:

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

www.polyfriendly.org

Divorce doesn't mean you have to stop loving your wife, it just means you no longer want to live together, be the spouse, be the legal next of kin, etc.

The thing I struggle with is there is never winning an argument. I don’t ever feel I have to be right. She does, and to a fault she will twist words or reality into something different. So it turns into trying to get a word in just to correct a misspeak. It is exhausting. Yesterday was absolutely soul sucking and soul crushing.

I'm sorry it was a hard day. My father has BPD, among his many conditions. That "twisting words and always being right" thing is a BPD behavior.

Remember you don't have to JADE-- justify, argue, defend or explain your decisions. You don't HAVE to try to get a word in; you don't HAVE to correct a misspeak.

It's okay to think, "Here comes a new 'whoosh,' where nothing makes sense. And if all that is coming out, no LOGIC is gonna go IN. So I'm just not gonna play." And you don't engage. It's okay to say, "You seem upset. My being here seems to bother you. So I'll let you have the room."

And you go to the other room and read a book, or whatever. Expect her to follow you and test your boundary to see if she can get you to fold and engage, so she can continue whooshing things at you.

You don't have to be the emotional dumpster, where she dumps out all her things, and gets to feel better for unloading, with you ending up feeling slimed.

You can talk to your therapist about how to manage yourself when there's a BPD episode going on. Learn how to put your OWN oxygen mask on. Learn how to set and enforce personal boundaries with her when she's all dysregulated.

Read about coping strategies here:

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) — Out of the FOG | Personality Disorders, Narcissism, NPD, BPD

Introduction Borderline Personality Disorder is a serious condition which is estimated to affect between 1-3% of the general population. Yet, despite being so prevalent, BPD is not commonly known about or understood. People who live in a relationship with a person who suffers from borderline perso

outofthefog.website

Hang in there,
Galagirl

 

[dingedheart]

What was the driving circumstance/ who was the driving force behind opening the marriage after 24 yrs ? And what prep and boundaries were done to make that transition?

The plan was to keep the fire extinguishers close by and hope for the best ?