Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc.: Merged Threads, General Discussion

I don't even try to differ between jealousy and envy. They're both just words that mean nearly the same thing. Except maybe envy is associated a little more with wanting something specific that another has, and jealousy is just a generalized dissatisfaction with the circumstances of someone else having things better than you.

I feel like both are occasionally unavoidable, normal human emotions. What defines character is how you deal with them.

When a lover of mine starts taking time out to love others, will I feel wanting? Will it sting? Maybe at first. But my desire to see that person happy and fulfilled trumps any illogical selfish feelings. My desire for a deep, multifaceted, multi-dimensional compersive love outweighs any desire to cling to childish, one-dimensional reactions. I know in my heart that to keep a lover as a pet in a cage does not please either of us, because what you have is a relationship with a set of rules-- the cage itself, not its occupants.

With logic and reassurance, the sting will be fleeting and the sexy, happy, excited vibe coming from the beloved (who is realizing his dreams) will fulfill me to the point where I can easily see myself growing to love his others.

I think it's important both for the envious to keep themselves in check, and for the others in the network to behave in a mature, responsible, sensitive fashion, within reason. Reassurances and making sure everyone gets their needs fairly and reasonably met should be the goal here.
 
Jealousy

My husband is not the jealous type at all. He is very happy that I am happy.

A concern recently came up. He is out of town right now and knows that I am spending the weekend with my boyfriend. He started to realize that he was jealous of me sleeping in the bed with my boyfriend at night, because that was previously something only my husband and I shared. I am trying to find ways of helping him deal with this, but I am at a loss for words. I told him that I love him, that he is amazing, and it doesn't mean I am going to love my boyfriend more, or him less.

Anyone have any advice to help me with this situation? It would be much appreciated.
 
Can we eradicate jealousy from our unconscious?

Hello Everyone,

I am not a native English speaker, therefore I immediately apologise for the possible mistakes you may be finding as you read.

I have been in a homosexual monogamous relationship for 3 years. My partner and I are really open-minded. We do not believe in marriage or monogamy but, despite this, we currently do not have any real intention of practicing polyamory.

He is 9 years older than me, so he has experienced much more sex than I have. For this reason, he happens to talk to me about the fact that we sometimes should think about and analyse what makes us so monogamous. We claim to be open-minded and free from social schemes, but we have never had one night stands or occasional sex.

The problem now is that, even though I do not believe in monogamy, I still cannot get rid of the cultural heritage of the Catholic society I come from. And, even though I try not to show it, I am a very jealous boyfriend. He always says: "If we were not so hypochondriacal and unsociable we would have experienced occasional sex, because I happen to be willing to try."

I denied being interested in one-night stands. The image of him being even only attracted to other men disturbs me deeply. I am generally a very insecure person. I try to fight this feeling through rational thinking, but a deep and unconscious jealousy overtakes me and obsesses my dreams. I've had lots of nightmares about this issue. I know I should probably see a psychologist, but I think that here I could find people who can understand the reason why I want to fight against my unconscious deep jealousy better, and will not only tell me: "a little bit of jealousy is just normal! Do not worry about it!" And I also do not want to prevent myself from experiencing my sexual life differently because of this feeling. I do not want to live the lie of "I love you only and do not feel not attracted to anyone else."
 
Can we eradicate jealousy? No, we cannot. But we can make him our friend, and thereby get to know him well. And in coming to know and understand him well, we will likely find that the fear is insubstantial and unreal -- an illusion, a hoax, a fraud, an imposter.

When we go on the offensive, on the attack, against our feelings and thoughts, we alienate some part of us that wants to be understood, and perhaps transformed, or even healed.

So, make friends with your jealousy. Take him out for lunch or tea. Sit quietly and listen to him, gently speak with him. Often. Ask him what he is afraid of, and why. Get to know him very well and shower him with love and affection, and he may change his mind about you and your life.
 
You're very welcome! May your heart ever open into its natural beauty, joy and freedom. May its glow touch the world with these qualities of the awakening heart.
 
River said:
Can we eradicate jealousy? No. We cannot. But we can make him our friend, and thereby get to know him well. And in coming to know and understand him well, we will likely find that his fear is insubstantial and unreal -- an illusion, a hoax, a fraud, an imposter.
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I like it that jealousy is a "he" in your post, River, since so often people in popular culture ascribe it to women.

I'm sure this point has already been brought up countless times, but there's a flipside to the jealous person. I'm not inclined toward jealousy and have found my lack of it to be an issue even in poly relationships. Just as we work toward understanding jealous feelings, we also need to work on understanding our need for them. That is, why we might feel upset if our SO *isn't* acting jealous. We're also conditioned to interpret jealousy as a way of showing how much we care for the other person, as twisted as that is.
 
Chimera said:
Just as we work toward understanding jealous feelings, we also need to work on understanding our need for them. That is, why we might feel upset if our SO *isn't* acting jealous. We're also conditioned to interpret jealousy as a way of showing how much we care for the other person, as twisted as that is.
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This is a very good and valuable point! I was just thinking that same thought while making breakfast. Indeed, probably most people in our culture/s conceive the complete absence of jealousy toward their beloved as a lack of genuine love! We're talking about a radically differing paradigm here, and one that most people are probably quite clueless about. To monogamous people, very often, we poly folk are conceived as shallow, empty, bankrupt, inauthentic, lacking in real love. We're thought to be failures, selfish, broken people.

But the poly experience has done nothing but show me how big and wide my authentic heart is. I'm experiencing poly as pure joy and love. Sometimes, my joy almost hurts, it is so intense. And the joy is not focussed on any one person, but focussed on my own natural, awakening heart. Ultimately, I love everyone, everything. Discovering this in a bigger way each day overspills me with love and joy.
 
RenegadeOfFunk said:
My husband is not the jealous type at all. He is very happy that I am happy. He is out of town right now and knows that I am spending the weekend with my boyfriend. He started to realize that he is jealous of me sleeping in the bed with my boyfriend at night because that was previously something only my husband and I shared. I am trying to find ways of helping him deal with this, but I am at a loss for words. I told him that I love him and that he is amazing and it doesn't mean I am going to love my boyfriend more or my husband less.
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I realize this is an old message, but I had some thoughts on it anyway. LOL

I think sometimes we aren't jealous in theory, or at all, until something comes up and we realize it bothers us. There are a lot of ways to deal with it, but seeing as it just came up right now and you two are long distance, perhaps you can find ways to get around it for now, and then talk about it when you're together and figure out where the jealousy is coming from, and if or how you can both deal with it.

Some people have certain things that they retain as just "theirs," whether that be their family bed, or pet names, or whatever. Some don't. That's something you'd need to decide with your husband. Maybe, for now, sleeping together in the family bed is something you don't do. Maybe you never do, or maybe after a while your husband will realize it doesn't bother him.

I think while we all know intellectually some things "shouldn't" bother us, sometimes they do, and I don't see anything wrong with taking something off the table for a bit so that someone can work through whatever it is and adjust. You have been reassuring him, and that's fabulous. But maybe taking this one issue off the table briefly will be more reassuring to him. Assuring him that you take his feelings into consideration and won't just do what you want regardless of how he feels. From experience, doing this one thing can go MILES towards making someone feel reassured that their feelings are important and makes it easier to work through them and let them go.

I know for myself, if I think that, no matter what, my hubs will do whatever he wants, I feel less valued, less cared for, and in the end it makes it harder for me to feel secure in our relationship enough to work through tough feelings.

Of course, this only works when the partner is being honest, open and really trying to work through things, and not using their feelings as a weapon to get you to feel bad (which I'm assuming isn't the case here).
 
Tell me this gets easier

My husband and I are each seeing someone right now, and those people are also seeing others. Right now I'm having a hard time of it.

My husband wants to start dating a second person, and it's a lot more difficult for me to accept than I'd thought. I am very much an introvert, shy around new people, and have just begun to get very comfortable with my boyfriend. My husband, his girlfriend, and my boyfriend are all much more outgoing/gregarious people, and I'm just... not. I rarely make the sort of deep connection that makes me want to date someone. I have been feeling left out and lonely recently. Tonight, my husband is out with his girlfriend and I'm just sad. Not jealous, exactly. I really like her and am glad that she makes him happy, but I feel sort of unimportant and alone.

I'm also feeling insecure about my relationship with my boyfriend. He recently broke things off with another person, and to be honest, I would've expected him to be having that conversation with me. He is very sweet, but sometimes I just don't understand what he sees in me.

My husband is amazing and very attentive to our relationship and my feelings, but I can't help feeling this way. I want to be happier. I want to see things in a positive light. But right now I'm just sad and lonely. This isn't rational at all, and I feel like I can't talk to anyone about it. I've never really felt like this before.

Help?
 
It seems like what you're really feeling is afraid that you are not as loveable or important as the other folks in your situation, rather than jealous per se, because, as you say, you like your husband's girlfriend.

First of all, in my opinion, I am sure that there are things your boyfriend and husband see in you, since they are with you, and you seem like a smart kind person, even from this one post, so I'm sure that there are plenty of things about you to love.

My suggestion is to look at your feelings toward yourself, regardless of how the others in your life are treating you or behaving toward you. Do you like yourself? What talents do you have? What have you accomplished? Then look at yourself in regards to relationships. What do you bring to the table? What sorts of things are you good at that your partners appreciate? Maybe finding where you fit in with yourself, and then where you fit in with your partners will help you see your role in your group.

I don't know you, but I do know that in most poly relationships that work, everyone has a good role to play, and each person contributes a part that makes the whole. Just by reading your post I pick up that you're thoughtful, caring and smart! There was nothing hateful or mean in what you said; it just seems like you're being honest about your feelings, and that's a step in the right direction.
 
Jealousy sucks. Just when I thought I was getting a handle on it, some new situation triggers it. My boyfriend has two full-time mates with whom I get along wonderfully. However, he's currently on a little road trip with his male partner and they're planning on being physical with an online friend of his partner, a young kinky-minded female.

I really didn't like how I felt when I learned of the trip, insecure and worried. I wondered if she'd be more fun than me, or better in bed. He assured me it was only going to be sex. He said has no romantic feelings for her and that I shouldn't worry. He even offered not to go if it made me uncomfortable. But in the end, I told him to go forth, have fun and that I trusted in his love. Now I'm focusing on not thinking about it. Just looking forward to his return.
 
Thank you for your thoughtful responses; I appreciate getting others' perspectives on situations like this. I haven't been feeling loveable or important. This has only been exacerbated by the conversation I had with my boyfriend last night, after not seeing him for two weeks (a story for another time). Now I'm just sad and upset. I'm not sure that things with my boyfriend are going to work out, and I'm kind of afraid of that, as my husband is dating one person and about to start seeing another. I've been feeling lonely anyway, and this isn't helping.
 
I've been using the "standard poly definitions" of jealousy vs envy for quite some time:
jealousy = fear of losing something you have
envy = wanting what someone else has

But I just found an old forum post where someone dragged up a dictionary definition. Usually I pooh-pooh dictionary definitions when applied to poly stuffs, but in this case, I felt like reopening a discussion on it, since "jealousy" is a common human emotion and it's helpful if everyone means the same thing when they use those words.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jealousy (similar to m-w also)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/envy
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insecurity

Wikipedia, however, seems to use the poly-definitions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jealousy

thesaurus.com has this interesting note: "Jealousy is reflective of a person's feelings or attitudes toward another person, whereas envy expresses a person's feelings or attitudes toward another person's advantages or accomplishments; jealousy pertains to emotional rivalry while envy is resentment of a more fortunate person"

And that's really more in line with what I understood to be the difference before I started reading up on poly stuffs.
envy = Mmm, that guy has ice cream. I wish I had ice cream.
jealousy = That bitch has ice cream.
fear of loss = That dog is eying up my ice cream. I think he's going to try and steal it.
insecurity = I don't deserve this ice cream and I sure hope no one catches on or else they'll take away my ice cream.

While I fully agree that jealousy usually stems from insecurity, or a fear of loss, rather than simply wanting what someone else has and hating them for it, I think I no longer agree that they're one and the same thing.

Thoughts?
 
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My thoughts

My first inclination is to go with the dictionary definition, and then say outright "fear of loss" when that's what I mean.

After all, dictionaries have been sources of word meanings for much longer than wikipedia. There's actually no source given for wiki's definition, and it's really just that no one seems to have contested it.

Furthermore, wikipedia's definition is actually inconsistent with its own examples:
If one worker receives positive feedback from the boss while the other employee feels like they deserved that, positive feedback jealousy can arise.
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Well, if another worker received positive feedback that the other "feels like they deserved" then they really aren't "losing" anything because they didn't have that positive feedback in the first place. They keep using this "lose services" phrase, and really stretches the phrasing to actually fit "loss" into the picture, e.g.
One partner can feel the emotion of jealousy arise if the other partner is paying more attention or time with someone else. To lose services from one partner and have their attention directed towards someone else does not have to be in a romantic way.
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This seems inconsistent with what we usually think of as romantic jealousy. For example, if your partner is out of town on business and he has a romantic date while he's there, some people would feel jealous of the other woman. But according to the "fear of loss" model, if the partner is already out of town then what are you losing? Isn't it more accurate to say you're envious of the other woman? And in the case of jealousy, you direct your emotions at her rather than the business that actually took your partner out of town? If she wasn't in the picture and the "date" was a dinner with a client, then few people would describe the longing for your partner as jealousy, even though the loss is identical in either situation.
 
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thesaurus.com

If you stick with the above-mentioned definition of jealousy from thesaurus.com, then jealousy would not so much say "That bitch has ice cream" as "That bitch has good looks, better than how I look."
 
SchrodingersCat said:
This seems inconsistent with what we usually think of as romantic jealousy. For example, if your partner is out of town on business and he has a romantic date while he's there, some people would feel jealous of the other woman. But according to the "fear of loss" model, if the partner is already out of town then what are you losing? Isn't it more accurate to say you're envious of the other woman? And in the case of jealousy, you direct your emotions at her rather than the business that actually took your partner out of town? If she wasn't in the picture and the "date" was a dinner with a client, then few people would describe the longing for your partner as jealousy, even though the loss is identical in either situation.
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The way I see it, if someone's out of town, you see them as returning. If they're on a romantic date, you could fear the loss of their return (running off to join the circus).

My thought is that one reason people get married (only one, among thousands) is to stop that fear of loss. "I've married this person. It's forever. I never have to fear loss of this person." I'm not saying it's accurate, I'm not saying it's healthy. I'm saying I think it's common. [Disclaimer: I've never been married.]
 
NovemberRain said:
My thought is that one reason people get married (only one, among thousands) is to stop that fear of loss. "I've married this person. It's forever. I never have to fear loss of this person." I'm not saying it's accurate. I'm not saying it's healthy. I'm saying it's common.
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I'm sure there's an element of truth to that. Despite the skyrocketing divorce rate, everyone goes into it expecting their own marriage to be "different." The problem is when people think that marriage will be a solution to anything, with the exception of not having your own health insurance.
 
Jealousy as a social construct

This question has hosted a wrestling match between me and my mind for some time now.

When I first ventured into polyamory (without knowing that there was a word for it), I felt pangs of emotional discomfort whenever one of my partners spent time with another guy, sexually or otherwise. Over time, those pangs fizzled out. I grew more confident that we're all unique and that interests ebb and flow.

So that got me thinking: This confidence... I feel like I was born with it, with the understanding, not that I had to develop it. I was developed out of it.

My wavering conclusion is that in our purest of forms, jealousy (edit: in the context of intimate relationships) is non-existent. There is no shortage of love or resources because 'possession' isn't a part of our natural lexicon.

What do you think?
 
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