Dazed and Confused

Anarion

New member
Hi folks. I’m a man. About 16 months ago my wife (of 15 years) asked me if she could make out with a friend. That escalated a bit and she decided she was poly. I was OK with it, although I didn’t really feel like dating anyone else.

At some point, we moved outside my “window of tolerance” by accident and I had a little freak out and asked to shut things down. She agreed, but there was a lot of pain for both of us for about 6 months. We both felt sad and betrayed (her because I had never shown jealousy before). I worked on myself and we decided it was OK to open up again.

She has lots of dates lined up. Sometimes that scares me. I openly express my feelings about things being scary for me, but I tell her I’m not expecting anything. I’m just being very honest so we don’t accidentally end up somewhere I can’t tolerate again. This makes her feel sorry for me, and I feel bad for raining on her parade.

I felt like I had a bit of a lack of agency, so even though I’m not particularly driven to it, I started to build ambiguous romanticish relationships with other women outside of our marriage, just to not feel so sorry for myself. I’ve been upfront about this with my wife. I recently told my wife I was going to formally ask one of these women out on a date.

My wife really didn’t like that and she said that it made her feel like we should close down the relationship. She feels bad that she’s been causing me pain and discomfort by dating and she feels threatened by me having a relationship with another woman.

Now my wife wants to shut things down. I feel really guilty. I’m actually fine not dating and was just starting to do it as a coping mechanism. But I feel like my wife really wants to explore something in her and I’m letting my insecurities and coping strategies fuck it up for her. I just want to be her rock and let her explore these things.

I want to tell her, “I’m not going to date. I will be your base. So please don’t shut things down just because of my insecurities. I will work on processing my negative emotions better.”

I’m just afraid that I’m getting myself into a situation that will just lead to me feeling terrible later, if I’m not able to actually process my emotions better. I’m also worried I’m not taking up more space. But I just really want to be a supportive partner in this context. And I don’t want to feel like I’m inadvertently trapping her, a poly girl, in a mono relationship.
 
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It sounds like you two are putting the cart before the horse. Wife made out with someone 16 months ago, with your consent, and went on from there to other adult sexual romantic activities with others, with neither of you having done research or taken forethought into the ramifications on your egos, your marriage, your (lack of) security, etc.

Now you're both hot and cold. You aren't taking consideration for the others you are dating. You're just doing poly, and then quitting, and then doing it again, in a rollercoaster of emotions, and possibly nicking the hearts of others in the process.

I'd say if wife is enjoying her other relationships, and you've (somewhat) learned to cope, you should go ahead and have some dates, and allow wife the space to deal with her own issues with being "on the outside." You had to do it. She can too.

Being poly doesn't just mean dating multiple people. It means being okay with your partners all dating others too (should they want to). A balance can be found.

I recommend you take a look at our excellent reading resource list (which includes a poly podcast):


You might want to read Polysecure first, as that seems to be the issue both of you struggle with, a fear of loss.
 
@Magdlyn

I’ve read a bunch of articles and Polysecure and The Ethical Slut, and she’s read more stuff. I think the practice is so much harder and more complex than the theory :)

And I think we’ve been thoughtful about others. I haven’t asked anyone out while I figure my stuff out (just created mild tension with people who know my relationship is open). She’s been upfront with her dates about what she’s looking for. The only broken hearts are ours so far.
 
seems to be the issue both of you struggle with, a fear of loss.

I think that’s insightful @Magdlyn. We’re both afraid of being replaced. But we’re super committed to one another. I think the relationship is just such a foundational piece of our lives.

And I think for her the fact that I don’t feel that driven to poly makes me trying it out seem even more threatening somehow. She’s afraid I’ll just go mono with someone else.

I’m afraid she’ll expend her time and energy outside our couple and it’s somehow taking from me.
 
I’ve read a bunch of articles and Polysecure and The Ethical Slut, and she’s read more stuff. I think the practice is so much harder and more complex than the theory.
It very much is.
And I think we’ve been thoughtful about others. I haven’t asked anyone out while I figure my stuff out (just created mild tension with people who know my relationship is open). She’s been upfront with her dates about what she’s looking for. The only broken hearts are ours so far.
So the first person she dated was perfectly fine with her breaking up with him because of your insecurities?

> seems to be the issue both of you struggle with, a fear of loss.

I think that’s insightful @Magdlyn. We’re both afraid of being replaced. But we’re super committed to one another. The relationship is just such a foundational piece of our lives.

I think, for her, the fact that I don’t feel that driven to poly makes me trying it out seem even more threatening somehow. She’s afraid I’ll just go mono with someone else.
This is a very real possibility. It happened to me when my ex-husband and I first opened. We opened so that I could explore my bi side. But we were stupid and we unicorn-hunted. (My husband had the "what's in it for me?" mindset, and decided sex with other women would be his reward.) The woman we found as our "unicorn" said she was into both of us, but she lied. She didn't want me at all, just him. And he was ultimately monoamorous. He was willing and eager to keep having sex with me, but he fell out of love with me when he fell in love with her. He stopped kissing me, wouldn't hold my hand when walking, stopped calling me a pet name, could no longer say "I love you." Her opinions were golden and my opinions became unimportant and invalid. It was pretty devastating to me, especially since he'd always sworn to be mono (implying my known poly nature was sick, weird, evil). He swore he never looked at another woman until that point. Later, in therapy, he admitted he'd lied, to "set me a good example" of proper marital behavior. Grrr!
I’m afraid she’ll expend her time and energy outside our couple, somehow taking from me.
Yes, that is, of course, a polyamorous reality. Part of her time, energy and focus will go to others. Successfully poly people tend to be rather independent and actually like having more free time to follow their own pursuits, on their own, with friends/family and/or with other partners. They learn how to do this without resentment by being excellent at communication and by firming up their own egos. I am deeply in love with both my partners, but I enjoy their joy at being with their other partners, their other friends, their families, jobs, etc. And I actually welcome the free time this gives me!

If your wife is truly poly, and you seriously want to support this, can you consent to her being her own person? Or will it cause you to bend yourself into pretzels, and become depressed, even resentful? Can you develop a degree of compersion, with or without another partner of your own? If you feel monogamous, there is no reason to poly-date just to "balance the score" somehow.
 
I’ve read a bunch of articles and Polysecure and The Ethical Slut, and she’s read more stuff. I think the practice is so much harder and more complex than the theory.
Hi Amarion and welcome to the forum.

To me, it sounds like you wife made out with a guy and decides she poly and off we go and things get tough, you freak out and then close and then "we" start reading the books and articles. After some research and cooling off we start back up. Or was it make out with guy and we both do a deep dive and then open up?

I think we’ve been thoughtful about others. I haven’t asked anyone out while I figure my stuff out (just created mild tension with people who know my relationship is open).
I think asking someone on a date/being on a date will help you figure thing out. Let’s not get nutty. It’s a date. And it gives your wife a chance to see if she truly is as poly as she thinks she is, to see and FEEL the other side of the coin.

Is there a difference in your wife’s insecurity of you leaving her because you found a gf that wants to be mono, or her finding a guy she’s more compatible with, or can be happily poly with? Same/same, isn’t it?

There is no benefit to being mono in a poly/mono dynamic. There’s only loss or less. There might be lots of reasons someone will choose to do that, but there’s no added benefit.
 
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@Magdlyn @dingedheart. I think our experience has been more like Magdlyn’s entry into this world.

My wife is more driven to connect to other women. I thought this was going to be really easy for me because… I dunno… it’s not competition for me as a dick owner 😂, and I was never really jealous even about her flirting with dudes…

But it turned out that there was something really hurtful feeling about her putting energy and effort into someone else.

It was fine for a while, but then I let her bring another woman to our home for the weekend and they went to the spa with our car while I took care of the kids and had a terrible day. When I called a trusted friend to talk about my feelings she basically said I needed to shut things down and save my marriage. So I spiralled hard.

I asked them to stop being romantic with each other. And explained how I had felt. To your point @Magdlyn that must have been hurtful to my metamor. I wasn’t angry or hurtful, and the next day I gathered them both and told them I was sorry and had overreacted and that we could find a way to make this work if they wanted. My wife declined to continue the relationship anyway for her own reasons ( so she said), but what ensued was six months of me coming to terms with my newfound jealousy and insecurity.
 
There is no benefit to being mono in a poly/mono dynamic. There’s only loss or less.

The reason I’d do it is for her, so that I don’t feel like I’m forcing her to choose between me and the way she’s meant to be. That’s where things stand now, anyway.
 
Hello Anarion,

First of all, it is only fair that if your wife gets to date other people, you should have the right to date other people too. Your wife is taking a hypocritical stance, she is holding you to a double standard. I know she can't help what she feels, but surely she can see how her feelings are unfair to you. If you need to work on your feelings, she needs to work on her feelings too. At least that's how I see it.

I get that her feelings are more polyamorous, while your feelings are more monogamous, and that gives her some cause to think that you are unable to love both her and another woman. Honestly, the only way to find out is to try it, unless you already know your wife is justified in having this fear. Can you love two women? Maybe you are somewhat more monogamous than your wife, but not by that much, maybe you are 60% monogamous and 40% polyamorous. Only you can decide if that's the case.

I hope that the two of you can work things out.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Be greated, Anarion, king!
While there is no polyamory in Tolkien's work (unless, perhaps, Finwë's second marriage counts, but look what became of that kin...), the best among men knew how to balance pride and humbleness.

Don't be a knight in shining armor to a point, where you carry her responsibility on your shoulders. She wanted to open, it's upon her to make sure she can handle the relationship being open on both sides. If she can't, monogamy may be in her best interest.
You could accept a one-sided deal, but the perceived unfairness tends to add up, so please don't make it an indefinite one-sided deal.
 
@Tinwen if anyone would do polyamory you’d think it would be a bunch of immortal elves.


> Don't be a knight in shining armor to a point

I tend to dramatic self sacrifice for my own dark purposes. It makes one sort of indispensable if they’re holding the whole mess together. So yeah good thing to keep an eye on.
 
@Tinwen if anyone would do polyamory you’d think it would be a bunch of immortal elves.
Except, they're written to be not just monogamous, but hyper-monogamous, like, can only fall in love and marry once in a lifetime [only known exception cited above]. Oh well.
 
I am sorry this is hard on you. I don't know if this helps you any. This is what sticks out to me from your writing. I'll give you some ideas and suggestions. Don't feel like you have to respond to everything, or take everything on board-- just use what applies to your situation, if anything.

She has lots of dates lined up. Sometimes that scares me.

Is she going at it like "a kid in a candy store"? Maybe these will help you name what you are experiencing:

Avoid the Pitfalls

Other articles

We both felt sad and betrayed (her because I had never shown jealousy before). I worked on myself and we decided it was OK to open up again.

What's wrong with jealousy? It's a human emotion. Up until now, she wasn't doing behaviors that pushed your buttons in a way that caused jealousy to pop up as an emotion. Is it even jealousy, or are you just mad? I'm poly. But if I were still in active parenting mode, I'd be pretty pissed if DH were out every night leaving me with all his chores and all the kid care.

My wife really didn’t like that and she said that it made her feel like we should close down the relationship. She feels bad that she’s been causing me pain and discomfort by dating and she feels threatened by me having a relationship with another woman.

So what does she want? A double standard, where it is open for just HER to poly-date, but not for you?

Even if you don't want to date, the option could still be there for you. It could be open on both sides (so you'd get to decide to exercise the option or not), not like you wouldn't have the option at all. It could be either both are closed or both are open.

And now she feels threatened, so she wants to close up because of HER insecurities.

I want to tell her, “I’m not going to date. I will be your base. So please don’t shut things down just because of my insecurities. I will work on processing my negative emotions better.”

You do not expect her to do the same work for you, to be your rock and let you explore some stuff? You aren't running off into the sunset with a new person. It's just ONE date.

And I think, for her, the fact that I don’t feel that driven to poly makes me trying it out seem even more threatening somehow. She’s afraid I’ll just go mono with someone else.

I’m afraid she’ll expend her time and energy outside our couple and it’s somehow taking from me.

You sound like you both have poor emotional boundaries with each other, are too tangled up in each other. I don't know if there's enmeshment or codependency going on here.

If you two are going to keep trying to do poly, how about educating yourselves and working with a counselor?


In case it applies here:


Even if you both give up on the poly idea, you might consider CODA, so you can practice healthy, not fearful, monogamy.


There was something that felt really hurtful about her putting energy and effort into someone else.

It was fine for a while, but then I let her bring another woman to our home for the weekend, and they went to the spa in our car, while I took care of the kids and had a terrible day. When I called a trusted friend to talk about my feelings, she basically said I needed to shut things down and save my marriage. So I spiralled hard.

Do you two date each other any more? Did it bother you to see her putting dating energy into the new relationship, while the (you + her) dyad had been neglected on that front?

Do you take fair turns dealing with parenting jobs? Even if you do not date, are you getting time off from parenting duties, so you can rest, be home or out on your own, see friends, family, etc.? If she wants to go on a date, and you are already going to play tennis, and it's her turn to be in charge, it's on her to secure a babysitter, right? When it's your turn to be in charge, and she's off playing tennis, and you want to go to the movies with your friends, you set up a babysitter, right?

Is some of this poly hell stuff?


Even if you close up the relationship, if you two aren't having couple time, or splitting parenting duties fairly, those problems are still gonna be there.

Sometimes poly has a way of shining a light on things that were already there.

The reason I’d do it is for her, so that I don’t feel like I’m forcing her to choose between me and the way she’s meant to be. That’s where things stand now, anyway.

This is weird logic. Note that you are doing it for YOU, so YOU don't feel things. Really, you aren't forcing her to do anything. She can be how she wants to be.

  • You could break up with her. She can be how she wants to be. So can you.
  • She could break up with you. She can be how she wants to be. So can you.
  • You could agree to practice polyamory on both sides. She can be how she wants to be. So can you.
  • You could agree to mono on your side, poly on hers. She can be how she wants to be. So can you.
You seem to be framing this as "doing it for her" because it sounds "noble," or something.

Are you subsuming yourself to the relationship because you are scared of a break-up?

My wife declined to continue the relationship anyway for her own reasons (so she said), but what ensued was six months of me coming to terms with my newfound jealousy and insecurity.

If she's off on her NRE cloud, and you are witnessing her putting in energy into new things, while taking the (you + her) dyad for granted, of course you will feel envy that the other (her + new person) dyad is getting care and attention, while this one is going without. Of course you aren't going to feel safe and secure in your dyad with her if it's being neglected. How is anyone supposed to feel GOOD when being neglected or taken for granted?

You are newbies. You don't KNOW her as a hinge. Maybe she's mostly ok over time. You don't have benefit of past experience to think, "Oh, this is her NRE again. She always goes bananas for the first X months and then calms down after that."

You are seeing a whole new side of her. You don't KNOW if it's a passing thing and she will indeed calm down. She could turn out to be an NRE chaser, just one drama thing after another. So it is NORMAL to be unsure and a little weirded out. This is untested.

On her side, she also felt weird and threatened. She doesn't know YOU as hinge either. Maybe you both want to listen to this:


You both might also be grieving the old relationship. It's done. Some of the people might be the same, but if you've decided to change from monogamy to polyamory, the "old normal" is gone and the "new normal" isn't here yet. You may wish for the days when there were fewer people and less stuff to juggle. You might even be grieving losses you didn't know you were grieving.

I don’t want to feel like I’m inadvertently trapping her, a poly girl, in a mono relationship.

You could arrange separate banking for your personal spending, including separate dating lives, and set up a joint checking account for home bills and kids.

You could both talk to a lawyer and make postnuptial agreements, separation agreements, divorce agreements. If you don't have wills done yet, or guardians chosen for the kids if something happens you, the parents, you could do those too. Sort all the "emergency papers" for any and all major emergencies.

No one WANTS a separation or a divorce. But while people don't want their plane to crash or boat to sink, they still pack parachutes and life preservers anyway.

If you both know all the emergency plans are in place and taken care of, you can relax. You can know she's here because she wants to be. She can know you are here because you want to be. It's not like either one is trapped here.

Galagirl
 
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@GalaGirl. There’s a lot to chew on there! Thank you. My wife and I have a very close and romantic relationship. We go out any chance we get and we enjoy being together. Sometimes I wonder if it’s because we’re both kind of anxious in the relationship and so we cling to one another. But for whatever reason we have a lot of fun and passion together.

I think you’ve helped me distill my open question down. It’s essentially this: she wants to close the relationship because I scared her. Should I encourage her to continue because I know that’s what she wants and she’s just scared to lose me? Or is it OK for us to just clam back up into our comfy little cocoon for another 5 years (or whatever)?
 
@GalaGirl I think you might have hit the nail on the head a bit with we don’t know each other as hinges. I wonder if that’s the fear here, that neither of us knows ourselves or one another as a hinge, and we don’t know what happens. If we knew and we were OK with the results we’d probably both pull the trigger.

I mean I guess I know more about her. When she’s dating she comes back home to me very loving and passionate, but she also lacks a bit of empathy for my feelings because she’s excited.

All I know about myself: I’ve fallen in love with other women three times at school and work since we’ve been married. Like really off the charts in love, blood pumping in my skull and can’t think around this woman. But I never wanted to leave my wife or what we’ve built. And I had enough good sense not to throw away our relationship to pursue those feelings. So maybe I’d be good too…
 
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And I think the measure of good for both of us here is that we can date other people without losing one another. Those have been her stated goals at least, and I’m inclined to believe that’s her intention.

Maybe that’s just because we’re so codependent. I’m sure we are. But we also like each other.
 
@GalaGirl
She wants to close the relationship because I scared her. Should I encourage her to continue because I know that’s what she wants and she’s just scared to lose me? Or is it OK for us to just clam back up into our comfy little cocoon for another 5 years (or whatever)?
What you should do is have deep talks about that. She should know all you've written here and more, and you need to know at least as much about her feelings and motivations. You should explore all the options. Then you can make a decision, each for yourselves and a joint one.
 
Glad it helps you some.

She wants to close the relationship because I scared her.

Well, right now it is open. It doesn't close just because she votes to close. You'd have to agree and vote the same.

Should I encourage her to continue because I know that’s what she wants and she’s just scared to lose me? Or is it OK for us to just clam back up into our comfy little cocoon for another 5 years (or whatever)?

You two get to decide. She votes. You vote. See what aligns.

But I suggest you remember that other people you date are not toys. It's not kind for them to end up as "collateral damage" just because you two can't figure yourselves out, and keep opening/closing/opening/closing and just chucking others over. At a minimum, you could tell them you are newbies and aren't promising anything other than one date at a time, so they know the risks of getting involved with you.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head a bit with we don’t know each other as hinges.

You could talk that out more.

Maybe that’s just because we’re so codependent. And I’m sure we are. But we also like each other.

You two could work on that with a counselor and/or do CODA. Figure out what healthy interdependence looks like rather than codependence.

Galagirl
 
> At minimum you tell them you are newbies and aren't promising anything other than one date at a time.

Good advice. So far we haven’t deviated from that.
 
Keep in mind that polyamory isn't (just) about being comfortable dating, fucking and loving others, it's about being comfortable with your partners dating, fucking and loving others.

Poly needs to go both ways. If wife can date, then so can you. Yes, you can choose not to and change your mind later, but your wife has to do the hard work of watching you date, just as you have to do the hard work of watching her date.

Usually, an unsympathetic partner gets a dose of reality when their partner starts dating. It seems she wanted to close things up quick. Does she get that you actually were working on things with her dating, but she gave zero effort when you tried to go on one date? Is she willing to put in the work and sit in that discomfort? If not, then why should she expect you to do it? Why would you expect yourself to do it?

You know you are capable of loving more than one at a time, because you have. But being poly is about the agreement to practice that. You were in a monogamous relationship, so you didn't pursue those loves. That's monogamy. If you do agree to polyamory, then you both get to date others. That's the agreement. You need to do it because it's what you want, not to make her happy. That only ends in resentment.

Have the very deep and thoughtful conversations with her. Decide together that you both want or don't want this and are going to do the hard work of continuous learning as you go along. Get a poly-friendly therapist to guide you and help you through tough moments.
 
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