Is This the Final Red Flag? Hotwife, Poly, and Possible Rectification

[MeeraReed]

Just to clarify the abbreviations you use for the benefit of other readers: OPP = "one penis policy"

(You also used PP to mean "primary partner," but at a quick glance I thought you meant "penis policy," LOL.)

Okay. You sound very thoughtful, introspective, and willing to question yourself. I think you've gotten some very good advice here so far.

To offer an answer to a couple of your specific questions:

Has anyone successfully negotiated dating a hotwife/a person who assigns lesser emotional value to sex than themselves?

I think the problem here is your framing of casual sex as "assigning lesser emotional value to sex" than you do. I mean, sure, people who like casual sex are able to enjoy sex with someone they have no emotional connection to. And other people just don't enjoy sex without an emotional connection. But...so what? Why do you assign a value judgment (a negative value judgment) toward casual sex, and toward people who have casual sex?

I think you are not understanding a big part of why casual sex appeals to some people: because there IS an emotional value to it, for them. The emotion may not be "love for the person I'm having sex with," but it'll be a different emotion. Maybe it's about their personal sexuality or kinks. Maybe it's about their spouse's kinks (especially in a hotwife/cuckolding situation). Maybe it's about the erotic thrill of a sexy stranger, and how it can feel so uncomplicated, or so freeing to be so uninhibited, to be connecting on a purely physical level. Or whatever.

During the rare times in my life when I enjoyed casual sex, I was extraordinarily happy and pulsing with youthful sexual energy and confidence and autonomy...my emotions were quite strong...it just wasn't love for a particular person that I felt.

So I think, if you want to stay with C, you will have to try harder to appreciate why casual sex has value for her. YOU don't need to enjoy casual sex yourself...but you need to be able to accept that it's an important part of who she is (or, you need to conclude that you and C just aren't compatible).

Am I being "trickle truthed" here in your opinion?

No. C has been very honest about who she is (a hotwife) this whole time. She struggles to tell you things about her flirting and other encounters because she knows you don't like it and it upsets you. She has been very clear about telling you she couldn't commit to just being with you and her SO.

You say that you don't like the idea of a One Penis Policy...but do you wish you could implement a Two Penis Policy? (And doesn't that sound as silly as an OPP, when it's written out like that?)

You began the relationship with her by saying you were willing to try to grow (to understanding the casual sex thing). You did say you'd need help with it, but it sounds like C has been very steady and reassuring about her love for you this whole time. What other "help" do you need? What "help" do you think C can provide about this issue?

Am I being ignorant, controlling, or incorrect in my behaviour some way?

To me, yes, your attitude seems controlling. (But I am way on the extreme end of the autonomy spectrum). To me, you have set up a dynamic where C has to continually apologize for being who she's always said she is and for doing what she's always done.

Even the fact that you call her behavior "red flags" when it is normal hotwife behavior...well, to me, that's a red flag indicating you just aren't compatible with her. She doesn't seem to be doing anything awful [leaving aside COVID risk stuff, but you don't say that's what concerns you].

Can I ask you, if are you able to articulate it, exactly how does C's casual sex affect you, in actuality? Other than the jealousy feelings, how does what she does with her body impact you?

I say this based on my own experience. My partner of 9 years has a wildly higher sex drive than me, plus he is kinkier and just generally wants to do way more sex stuff than I do. He is extroverted, loves flirting, appreciates casual sex, and sometimes falls in love with casual flings. (Pre-COVID, that is...he is super lonely right now). From my point of view, what he does with his body when I am not there has almost zero impact on me. (STI risk is the only impact on me).

My partner doesn't check in with me for every little flirtation and encounter. I would find that quite intrusive and tedious! I don't need to know if he got hot & heavy on the dance floor at a club, or flirted with someone at a bar, or whatever. He tells me when he has sex with someone new, so I can assess my STI risk (and also because he is happy to share his good news! he got laid!), but he doesn't need my permission beforehand.

I think you have created a situation with C where the required check-ins are not working. You get upset, and she is reluctant to tell you things. Would you be able to try detaching yourself from needing to know about her other encounters? [Except as they impact you for COVID safety or whatever]. Would you be willing to try a more autonomous model of non-monogamy?

If not, you just might not be compatible with C.

You say you are more hierarchical in your approach to poly...what does that mean, exactly? That you want a poly model where you & your partner need to have a lot of talks & negotiations & give permission for other encounters/dates?

What do you want for yourself long-term? It doesn't seem like C is actually available to be your primary partner, since she has her SO already. Do you imagine having a primary partner of your own someday, with C in a more secondary role? In that context, would you care less about what she did sexually when you aren't around?

 

[tallbosguy]

I think the problem here is your framing of casual sex as "assigning lesser emotional value to sex" than you do. I mean, sure, people who like casual sex are able to enjoy sex with someone they have no emotional connection to. And other people just don't enjoy sex without an emotional connection. But...so what? Why do you assign a value judgment (a negative value judgment) toward casual sex, and toward people who have casual sex?

I think you are not understanding a big part of why casual sex appeals to some people: because there IS an emotional value to it, for them. The emotion may not be "love for the person I'm having sex with," but it'll be a different emotion. Maybe it's about their personal sexuality or kinks. Maybe it's about their spouse's kinks (especially in a hotwife/cuckolding situation). Maybe it's about the erotic thrill of a sexy stranger, and how it can feel so uncomplicated, or so freeing to be so uninhibited, to be connecting on a purely physical level. Or whatever.

During the rare times in my life when I enjoyed casual sex, I was extraordinarily happy and pulsing with youthful sexual energy and confidence and autonomy...my emotions were quite strong...it just wasn't love for a particular person that I felt.

So I think, if you want to stay with C, you will have to try harder to appreciate why casual sex has value for her. YOU don't need to enjoy casual sex yourself...but you need to be able to accept that it's an important part of who she is (or, you need to conclude that you and C just aren't compatible).

You hit something here that I have been working on all day. I did have my wild younger days, like you and many other folks. You are right that the casual sex may be for something different, say the physical thrill versus closeness with someone else versus whatever. Physical relations with me mean one thing versus another, which is okay.

Even the fact that you call her behavior "red flags" when it is normal hotwife behavior...well, to me, that's a red flag indicating you just aren't compatible with her. She doesn't seem to be doing anything awful [leaving aside COVID risk stuff, but you don't say that's what concerns you].

Can I ask you, if are you able to articulate it, exactly how does C's casual sex affect you, in actuality? Other than the jealousy feelings, how does what she does with her body impact you?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I was more upset that it was the after the fact admittance that was a red flag when it was asked by her to me to make this behaviour clear, and me to her. Again, I was hurt that I was abiding and open to help her through her insecurity while I got it these situations after the fact. It made recovering a little harder because the trust was a bit fractured. That's all. I wasn't referring to the other portions of her behaviour, just that the "Oh well I was doing this this and this" while telling me before the opposite. Again, if it was something that I couldn't provide I would understand, but the outright denial overall really licked.

As for the jealousy part, you're absolutely right about what she does having no impact. That is why I am scouting around for clues. This shouldn't bother me because I know it makes our relationship no less special and jealousy is an irrational finicky monster. I am just frustrated it reemerged so strongly.

Would you be willing to try a more autonomous model of non-monogamy?

Would you mind expanding on what this is a little bit?

You say you are more hierarchical in your approach to poly...what does that mean, exactly?

My previous relationships were typically her, I, and her SO with a few others who were long term. I am very attached to knowing people, I love people and strangers as I feel they enrich my life. These relationships were more evolution than revolution so to say, with an emphasis on the relationship and trust. I liked meeting the other people and having this group of people in my life, and it gave me some great memories. Again, and sorry for being a broken record, it is that my behaviour reverts to this style of closer and slower with regards to sexual encounters as C and I mirror these previous relationships I had been in by pretty much every way but sexual. As you know manners can be hard to change as we humans go off of our previous encounters by instinct. Hence my frustration with failing to overcome this challenge.

"What do you want for yourself long-term? It doesn't seem like C is actually available to be your primary partner, since she has her SO already. Do you imagine having a primary partner of your own someday, with C in a more secondary role? In that context, would you care less about what she did sexually when you aren't around?"

Yes, and that is why I have been looking on how single people have dealt with pandemic loneliness. There is no doubt in my mind that my feelings of stress and isolation have greatly contributed to this overall. I do not want C to be a primary partner for me, and I am planning to look for an understanding primary in a few years when I have my studies wrapped up with C as a secondary. I suppose that it would bother me less, yes. That is something I haven't really considered.

 

[GalaGirl]

I could be wrong.

But it sounds like you are very lonely in pandemic/grad studies land. And you REALLY struggle when C and you don't get time together on the phone or online.

Last time? You weren't having enough time together. So you felt upset when she had casual sex and was online chatting. For her it may have been non serious fun. For you? It hurt because she was making time for these strangers yet where was time for you? Did you ASK for time?

This time? She's off on vacation with her hubby. Here you are again feeling out of touch and kinda cut off. Did you ASK for some time? To at least call or text to say goodnight while on vacation?

Maybe you two need to talk about managing that next time. What you need for "before care" and "after care" if there's going to be a period of time "extra LDR apart" rather than "regular LDR apart." Cuz your brain goes to strange spaces when cut off from contact from the sound of it.

it is that my behaviour reverts to this style of closer and slower with regards to sexual encounters

That is your style. You and C are not copies of each other. She has her own style.

Even twins who look alike? Would each have their own style for how they like to relate and open to people.

3 years of LDR is a long time. Esp if you get triggered by tough days and then become more aware/sensitive to your loneliness because you get home and there is nobody there.

It seems like you need SOME kind of regular pattern or schedule. Like a goodnight call or text. Because in an LDR? The contact is going to be primarily over online/text/phone kind of things. You don't get to do "in person" stuff as much. It's kinda "flat" that way. So extra effort has to be made to keep connection alive.

You also sound like you need to do some feelings management on your own. Look at what you write:

• I have been looking on how single people have dealt with pandemic loneliness.
• I would love to be okay with this, the previous pangs of jealousy and such were becoming less scary each time and that was great.
• I admit, somedays I am feeling good and I do feel okay saying "it is just sex." But then days like today where work and stress are piling up it compounds.
• And yes, I think you are right that this as an LDR and being inconsistent is tough.
• This is the frustrating part because i know that isn't true, but it feels that way.
• There is no doubt in my mind that my feelings of stress and isolation have greatly contributed to this overall.

Do you have friends to talk to? Share with?How do you combat stress?

Do you overlean on C? Trying to make her "default primary" anyway, even though you know she's not it? Or having her be your main de-stress person?

I do not want C to be a primary partner for me, and I am planning to look for an understanding primary in a few years when I have my studies wrapped up with C as a secondary.

Have you told C this? Because it might help her with this.

I would say she is worried losing me too someone who demands monogamy.

Really it doesn't matter if a potential wants you to do mongamy with them. If YOU do not want it? You say "no thanks" and C doesn't have to sweat it.

I am more of a hierarchal poly person

You said you prefer heirarchical poly somewhere above.

During solo poly you are your own primary. Could do more of that.

It might also help YOU to start viewing this relationship as a good one, but C is your "secondary." So it's not her job to do "primary" stuff. Like start adjusting your head to that now, rather than waiting for a primary to arrive and then adjust.

Because it might alleviate some of the pressure off both of you.

Have you thought about online dating some? I know grad school is super busy, and maybe if you are close to being done you suck it up and just get done.

But if grad is a ways off maybe you change your program pacing? Take grad school classes slower so you can have a bit better work-life balance while getting through the grad school during a pandemic time?

If the goal is grad and moving to a city 2 hours from C? Focus on the goal and what you need to do in the meanwhile to stay mentally healthy and emotionally healthy while completing your grad program.

Galagirl

 

[tallbosguy]

But it sounds like you are very lonely in pandemic/grad studies land. And you REALLY struggle when C and you don't get time together on the phone or online.

Last time? You weren't having enough time together. So you felt upset when she had casual sex and was online chatting. For her it may have been non serious fun. For you? It hurt because she was making time for these strangers yet where was time for you? Did you ASK for time?

Well we constantly are. You mention I might overlean on her which I think is definitely something I worry about. I have brought it up to which she was open in saying she enjoyed it, which while comforting - as I think you may agree - can act as a double edged sword.

It seems like you need SOME kind of regular pattern or schedule. Like a goodnight call or text. Because in an LDR? The contact is going to be primarily over online/text/phone kind of things. You don't get to do "in person" stuff as much. It's kinda "flat" that way. So extra effort has to be made to keep connection alive.

I can't understate how we have a regular pattern that is very strong outside of this. Goodnights, checking in on self projects with encouragement, etc. You're right that it feels a bit flat at times because lets face it, a cold flat screen is not a nice warm cuddle, but honestly I gotta say she has really been great about that aspect of it all.

Have you told C this? Because it might help her with this.

Really it doesn't matter if a potential wants you to do mongamy with them. If YOU do not want it? You say "no thanks" and C doesn't have to sweat it.

I'll respond to both since they are sorta relate. She knows, as our grounds rules on making each other aware was because she was worried she would be cast aside completely and wanted to be involved after any primary got involved. I gotta say I am blessed with riches as it comes to friends and I cherish them, I do not throw them away willingly. I've made it a point to let her know that amongst my close friends she holds a special place and I would like to have her as a secondary if she wanted. She was very agreeable and seemed happy about it, she has said many times she would like me around as long as I let her. As I mentioned in another post I told her verbatim, whether she is involved or not I am poly, and I need a primary to understand that.

As for your middle/last points, I have actively begun writing during these tough times reminders that while C and I are close, happiness begins at home and I need to work on loving myself. I have done...okay....with this and have tried to remind myself that 2021 is a year of self love. I do appreciate your other tips, though they are not as practical as I am directly involved with the pandemic response so while I would love to slow the pace it is impractical without costing literal health and safety of folks. And to be honest, as sad as it is I would rather be sad for a few tough days than let someone pass away.

But as for solo poly, that is interesting. You and others have made me reflect hard on a "mission creep" type issue, where the emotional similarity of this to previous relationships has led me to expect a sexual similarity of before while she is not the people involved before. For those who arent familiar mission creep is when roles get sent to a military unit or company division until they are no longer specialized, they do everything and it helps fail. Kinda like death by a thousand cuts as new expectations are added piece-meal.

I also do not want to discount the advice of the others, but I really want to thank you Gala specifically. Not only did you format everything nicely but while the others are close to understanding my situation I was not clear due to the scattering of my post, so despite their good intentions I felt it was advice well intended but not entirely applicable without clarification. Then you posted and I feel like somehow you are sitting on my shoulder with the same view but a new perspective almost immediately. Really, I appreciate you helping out a random stranger like me, I hope the kindness is returned to you ten-fold.

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad it helped you some.

where the emotional similarity of this to previous relationships has led me to expect a sexual similarity of before while she is not the people involved before.

Yes. "Mission creep" -- she's not the other people you dated before. So check your expectations.

I didn't realize your work included being a pandemic helper. So yeah, changing your grad school pacing/work is not realistic when you are so needed.

Do try to get some mini breaks in there though -- as important as it is to help patients and others with the pandemic? You need to take care of you too. Sleep, eat, shower, etc.

One cannot pour from an empty cup.

Hang in there!
GG

 

[tdh]

@tallbosguy Everyone gives a lot of great advice but there are a few details I have gotten lost in reading the whole thread. Pardon if I just missed them

1) C and you are only emotionally close? It feels like your language ping pongs back and forth between committed longer partners romance, friendship, and sexually to just talking to intimate talking friendship with overtures of romance or sex in the way you talk. Both are valid relationships but I just got lost on which one (or somewhere in the middle) your relationship is.

2) Is the possessiveness talk is one way? The partners who used terms like "I hate to lose you" or being glad they are the "only one" means they usually feel or have something they haven't shared that may be a deal breaker or they are not worthy of love for some reason. But they are loving the attention so much they really won't share it if they don't have to.

3) You feel connected by talking, you get words of affirmation, but are you actually being satisfied? The way it reads to me as things feel comfortable and familiar but you either a) aren't seeing the extra relationships to get all your boxes ticked or b) really would want a closed triad but you enjoy this one person you might be scared to say that as you think it could end things.

I have had friends that have described themselves as relationship chameleon, calling them RCs from this point on, where they can take on the words, language, mannerism of who ever they like/are interested in. RCs might start getting into their hobbies, using their language, dressing in ways they like or see, loving their favorite foods, etc... RCs can lose themselves in whatever moment they are in and RCs feel satisfied. This losing oneself can be true with anyone at any moment. RCs could even maintain that attitude until the next personal orbit. So it always surprised partners, friends, or family to hear about all the stuff RCs have done/do when "that isn't the person they know" but it really is just not with you. Any partners who are a "straight shooters" have a hard time with RCs because they always feel "the rug is pulled out from their feet" but the RCs in question are more like "it just didn't come up" or "that was in a different (relationship/time/place)".

This kind of feels like the situation you are describing or am I off here?

 

[tallbosguy]

1) C and you are only emotionally close?

When we are together we are sexually close as well. As for your question, my language ping pongs as I can't define this thing. She has nicknamed me her boyfriend, told me I am the second longest relationship she has and while relationships have a ton of definitions, boundaries, and freedoms consented to I am at a bit of a loss to peg what we have. We have committed to continuing this as long as we both want, sharing close things, doubts, dreams, but sexually not so much. Both her and I have worked on it over time, but as what started this thread I was panicked and disgusted with the strength of my jealousy attack today, and while I have been thinking about my source of this was curious if it was something even "bridgable."

Is the possessiveness talk is one way?

While I have reiterated the "possessiveness" it has been in terms mostly as her importance to me, though I have brought up moments of jealousy or my worries that I will become boring over a LTR - something I came up against in a previous NMR. I would say maybe 2/3rds of the worry about being dropped is from her, again as I am "single" in that sense and she understandably has a worry there, at least when it comes to intense conversation about the future. However the possessiveness doesn't really arise for us unless we get a crisis feeling as our day to day chat are strong, even when things are boring. We know we like each other. I haven't thought of her saying those exact phrases (I haven't used them personally) as anything possessive to be honest, that would be a new view for me.

3) You feel connected by talking, you get words of affirmation, but are you actually being satisfied? The way it reads to me as things feel comfortable and familiar but you either a) aren't seeing the extra relationships to get all your boxes ticked or b) really would want a closed triad but you enjoy this one person you might be scared to say that as you think it could end things.

I mean I won't lie, as GG stated above LDR's are hard and I would love to be more sexually satisfied, and a big part of me with this I think is missing out on it being more regular. I also am quite envious that they can go out while I am stuck in, something that fireice brought up. However with life that sometimes that satisfaction just can't be, in this case due to distsance. I give her credit, after a bit of falloff from fading NRE she scaled back but was responsive after I spoke about feeling unsatisfied twice. When she couldn't due to scheduling she did say that I would be able to look at others but with the pandemic this isn't possible. I hate to say it but it adds to the jealousy as while she has tried to be helpful her suggestions have been a bit blind to COVID. But as for care and emotional help and support when I asked before, or just in general? Yeah she does a great job about it.

As for the RC.... yes and no. I think she genuinely likes me and vice versa. I think that she is strong enough to know what she wants but is a little fearful of losing me, we've all been there with a partner. I think this fear, while helpful in her commitment to trying to help me get to a point of comfort is also part of why she hides things (though it seems the board more thinks it is my reaction). I will say sometimes, especially when it is late and fatigue ramps up she has come on strong worried that I will disappear, even so far practically begging to remain friends even if I am forced to be monogamous. This has happened a few times, hell my jealousy has as well, and I don't mind calmly reiterating to her I am poly whether she is part of it or not, and I would very much like to continue to know her as I have.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello tallbosguy,
From what I gather from the thread so far, your three main problems are:

• the fact that the relationship with C is long-distance,
• her tendency to fib or at least not tell the whole truth about her dates,
• the photo you saw of her with a hotwife anklet, and your reaction to it.

I guess my advice would be to separate the problems that will eventually go away on their own, from the problems that at least require some work to get past. For instance the long-distance thing. My understanding is that you already have plans to fix that situation, you just need to finish your grad studies. So the grad studies themselves become part of the problem, as you seem to be struggling to wait out the long-distance factor.

The thing with the anklet photo, that is a problem that won't go away on its own. You will have to do some work to be okay with her proclivity towards casual sex. And I don't know if any amount of work will be enough. You might always have that strong, painful reaction to her proclivity and the signs of it. I know that she gave you her word she would help you through things, her indication that she would prepare you for things like that photo. It's unfortunate that she failed to do that, but it is also telling that you needed such preparation.

Her tendency to fib falls more under the, "Will have to be worked on," category. She's afraid that she'll lose you, and that fear isn't going to go away by itself. You need to figure out how to make that fear go away, and you seem to be struggling with that. Your attempts to reassure her don't seem to stick.

These, "Will need work," problems, are extra concerning because they may require an infinite amount of work, or more work than you have years for. Some problems will not go away so easily. They may constitute permanent incompatibilities, and if they do, then you will have to figure out how serious they are, and whether you can tolerate them as a permanent condition. Maybe the thing to do is to set a sort of slow timer -- say a year -- and see if you can make headway on those problems before the time expires. If you can't, then you know you have to figure out whether you can endure those problems for the rest of your life.

I don't have any strong advice, just mostly a bit of perspective and some food for thought. Good luck, I hope you are able to iron out the bumps in your situation. For what it's worth, it seems hopeful to me that you will be able to do that. But the only way to know for sure is to give it a try, and learn by experience. GalaGirl has gave some great advice, I hope you can make good use of it.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

No not quite, just that she would be doing so. I do not want to know the intimates, I think that would be inappropriate and controlling. And to be frank, I hate that jealousy popping up, it isn't right to have to have her get involved with it as it limits what she wants and her fun. That is what kicked off my research here, I was just looking for suggestions on how to tackle that myself.

I admit, somedays I am feeling good and I do feel okay saying "it is just sex." But then days like today where work and stress are piling up it compounds.

As for the safety, yes it is a concern as I work on front line COVID issues where several crisis have resulted in deaths. However where she is indeed "safer" relative to where I presume all you fine folks are.

There is this cliche that when it is right, it will be easy. And I kinda believe that. But I also believe that a little work to make it easy is ok too. A balance, right?

I feel like some of what you're trying to implement is what comes when everything is organically "easy". When I think of my 2 or 3 closest partners (or friends for that matter), I can't remember the last time I felt completely blindsided by something in their life where they were not also surprised by the turn of events. Be that a new relationship commitment, a health issue, or anything really. That's because we have all the components we need to be able to have that type of communication. Those things are frequent access to each other (a lot by phone and video atm obv.), attraction, attachment and just... connection.

It may well be that the only thing obstructing that is access to each other due to distance (as others said) and if/when this changes, you'll naturally have the free flowing communication which lets you know where the other is right now and where they're heading without having to think about it. It doesn't become part of "work" or "processing", you're just interacting.

I have one relationship that was long distance for a long time. I found that I stopped talking about the small stuff. Actually it has only been after months of living together now (along with my nesting partner) that we actually discussed how things were. She said she was reminded of having a word count in school work. There is so much you want to say, but even in person when we had days together, you're trying to do 2 things:

1) use that time wisely and focus on the big things
2) keep it positive

So you skip over some things that made your day bad or you don't address issues you might have with your partner/relationship or you just don't tell them all those little things, share your opinions about things that are going on in the world. Some things you can't avoid talking about even if you wanted to. Like when we were long distance, I could theoretically go on a date with someone or meet someone and be doing that NRE texting all the time without her knowing because she was across the world. Now, it would be very hard to hide that. Even if she just lived nearby, it would be harder to hide those early days of a relationship.

But I agree with what Marcus said mostly..I'm just giving another perspective. A differential if you will.

 

[MeeraReed]

MeeraReed said:
Would you be willing to try a more autonomous model of non-monogamy?

tallbosguy wrote: Would you mind expanding on what this is a little bit?

Sure, I'll try. I believe that there is a spectrum in the way people approach non-monogamy/poly with one end being based around rules/ comfort/ security/ stability and the other end based around individual autonomy/ independence/ freedom. At the extreme rules-end, you would need permission from your partner for every flirtation and date, etc. At the extreme freedom end, partners don't even need to inform each other of what they do. Some people prefer one end, some the other, some are in the middle. Both have benefits and drawbacks.

For me, I am fairly far at the autonomy-end of the spectrum. For me, the purpose of non-monogamy is to have freedom that you don't have in monogamy. That freedom is both sexual and romantic, but it started originally with my desire to explore my sexuality with no restrictions. (Falling in love with more than one person, for me, is a side effect of having the freedom to have sex with more than one person.)

So, when I set out to be ethically non-monogamous, I looked for partners who shared the same freedom-based approach. For example, I turned down a date with a married poly guy who seemed cool but said he was "concerned" that I liked casual sex. I wasn't sure I would ever want purely casual sex again, but I didn't like the idea that I would have to explain and restrict my desires. (I could just date a monogamous person, rather than a married poly guy, if I wanted that!). I also turned down dates with guys in open relationships who had rules that they can't fall in love with their sex partners. And also, married poly people who needed me to meet their wife before they were allowed to go on a date with me--that was also a "no" for me.

Eventually I got lucky and met someone who shared my view that the purpose of non-monogamy is to be able to have relationships AND be autonomous at the same time. We developed a relationship based on our need for autonomy. We don't restrict each other, but we also make sure that our other dating adventures impact each other as little as possible. (For example, we don't live together, because having separate households gives each of us the independence we crave. That way, my partner doesn't need to get my okay to have a date sleep over).

Plenty of people wouldn't be happy having that much independence. And sometimes, living apart is a challenge (especially in the pandemic).

For your situation, specifically, my suggestion would be to try to shift your thinking about the purpose of non-monogamy. For you, probably the purpose of being poly is to be emotionally close with more than one person. But maybe C is more like me--the reason she is non-monogamous is to have sexual freedom, but she sometimes develops loving relationships out of sex partners. (You met her originally in the context of potentially doing a hotwife thing, I think??)

So maybe try shifting your thinking to the idea that retaining individual autonomy--for both you and C--is an essential component of your relationship. Like, you don't put any restrictions on each other's lives. But that goes both ways--if it's not C's job to reassure you about her casual exploits, it's not your job to reassure her about other dating prospects for you either. You would have the autonomy to date freely yourself, too.

I can see how frustrating it is for you that you spent a lot of energy reassuring C about her fears of losing you to a monogamous person, and then she only told you about her flirty stuff after the fact. I mean, it's reasonable to be concerned about that and to see how that develops.

Having gotten more of the context for your situation, I don't think it's the casual sex per se that's bothering you. Like Galagirl said, you are stressed out and lonely in your grad program. C is far away. And maybe she seems to be having plenty of fun without you? Like, you are dealing with the front lines of the pandemic, but she is going on vacation with her husband and maybe having recreational sex in a COVD-risky way?

Maybe the COVID stuff is more of an issue than it seemed in your first post? I'm not sure I would want to be dating a swinger who kept swinging during the pandemic. Like, I can respect the idea of casual sex a lot, and still think our values are misaligned if someone thinks casual sex during the pandemic is a good idea.

Or, another possibility: is the jealousy issue actually about her SO/husband? Because the hotwife bracelet thing is really about her husband, right? She's advertising herself as a hotwife, largely for his benefit? It's a swinging thing they do together? Meanwhile, you are in a stressful program and don't even get to spend time with her.

I am actually in somewhat a similar situation to you right now in that my life is not super fun, and COVID stuff makes it difficult to see my partner. I am mostly just caretaking for my dad with Parkinson's, going nowhere and doing nothing. It's stressful and lonely. Meanwhile my partner has a new house with a hot tub and a quarantine-bubble with fun people in it. I am normally not jealous of anything he does, but I have started to get resentful of how much easier his life seems. And, someone he was casually dating last year is interested in seeing him again, and she's getting her second dose of the vaccine this week, so he is excited that he can maybe see her safely.

But I feel grumpy about it because I can't visit him right now. And I can't realistically date anyone else right now either. And I can't even get my parents vaccinated anytime soon. It just sucks.

 

[Evie]

One small comment from me:

I also know she was completely adverse to hearing about any nights out her spouse had, and still is to an extent.

Yep, I totally get where she's coming from. I don't feel jealousy about such things, I just have a very ingrained value about not wanting to know (or share) the details.

 

[tallbosguy]

But that goes both ways--if it's not C's job to reassure you about her casual exploits, it's not your job to reassure her about other dating prospects for you either. You would have the autonomy to date freely yourself, too.

I can see how frustrating it is for you that you spent a lot of energy reassuring C about her fears of losing you to a monogamous person, and then she only told you about her flirty stuff after the fact. I mean, it's reasonable to be concerned about that and to see how that develops.

You know, I really think you hit something here. I appreciate this because while others said it was "controlling" I really feel it is a double standard at times because it was part of her ask when we talked about where this was going. We clearly know that we would like to see each other more, and I do feel a bit frustrated by the fact I have been always the one to be clear about what is going on on my end.

Having gotten more of the context for your situation, I don't think it's the casual sex per se that's bothering you. Like Galagirl said, you are stressed out and lonely in your grad program. C is far away. And maybe she seems to be having plenty of fun without you? Like, you are dealing with the front lines of the pandemic, but she is going on vacation with her husband and maybe having recreational sex in a COVD-risky way?

Maybe the COVID stuff is more of an issue than it seemed in your first post? I'm not sure I would want to be dating a swinger who kept swinging during the pandemic. Like, I can respect the idea of casual sex a lot, and still think our values are misaligned if someone thinks casual sex during the pandemic is a good idea.

Yeah absolutely, I took a day yesterday for myself to help feel better. Got a good day of feeling in and while I am tired it feels a little bit better overall. The lack of intimacy available during this time is a killer emotionally, I am sure we all are in that frame.

Or, another possibility: is the jealousy issue actually about her SO/husband? Because the hotwife bracelet thing is really about her husband, right? She's advertising herself as a hotwife, largely for his benefit? It's a swinging thing they do together? Meanwhile, you are in a stressful program and don't even get to spend time with her.

Eh not particularly, he seems cool and we get along, and while she denies this phrase I think she is closer to that area on the open spectrum. But I appreciate your alternative view from this point.

I am actually in somewhat a similar situation to you right now in that my life is not super fun, and COVID stuff makes it difficult to see my partner. I am mostly just caretaking for my dad with Parkinson's, going nowhere and doing nothing. It's stressful and lonely. Meanwhile my partner has a new house with a hot tub and a quarantine-bubble with fun people in it. I am normally not jealous of anything he does, but I have started to get resentful of how much easier his life seems. And, someone he was casually dating last year is interested in seeing him again, and she's getting her second dose of the vaccine this week, so he is excited that he can maybe see her safely.

Yeah this is my big struggle I think. I would usually go out and have some fun myself during these times, be it sexually, romantically, etc. But instead it feels like I am in the penalty box so to say.

 

[tallbosguy]

So the grad studies themselves become part of the problem

Sorry everyone, work has piled up again so I am responding to these piecemeal.

Eh, yes I guess I must admit they have as they have breached the stress silo to spill over. I'll reflect on that.

It's unfortunate that she failed to do that, but it is also telling that you needed such preparation.

Can you tell me why it is telling? Are you just referring to that is the source of the problem?

I'll highlight it later but after thinking I have begun trying to reconcile these feelings. One that I cannot though is feeling upset that there is an expectation for me to be transparent but not the other way. I have read through, and while I agree with people's points that sure, she is doing her thing but that this transparency request feels like having cake and eating it too, and putting pressure on me to be the balance. Am I wrong?

 

[GalaGirl]

I'll highlight it later but after thinking I have begun trying to reconcile these feelings. One that I cannot though is feeling upset that there is an expectation for me to be transparent but not the other way.

Her telling you "I cannot promise Closed. I like to swing/do casual sex." That's not transparent enough?

AGREEMENT

• You both made an agreement to tell.
• Being open about other potential people coming into the overall relationship -- like if she got a new serious partner or you got a new serious partner.
• On the casual lovers front, the agreement was to _____?
  • What more do you need in this area to feel more secure and like this is transparent enough for you?

It sounds like you need agreements around casual sex. What would be fair ones? That before she shares sex again with you, she has to let you know if there's been new people since the last time you and her shared sex? So she can still be spontaneous? And you can still be informed so you can make your sex health hygiene decisions?

Something else?

I have read through, and while I agree with people's points that sure, she is doing her thing but that this transparency request feels like having cake and eating it too, and putting pressure on me to be the balance. Am I wrong?

I guess I don't understand why you don't just decline if you think something is a double standard.

She makes a request that you tell her about ______.

You don't feel like doing it because you think it is a double standard. You say "No, thanks. I won't be meeting that request."

Then you don't have to feel any pressure or be doing stuff you don't want to be doing.

Or if you changed your mind "Heads up. I changed my mind. I won't be doing _____ any more. " Keep it easier on you.

I give her credit, after a bit of falloff from fading NRE she scaled back but was responsive after I spoke about feeling unsatisfied twice. When she couldn't due to scheduling she did say that I would be able to look at others but with the pandemic this isn't possible. I hate to say it but it adds to the jealousy as while she has tried to be helpful her suggestions have been a bit blind to COVID. But as for care and emotional help and support when I asked before, or just in general? Yeah she does a great job about it.

Sounds like she does her best with the LDR. Though you might have some envy that she has a primary nesting partner and you don't.

In general you seem to both want to keep dating each other and look forward to a time when the grad studies are over, you can move, and this LDR thing can go.

However the possessiveness doesn't really arise for us unless we get a crisis feeling as our day to day chat are strong, even when things are boring. We know we like each other.

And in the meanwhile, when you have super stressy days while still stuck doing the LDR? If a stressy day triggers abandonment issues, maybe stop taking it out on each other? Or latching on to each other so tight you both start to drown or go into some circle conversation about who fears losing who the most?

Talk to other people maybe? Find ways to cope with the stress?

You can't make your grad studies finish faster than the go.

Galagirl

 

[tallbosguy]

Her telling you "I cannot promise Closed. I like to swing/do casual sex." That's not transparent enough?

Being open about other potential people coming into the overall relationship -- like if she got a new serious partner or you got a new serious partner.

Hi GG!

I'll toss you an example to understand. When I was in college and more care-free at the tail end of it, I mentioned that I had made out with a number of folks as drunk undergrads do. So when we were discussing how I felt hurt that my sexual needs were more... self satisified... but she was chatting with others she explained nothing really happened, it was chatting for the sake of chatting and didn't mean much. I very plainly said "oh, like when I was a jerk in college making out" to wit she said "I need you to tell me if you were."

I felt like this was a big double standard. As you have very kindly followed along, I seek to liberate myself as much as I can about the casual nature. But it has bothered me that in a way that if I had a one-night off that there would be a disclosure. But as you said, why haven't I put my foot down?

All of you are helping me grow, but with this it was a judgement call - I don't think C has the capacity yet to really deal with it going off of the last casual encounter I have, and her nesting partner has said there won't be help from him to work it through. This is my only critique of the situation from the NP's end. As I had a few years more experience and she was spiraling in the conversation I shelved it to help her cope with understanding that I would be a stable person. It is my fault I haven't resurface it.

And in the meanwhile, when you have super stressy days while still stuck doing the LDR? If a stressy day triggers abandonment issues, maybe stop taking it out on each other? Or latching on to each other so tight you both start to drown or go into some circle conversation about who fears losing who the most?

Talk to other people maybe? Find ways to cope with the stress?

Well I have worked on this. I unfortunately have a few poly friends but they are literally even more on the front line of this pandemic, and one of them I bonded with closely over a medical issue I also went through, so I do not want to burden them. That is why I am here, and though I am still working through this I feel much better already knowing you brave folks have conquered this.

As for other stress copes, I have begun outlining a better life routine with phases to help me. First, as it will help with finding a primary I am kinda overhauling the old grad student button down wardrobe. I am also going to ease into respecting my physical appearance more, as though I am in shape when this lockdown is over I would like to come out looking like a million bucks.

 

[kdt26417]

kdt26417 said:

The thing with the anklet photo, that is a problem that won't go away on its own. You will have to do some work to be okay with her proclivity towards casual sex. And I don't know if any amount of work will be enough. You might always have that strong, painful reaction to her proclivity and the signs of it. I know that she gave you her word she would help you through things, her indication that she would prepare you for things like that photo. It's unfortunate that she failed to do that, but it is also telling that you needed such preparation.

tallbosguy said:

"Can you tell me why it is telling? Are you just referring to that is the source of the problem?"

... and kdt26417 replies:
I am thinking that if you had already made peace with her proclivity towards casual sex, that when you saw the anklet in the photo you would have just shrugged and said, "Oh. Hotwifing. That must be part of her casual sex thing." Instead, seeing that anklet felt like a knife in the gut followed by acid dumped on the wound. I'd say it's pretty clear that you haven't made peace with her thing for casual sex, or maybe part or all of it is jealousy that she is "getting some" and you are not (perhaps because you are more conscientious about Covid).

 

[tallbosguy]

I am thinking that if you had already made peace with her proclivity towards casual sex,

Oh, no sir. I was making grounds before but I am nowhere near there yet. To be honest, I was meta about this, the reason I first posted was to vent a bit, check myself, and see if it was even possible to transverse.

And your last point is definitely a true part of it.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'll toss you an example to understand. When I was in college and more care-free at the tail end of it, I mentioned that I had made out with a number of folks as drunk undergrads do. So when we were discussing how I felt hurt that my sexual needs were more... self satisified... but she was chatting with others she explained nothing really happened, it was chatting for the sake of chatting and didn't mean much. I very plainly said "oh, like when I was a jerk in college making out" to wit she said "I need you to tell me if you were."

So....

You put both things in the same bucket. If you online chat and flirt with people? And if you make out with people physically? It's the same thing to you. Where she puts them in different buckets. Online chatting to flirt is one thing. Actually making out is another.

Plus... you get grumpy that most of the time in LDR your sex life consists of masturbating or sexting with her because your grad studies and work load don't allow you much time to date local people. You envy that she has a nesting partner.

Is that it?

But it has bothered me that in a way that if I had a one-night off that there would be a disclosure. But as you said, why haven't I put my foot down?

Again... you could both update agreements to include what to do about casual sex.

Could agree either side could do what they want whenever they want. And agree to ask each other/tell each other when you DO get a chance to be together in person. "Before you share physical sex again with me? You have to tell if there was someone new since the last time we were physically together. If safer sex practices were used. So I can make informed decisions about my sex health."

An agreement like that allows both some room and some spontaneity while still addressing basic sex health hygiene.

I don't think C has the capacity yet to really deal with it going off of the last casual encounter I have.

How's she going to learn to deal with it if it never comes up?

As I had a few years more experience and she was spiraling in the conversation I shelved it to help her cope with understanding that I would be a stable person. It is my fault I haven't resurface it.

I think you could go ahead and date locally as time/schedule allows, and let C learn to deal with it. I mean, you deal with it in the other direction when she dates whoever casually.

It's not some big secret that you are both non-monogamous.

And she's said she's fine being a secondary if you find a primary. So believe her. Again... keep this easier on you.

Galagirl

 

[tallbosguy]

You envy that she has a nesting partner.

Is that it?

Yeah I do envy her support and their freedom, meanwhile the intensity and body count here has worsened in my end and I get upset that the world isn't fair. This though, as I said, is something I recognize as not connected and a tougher overall mental health issue. In fact this is something that I never had a problem with before, but then again this level of response testing me has never been this intense. Like I said, I know the universe doesn't balance everything, but there is definitely that part of me that goes great... I am trapped between a COVID crisis spot and home with myself. The only other people I see are people in the worst stages of their lives at times, and then they get to go out and eat and drink and flirt. I feel like I am in the trenches of a war and they are back in the capital far away from it all.

I kept my cool but when they had a short lockdown she sort of imploded. Knowing her I tried helping her by reminding her she had been through tougher things and she responds quite well to examples of others. So I pointed out others have gone through tougher and are succeeding, she should take a look at how they coped and it would help. I gave her a few examples of parents adapting, etc. etc. However it does bother me when she mentions how hard it was. I don't want to invalidate feelings, in my field we are trained (and I genuinely believe) that someone having it worse does not preclude a personal feeling of an individual in crisis, but some days I want to tell her how good they have it and that I need a little support too. When I did the other day her ability to respond was tepid, but I didn't know but for her the days have been fully scheduled with life. I can't fault her for that.

An agreement like that allows both some room and some spontaneity while still addressing basic sex health hygiene.

So something I haven't brought up, but she has mentioned (not knowing the term herself) wanting to fluid bond. We didn't go into it too deep as it was a bit of a sexy chat. One meet as well, after drinks, we did have sex uncovered for a short while but I came to a realization and steered away from it. Her husband had mentioned before that he was okay with it but we all wanted to be safe. She had mentioned she wasn't on birth control - the cause of me to steer away from it at that moment. Drunk consent to new things is not consent and neither of us were in a clear enough space to make that call, and it was perhaps the most stupid thing I have done in my life. We have since talked about it and she has said she will be preparing for this as so we don't make the same mistake.

But bonding is very, very special to me. I plan to explain the significance of sharing this and am happy to do so, provided she uses protection with the casual encounters. I worry a little she will see that as controlling but I absolutely do not want to risk anything... as we all know control isn't perfect and a previous partner of mine who also held that bond in high regard and I had a scare. So I am very sensitive to the STI/pregnancy risk that comes with it.

I normally would be really happy with this development, and I think that special connection would go far in allaying my insecurity. I am 90% of the way there, but when I write out my feelings about this future conversation my mind circles back to the "catch up conversations" from before despite what I thought was our understanding. If they are okay with her and I/him sharing with her as I have shown I am clean and safe, I am happy to do so. However if they say they will then do not take the special precautions about it it would be I think an permanent breach of judgement as it would put my body in danger with risky exposures elsewhere. And I need to know if what occurred when we were drinking was because of her closeness with me and is a one-time thing, or if it is a thrill she gets with others and has done before. If it is the later we will need to have a chat about what that means for me and the safety I need to be comfortable with the physical part of it all - then I have to deal with if I can handle that difference in mentality as it feels gross to me.

I think you could go ahead and date locally as time/schedule allows, and let C learn to deal with it. I mean, you deal with it in the other direction when she dates whoever casually.

It's not some big secret that you are both non-monogamous.

And she's said she's fine being a secondary if you find a primary. So believe her. Again... keep this easier on you.

You're absolutely right. Sometimes I feel I am overly supportive of it, which sounds so awful to say, but like a mom/dad pushing their kid on the bike eventually the child needs to get the training wheels off. I shouldn't be doing all the worrying.

However, I let it slide as I was trying to focus on pulling these feelings out of me and putting them down on paper, but she asked what I was up to. At the time I was taking a break from writing and browsing some fashion choices to treat myself to when things start back up and I have some free time, so I told her I was reading about fashion trends and mentioned I saw some things that I thought were really cool! I was in a decent mood; all she asked was "why all the changes?" ] I didn't want to trip up anything bad as I said, I was in a rare decent mood and knew I needed to be a little selfish as those have been rare the past few weeks, so I just said that it was to help rebound my COVID mood (which is true). However, I feel that it will also establish self confidence that the grind has lost and be healthy for me mentally, and that strong loving healthy mentality is good as a person and a partner. But the question did irk me, and because of that I think you are right - she needs to learn to deal with that.

On a positive note, in a few months they will be traveling somewhat close to my town for a few trips. I do not want to hog everyone's time on here with my issues at one time, so I will delve into another internal struggle later and instead see if I can return the kindness everyone has shown me.

 

[Magdlyn]

Polyamory or hotwifing aside, I want to thank you very much for all you are doing on the frontlines of Covid. I really really appreciate your work! I can't imagine how hard it must be. Thank you!