How do I even start to explain??

Magdlyn said:
... Personally I was asking questions as young as age 11, since my mother was a secret atheist, though she took us kids to church to please her mother. Mom told me to question authority. I remember in Wed classes, getting ready for confirmation, I used to question the (conservative) pastor who was teaching us, showing him all the holes and contradictions in the Bible. I used to make him so mad! hehe! He hated me.
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@Mags: vivid recollection of my 6th grade Sunday School teacher...we got into a discussion:

Me: So the old testament god and the new testament god are the same god?
Him: Yes
Me: So the way it looks to me? The old testament has all these rules and if you follow these rules you are good and go to heaven [aside - I didn't know, then, that for the Jews "heaven" wasn't an issue]. Then god decides to send his Jesus-son and now all the rules are thrown out and you just have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven. So, how is that fair to all the Jews that have been following the rules all along and now they don't buy this Jesus rule-changing scheme? What, they just have to "burn in hell forever" because they didn't get the memo?
Him: Errm...well...umm. When you are older...you will understand.
Me: So you can't answer my question so I can understand now? Why should I listen to you then?
(I, obviously, am paraphrasing a bit! :p)

So, said SS teacher goes to my dad and tells him that he is worried for my immortal soul because I am questioning his teachings.
Dad: Well, did you answer her questions?
Him: Errm...well...umm.
Dad: What? She is to supposed to just blindly accept your authority?!
Him: >silence<

JaneQ

PS. My dad is one of my heroes for many reasons, this is one of them.
PPS. My favorite verse to question "literal interpretation of the Bible" christians on: 2 Kings 2:23-25
 
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Thou shalt not make fun of Elisha's bald head! :rolleyes:
 
JaneQSmythe said:
So, said SS teacher goes to my dad and tells him that he is worried for my immortal soul because I am questioning his teachings.
Dad: Well, did you answer her questions?
Him: Errm...well...umm.
Dad: What? She is to supposed to just blindly accept your authority?!
Him: >silence<

JaneQ

PS. My dad is one of my heroes for many reasons, this is one of them.
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I love this.

Unfortunately, much of our western culture hold authority in high esteem. Then children are taught to respect those in authority.

Your Dad is correct here, we should not always trust , or even be obliged to respect, those in authority. They seem to care less what effect they have on our lives anyway.

Once a child, or even an adult has this unquestioned respect for authority , , then they are perfectly primed for church to abuse their position and take full advantage of it.
 
JaneQSmythe said:
@Mags: vivid recollection of my 6th grade Sunday School teacher...we got into a discussion:

Me: So the old testament god and the new testament god are the same god?
Him: Yes
Me: So the way it looks to me? The old testament has all these rules and if you follow these rules you are good and go to heaven [aside - I didn't know, then, that for the Jews "heaven" wasn't an issue]. Then god decides to send his Jesus-son and now all the rules are thrown out and you just have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven. So, how is that fair to all the Jews that have been following the rules all along and now they don't buy this Jesus rule-changing scheme? What, they just have to "burn in hell forever" because they didn't get the memo?
Him: Errm...well...umm. When you are older...you will understand.
Me: So you can't answer my question so I can understand now? Why should I listen to you then?
(I, obviously, am paraphrasing a bit! :p)

So, said SS teacher goes to my dad and tells him that he is worried for my immortal soul because I am questioning his teachings.
Dad: Well, did you answer her questions?
Him: Errm...well...umm.
Dad: What? She is to supposed to just blindly accept your authority?!
Him: >silence<
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I had a similar experience in Wed night confirmation class. I do not remember the specific issue in the Bible I was questioning that day, but the pastor didn't like it, and couldn't answer me, so he just started yelling at me to believe it and be quiet. I felt like I needed to cry (I wasn't used to being yelled at, my parents were not authoritarian), so I got up to go to the bathroom to cry and get a hold of myself.

The pastor yelled (in front of the whole stunned class), "If you walk out of my class... I-I won't confirm you!"

I walked out anyway. Calmly and furiously went down the hall to his very office and called my dad to come pick me up. I was half suspecting a lightning bolt to come through the ceiling and smite me. But it didn't.

After class the pastor arrived at the door of our house. I ran upstairs. My parents calmly met with him and took my side. I guess he thought I needed a good chastisement with a rod of correction or something.

And he did confirm me! I got confirmed with my fingers crossed, since I didn't believe in the Virgin Birth. Then I was glad to get to stop going to church! Sheesh! The things we do to kids.

PS. My dad is one of my heroes for many reasons, this is one of them.
PPS. My favorite verse to question "literal interpretation of the Bible" christians on: 2 Kings 2:23-25
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And so Yahweh gets revenge on those who question the authority of his (mythical) prophet!
 
If we lose our respect for authority, will society crumble into a state of chaos?
 
kdt26417 said:
If we lose our respect for authority, will society crumble into a state of chaos?
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The authority has to earn its respect. If its rules no longer apply but yet it demands to hold on to them, then it is our duty to no longer respect that authority.
 
Isn't that a judgment call?
 
kdt26417 said:
Isn't that a judgment call?
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It only takes one person to question authority. Obviously the ability to get that authority to change its mind and its rules requires a large segment of the population to rebel. The only way for new ideas to gain traction is to start with that one person who is willing to question the authority and for it to grow. If more people I agree with that consensus then real change happens. We have seen it with gay marriage and we will see it with other ideas in the future.
 
kdt26417 said:
Isn't that a judgment call?
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Yes. If I am going to accept someone's authority, then, in my judgment, they have to have earned that. If they haven't - then I will act as I see fit, in my best judgment - both for myself and for those that accept MY authority.

For me, personally, we grant authority to those that we find worthy of it. If they are no longer "worthy" of authority in our regard, then they no longer have it. If I disagree with my superiors then I am (in my ethical opinion) obligated to pass my reservations on to those who respect my authority in these matters. "My boss/your boss/the government/your insurance company/the lawyer says "xyz" - I disagree for "pqs" reasons - your call."

Sometimes the results of "disrespecting" authority are a threat to take away your job/career/profession (such as happened to me last Thursday) or a threat to call the police (which happened to my dad...also last Thursday - apparently there was a air of "civil disobedience" in the aether that day! - we are not a people that lays down without a fight!).

So, I didn't get fired and dad didn't get arrested. Which brings me back to the idea of "privilege" that I have been thinking about for a while. Both dad and I belong to classes that have relative immunity to the punishments that our authority-figures would like to threaten us with. He is retired and has money. I have professional skills that would be welcome...well, anywhere (especially outside of this country). So both he and I feel that is our obligation to stand up to abusive authority figures whenever it comes up...because we CAN (and others may feel that they CAN'T).
 
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Interesting thoughts, JQS and graviton.
 
JaneQSmythe said:
So both he and I feel that is our obligation to stand up to abusive authority figures whenever it comes up...because we CAN (and others may feel that they CAN'T).
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Well said and something that resonates deeply with me. Giving a voice for those who cannot speak. Thank you for sharing that.
 
I'm always saying that the best thing anybody could teach a child is disobedience and an ability to question the authority of anybody who claims to have it. Good things also to encourage in adults.

Stanley Milgram's obedience to authority experiments are an excellent read on the reasons why.

IP
 
InfinitePossibility said:
I'm always saying that the best thing anybody could teach a child is disobedience and an ability to question the authority of anybody who claims to have it. Good things also to encourage in adults.

Stanley Milgram's obedience to authority experiments are an excellent read on the reasons why.

IP
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I have a real issue with authority and being told what to do, haha! However I have young children and I struggle with that balance of needing them to do as I ask them (I.e, you can't just trash our house with all your toys) and then telling them they are free to choose in life. You know?

I spent my whole life just doing what I was told, or what was expected of me. Look where that got me!
 
Journey, with my kids, I've taught them to think for themselves, make their own decisions (within reason), and question authority. They were raised to respect everyone--until someone disrespects them. Then all bets are off. There is no "respect your elders" or "you have to respect your parents no matter what." There's only "respect those who show you respect in return."

But they still have rules and boundaries at home...because that's respect. I've always tried to treat them respectfully, and I've taught them to respect the other members of the household, and the physical environment. Cleaning up after themselves wasn't "because I said so"; it was "it's disrespectful to me if I twist my ankle because you didn't pick up the toy", or "it's disrespectful to yourself if you can't find your shoes because you didn't put them where they belong."

Raising kids *with* respect raises respectful kids. And respectful kids will do the right thing because they've been taught the respect and values they need to *choose* the right thing to do. (Where "right thing" can be a highly subjective thing at times, but there tends to be a fairly common moral framework to choose within.)
 
Re (from reflections):
"Giving a voice for those who cannot speak."
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Amen!

Re (from InfinitePossibility):
"I'm always saying that the best thing anybody could teach a child is disobedience and an ability to question the authority of anybody who claims to have it."
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But how does parental authority figure into that?

Re (from Journeyofawakening):
"I have young children and I struggle with that balance of needing them to do as I ask them, and then telling them they are free to choose in life. You know?"
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Exactly.

Re (from KC43):
"But they still have rules and boundaries at home ... because that's respect."
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Hmmm ... sounds promising but would it work with all kids?

Re: Stanley Milgram ... see Wikipedia on his famous experiment.
 
If kids are taught to respect their families, their homes, and themselves, I think it would work. But it would require the parent(s) to show respect to the kids, not just demand that the kids respect the parents. Kids learn what they live. If they're treated with respect, they'll be respectful. Mostly. (When they hit their teens, that might be an issue for a while, but I think that's true with most teens regardless of what they're taught. Teen behavior is sometimes a function of hormones and changes in brain chemistry rather than of being intentionally respectful or disrespectful.)
 
Example about teaching kids respect by demonstrating it:

While I was still married to my ex, I substitute taught at the elementary school Alt and Country attended. (At the time, Alt was in 3rd grade and Country was in kindergarten, so that tells you how long ago it was.) The sixth graders in the school had a reputation as a whole of being very disrespectful, engaging in behavior that was inappropriate at best, and of having made three substitutes quit before the first hour of the day was over.

I got thrown into one of the sixth grade classes out of sheer desperation on the part of the administration. They couldn't find any other substitute who was willing to deal with the kids.

I had no problems with them. None at all.

I believe in praising the good, not just criticizing the bad, so at the end of that first day, I told them how well they'd done and how much I appreciated that they followed my directions, did what they were supposed to do, and made it a positive experience for all of us.

One of the grade's ringleaders stood up and said, "You respected us, so we respected you."

After that, I became the most regular substitute for that grade level. Because I showed respect to them from the moment I walked into their classroom, and because I walked in with the belief and expectation that they would respect me... that was what I got. Some of the teachers, along with the principal, asked me more than once how I managed it. They didn't seem to think it could be as simple as just "respect them and they'll respect you."

(It wasn't only that class, either... A couple years later I became one of the in-house subs at the town high school. Within a few months of my starting there, I would walk into a classroom and literally get a standing ovation from the kids, because they knew I would treat them with respect, and because I was the only sub who actually TAUGHT instead of acting like I was babysitting them.)
 
I agree, I also raised my kids that way, giving respect and expecting it in return to me, and to each other and all other people. I used this book as my guide, How To Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk. It lays out how to gently discipline using lots of examples and comic strip style pictures, not just theory.


http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids...o+kids+will+listen+&+listen+so+kids+will+talk
 
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