Hotwife to poly

I'm so sorry this happened to you, man. I have to admit I'm in a similar situation except I'm the other guy. My girlfriend was forced to break up with me after her husband learned we were in love and developed feelings after a "swinger/threesome" relationship started. He didn't want "feelings" to get involved but they did. We also had a secret WhatsApp conversation we shared (per her request) and since our break up, we've seen one another a few times. Not sexually, but to check in and such. It's been very hard for us both to break it off. They're back to swinging and she's working to commit to distance between us.

Again, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I truly am. I just wanted to give a different perspective as I understand how difficult it is to just "cut it off." I hope you guys don't judge me here. I just hope to deliver some understanding that "feelings" are somewhat out of our control; especially in a physical, sexual, emotional setting. Good luck and we're here to help.

- B.
 
I'm so sorry this happened to you, man. I have to admit I'm in a similar situation except I'm the other guy. My girlfriend was forced to break up with me after her husband learned we were in love and developed feelings after a "swinger/threesome" relationship started. He didn't want "feelings" to get involved but they did. We also had a secret WhatsApp conversation we shared (per her request) and since our break up, we've seen one another a few times. Not sexually, but to check in and such. It's been very hard for us both to break it off. They're back to swinging and she's working to commit to distance between us.

Again, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I truly am. I just wanted to give a different perspective as I understand how difficult it is to just "cut it off." I hope you guys don't judge me here. I just hope to deliver some understanding that "feelings" are somewhat out of our control; especially in a physical, sexual, emotional setting. Good luck and we're here to help.

- B.
I don't judge you.
NRE is so strong. Twelve years ago I broke my monogamous relationship because I could not let go of it (I fell in love before anything really happened, the potential was enough).
 
This all makes sense. We have closed the relationship for now while we make sense of everything and fix our boundaries. We started reading some books together too and have started with Polysecure. In her effort to make me happy I think she has agreed to lots of boundaries, such as communication and privacy things, but as she has gotten deeper with her partners and the emotional bonds she seems to regret or want more freedom now. She hasn’t came out and said this, but these are the areas we fight over and where she has been secretive. I think in a perfect world she would love her own individual dating life. I have freedom to see other women as well. I had a online girlfriend for a little bit but it doesn’t really interest me at all.
Good. Keep reading. If all you want to do is use your wife as a sex object for your own pleasure, while she wants to actually romantically love others, I think you are intrinsically incompatible. We can't change each other. We can only change ourselves.
 
I don't judge you.
NRE is so strong. Twelve years ago I broke my monogamous relationship because I could not let go of it (I fell in love before anything really happened, the potential was enough).
thank you for your feedback and lack of judgment. it's really difficult to be honest about this, BUT it's the truth!!!! I commend you for falling in love and realizing that was enough)...
 
I'm so sorry this happened to you, man. I have to admit I'm in a similar situation except I'm the other guy. My girlfriend was forced to break up with me after her husband learned we were in love and developed feelings after a "swinger/threesome" relationship started. He didn't want "feelings" to get involved but they did. We also had a secret WhatsApp conversation we shared (per her request) and since our break up, we've seen one another a few times. Not sexually, but to check in and such. It's been very hard for us both to break it off. They're back to swinging and she's working to commit to distance between us.

Again, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I truly am. I just wanted to give a different perspective as I understand how difficult it is to just "cut it off." I hope you guys don't judge me here. I just hope to deliver some understanding that "feelings" are somewhat out of our control; especially in a physical, sexual, emotional setting. Good luck and we're here to help.

- B.
I really appreciate that and know it’s not easy to cut it off. I’m trying to be understanding of that since I know my wife connects and is very easily attached to people. We’ve seen guys say they need to step away cuz the emotional load was too much, but I have never seen her pull off of anyone for the same. I’m sure her feelings have probably been more intense that she lets on. I really need open communication on what she needs before it reaches that point. She never tried to renegotiate the boundary she agreed to but just broke them. The realization that she may be poly or demi-sexual only came up in this last situation, so it’s hard to know if it was genuine or a way to make this one work.
 
Good. Keep reading. If all you want to do is use your wife as a sex object for your own pleasure, while she wants to actually romantically love others, I think you are intrinsically incompatible. We can't change each other. We can only change ourselves.
She’s not sure if she is actually poly she said she just wants a hotwife relationship w poly elements. She likes the idea of dealing w one person at a time and meeting weekly for sex. She said she doesn’t wanna fall in love but be a fwb. So she wants to operate physically like a hotwife still and emotionally have the freedom of poly. She said the sexual aspect appeals to her and she like to do taboo things
 
I'm thinking for some people it might be better to cut off communication cold turkey, but for some people, even if they don't hookup or do a "relationship" anymore, it may be helpful to just check in from time to time when they miss each other too badly. [Probably not a good idea with that "cheating kink" going on here, but still might give additional insight to both of yours situations.]

I was in love with a man in another city which I visited for work every now and then last spring (all consensual). It was not something to last, he was not in love and our time together was very limited, but he was always kind and caring in the evenings we got. Then my work visits stopped, so our dates stopped too - I've gone there once since and don't plan to anytime soon. But I still seriously missed him half a year later and sometimes I still do. It's great comfort that we can just have chat conversation once a month or so when there's something to catch up on!
 
She’s not sure if she is actually poly she said she just wants a hotwife relationship w poly elements. She likes the idea of dealing w one person at a time and meeting weekly for sex. She said she doesn’t wanna fall in love but be a fwb. So she wants to operate physically like a hotwife still and emotionally have the freedom of poly. She said the sexual aspect appeals to her and she like to do taboo things
Sounds kinda viable. Feelings may easily develop in a fwb situation, but with personal integrity and the understanding that "falling in love" is not fate, a signal to rush action (such as leaving the primary relationship), or a personal offence to the original partner, and that the hormons will go down in a few months, it's very possible to work through that.
To me, poly with a date roughly once a week and feelings allowed is still very legitimate poly, or at least something sitting on the intersection between just "open" and "poly". If the secondary relationship is not allowed to become co-primary over time, we would call the structure "hierarchical". Hierarchical poly can be deeply hurtful to the third person if they want more, but plenty of people live those relationships quite successfully, choosing compatible partners (such as those who also have committed primary relationships). In my opinion, it is the most sustainable ENM structure for anyone with many commitments.
There's no fool-proof tool to prevent one of the secondary relationships from deepening to the point where they want to let it grow further (as it has happened in our situation). But being deeply rooted in a happy marriage and "family first" values certainly helps - but this can't come from outside, it has to be an inner conviction of the "hinge".

Is your marriage otherwise secure? Do you think your wife could develop that kind of personal integrity? Can you imagine being happy for her feeling love and arousal instead of feeling betrayed?
 
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Sounds kinda viable. Feelings may easily develop in a fwb situation, but with personal integrity and the understanding that "falling in love" is not fate, a signal to rush action (such as leaving the primary relationship), or a personal offence to the original partner, and that the hormons will go down in a few months, it's very possible to work through that.
To me, poly with a date roughly once a week and feelings allowed is still very legitimate poly, or at least something sitting on the intersection between just "open" and "poly". If the secondary relationship is not allowed to become co-primary over time, we would call the structure "hierarchical". Hierarchical poly can be deeply hurtful to the third person if they want more, but plenty of people live those relationships quite successfully, choosing compatible partners (such as those who also have committed primary relationships). In my opinion, it is the most sustainable ENM structure for anyone with many commitments.
There's no fool-proof tool to prevent one of the secondary relationships from deepening to the point where they want to let it grow further (as it has happened in our situation). But being deeply rooted in a happy marriage and "family first" values certainly helps - but this can't come from outside, it has to be an inner conviction of the "hinge".

Is your marriage otherwise secure? Do you think your wife could develop that kind of personal integrity? Can you imagine being happy for her feeling love and arousal instead of feeling betrayed?
This is very insightful for sure. We have discussed that we are definitely hierarchical and our relationship is primary. We had initially discussed if anything had threatened our relationship, we were not going to continue this, but I know that’s easier said than done.

We have had big disagreements on what to do w guys that we are moving forward from. I can admit that is probably the most controlling part of what I do, as I try to dictate the process of moving on and cutting these guys off. I think she would like to keep these connections forever, if possible, and usually has this drawn-out process of moving on, or would like them to fight for her.

Before we came to this I believed our relationship was rock solid. This has exposed some issues in our communication and trust. I don’t feel she is honest about how she truly feels and she hides things to spare my feelings. There have been vital things held that aré important and can affect us. I honestly have a lot of compersion and get joy out of her arousal, the emotional part I can get there, but it’s hard to trust that any boundary will ever be followed. That’s the toughest part, to push more into poly, and engage into a lifestyle w more freedom after so much trust has been broken.
 
This is very insightful, for sure.
Thanks.
We have discussed that we are definitely hierarchical and our relationship is primary. We had initially discussed if anything had threatened our relationship, we were not going to continue this, but I know that’s easier said than done.
I remember that assumption from when I wanted poly in my monogamous relationship. Unfortunately, it turned out to be naive as soon as feelings entered play.
We have had big disagreements on what to do w guys that we are moving forward from. I can admit that is probably the most controlling part of what I do, as I try to dictate the process of moving on and cutting these guys off. I think she would like to keep these connections forever, if possible, and usually has this drawn-out process of moving on, or would like them to fight for her.
Yes. The problem with veto power is, it doesn't work - not in the big picture, let alone controlling the process. If anything - a new relationship - really does "threaten you", that's exactly the point when cutting it is probably impossible (or at least leads to two broken hearts and likely resentment) and demanding that she cuts it puts her into a forced position of choosing one or the other. Plus it's "your fault", the other guy isn't demanding that, so you are actually more likely to lose your marriage... Exercising a veto because the other relationship has become intense is just so painful.
The security you seek is not in having a veto and ending relationships. It's in keeping your own relationship high quality. It's in focusing on your and her needs, and the needs of the dyad, not compared to what other people get, but plainly stating what is present or missing. It's in accepting you can survive even the worst case scenario (like divorce). It's in trusting everyone means well and is doing the best they can. It is - in a twisted sense - in accepting the general uncertainty of life in general.
Before we came to this, I believed our relationship was rock solid. This has exposed some issues in our communication and trust. I don’t feel she is honest about how she truly feels and she hides things to spare my feelings. There have been vital things held that are important and can affect us. I honestly have a lot of compersion and get joy out of her arousal, the emotional part I can get there, but it’s hard to trust that any boundary will ever be followed. That’s the toughest part, to push more into poly and engage into a lifestyle w more freedom after so much trust has been broken.
Yes, that is bad starting grounds. Hopefully you're able to take the time to express and process what has been hidden and gain more trust in your ability as a couple work through everything that comes up before you reengage with ENM.
 
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I agree with the idea of working within the dyad instead of trying to veto. It is at this point is not really working. I think a more sensible way to deal with it is to communicate your needs: time, etc. so that you can feel more secure. Ask for some solid boundaries if she wants to continue the relationship and see if she can keep them (but not necessarily a veto).

However, I also understand your standpoint. When rules have been established and these change it can be pretty upsetting. It is also about a spouse's commitment. On this forum the talk is often about (preferably) non-hierarchical arrangements, honest and fully openly-negotiated ENMs, and ideal expanding poly-structures where everyone is happy and able to sort out their differences.

However, a marriage is marriage. Many people come from a very different place. There are commitments agreed to. In a marriage sometimes hard work and sacrifices need to be made. It is not always about your needs, or your feelings. There is a bit of a gulf between expectations in a marriage and the ideal poly world. Unicorn hunting disasters, opening up roller coasters and hotwifing/swinging leading to emotions endangering the marriage are all around in forums like this. Many people set out with monogamy and then they realize their polysexual/amorous needs. But shifting is not easy, because you were building something very different.

But still a marriage is a marriage and I think some people take it a bit lightly, like okay feelings are different and then we change the structure around as needed. Or, okay a unicorn/third party is here so the marriage now becomes non-hierarchical. Often these are a bit naive assumptions. When they read about successful poly relationships they sometimes do not see the past failures, hard lessons learnt, or just the fact that the poly structure did not start out with a married couple but was built from scratch.

I'm not saying it is impossible or should never be done in marriage, but there is a certain weight on the married couple. They did give promises to each other and sometimes they simply need sacrifices to keep the promises. Long monogamous marriages always have sacrifices, given up needs etc.

So, I do think that at this point there is a need to recommit to the marriage at least in observable actions (like keeping time boundaries or no chatting in front of you etc). You can let your wife explore things or love someone else but only within reasonable commitment boundaries. If she ignores your needs, treats you as if you did not exists and throws herself more and more into her other relationship gradually neglecting more and more boundaries, changing all the rules, then she is not fulfilling her part of the marriage and then hard decisions must be taken. I think in this situation a veto is something that is also sensible. Because if all your needs are neglected and then you just accept all her boundaries but get back nothing then that is a problem. You veto and see what happens. Some people recommit, some people cannot accept.

I think you need to tell her that if she has a boyfriend, then you also expect her to want to build the marriage with you together, accept some firm boundaries (time, commitments, holidays, etc.). I know this might be unfair to the third person, but the fact is that again, the third person is not going into a non-hierarchical polyamorous relationship but he is dealing with a married couple. This is why people dislike unicorn hunting, or unicorns struggle so much, by the way. It is often hierarchical, there is a special bond between husband and wife. And it is often naive to expect that suddenly it will be like with well-seasoned polyamorous people.

Later, if things work out well then, you can move into a more non-hierarchical arrangement, or maybe have another partner on your side, but at this point I think we have to deal with the marriage issue. And do things slowly.
 
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Thanks.

I remember that assumption from when I wanted poly in my monogamous relationship. Unfortunately, it turned out to be naive as soon as feelings entered play.

Yes. The problem with veto power is, it doesn't work - not in the big picture, let alone controlling the process. If anything - a new relationship - really does "threaten you", that's exactly the point when cutting it is probably impossible (or at least leads to two broken hearts and likely resentment) and demanding that she cuts it puts her into a forced position of choosing one or the other. Plus it's "your fault", the other guy isn't demanding that, so you are actually more likely to lose your marriage... Exercising a veto because the other relationship has become intense is just so painful.
The security you seek is not in having a veto and ending relationships. It's in keeping your own relationship high quality. It's in focusing on your and her needs, and the needs of the dyad, not compared to what other people get, but plainly stating what is present or missing. It's in accepting you can survive even the worst case scenario (like divorce). It's in trusting everyone means well and is doing the best they can. It is - in a twisted sense - in accepting the general uncertainty of life in general.

Yes, that is bad starting grounds. Hopefully you're able to take the time to express and process what has been hidden and gain more trust in your ability as a couple work through everything that comes up before you reengage with ENM.
I fully agree with you on the veto power, and it has become one of our sticking points. In the past we had a "blanket veto" in place where if any of us felt uncomfortable with the other person we had the ability to veto and walk away within reason. This has worked fine in swinger situations, but not for these type of dynamics. It started to get to the point that no matter how many things were pointed out, the veto came across as arbitrary, and from a jealous place. I also fully agree with it being "my fault" as I feel that is usually the direction things head when I start to speak my opinions about boundaries being crossed. I usually get met with a lot of "dont worry, its gonna be fine" and business as usual continues and I feel that my feelings are never respected or she never ensures to stand firm on any boundaries, which does not make me feel secure in our relationship. we have moved forward to more clear boundaries in order for that situation to happen, but in all honesty I would just like to feel valued and respected and not like I am being disregarded. We have never really got through NRE though in these situations because things blow up or the guy backs away being he says the emotional load is too much or cites some attachment.
 
Hi. It's very common to feel demoted, displaced and intruded upon when your partner's feelings for a new person seem to take priority over everything else, including you and your feelings, and your long-term relationship, and any attempt at thinking with some degree of rationality on the part of your partner. This is gone into in this article in helpful detail:

 
@enigmastag Do you think by any chance your wife would be also interested to post on the forum, would it be even helpful for her to read this discussion? Or do you need this place to be more of a sanctuary for yourself?
You can also share some other poly resources with each other. People do read books together. She's also new and it's not ideal if you learn a bunch and she doesn't.
 
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Hi. It's very common to feel demoted, displaced and intruded upon when your partner's feelings for a new person seem to take priority over everything else, including you and your feelings, and your long-term relationship, and any attempt at thinking with some degree of rationality on the part of your partner. This is gone into in this article in helpful detail:

I enjoyed this article a lot. Me and my wife read it together and we saw a lot in common with situations that we have had. Especially the demotion part and not acknowldging something was lost. I think knowing that she is recognizing how things are changing for us is a really big deal, instead of brushing it off.

@Tinwen I definitely want to share as much with her as possible and want to figure this out. I definitely would not gatekeep this forum, but she has been pretty resistant to poly resources, as she states she may be poly in some way but is very resistant to having serious feelings or love for another person, though I have asked her if she could love more than one person. We are actually reading books together. We are partway through Polysecure and plan to read The Ethical Slut. She recently got some ebooks of her own but they are not lifestyle related but more related to emotional attachment and twin flames reconnecting.
 
I enjoyed this article a lot. Me and my wife read it together and we saw a lot in common with situations that we have had. Especially the demotion part and not acknowledging something was lost. I think knowing that she is recognizing how things are changing for us is a really big deal, instead of brushing it off.
(y)
We are actually reading books together. We are partway through Polysecure and plan to read The Ethical Slut. She recently got some ebooks of her own but they are not lifestyle related but more related to emotional attachment and twin flames reconnecting.
Rather than The Ethical Slut, I might recommend Opening Up. Of course, you can read both, but more people find Opening Up helpful, as it gives a better overview of ENM. Ethical Slut was the first book on ENM, and better ones have come along.
 
I enjoyed this article a lot. Me and my wife read it together and we saw a lot in common with situations that we have had. Especially the demotion part and not acknowldging something was lost. I think knowing that she is recognizing how things are changing for us is a really big deal, instead of brushing it off.

@Tinwen I definitely want to share as much with her as possible and want to figure this out. I definitely would not gatekeep this forum, but she has been pretty resistant to poly resources, as she states she may be poly in some way but is very resistant to having serious feelings or love for another person, though I have asked her if she could love more than one person. We are actually reading books together. We are partway through Polysecure and plan to read The Ethical Slut. She recently got some ebooks of her own but they are not lifestyle related but more related to emotional attachment and twin flames reconnecting.
I think you're doing great.
 
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