I can't believe I'm considering this

[CTF]

Suppose she finds a more responsible person to interact with in the future ... would you accept that?

She already has plenty of friends that she interacts with. I don't have a problem with any of them. And while I don't know all of them personally, they've never done what the guy in question has done. She's also never, in 17 years of marriage, disconnected reality, in favor of escapism with anyone besides him.

I don't know the precise number of friends that she has... But we're not talking about someone who only had one, and I took him away. On any given day, she has, easily, 20 or 30 friends she can turn to. All I ask, is that there will never be any sex or romance, and that our home life & marriage come first.

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"But we're not talking about someone who only had one, and I took him away."

I see what you mean.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well, I'm not going to speak for him. As for me, I don't deny masturbating. I'm just extremely private about sexual activities. I don't deny noticing attractive women. However, my mind simply never went farther than that. I don't mentally undress or fuck everyone I encounter. I see no need to. And to tell you the truth, I don't even find fault in people who do. I am just not like that. It has nothing to do with setting a "good example", although, I do have to say that I was raised to believe that the thoughts that motivate our actions are every bit as important as whether or not we act on them.

Like a lot of kids, I was punished for cursing. But there was more. I was also punished for using similar words. I couldn't replace "shit" with "shoot", for example. Because I was taught that, no matter the words I use, the INTENT is still the same. By the same token, expressing a desire to hit someone who made me angry, was punished just as severely as if I actually did hit them. In our house, the phrase "it's the thought that counts", didn't just apply to showing gratitude for a gift you received.

I see. You were punished for your very thoughts and mild expletives. A counselor could help you process this trauma.

 

[GalaGirl]

I agree with you. Whatever she thinks it was, or whatever she wants to call it today?

I don't think he sounded like a "friend." He sounded like a bad influence. So I'm glad you have decided to just let it be done and not open that door with that Dude. Just let it all go. Keep letting her call it whatever -- small price to pay to be rid of him once and for all.

I hope you both continue to work with your counselors and are able to move it forward from this.

Hang in there.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

I really don't mean to be an a-hole, but you seem to come here, CTF, just to get people to agree with you that this "certain someone" is bad news, has cast some sort of evil spell on your home and all would be well if you could just extricate his "bad influence." Nobody can invade another person's world without an invitation. (This is why there's really no such thing as a "cowgirl.") Your wife was open to whatever this man had/has to offer and it's very likely that she couched her explanation of him to you in terms that she thought would be the path of least resistance with you. What you're reporting to us has been filtered through her and again through your perspective. It's not necessarily at all what really happened between them. You're blaming this "one friend" for popping in and wreaking havoc on your lives (over the Internet) which a person just cannot do unless there is a welcome mat of interest.

You and your wife seem to have an inordinate amount of baggage, and you seem to know this, which is good. Work on your baggage and let your wife work on hers. Don't take hers on and don't blame anyone else for what is happening in your marriage.

 

[CTF]

I see. You were punished for your very thoughts and mild expletives. A counselor could help you process this trauma.

I don't know if I'd call it "trauma", but either way, the point is that I grew up being taught that motivations & intentions are what we need to take into account just as much as actions.

 

[CTF]

I really don't mean to be an a-hole, but you seem to come here, CTF, just to get people to agree with you that this "certain someone" is bad news, has cast some sort of evil spell on your home and all would be well if you could just extricate his "bad influence." Nobody can invade another person's world without an invitation. (This is why there's really no such thing as a "cowgirl.") Your wife was open to whatever this man had/has to offer and it's very likely that she couched her explanation of him to you in terms that she thought would be the path of least resistance with you. What you're reporting to us has been filtered through her and again through your perspective. It's not necessarily at all what really happened between them. You're blaming this "one friend" for popping in and wreaking havoc on your lives (over the Internet) which a person just cannot do unless there is a welcome mat of interest.

You and your wife seem to have an inordinate amount of baggage, and you seem to know this, which is good. Work on your baggage and let your wife work on hers. Don't take hers on and don't blame anyone else for what is happening in your marriage.

Look, I haven't used the term "certain someone" in a while. Granted, I've used that here, and at home I refer to him as "the Jersey fellow"... I think, in part, because I don't see him as being someone who deserves respect from me, and also, I just can't bring myself to say his name without still having my heart skip a beat.

That being said, I'm not here to try & get anyone to agree that he is bad news. Yes, I believe him to be based on our experience, but if no one else agrees, it does nothing to impact my thoughts on him.

Sure, everything I tell you is filtered through. Hell, there are parts I probably don't even, or won't ever know. But isn't every post typed by every person on this site nothing more than our own interpretations of what we experience?

I am well aware that his influence on my wife could have only come by her invitation. There is no question about that. I'm not big into using terms like "cowgirl" & "metamor", so I don't really care what any of it is called. All I'm concerned with, is what happens. You're probably right, she probably did dilute the nature of their relationship in an effort to keep me at bay. There are probably at least a couple of reasons for that. One one hand, if she admits that there was something more than friends, then severing contact wouldn't seem such a dickish move on my part. But there's also a level of embarrassment & guilt on her end that would come to light. But I digress.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not alleviating my wife of her responsibility. And the fact that he is out of the picture, yet, we still have discussions about her abandoning me still come into play. I am still very upset with her about her role in this... But for the sake of moving forward, I have to take her illness into consideration. The fact, though, that he did have a part to play in this, is not something that can be ignored.

 

[kdt26417]

I guess I see it as partly his fault, partly her fault.

 

[GalaGirl]

But for the sake of moving forward, I have to take her illness into consideration. The fact, though, that he did have a part to play in this, is not something that can be ignored.

You don't have to ignore it. But since he is now out of the picture? And you have decided against being open to her resuming her friendship with him because he's on your "messy people" list?

For the sake of moving forward, put him and anything to do with him firmly aside. No longer applies. Not ignored or forgotten, but just no longer on the "front burner" of focus.

DO focus on her illness and whether or not you can deal in it.

I think at this point of the journey, your front burner focus thing could be whether or not you can still thrive in marriage partnered to your wife. Who is presently a (depression and other mental health issues) type patient person. Or if is is healthier for you to disband and not deal in those issues any more.

It is not her fault she has illnesses. But it is her responsibility to do her health management things.

I have patient relationships with some people in my life. They have stuff. So long as I know/see them

• working their management plan like attending counseling and taking meds?
• apologizing when they come "back" from any funks or head trips?
• cleaning up their messes rather than sweeping under the rug?

Then I am willing to forgive outbursts and mistakes in judgement because nobody is perfect and they are busy combatting these mental illnesses as best they can.

If they are NOT doing their management things, NOT taking their meds, NOT apologizing after outburst things, NOT cleaning up their messes? Then I don't want to be in active relationship with them. I stop participating, put some distance in there, and they know where to look me up if/when they get it together.

You don't have to draw the line in the same place I do. You are you. But you may want to work with your counselor on figuring out what YOUR new boundaries with you wife are going to be.

not just in how she behaves in her friendships
not just in how she attends to her fair share of the marriage things or household things
but in how she attends to her illness management things too. In fact, that one could be first!

So that you know YOU can be well here and this doesn't become a one sided thing where you get sucked dry. Because if she's not attending to her mental health things and as a result all the other agreement things fly out the window?

There's you left holding the bag. And you sound like you really don't want to deal in emotional abandonment again.

Galagirl

 

[IndieSolo]

CTF, I practice polyamory now but was a monogamist all my life before that. I am one of those people who sees polyamory as an approach to relationships, something one does, not something one is. Yes, some people feel naturally more inclined toward poly, but in my opinion there are many factors that would make that happen. I don't see people as "wired" or oriented one way or the other. Anyway, when I was married, my husband and I were definitely monogamists and I would never have considered anything open or poly for us.

Early on in the marriage, my husband used to have his hair cut by this woman he knew who worked out of her apartment. She would occasionally call him to see if he wanted an appointment, and I thought nothing of it because I trusted him. She knew that he was married. One day he told me that lately when he went there for a haircut, she would be wearing just a bathrobe, with her hair wet from taking a shower, and behaving seductively. He said he now realized she had a thing for him and he felt a bit uncomfortable about it.

I told him I did not like him going to her place for haircuts anymore. He was in another relationship before he met me and had been going to this haircutter for a couple years, but some women are more attracted to a man who is married rather than single, and from what he told me, it seemed to me that she upped her flirty game once he left the ex-girlfriend and married me. I did not forbid him to see her, but expressed how very unhappy and wary I was of this situation. He stopped going. His choice. She kept calling and calling him until I got on the phone one day and told her to stop. He never once expressed regret over that nor made me feel bad for not wanting him to go there. If he had, it would have been ugly between us. If I'd had a Messy People List back then, that haircutter would've been on it.

Now, another part to what I'm trying to say in my long-winded way, is when I had first met him, he was still in another relationship and lived with his girlfriend. I didn't know he was attached when I met him. I flirted with him and gave him my number because he definitely gave off a vibe of "available." After a few weeks of flirting back and forth, he asked me to have coffee with him and that was when he admitted that he was in a relationship but "had to" ask me out because I was so intriguing to him. I told him I was surprised because he did not give off an "unavailable vibe." Well, two weeks later he moved out of the girlfriend's apartment and we started dating, and were married five months later, but that's another story. My point is -- I can see both sides that some people are arguing here.

Yes, it is true that people do unconsciously invite certain types of attention, like my ex-husband did. There could be a number of underlying, unconscious reasons for such behavior. So, yes, of course your wife is responsible for her part in those interactions with the Jersey guy - for inviting and maintaining the kind of relationship they had. And yes, there are both honorable and dishonorable people who respond to those invitations. With my husband there was me, who told him that I didn't want to put him in a position of lying to the girlfriend he lived with and if he wanted to date me, he had to be single; and there was the haircutter who would have pounced on him despite the fact that he was married and no longer available.

So, in essence, I see nothing wrong with having the Jersey guy on your Messy People List even if it never would have been more than platonic - he's problematic, inconsiderate, and possibly toxic or dishonorable. I don't see it as a big fucking deal to say he's off limits if you and your wife are to find harmony in your marriage again. My ex had a buddy who annoyed the shit out of me, and I told him to go hangout with him somewhere else or when I wasn't around. I think we all have a right to protect and defend our personal space, even when in a partnership. Of course the partner has choices, too, and what it boils down to is what we can accept and live with.

However, I also agree that you would better serve your marriage and your own peace of mind if your focus shifted away from vilifying that man to healing the dynamics between you and your wife, and to supporting her in dealing with her mental health issues. Forget about that guy, forget about the idea of her re-establishing contact with him. I think you need to focus on the foundation of your relationship with her, and looking to see if staying together truly is in your best interest. If it is, there is a lot of rebuilding and reconnecting ahead,for both of you.

 

[CTF]

You don't have to ignore it. But since he is now out of the picture? And you have decided against being open to her resuming her friendship with him because he's on your "messy people" list?

For the sake of moving forward, put him and anything to do with him firmly aside. No longer applies. Not ignored or forgotten, but just no longer on the "front burner" of focus.

DO focus on her illness and whether or not you can deal in it.

I think at this point of the journey, your front burner focus thing could be whether or not you can still thrive in marriage partnered to your wife. Who is presently a (depression and other mental health issues) type patient person. Or if is is healthier for you to disband and not deal in those issues any more.

It is not her fault she has illnesses. But it is her responsibility to do her health management things.

I have patient relationships with some people in my life. They have stuff. So long as I know/see them

• working their management plan like attending counseling and taking meds?
• apologizing when they come "back" from any funks or head trips?
• cleaning up their messes rather than sweeping under the rug?

Then I am willing to forgive outbursts and mistakes in judgement because nobody is perfect and they are busy combatting these mental illnesses as best they can.

If they are NOT doing their management things, NOT taking their meds, NOT apologizing after outburst things, NOT cleaning up their messes? Then I don't want to be in active relationship with them. I stop participating, put some distance in there, and they know where to look me up if/when they get it together.

You don't have to draw the line in the same place I do. You are you. But you may want to work with your counselor on figuring out what YOUR new boundaries with you wife are going to be.

not just in how she behaves in her friendships
not just in how she attends to her fair share of the marriage things or household things
but in how she attends to her illness management things too. In fact, that one could be first!

So that you know YOU can be well here and this doesn't become a one sided thing where you get sucked dry. Because if she's not attending to her mental health things and as a result all the other agreement things fly out the window?

There's you left holding the bag. And you sound like you really don't want to deal in emotional abandonment again.

Galagirl

You're absolutely right. And for what it's worth, I actually had done (in my opinion) a halfway decent job of putting him behind me over the last several months. Our talks about the subject were rare at best for a good stretch of time. It wasn't until word of a mutual gaming friend passed away, where the discussion was opened back up when she said that she missed Jersey. Not sure where that conversation would go, I tried to say as little as possible in hopes that we could move onto another topic. My response to her "missing him", was simply, "I know you do, I understand. I don't know what more to say". The conversation nearly ended right there, but she kinda pressed the issue a little further by acknowledging spending too much time with him, but it's difficult for her now, because she can't talk to him at all, and she has these little moments where she might want to tell him something, or share something with him (typical boring stuff, nothing necessarily heartfelt), and is now wondering how he's holding up after their friend passed.

Again, I told her that I understand, but the way things happened, I cannot find a way to be comfortable with him. I told her that ever since he came into the picture, it seemed as though she was continually choosing his company over mine. And even when I would mention the time element, there was never any effort to change it, even though she would acknowledge it. Even as a platonic relationship, I got tired of being treated like I didn't matter, to either of them. And that my feelings on him go far beyond whether or not I think he was trying to get her into bed (so to speak). I also told her wbout how much it bothered me that she shared so many personal things about me to him. He knows about my past with rejection/abandonment issues, and she has given personal details about our sex life. While she didn't think anything of it, since often when they would all be part of the group, there would be rampant sexually oriented discussions ("guy talk" is what she called it), but seemed to have no consideration for my need to keep personal things private. And yes, I have told her previously that I don't like opening myself up to people I didn't know, and I didn't appreciate her share intimate details with her friends. So the whole thing was ruined for me. But briefly, I did contemplate opening up the discussion. Why? Because I wanted her to be happy. I don't like feeling like I have to control how she interacts with people in a general sense. But I'm pretty comfortable with not opening that back up. At least, not for a long time. Give it a couple of years or so, who knows? I might feel different. But it's too soon now.

Ok. Onto the mental health issues. And this is a big part of it for me. Knowing that she's as wonky as she is, is really my path to peace with this whole situation. It lessens the idea of deliberate deception.

She is doing a lot to work on herself. She's attending all of her appointments, and taking all of her meds. The one area where I think she could stand to improve, is on trying more to focusing on mentally healing, and not feeling like she needs to drown out every anxious moment with a pill. Her therapist has suggested meditating & yoga, cardiovascular exercise, and a change of diet in addition to the pills. I'm hoping she'll get there with at least some of that, but I can lead her to water all I want, the work is up to her. In the meantime, I'm trying a more passive approach to get the ball rolling. Whenever I head out to the gym, I invite her to come along, etc... But we'll see.

In some ways, having to treat my wife as a patient, rather than a partner is more difficult that the poly aspect. We're not arguing over whether or not to open up, we know where each other stands, and that decision has been made some time ago. The hard part is finding out where we go from here in order for both of us to be healthy.

 

[CTF]

CTF, I practice polyamory now but was a monogamist all my life before that. I am one of those people who sees polyamory as an approach to relationships, something one does, not something one is. Yes, some people feel naturally more inclined toward poly, but in my opinion there are many factors that would make that happen. I don't see people as "wired" or oriented one way or the other. Anyway, when I was married, my husband and I were definitely monogamists and I would never have considered anything open or poly for us.

Early on in the marriage, my husband used to have his hair cut by this woman he knew who worked out of her apartment. She would occasionally call him to see if he wanted an appointment, and I thought nothing of it because I trusted him. She knew that he was married. One day he told me that lately when he went there for a haircut, she would be wearing just a bathrobe, with her hair wet from taking a shower, and behaving seductively. He said he now realized she had a thing for him and he felt a bit uncomfortable about it.

I told him I did not like him going to her place for haircuts anymore. He was in another relationship before he met me and had been going to this haircutter for a couple years, but some women are more attracted to a man who is married rather than single, and from what he told me, it seemed to me that she upped her flirty game once he left the ex-girlfriend and married me. I did not forbid him to see her, but expressed how very unhappy and wary I was of this situation. He stopped going. His choice. She kept calling and calling him until I got on the phone one day and told her to stop. He never once expressed regret over that nor made me feel bad for not wanting him to go there. If he had, it would have been ugly between us. If I'd had a Messy People List back then, that haircutter would've been on it.

Now, another part to what I'm trying to say in my long-winded way, is when I had first met him, he was still in another relationship and lived with his girlfriend. I didn't know he was attached when I met him. I flirted with him and gave him my number because he definitely gave off a vibe of "available." After a few weeks of flirting back and forth, he asked me to have coffee with him and that was when he admitted that he was in a relationship but "had to" ask me out because I was so intriguing to him. I told him I was surprised because he did not give off an "unavailable vibe." Well, two weeks later he moved out of the girlfriend's apartment and we started dating, and were married five months later, but that's another story. My point is -- I can see both sides that some people are arguing here.

Yes, it is true that people do unconsciously invite certain types of attention, like my ex-husband did. There could be a number of underlying, unconscious reasons for such behavior. So, yes, of course your wife is responsible for her part in those interactions with the Jersey guy - for inviting and maintaining the kind of relationship they had. And yes, there are both honorable and dishonorable people who respond to those invitations. With my husband there was me, who told him that I didn't want to put him in a position of lying to the girlfriend he lived with and if he wanted to date me, he had to be single; and there was the haircutter who would have pounced on him despite the fact that he was married and no longer available.

So, in essence, I see nothing wrong with having the Jersey guy on your Messy People List even if it never would have been more than platonic - he's problematic, inconsiderate, and possibly toxic or dishonorable. I don't see it as a big fucking deal to say he's off limits if you and your wife are to find harmony in your marriage again. My ex had a buddy who annoyed the shit out of me, and I told him to go hangout with him somewhere else or when I wasn't around. I think we all have a right to protect and defend our personal space, even when in a partnership. Of course the partner has choices, too, and what it boils down to is what we can accept and live with.

However, I also agree that you would better serve your marriage and your own peace of mind if your focus shifted away from vilifying that man to healing the dynamics between you and your wife, and to supporting her in dealing with her mental health issues. Forget about that guy, forget about the idea of her re-establishing contact with him. I think you need to focus on the foundation of your relationship with her, and looking to see if staying together truly is in your best interest. If it is, there is a lot of rebuilding and reconnecting ahead,for both of you.

Thank you for sharing your story. I've heard before about married folks seeming more attractive to some people... I don't know, I guess in part, because they don't usually give off this air or desperation.

As for early on in your circumstance, of course you wouldn't be at fault if you didn't know he was already with someone. And if Jersey didn't know my wife was married, then he wouldn't be taking any of the blame as long as he was unaware. Unfortunately, he DID know. In fact, from a mutual friend that all 3 of us have, he's made a habit our of pursuing married women as virtual romantic interests (I've mentioned this long ago, so no need to get into the full story right now). He's never actually slept with any of them (to my knowledge), but starts out by being the "good friend", the shoulder to cry on, etc... Before you know it, he's confessing his love to them. I've never been sure as to what his end game was, but the day I found this out, was the day I gave my wife the ultimatum. I told her what I had heard. She told me that he had never shown any sign that he was interested in her in that way. Something I don't believe, but cannot prove. I told her that if he hasn't yet, then it was only a matter of time until he did, and that he wasn't worth waiting around to find out. I told her that, the last time I checked, this was my marriage too, and that neither one of us have the right to put each other in a position that makes the other feel uncomfortable, and that I will never be comfortable, as long as he has a presence.

In the wake of it, she had expressed to myself & others, her belief that I was making her choose between myself, and her friends. I told her she needed to quit pluralizing him. She new as well as I did, that we were only talking about one in particular, and for a very specific reason. She still did (and does) have plenty of friends.

I've told her repeatedly, that I'm not trying to prevent her from having friends that I might clash with personality-wise. But there's a big difference when someone is meddling in another person's marriage.

 

[GalaGirl]

You know what? I think you have said all that needs to be said about that Dude. You don't like him for a whole mess of reasons. You don't like that she blabbed private info about you to him without asking you first if you are willing for her to do that. It cannot be undone. But he's out of the picture, so best set firmly aside. He's a back burner thing for you at this point. At this point just hold the boundary. Don't repeat it all over again. Just hold the line.

Tell you patient wife what to DO. Not go on and on and on about what not to do. Move it forward. Especially if she's having a wonky brain day, she might be looking for leadership OUT of loopdeloo thinking.

If she says she misses him? Say "I see. I'm sorry." and let it end there. Simple acknowledgement and no more. "Want some tea?" Change the channel.

If she keeps bringing Dude up and going on about him and your temper is starting to rise? Reaffirm the boundary, then check out to attend to YOU first.

"I do not talk about Dude. I am sorry you miss him. If you have other feelings to process about Dude right now? You have to find someone else to do deep Dude talk with. That person is not me. Excuse me, I need a break."​

And then leave the room. Let her deal with her feelings herself. Otherwise she's triggering you. And you are allowing it.

I have a patient person in my life who has a Super Crap "Friend." I don't want to hear about them. I told my patient person so ages ago. I find Super selfish, annoying, and user-y. Nothing at all like a real friend.

If they tell me they attended Super's birthday, I say a mild "That's nice. Glad you had fun weekend" and let it go.

If they want to go on and on about it? "Super said this at the party, and Super did that at the party. Super wanted blue balloons but they were out and then Super had to ..."

I hold the line. I say things like

"STOP. Super is not my friend. YOU are my friend. I am not here to visit Super. I am here to visit YOU. I do not do deep detail talk about Super. So we can either change the subject or I just go home and visit you another time when Super isn't so heavy on your mind. How about some tea?"​

It probably took Patient Friend something like 3 years to understand that really, I mean it. I just do not like Super and I do not talk about Super. And when I put the brakes on I can watch their face struggling with their brain. The ritual of making tea helps them change tracks and figure out something ELSE to talk about.

Over years Super has done things that were mean to my patient friend, made fun of them, borrowed money and not repaid, they've had fights and all kinds of drama. I don't get what my patient friend gets out of it or what they see in Super. Me? I don't care to know. I don't want to hear about it.

If my patient friend keeps picking out Super Crap Friend, keeps interacting with them? Any drama Super Crap Friend does? It is all their problem. Go vent elsewhere about the latest hooha. Not to me.

If I let patient friend babble to me about Super? I'd be up to my ears in Super. My Patient Friend has no sense in that area, so it's on ME to hold the line if I want our interactions to be pleasant and not turn into the Super Crap Friend Show.

We have been not talking about Super Crap Friend for 30+ years. So it may take a while for a patient person to get it, but they eventually DO get it if you hold the line. If you keep changing the line around? They won't.

But I'm pretty comfortable with not opening that back up. At least, not for a long time. Give it a couple of years or so, who knows? I might feel different. But it's too soon now.

Just call the line done, and leave it be.

Even if you feel different later? Be ok feeling different and NOT changing the line any at all. Let it be DONE done.

I think you are at that place with your wife. Just tell her "Nope. I do not talk about Dude." And firmly set it aside. Leave the room. Hold the line.

In some ways, having to treat my wife as a patient, rather than a partner is more difficult that the poly aspect.

It IS hard. Because you no longer have a healthy functioning partner. You have a PATIENT partner.

There will be things you never get to talk about or express to your patient person because it is futile, goes over their heads, or doesn't really do anything to improve quality of life or daily living with a patient person. That's what counselors and support groups are for. To get to air that stuff out there.

And sometimes mental health patients push your buttons on purpose to see if you still will hold the line. You holding the line firm helps them feel safe. But it is irritating as heck to have them poking over and over. Healthy people don't do that. But... that's the thing. They are not healthy. They are mental health patients.

The hard part is finding out where we go from here in order for both of us to be healthy.

I hope you are able to determine that with your counselor. You are having to change your whole view of yourself, your wife and your marriage as you see her more clearly as "my PATIENT wife" and no longer "my wife."

Hang in there.
Galagirl

 

[CTF]

You know what? I think you have said all that needs to be said about that Dude. You don't like him for a whole mess of reasons. You don't like that she blabbed private info about you to him without asking you first if you are willing for her to do that. It cannot be undone. But he's out of the picture, so best set firmly aside. He's a back burner thing for you at this point. At this point just hold the boundary. Don't repeat it all over again. Just hold the line.

Tell you patient wife what to DO. Not go on and on and on about what not to do. Move it forward. Especially if she's having a wonky brain day, she might be looking for leadership OUT of loopdeloo thinking.

If she says she misses him? Say "I see. I'm sorry." and let it end there. Simple acknowledgement and no more. "Want some tea?" Change the channel.

If she keeps bringing Dude up and going on about him and your temper is starting to rise? Reaffirm the boundary, then check out to attend to YOU first.

"I do not talk about Dude. I am sorry you miss him. If you have other feelings to process about Dude right now? You have to find someone else to do deep Dude talk with. That person is not me. Excuse me, I need a break."​

And then leave the room. Let her deal with her feelings herself. Otherwise she's triggering you. And you are allowing it.

I have a patient person in my life who has a Super Crap "Friend." I don't want to hear about them. I told my patient person so ages ago. I find Super selfish, annoying, and user-y. Nothing at all like a real friend.

If they tell me they attended Super's birthday, I say a mild "That's nice. Glad you had fun weekend" and let it go.

If they want to go on and on about it? "Super said this at the party, and Super did that at the party. Super wanted blue balloons but they were out and then Super had to ..."

I hold the line. I say things like

"STOP. Super is not my friend. YOU are my friend. I am not here to visit Super. I am here to visit YOU. I do not do deep detail talk about Super. So we can either change the subject or I just go home and visit you another time when Super isn't so heavy on your mind. How about some tea?"​

It probably took Patient Friend something like 3 years to understand that really, I mean it. I just do not like Super and I do not talk about Super. And when I put the brakes on I can watch their face struggling with their brain. The ritual of making tea helps them change tracks and figure out something ELSE to talk about.

Over years Super has done things that were mean to my patient friend, made fun of them, borrowed money and not repaid, they've had fights and all kinds of drama. I don't get what my patient friend gets out of it or what they see in Super. Me? I don't care to know. I don't want to hear about it.

If my patient friend keeps picking out Super Crap Friend, keeps interacting with them? Any drama Super Crap Friend does? It is all their problem. Go vent elsewhere about the latest hooha. Not to me.

If I let patient friend babble to me about Super? I'd be up to my ears in Super. My Patient Friend has no sense in that area, so it's on ME to hold the line if I want our interactions to be pleasant and not turn into the Super Crap Friend Show.

We have been not talking about Super Crap Friend for 30+ years. So it may take a while for a patient person to get it, but they eventually DO get it if you hold the line. If you keep changing the line around? They won't.



Just call the line done, and leave it be.

Even if you feel different later? Be ok feeling different and NOT changing the line any at all. Let it be DONE done.

I think you are at that place with your wife. Just tell her "Nope. I do not talk about Dude." And firmly set it aside. Leave the room. Hold the line.



It IS hard. Because you no longer have a healthy functioning partner. You have a PATIENT partner.

There will be things you never get to talk about or express to your patient person because it is futile, goes over their heads, or doesn't really do anything to improve quality of life or daily living with a patient person. That's what counselors and support groups are for. To get to air that stuff out there.

And sometimes mental health patients push your buttons on purpose to see if you still will hold the line. You holding the line firm helps them feel safe. But it is irritating as heck to have them poking over and over. Healthy people don't do that. But... that's the thing. They are not healthy. They are mental health patients.



I hope you are able to determine that with your counselor. You are having to change your whole view of yourself, your wife and your marriage as you see her more clearly as "my PATIENT wife" and no longer "my wife."

Hang in there.
Galagirl

What can I say, when you're right, you're right. In some ways, there seemed to be this small part of me that hoped that there would be this moment of "ok, I have to tell you, there WAS more to it then I led you to believe" scenario from her. Which I guess is why I seemed so willing to indulge whenever she would bring him up. Before, when I would bring him up, she was the one wanting to change the subject, so I suppose in some way, I felt like I wasn't done talking about - not just him - but the situation as a whole.

That being said, I have to say that some of the most serene & comfortable moments we've had since this whole thing took place, were the times when there was space & time between the current moment, and the last time we spoke. In other words, not even noticing that we weren't talking about it anymore seemed to have brought the peace.

And I think you're right about holding the boundaries, especially when it comes to deciding NOT to talk about him anymore. I'm reminded of a day (she was still talking to him at the time), a couple of weeks after the poly declaration, when we had an argument one morning, and I just put my hands up & said, "I'm going for a drive". I left for a couple of hours, and on the way back, she sent a message, asking if we could please not talk more when I got home... I told her that I actually didn't want to talk about it at all. When I got home, it was tense. I still had that look on my face, but didn't say a word. She then kept pressing me by asking what was wrong. I told her just to forget it, and that I don't want to talk. I think that, with some people (not even necessarily mentally ill), they get this feeling of satisfaction being the one to shut the conversation down. She could tell me all day, every day, that she didn't want to talk, and really mean it, but as soon as someone tells them the same thing, their tone changes. She began to seem worried that I was angry with her. Eventually, I assured her that I wasn't so much angry, and that I had no intention of going anywhere, but I WAS hurt, and I just needed some time to process everything, and hopefully take my mind off of it all too. I told her that she could do whatever she likes, but I was tired & needed to rest. It was then, that she began taking small steps to remove him from her life, unprovoked. And her tone did begin to change once she saw that I wasn't going to put up with the drama anymore. Yes, it's been some bumpy roads in that journey, but we are getting there. I'm really just hoping that there isn;t the need to rip that scab open again... I agree with you however, if it does, I need to stand firm not indulge.

 

[GalaGirl]

Let me reflect that back to you so you can see it again.

That being said, I have to say that some of the most serene & comfortable moments we've had since this whole thing took place, were the times when there was space & time between the current moment, and the last time we spoke. In other words, not even noticing that we weren't talking about it anymore seemed to have brought the peace.

Yup. Hold the line. If you still need to talk about it, talk with your counselor instead of with patient wife.

we had an argument one morning, and I just put my hands up & said, "I'm going for a drive". I left for a couple of hours, and on the way back, she sent a message, asking if we could please not talk more when I got home... I told her that I actually didn't want to talk about it at all.

You meeting your need for a break FIRST. (taking a drive to get out.)

You holding the line. (Boundary = We are not talking about Dude.)

When I got home, it was tense. I still had that look on my face, but didn't say a word. She then kept pressing me by asking what was wrong. I told her just to forget it, and that I don't want to talk.

You holding the line. (Boundary = We are not talking about Dude.)

She began to seem worried that I was angry with her. Eventually, I assured her that I wasn't so much angry, and that I had no intention of going anywhere, but I WAS hurt, and I just needed some time to process everything, and hopefully take my mind off of it all too. I told her that she could do whatever she likes, but I was tired & needed to rest.

Holding the line. (Boundary = "I do my stuff (my need for rest, my need to do my emotional management) FIRST so I am operating out of a full tank of gas and not burning out. Then I can help you with some of your (reasonable and rational) stuff SECOND.")

Reassure. While taking back YOUR stuff to put on YOUR plate. She was taking your upset on board for herself and cranking herself up with it. Your emotional management is YOUR job.(My stuff = my emotional management)

Put her stuff back on her plate. (Her stuff = her own emotional management right then)

It was then, that she began taking small steps to remove him from her life, unprovoked. And her tone did begin to change once she saw that I wasn't going to put up with the drama anymore.

Patient owning and doing her stuff.

See? When you hold the line, and you tell your patient wife what to DO (i.e.: Stop taking my stuff. Get on with doing your own stuff.) she can get on with doing her own stuff. She is still capable.

You could do more of this approach. Expect her to be capable and HOLD THE LINE. I think if you keep doing that, life in the house will get a bit better.

She has her own counselor to talk to if she wants to be picking at scabs. You are not her therapist. That's another boundary line to hold.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

I'd like to suggest you were also responsible for amping up the drama. Own your part in it. Now you are turning down the fire on the drama, yourself, instead of fueling the flames, and that is great!

 

[CTF]

I'd like to suggest you were also responsible for amping up the drama. Own your part in it. Now you are turning down the fire on the drama, yourself, instead of fueling the flames, and that is great!

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely owning up to my share of the drama & unpleasantness that resulted in these - seemingly - circular discussions. Yes, I had a moment of weakness where I indulged a couple of weeks ago, but for the most part, I really am doing my best to keep any of these potential discussions about it from actually taking place. I'm not perfect, nor am I innocent of adding to the tension. But I want to move on just as much.

 

[dingedheart]

cou
I began contemplating the possibility of working out an agreement, in which she will begin to be able to speak with him again. Just to be clear, I never expressly forbade it, it was her decision all along, but I was ready to leave if it continued. But under the right circumstances, I think that there may be some room for both he and I in her life. And although I have a few conditions that, if met, could make this a possibility, I'm afraid that this might not be something that I could be comfortable with either way. The last thing I want to do, is keep going back & forth on this, and leave her in a perpetual state of wondering if and when I'm going to freak out.

Are there any suggestions out there about how to get the ball rolling, without either one of us feeling like emotional yo-yos?

Sorry I'm late to the game on this but WHY ? I haven't read any of the other comments but I think the death and loss of this online friend has hit a soft spot in you.

What's your upside ??? Will this make your house or life run better ?

Are you looking for proof....could this be a test wrapped in goodwill gesture.?

Did she ever take you up on going to couples therapy ?