Hierarchy, Parallels and Kitchen Tables, Oh My!

A

azurebonds

Active member
I am trying to establish my position on how I am going to navigate my wife and girlfriend living in close proximity.

As far as I can see it, I may need to be careful not to establish a hierarchy where my girlfriend feels secondary to my well established relationship. I also don’t want to get into, what to me seems to be, a toxic situation where rules are being established by any one couple over the other.

I would love a kitchen table arrangement where we’re all friends, but I am not going to force the issue. If it develops, great; if not, then it is what it is.

I am naturally a confider. As the hinge, I am assuming that all relationships need to have some level of privacy; as such, it’s probably a bad idea to discuss issues with one meta with another, assuming that issues inevitably arise in relationships.

I am primarily looking for how everyone handles the dynamics between their relationships and any advice for common issues that arise in a polycule.

All this is theoretical right now, but slowly moving towards practice. I just want to make sure that I have thought through things. I am reading Polysecure and the Ethical Slut, as well as occasional articles that I run across here and elsewhere.
 

Here are more resources for you.

As I recall, you've only been dating your gf for 2 months. Yet you're putting a LOT of thought into financially helping her out and I don't know what else. I'd say you have NRE and are a bit obsessed with her? That's normal. NRE happens. It needs to be controlled.

New partners are going to be "secondary," at least at first. We can talk about how a nesting partner doesn't need to be your primary, but the fact is, if you've been together for 5, 10 or more years, they are your primary, especially if you're coparents.

A newer partner is untried. You may be initially compatible, but you won't know if they're a keeper for some time. Check the Secondary's Bill of Rights in the thread I linked for more thoughts on this topic.
 
How do your wife and your gf each feel about kitchen table poly, hierarchy, and about each other?
 
Magdlyn said:

Here are more resources for you.

As I recall, you've only been dating your gf for 2 months. Yet you're putting a LOT of thought into financially helping her out and I don't know what else. I'd say you have NRE and are a bit obsessed with her? That's normal. NRE happens. It needs to be controlled.

New partners are going to be "secondary," at least at first. We can talk about how a nesting partner doesn't need to be your primary, but the fact is, if you've been together for 5, 10 or more years, they are your primary, especially if you're coparents.

A newer partner is untried. You may be initially compatible, but you won't know if they're a keeper for some time. Check the Secondary's Bill of Rights in the thread I linked for more thoughts on this topic.
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Thank you for the article. I had read it, but wasn’t considering her a secondary partner. I was seeing this as more egalitarian and less hierarchical. Still, you may be right about that being the default state when she enters. I sent the article to both of them.

It might seem strange, but I put this amount of thought into anyone or anything I am interested in. Sometimes it pays off. In this case, I am hoping for a smooth transition into a dual household.

Right now, I am planning the move, helping to inventory and reduce her possessions, remodeling and furnishing her new space, keeping a high level of communication to address any concerns that arise, guiding her through debt elimination, keeping her on track for her GED, planning my and her visits till the move, and attempting to do all this with minimal budget impact. I’m now looking into relationship dynamics. This is a lot, but it’s a normal level of thought/activity for me. They both know that I am “intense.” I also admittedly can be a bit of a whirlwind.

Keep in mind, this move isn’t till April of 2025.
 
MeeraReed said:
How do your wife and your gf each feel about kitchen table poly, hierarchy, and about each other?
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Honestly, the kitchen table poly is, at the present, an aspiration that is purely in my head. That being said, it is good to have goals.

The sense that I get from my wife is that she views the situation through a hierarchical lens (i.e. “I was here first.”); however, she tends to seek out best practices and is pretty reasonable, so I don’t expect tyranny or drama.

My girlfriend understands that she’s coming into an established relationship and says that she wants to avoid drama.

They haven’t met yet. I have been flying monthly to see my girlfriend. We actually met online by accident. I have planned a trip later this year for them to meet.
 
Please realize that hierarchy is a given. You cannot eliminate it as much as you'd like to. I did the same thing when starting out. I wanted egalitarian and for nobody to feel less than....having that mindset WILL make someone feel less than and it's usually the established partner.

Hierarchy is not bad. It's a normal state when you have history and enmeshment with a partner. What makes it bad is pretending it doesn't exist when it clearly does. To reduce the impact that hierarchy has on relationships, admit it's there and be fully open about any limitations that hierarchy imposes in other relationships.

One glaring aspect is that a new relationship is not entitled to the depth of time, love, trust and enmeshment. These things are built over time. Things may become egalitarian eventually, but cannot be that way from the start, unless you start seeing both people about the same time. Even then, you'll feel differently about each partner and may want more from one partner than you want from another. Each relationship is individual.

The more years you have in a relationship vs another means the longer it may be to get to that egalitarian state, if you truly want it to be egalitarian. Giving your new girlfriend of a couple months what your wife of years had to build over time is not egalitarian. It actually shows favor to your girlfriend.

I don't know your history, but maybe you didn't have the financial security when you met your wife that you have now. Maybe she didn't immediately get help, education, etc., from you that you want to give gf. Maybe you both struggled together to build what you have today. I'm not saying it's wrong to help out your gf, but keep in mind that doing so when your wife didn't get the same privilege a few months in IS actually treating them differently! You have to acknowledge this. You cannot remove hierarchy.

What you CAN do is not let other people make decisions regarding your relationships. This is what people hate and you should work to eliminate. Your wife can tell you what she thinks and feels. You can take that all into consideration. Same with your girlfriend. But in the end YOU need to make the decisions you want about your relationships and own them as your own. Many times, someone may be unhappy. It's important that they aren't mad at each other. They need to believe you are the decision maker and you are the one to be upset with. Never say "X wants/needs Y, so I have to". You don't have to do anything. Make your choice and own it.

Nobody wants to feel like someone outside of their relationship has power over their relationship. That is the point. That is what you want to avoid.

You see wife daily because you've spent many years together, have built a relationship and are married. That doesn't mean that new gf is entitled to that. You need to see new gf like you would any new friend and let it develop over time. Doing differently in the name of being egalitarian is actually very hurtful to established partners and far from egalitarian.
 
azurebonds said:
Honestly, the kitchen table poly is, at the present, an aspiration that is purely in my head. That being said, it is good to have goals.

The sense that I get from my wife is that she views the situation through a hierarchical lens (i.e. “I was here first.”); however, she tends to seek out best practices and is pretty reasonable, so I don’t expect tyranny or drama.

My girlfriend understands that she’s coming into an established relationship and says that she wants to avoid drama.

They haven’t met yet. I have been flying monthly to see my girlfriend. We actually met online by accident. I have planned a trip later this year for them to meet.
Click to expand...
You've been "flying monthly" to see gf? And you've been dating two months, so you've met her twice, three times? And yet you're helping her plan her financial future and making advances on her organizing and getting rid of stuff in preparation for her move into one of your houses about nine months from now? What's the rush?
 
Magdlyn said:
You've been "flying monthly" to see gf? And you've been dating two months, so you've met her twice, three times? And yet you're helping her plan her financial future and making advances on her organizing and getting rid of stuff in preparation for her move into one of your houses about nine months from now? What's the rush?
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The way that I see it is that we’ll be at a year in our relationship when she moves in, which isn’t entirely unreasonable of a time period. We also talk daily for 6 to 8 hours. Before you ask, it does not impact time with my wife. She’s working through her own issues that eat her time.

The move both improves her life dramatically and removes my need to pay for airfare each month. It’s a win-win from my perspective.

I have a tendency to think in years and decades, and thus speak about them as if they are soon. It’s a bad habit. That being said, I have traveled monthly so far and have my monthly flights booked until the move. So, in my mind, I am ‘traveling monthly.’

I have also moved 33 times. So, it’s old hat for me. I am just trying to make her cross country move simple. I have it down to a science at this point. Also, why move older furniture or unsentimental items? Moves should eliminate excess imo.

So, in summary, I am proceeding as if the move is occurring. If the relationship fails between now and then, I will pull the plug on it and focus on other things. I am just aiming for what I view as simplicity in the move.
 
azurebonds said:
We also talk daily for 6 to 8 hours.
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On your planet, how long are the days? Here on Earth, the days are 24 hours long. Earthlings usually sleep (lose consciousness) 1/3 to 1/4 of that amount of time, making the actual useful time of our days (known as "waking" time) between 16 and 18 hours. On Earth, that would leave you with only 8–12 hours a day to work, eat, bathe, shop, etc. Of course, not all species in the universe require sleep. Perhaps you are one of those species, and/or perhaps the days on your planet (i.e., the amount of time it takes for the planet to make one rotation on its axis) are longer, which would explain how you can find the time to talk to someone for that many hours a day and still get other things done. I just didn't want to assume you were from here because he who assumes makes an ass out of u and me (or so some Earthlings have been knows to say).
 
ref2018 said:
On your planet, how long are the days? Here on Earth, the days are 24 hours long. Earthlings usually sleep (lose consciousness) 1/3 to 1/4 of that amount of time, making the actual useful time of our days (known as "waking" time) between 16 and 18 hours. On Earth, that would leave you with only 8–12 hours a day to work, eat, bathe, shop, etc. Of course, not all species in the universe require sleep. Perhaps you are one of those species, and/or perhaps the days on your planet (i.e., the amount of time it takes for the planet to make one rotation on its axis) are longer, which would explain how you can find the time to talk to someone for that many hours a day and still get other things done. I just didn't want to assume you were from here because he who assumes makes an ass out of u and me (or so some Earthlings have been knows to say).
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1 Earth Cycle:
0:00 to 2:00 = Likely awake and might talk
2:00 to 8:00 = Sleep
8:00 to 17:00 = 9 hours to text on occasion + Earthling stuff, like work and nutritional intake
17:00 to 0:00 = 7 hours to chat, will likely take breaks as needed, eat, play with/read to offspring
7h +- 1h= 6h to 8h
 
Hi azurebonds,

You seem to have a good idea of how to conduct your relationships, I would say go ahead and do it that way if you can. For what it's worth, my V is pretty much kitchen table poly, when we have problems that pertain to all three of us, we all talk it out together. Otherwise our individual relationships are handled pretty much how a monogamous relationship would be handled. But I would say that communication is pretty important.

In addition to Polysecure and Ethical Slut, I would recommend Opening Up (by Tristan Taormino). There are also a lot of good podcasts at Multiamory (google multiamory and I'm sure it will come up).

Keep us posted and good luck.
Kevin T.
 
azurebonds, I was also curious about how long you and your wife had been poly. (Not sure if you discussed this on another thread).

Have you had other partners before while married? Serious? Casual? How did those relationships go?

Does your wife date other people also?
 
azurebonds said:
1 Earth Cycle:
0:00 to 2:00 = Likely awake and might talk
2:00 to 8:00 = Sleep
8:00 to 17:00 = 9 hours to text on occasion + Earthling stuff, like work and nutritional intake
17:00 to 0:00 = 7 hours to chat, will likely take breaks as needed, eat, play with/read to offspring
7h +- 1h= 6h to 8h
Click to expand...
Do you not go grocery shopping, get stuff at Home Depot, take the kids to sports, medical appointments, cultural events, see platonic friends, do home and car maintenance, cook, watch TV with the wife, date the wife, do anything with your wife? Being poly does not mean neglecting our nesting partner and children and doing nothing but talking to the New and Shiny person. (Young kids need more than just "playing and reading." They need baths, calmed fears, bedtime routines, excursions, kissed booboos, and if they're school age, they need help with homework, with getting ready in the morning, with unwinding after school, help with problems with friends, parent/teacher conferences, etc., etc.)

You're chatting with New and Shiny from 5 pm to 2 am every day. You're also chatting with her as much as possible during the time you're supposed to be working at your job. All the other life stuff is just interruptions in your obsession. Because of your current manic period, your NRE is out of control. You're in danger of losing your wife and kids, in my opinion.

I had an acquaintance once who was bipolar and untreated and she left her husband and 2 young sons to move to Canada to be with her new bf, leaving the husband and children devastated. You must know that people with bipolar disease often do these kinds of things...
 
It's awfully a lot and fast to be spending that on New Girlfriend.

What are Wife her own issues? Is she dealing with her own relationship with a partner, or something else? Is she getting the support she needs right now? Is it because of this rushed dynamic?

It's great you are thinking decades ahead as now, but are others going at your pace as well?
 
MeeraReed said:
azurebonds, I was also curious about how long you and your wife had been poly. (Not sure if you discussed this on another thread).

Have you had other partners before while married? Serious? Casual? How did those relationships go?

Does your wife date other people also?
Click to expand...
This Vee has been going on since the beginning of May. My girlfriend and I have been talking for some months before platonically.

I only have sex with people that I am in love with. My wife and girlfriend are the same. So, we haven’t really felt the need to explore beyond the current setup. Both of them say that I am enough for them. I have no compelling reason to change what I am doing right now either. So, by agreement, we are practicing polyfidelity. This is the first time any of us have explored beyond a single person.
 
LaminarFlow said:
It's awfully a lot and fast to be spending that on New Girlfriend.

What are Wife her own issues? Is she dealing with her own relationship with a partner, or something else? Is she getting the support she needs right now? Is it because of this rushed dynamic?

It's great you are thinking decades ahead as now, but are others going at your pace as well?
Click to expand...
No. I doubt many can keep up with my neuroses, but I tend to be a decent communicator, at least I have been told. So, they are getting the highlights.

Oddly, the whole series of events over the last year have pushed both of us to start working on ourselves more, including with mental health professionals. After churning on the US’ horrible mental health system, we finally found doctors that are helping us through our challenges, which I don’t really want to get into.

I will, however, say that she is earlier in her journey, which is unrelated to our recent poly endeavor.
 
Magdlyn said:
Do you not go grocery shopping, get stuff at Home Depot, take the kids to sports, medical appointments, cultural events, see platonic friends, do home and car maintenance, cook, watch TV with the wife, date the wife, do anything with your wife? Being poly does not mean neglecting our nesting partner and children and doing nothing but talking to the New and Shiny person. (Young kids need more than just "playing and reading." They need baths, calmed fears, bedtime routines, excursions, kissed booboos, and if they're school age, they need help with homework, with getting ready in the morning, with unwinding after school, help with problems with friends, parent/teacher conferences, etc., etc.)

You're chatting with New and Shiny from 5 pm to 2 am every day. You're also chatting with her as much as possible during the time you're supposed to be working at your job. All the other life stuff is just interruptions in your obsession. Because of your current manic period, your NRE is out of control. You're in danger of losing your wife and kids, in my opinion.

I had an acquaintance once who was bipolar and untreated and she left her husband and 2 young sons to move to Canada to be with her new bf, leaving the husband and children devastated. You must know that people with bipolar disease often do these kinds of things...
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I addressed my wife and treatment in another comment.

Any errands while I’m working are handled by my wife (paid sahm), except for doctor’s visits, which we both attend. The same is true with childcare.

I cook and feed my daughter meals, watch her after work and handle bedtime, which my wife has started helping with. I am the primary childcare on the weekends and often go on “adventures” with her. Also, most activities can be done while on a call or in voice chat. My daughter calls my girlfriend her “aunt” because she sometimes talks to her too with me.

There are different types of jobs in the world. I largely set my own hours. There are also many measures of productivity. By the ones that matter to my industry, I am extremely productive. Furthermore, there is natural downtime within and between activities, which includes breaks. There is plenty of time to chat without being a time thief, and ‘time spent’ is not a relevant measure for me.
 
azurebonds said:
No. I doubt many can keep up with my neuroses, but I tend to be a decent communicator, at least I have been told. So, they are getting the highlights.

Oddly, the whole series of events over the last year have pushed both of us to start working on ourselves more, including with mental health professionals. After churning on the US’ horrible mental health system, we finally found doctors that are helping us through our challenges, which I don’t really want to get into.

I will, however, say that she is earlier in her journey, which is unrelated to our recent poly endeavor.
Click to expand...

No problem. Fair enough.
So April 2025, Girl Friend moves in. Now you see her once a month for just a weekend? Or more? And when the time comes it will be equal split between households? Or 60/40? 70/30?
Wife still sees herself as "primary" at this point, right? I am just curious how you will navigate your time and structure when Girl Friend is closer.
 
LaminarFlow said:
No problem. Fair enough.
So April 2025, Girl Friend moves in. Now you see her once a month for just a weekend? Or more? And when the time comes it will be equal split between households? Or 60/40? 70/30?
Wife still sees herself as "primary" at this point, right? I am just curious how you will navigate your time and structure when Girl Friend is closer.
Click to expand...
At the present, I would see her throughout the day, when my wife takes her breaks. We have a very strict break schedule that revolves around my daughter’s childcare. It’s an artifact of the pandemic years.

Weekends are typically my daughter and I going somewhere for most of the day. My girlfriend has expressed interest in coming on these “adventures,” as my daughter calls them. We would likely hang out after or do so collectively.

Both agree that there needs to be a fair sleeping arrangement schedule, but I am not sure how that’s going to play out.

The dynamics of time and structure is core issue here. I’m thinking a schedule will work, but I was curious to see how others were doing it.
 
You are a married man with a child. If you do not have a hierarchy where your marriage and child come first, then you are a bad partner and father. This all seems manic and frenzied and like teen dreams to me. Keep your girlfriend as a long distance occasional visit (once or twice per year). Let her live and build her own life. You need to keep your head at home.
 
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