Hierarchical Polyamory

[Lady_Kitsune8]

I am very new to the idea of polyamory and have been doing my best to learn as much as possible.

My boyfriend (of 10.5 years) and I have discussed the idea of adding a third (female) to our dyad as a best friend, partner, and support (primarily being my meta but also allowed to interact with my bf when we're all together). I've had some intense jealousy and insecurity issues in the past and want to be sure those don't interfere with a great opportunity to include another partner into our relationship. I hold what my bf and I have built together dearly and sometimes have a difficult time wrapping my mind around there being someone else that could be better than me in many ways.

I'm curious to learn from others and gain any insights you may have!

For those in a hierarchical polyamory relationship or have been in one or more...

What have your experiences been as a Primary and/or secondary?

How has being a primary and/or secondary made you feel? What sort of boundaries have been set? What has worked? What challenges have you faced?

Did you experience any jealousy/insecurities? How did you conquer that?

 

[Magdlyn]

It might help with the advice you get if you mention whether you are the primary or the secondary. Or maybe you are primary to one person and a secondary of someone else... Or maybe you're mono and your partner considers you their primary but also has a secondary... etc...

Meanwhile, for general info, you can read this about the rights of each poly partner.

More Than Two | Relationship Bill of Rights

www.morethantwo.com

 

[Lady_Kitsune8]

It might help with the advice you get if you mention whether you are the primary or the secondary. Or maybe you are primary to one person and a secondary of someone else... Or maybe you're mono and your partner considers you their primary but also has a secondary... etc...

Meanwhile, for general info, you can read this about the rights of each poly partner.

More Than Two | Relationship Bill of Rights

www.morethantwo.com

Thank you so much for your reply and I've actually modified my post a bit to add some context as you suggested. ^.^ I appreciate your response and the resources you've linked!

 

[Magdlyn]

I am very new to the idea of polyamory and have been doing my best to learn as much as possible.

My boyfriend (of 10.5 years) and I have discussed the idea of adding a third (female) to our dyad as a best friend, partner, and support.

Do you have a certain woman in mind?
Please note that what you're proposing is called a triad. She would be a bisexual woman who would be expected to love and desire both of you, and have sex with both of you. The thing to think about is, what's in it for her?

What would her status be? Would you and bf be out as poly? Would she be introduced to family and friends as your shared gf, or just a friend? Would she be able to date and have sex with each of you individually? Are you looking to have this hypothetical person move in eventually?

(primarily being my meta but also allowed to interact with my bf when we're all together). I've had some intense jealousy and insecurity issues in the past and want to be sure those don't interfere with a great opportunity to include another partner into our relationship. I hold what my bf and I have built together dearly and sometimes have a difficult time wrapping my mind around there being someone else that could be better than me in many ways.

You'll find those considerations in the link, probably. Other things to consider are: what if you and she fall in love but she realizes she doesn't like your bf all that much? Would you be forced to break up with her, and break both of your hearts in the process? Or would it be OK if just you and she continued on, and she was "just friends" or even just acquaintances with bf after that?

See, what you're proposing is not "adding a third" to your existing relationship. You're breaking up your current relationship shape. You both agree you may love and have sex with another person. That comes with intense feelings (new relationship energy) if you do find someone one or both of you clicks with. If you don't have a person in mind, you'll be required to date around to find Ms Right. Sometimes this is a pain in the ass, hurtful, involves rejection, frustration, expense, arguments about whether she's the right one, etc., etc. This will put a strain on your existing relationship.

I'm not sure where or how your intense jealously and insecurity happened. It sounds like bf was perhaps cheating? And now you 2 have decided you (Lady Kitsune) will get a gf who may be expected to also sexually pleasure bf when he's around. Is he fine with that?

I'm curious to learn from others and gain any insights you may have!

For those in a hierarchical polyamory relationship or have been in one or more...

What have your experiences been as a Primary and/or secondary?

How has being a primary and/or secondary made you feel? What sort of boundaries have been set? What has worked? What challenges have you faced?

Did you experience any jealousy/insecurities? How did you conquer that?

Polyamory has a way of shining a light on tiny cracks in your existing relationship. Trying to share a gf will not guarantee there will be no jealousy or insecurity. In fact, it can increase it. Most experienced polyamorous couples generally date independently. This is actually a better, less complicated form of relating.

Here is more helpful info:

So, someone called you a Unicorn Hunter?

This article is a long, technical discussion of what being a "Unicorn Hunter" means, what's wrong with it, and how people in such a situation can try to avoid the negative stereotypes associated with such behavior and get the things that they are ultimately looking for. It is written in a…

davidlnoble.livejournal.com

 

[Evie]

I think you mean "primarily being my paramour" since metamour would be your partner's partner - and it sounds like you really don't want your partner to have a full relationship with this potential other person.

To be honest, this currently sounds like a recipe for a lot of angst and hurt. When a couple tries to add a third, there's a power imbalance between them and the new person which results in the failure of the whole thing because the rules are too rigid to allow for ordinary desires.

Are you aware that there are a lot of different relationship models that fall under polyamory? So often the media just shows triads (such as Professor Marston and The Wonder Women or You, Me, Her) that it might mislead you to think this is the only way. You could consider other options.

If you date someone else, she might not be interested in dating your boyfriend but could reluctantly agree for a while just to be able to spend time with you. It could be better if you don't expect her to have an intimate relationship with him in the first place but they could just be friendly enough that you can all casually hang out together. This is known as kitchen table polyamory.

If boyfriend is agreeing to this so long as he can get a bit of the extra marital action, too, then it would be a lot healthier if you date different people rather than the same one. I hear that you want just one more person who is mostly "yours" because you are afraid of being jealous, that if you don't have the control over just how much your boyfriend gets to interact with this potential woman then you'd feel like he might end up wanting something you don't (jealousy is typically fear of loss, be it of the whole relationship or of the sense of specialness within the relationship).

If this is your bottom line, I'd suggest that you don't start trying to meet people yet. There are a lot of great resources that someone on a computer rather that me on my phone can link (hint hint folks ) so you aren't starting from a position of needing to control the situation. Au contraire, polyamory requires quite a lot of letting go of control. Instead, you nurture each relationship rather than control each relationship. What this often looks like in practicality is good use of calendars and money so there is agreed time and money to be able to truly enjoy each relationship.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Lady_Kitsune8,

I am in a poly-fi MFM V, where both of the males are primary partners to the female. At first I didn't feel like a primary, but that grew on me over the years. I take it you are going to add a female where she will be your boyfriend's secondary partner, while you will be his primary partner. You need to look at the Hierarchical Poly pages. As for jealousy/insecurities, you can conquer that by using the following links:

• What If I Get Jealous?
• Unmasking the Green-Eyed Monster
• "First Aid" for Jealousy
• Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc.
• Understanding jealousy
• How do you achieve compersion?
• Jealousy and Insecurity
• The Theory of Jealousy Management
• The Practice of Jealousy Management
• Teal Swan: Jealousy and Envy
• Brené Brown: the Power of Vulnerability

Let me know if you have any questions.
Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Lady_Kitsune8]

Do you have a certain woman in mind?

We don't have a specific person in mind yet and will definitely need some advice on where to even start on finding someone who would be interested in working with us in the dynamic we are figuring out.

The thing to think about is, what's in it for her?

This is a great question and one that I want to ensure is considered. I would personally want her to feel like she has friends and partners who enjoy her hobbies and can be her 'family'. I want her to feel safe and that she can always rely on me and my bf to be emotionally supportive of her. There's so much that can be said here.

What would her status be? Would you and bf be out as poly? Would she be introduced to family and friends as your shared gf, or just a friend? Would she be able to date and have sex with each of you individually? Are you looking to have this hypothetical person move in eventually?

Yes! We would be out about the poly status and my bf has assured me that we will basically let everyone know that I love her and she's part of our family. Regarding the sex individually, my bf and I have agreed to only have intimate relations with her if we can both be there at the same time or her and I can be intimate together, just the two of us. He plays a big compersion role in this.

You'll find those considerations in the link, probably. Other things to consider are: what if you and she fall in love but she realizes she doesn't like your bf all that much? Would you be forced to break up with her, and break both of your hearts in the process? Or would it be OK if just you and she continued on, and she was "just friends" or even just acquaintances with bf after that?

I would ensure that we work things out to the point that it is okay if she and I continued on, even if she was not fond of my bf. However, I understand that's going to take a lot of communication and emotional intelligence to work things out.

See, what you're proposing is not "adding a third" to your existing relationship. You're breaking up your current relationship shape. You both agree you may love and have sex with another person. That comes with intense feelings (new relationship energy) if you do find someone one or both of you clicks with. If you don't have a person in mind, you'll be required to date around to find Ms Right. Sometimes this is a pain in the ass, hurtful, involves rejection, frustration, expense, arguments about whether she's the right one, etc., etc. This will put a strain on your existing relationship.

My bf and I are willing and ready to take on this challenging effort and understand that this could certainly be viewed at 'Unicorn Hunting'. My bf has basically left this process up to me since she will ultimately be my meta. He's always so scared of passing away early in life and he wants to ensure that I have someone else who takes care of me and I take care of her. Kind of his way of ensuring i will always be happy. Kinda morbidly sweet in ways.

I'm not sure where or how your intense jealously and insecurity happened. It sounds like bf was perhaps cheating? And now you 2 have decided you (Lady Kitsune) will get a gf who may be expected to also sexually pleasure bf when he's around. Is he fine with that?

My bf of 10.5 years has never cheated on me. All my previous relationships ended with them cheating on me so it really elicited some fears and insecurities in me. Fearing that others would be better than me in his eyes. He has always been so good to me and has such a positive moral compass.

Here is more helpful info:

Thank you so much again!! This has honestly been the most helpful conversation I've had so far. ^.^

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"We don't have a specific person in mind yet and will definitely need some advice on where to even start on finding someone who would be interested in working with us in the dynamic we are figuring out."

• https://fetlife.com/
• https://bare.dating/
• https://polyfinda.com/
• https://en.lovoo.com/#/
• https://www.okcupid.com/
• https://www.kasidie.com/
• http://www.facebook.com/
• http://www.beyondtwo.com/
• https://www.lavalife.com/
• https://polyamorydate.com/
• https://www.openminded.com/
• http://adultfriendfinder.com/
• http://www.polymatchmaker.com/
• http://www.polyamory.org/SF/groups.html
• https://www.meetup.com/topics/polyamory/
• http://polyevents.blogspot.com/#localgroups

"As for where to meet poly people, if by some chance you are interested in anything alternative like Renaissance fairs, goth culture, sci-fi conventions, indie music, bdsm, or any small fringe group, you will be more likely to meet people who have at least heard of poly and are accepting of it."
-- SpaceHippieGeek, Polyamorous Percolations

Even if it's not an "alternative" type group, if there's a club or something in your area that does something you're interested in, you can always join that group and it just gives you a way to get out there and meet people. If you meet someone on a platonic level and get to talking about poly, then they can decide how they feel about it without any "pressure to agree." Then if they do decide poly doesn't bother them too much, and some kind of romantic connection subsequently develops, you'll already have "had the poly conversation" with them.

Hopefully that helps,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

FWIW... here's my thoughts.

A primary-secondary model is easy to imagine. Like "Just like before, but with three!" But in reality it might be hard to do if you are trying to share the same GF and trying to triad. That's like 3 Vs all stacked up on top of each other.

It's better if you each have your own secondary partner -- date separate people. 2 V's.

Or if this is mostly for you? And your BF doesn't care to date right now? Just 1 V. You be the hinge with two partners.

Also, could talk about what happens if/when that primary-secondary model gets outgrown. Would you all be open to co-primary? Or not?

My boyfriend (of 10.5 years) and I have discussed the idea of adding a third (female) to our dyad as a best friend, partner, and support (primarily being my meta but also allowed to interact with my bf when we're all together).

You don't really "add a person." You and BF break up the previous 2 people relationship model on purpose. And then you start up a NEW 3 people relationship model with the new person.

A metamour or meta is the partner of your partner. Not sure you are using that right. It sounds like she's supposed to mainly be your GF. In which case she is your BF's meta. Not yours.

"You are allowed to interact/share sex with BF if we are all 3 in the same room." Is that being offered as an option that you and BF are open to? Or a REQUIREMENT? Not everyone wants to share group sex. Or feel like they have to service your BF just to gain access to dating you.

This is a great question and one that I want to ensure is considered. I would personally want her to feel like she has friends and partners who enjoy her hobbies and can be her 'family'. I want her to feel safe and that she can always rely on me and my bf to be emotionally supportive of her. There's so much that can be said here.

And would she be free to poly date other people? Or is the "family" expectation that she's only involved with you two?

Yes! We would be out about the poly status and my bf has assured me that we will basically let everyone know that I love her and she's part of our family. Regarding the sex individually, my bf and I have agreed to only have intimate relations with her if we can both be there at the same time or her and I can be intimate together, just the two of us. He plays a big compersion role in this.

Good that you plan to be out. Will you come out BEFORE you start poly dating to find this person?

What happens if it starts out as a triad, and turns out she's only into you? Or only into him? Or is into both, but not into sharing group sex where all 3 are present? Then what?

I would ensure that we work things out to the point that it is okay if she and I continued on, even if she was not fond of my bf. However, I understand that's going to take a lot of communication and emotional intelligence to work things out.

So... why isn't she just your GF first? Since primarily that's what you seek? Someone for you?

And if things pan out and there's attraction to BF and she's into it... you all can share group sex once in a while. Or she can date him too. But honestly? It's a lot easier if you DO NOT do these things. At least not right away.

My bf and I are willing and ready to take on this challenging effort and understand that this could certainly be viewed at 'Unicorn Hunting'. My bf has basically left this process up to me since she will ultimately be my meta. He's always so scared of passing away early in life and he wants to ensure that I have someone else who takes care of me and I take care of her. Kind of his way of ensuring i will always be happy. Kinda morbidly sweet in ways.

Here I think you mean your BF worries about dying, and wants you to have another GF so if he dies, you two could take care of each other. Is that true? If so, this new GF is HIS metamour. Not yours.

I don't think he can leave this process only up to you. In a 3 people thing? Each person is responsible for doing their own preparation work. Not like you "carrying" the whole thing and BF just coasting along.

Be careful you aren't coming across like a Queen Bee that everyone is supposed to obey because you are the boss of all. If that isn't a shared kink? That's gonna be a turn off to some potentials.

Because there's already some reasons for a potential to pause.... like you both being poly newbies wanting to start with some kind of triad (one of the hardest models.) And then the intense jealousy and worrying other people are better than you that you have to work on still. And then group sex.

Like... can't it slow down and be only 1 new thing at a time instead of a bunch of new things all piled up together?

Galagirl

 

[ref2018]

He's always so scared of passing away early in life and he wants to ensure that I have someone else who takes care of me and I take care of her. Kind of his way of ensuring i will always be happy. Kinda morbidly sweet in ways.

Does he have some sort of medical condition that would predispose him to a lower life expectancy? Because that's not a healthy projection. It may sound "morbidly sweet" right now, but what I'm reading is that he doesn't like the idea of you finding happiness elsewhere with someone he hasn't approved of. There is nothing about "his way of ensuring" your happiness that makes sense. You are responsible for your own happiness, and while it could very well include *his* happiness, he is also responsible for the same. There is a word coined to describe this dynamic and it's called "co-dependence"

I didn't see anyone link to the "Most Skipped Steps" article yet, but here you go: https://medium.com/@PolyamorySchool/the-most-skipped-step-when-opening-a-relationship-f1f67abbbd49

If you were a single woman, how would *you* feel if a couple approached you wanting you to be a "spare" in case one of them dies?

Please look at this from a place of detachment and adjust your perspective. <-- This is a very polite way of saying what I really want to say and can't because I have to set a good example as a moderator.

 

[Magdlyn]

Thank you for mentioning that, ref. I was going to come back to that. It is almost unheard of for, say, a husband to help choose a female life partner for his wife, to be there in case he dies young. Generally, when a spouse dies, the survivor goes on to grieve the loss for X amount of time, and when ready, starts to date again.

What if the hypothetical gf dies before the husband/bf does? Then they both will have someone to grieve.

Is bf much older than Lady Kitsune?

It's funny, but I am quite a bit older than my nesting partner, while her OSO is a few years younger than her. So if normal circumstances bear out, I will die before she or her OSO do. If they don't break up (or die young), he will be there to "take care of her" for quite a while after I am gone. Of course, she hates even thinking that I will ever die, and isn't making plans for when I do. It just worked out that way.

I would agree that this is pretty morbid and the backstory of this fear and pre-managed solution would bear looking at. Does he not want Lady Kitsune to date after his death and perhaps find a monogamous MAN to partner up with? Why is there a plan for a female life partner/lover only?

It's none of my business of course, but it is peculiar and makes me wonder.

 

[Lady_Kitsune8]

I just want to thank you all for taking the time to help me understand how these dynamics work and allowing me an opportunity to re-evaluate. There are clearly a ton of factors that I have not considered and I appreciate the expertise you've all provided.

I think given some time and communication, we will figure out what works best for us. In the meantime, I have my reading list of great resources and your sentiments to help along the way. This community is wonderful!

 

[MeeraReed]

Just to clarify the terminology you use:

"meta" or "metamour" means the partner of your partner; i.e., the other person your partner is dating. Someone who is NOT involved with you.

For example, my metamour is the cool lady who has a date with my longterm partner every week.

I think you just mean that the hypothetical new lady will be your partner/girlfriend.

She might be your boyfriend's metamour (if she's just dating you, not him too).

 

[JaneQSmythe]

He's always so scared of passing away early in life and he wants to ensure that I have someone else who takes care of me and I take care of her. Kind of his way of ensuring i will always be happy. Kinda morbidly sweet in ways.

You've gotten a lot of good information and discussion going in this thread.

I just wanted to add my two cents about this bit...

Some backstory (full story is in my Journey blog here): My early history with my ex-Dude had some not-so-ethical elements to it of which damaged MrS's trust in me and broke their best-friendship for a few months. After we had dealt with that, and were in the rebuilding and repairing stages, we were cautiously and slowly making our way forward but there were still plenty of hurdles and lingering questions that we were working on. Sometimes these things are worked out with slow and steady labor and communication. Sometimes, however, a person may have a moment of insight or a sudden shift in perspective that changes the landscape. In this case it was MrS's "Epiphany"...

It was during this time that MrS had an accident that could very well have been catastrophic and fatal. Nobody else was involved (Thank fuck!) and he walked away with a sprained thumb (and a totalled car). This put him in a philosophical frame of mind as he contemplated how very close we ALL are to death - whether we know it or not. At any time, an unforeseen set of circumstances could occur - even if a person is very careful and makes all of the "safest" decisions (which, I would venture to say, not all of us do ALL of the time - that way leads to paranoia, fear, and anxiety - so we pick and choose our own levels of risk/reward that we find acceptable).

Well, as he was contemplating the mortality of fragile humans (himself included) he realized that, if he HAD died, then he would absolutely want me to carry on with life and have other relationships and happiness and love. Because he loves me and thinking about me being unhappy and loveless for the rest of my life distresses him. So, as he is contemplating this, it occurs to him that, if he is hoping this hypothetical "Future-JaneQ" finds happiness and love, then WHAT IS THE PROBLEM with non-hypothetical "Current-JaneQ" having MORE happiness and MORE love RIGHT NOW?! Because I, too, am a fragile human being and could be taken from this life at any time and WHY NOT fill THIS life (which we both suspect is the only one we get) with as much joy, and love, and happiness as we can find?

(And so began "Happily Ever After"...until ex-Dude went nuclear 10 years later...which is a different story...)