Just LR

I know your time is very limited and you are very busy, but exercise and meditation have done wonders for me whenever I start to get really frustrated and angry. Learning to forgive myself for my own mistakes was a long road, and one that I couldn't approach like I had every other, by internally screaming at myself until I walked the way I wanted to force myself to go. I had to learn to be as compassionate and patienctwith myself as I was with everyone else.

It might help to appeal to your logical self at a meta-level here. Is the anger serving a purpose? It might. If it does, perhaps try to only use it to that end, rather than using it as your general-purpose tool. If it doesn't, maybe that realization will help it to dissipate somewhat.
 
Temporary crown put in today. Mouth is numb. Lol. At least my fingers aren't.
Permanent one will go in mid January.
 
Yeah, dental stuff is a pain. But it's better than letting it wait til it's a hopeless case, ya know?


Today I'm trying not to ruminate on how frustrated I am.

Sunday is Panther's birthday. Maca's take on it is that I should be home because he's off work that day, "and thus available and soon will be gone." He leaves sometime between the 15th of January and the 1st of February.

I think that's bullshit.

*sigh*

I'm so tired of arguing over shit that we wouldn't be arguing about if the tables were turned.
 
January 15 is a ways away and there's not a lot of relationship left with Maca to save. My vote is to at least pay Panther a visit on his birthday, but maybe Maca will pitch such a fit that it won't be worth it for anyone. :(
 
It is a ways away. He's already insisted that if/when I am going to stay in the house, Panther isn't allowed to visit here. If I want to see him, I have to go see him elsewhere.

On Dec 16th, the grandkids will come stay with us until the 29th. Because I traded the minivan for a small Prius, I can't go anywhere during that time. I won't have enough seats for all of the kids. Three are in car seats.

On the 29th we get on a plane to Arizona until January 12th. Classes start January 12th also. I'm thinking, DAMN. What an effective way to say "fuck you!" by creating a scenario where I can't see Panther at all for well over a month, and then, because Maca is leaving, I will only be able to see him if I drive BACK into town after I come home from school to pick up the kids in the afternoons. (He lives in town). Because no one will be here to pick them up after school.

Um... wow. Great way to show that you are supportive of me, my needs, and my rights. That isn't even addressing the fact that it's Panthers birthday and those come ONE TIME A YEAR.

But for me to say I want to go is selfish, because "if I cared," I would "want to spend every possible moment" with Maca before he leaves, because he's leaving "soon."

Yeah, I love you. No, I don't like the self-centered, selfish, manipulative way you try to prove that you are "number one." Furthermore, it doesn't help you rate number one. It makes you look like an ass, not only to me, but to our friends and our family, as well as my friends and other love(s).

*sigh*
 
Spending one day with Panther still leaves plenty of time to spend with Maca. If he can't stand to let Panther have one measly day, then I'd say he's being quite stingy.

Since you and Maca are essentially breaking up, he doesn't have any rightful claim on your time. Perhaps his behavior now is a sign of whether things can be patched up with him in the future.

It seems like he's waging a power struggle with Panther, perhaps thinking if he can drive Panther out of your life, then things will return to "normal" (read: a nice normal monogamous life). Which isn't a happy thought and I'm sorry to say it. I could be wrong.
 
What is it you want to do? What are the possible consequences you are worried about if you take that course?
 
I'm going to go to town and spend the day with Panther. I'm leaving in 10 minutes. I was wanting to be able to go out with him and our friends this evening, but because it's in town and we would be going to the bars, I wanted to be free to spend the night in town so that I didn't have to drive. But it's not worth the effort.

I have already been informed by Maca that I "broke the boundaries" by ASKING, which is a crock of shit. There's never been a boundary that we couldn't ask for ANYTHING, ever. He's just being an ass. EVEN IF HE WANTED TO SAY NO, there's nothing about ASKING that breaks the boundaries.

I didn't make a big fight. I asked once. He flew off the handle and I dropped the topic.

At any rate, I am going to town and I will be home by midnight, stone-cold sober.

The part that pisses me off isn't the details. Drink, don't drink, who cares? The part that pisses me off is that he can't see past his own shit to realize that the reason there's so much distance and conflict between us is because he refuses to accept me for who I am.

He thinks I should follow the "appropriate" rules for the ROLE of "wife," as defined by him, and that any inch he gives outside of that should be something I see as an amazing gift of him compromising for me.

That's bullshit.

His "rules" are restrictive and controlling my monogamous standards.
They are arguably examples of "abusive relationship" warning signs.

I have shown him "bill of rights" lists for individuals and "in relationships," and shown him how they are SO DAMN similar to the bill of rights listed in "More than Two" and he thinks it's all a crock of shit.

He told me last night I was a hypocrite because I had ASKED about staying the night, "when we agreed years ago that we would not spend nights apart." I told him that wasn't being a hypocrite to ASK for something, EVEN IF IT WAS AGREED TO IN THE PAST THAT WE WOULDN'T DO IT.
I went on to say that just because I compromised in an effort to heal his insecurities in the past doesn't mean that I personally believed it was the right choice LONG TERM (which I don't). It means I was trying to be CONSIDERATE and allow him time to work through his feelings.

But he hasn't. It's been 16 years of his insecurities controlling our lives, 5 of those since I came out to him as poly.

He accused me of "turning it all around on him." He swears I "Never compromise for him." I can only raise my eyebrow. SERIOUSLY?!?!?! I'm fucking compromising by COMING HOME tonight.

I compromised by agreeing to no PDA with other partners. (It bugs the hell out of me when he refuses to show PDA to other partners in front of me, because it strikes me as being extraordinarily inconsiderate of THEIR feelings.)

I compromised by agreeing to be a stay-at-home mom, instead of pursuing my career, because his son (not OUR son, his son) needed more care than was available if I weren't home.

I compromised by not going into the carpenters apprenticeship, because HE doesn't want a wife who works construction.

I'm not saying he's never compromised. But damn. Be realistic. Don't fucking accuse me of "never" doing something when I do it regularly TOO. It's asinine.

He's hellbent on painting me as a fucking psycho manipulative bitch, so he can feel like it's "all my fault" that our relationship is falling to pieces. If I were just "normal, fall into line, be a real wife, stop trying to have my cake and eat it too," then things would be fine.

*sigh*
 
*HUGS*

I've had that "compromise" word thrown at me a lot since I started setting my own boundaries and living with autonomy. "Selfish" is another one I've heard a lot.

There's no logic to it when someone wants what they wants and stops seeing their partner as a separate person from themselves and only as something to please them.

Are you still attempting to pursue a romantic/sexual relationship with Maca? If the answer is no, it seems like many of these arguments have passed their expiration date. If you are making a break, no need to argue over who is compromising for the other, because this isn't required anymore. You each get to pursue your happiness away from each other. He for a perfect "wife" role and you for your autonomy.
 
Not that I'm going to hijack your thread LR - but yeah. That.

I'm giving clear information about what I need, what I want, and what I'm able to offer.

And I've been accused of only wanting what's best for ME, not what's best for US.

But what he sees is what's best for US isn't what's best for ME and in the end it would damage US anyhow.

So yeah.

Selfish and unreasonable because we won't meet their expectation of what we *should* be doing.

(((HUGS)))
 
I hope that you are able to get your own place soon and start to be able to make arrangements for yourself. I don't understand why - if you and Maca are going your separate ways - there are boundaries between you to be broken? Maybe you need to start reminding Maca that you aren't a partnership any longer and that therefore there are no more boundaries between you. You may well have boundaries between yourselves and children needing care or between yourselves and pets needing care but between each other, none exist any longer.


So long as kids and pets are cared for and work is taken care of, each of you is free to do what you wish. Sounds to me like Maca needs to adjust to treating you like a co-parent rather than like a partner. I'm sure that both of you will be happier once he is managing to do that.
 
Re:
"Maybe you need to start reminding Maca that you aren't a partnership any longer and that therefore there are no more boundaries between you."
Click to expand...

Uh yep.

Re:
"So long as kids and pets are cared for and work is taken care of, each of you is free to do what you wish."
Click to expand...

Uh yep.

Come on, Maca's not just being crazy and unreasonable, he's being silly. If he wants to re-start a romantic relationship with you, his first step needs to be learning to accept your polyamorous proclivities. That's not your job, it's his.

[SMH] I agree with what you and the others have said. You're getting screwed (in a bad way). :(
 
The issue is that he says he wants to rebuild a relationship. BUT he won't sit down and start from SCRATCH. He keeps wanting to "start negotiating" from some other point prior to him saying he wanted a divorce.

It's far too complicated to detail. His mind changes every couple of days.

I've stuck by my stance that--

Yes, I love you.
I am poly. That won't change.
I would like to work on building a new relationship, STARTING with using the Bill of Rights that is laid out so neatly in the More Than Two book as a platform.

He waffles back and forth.
I'm still looking for work.
I'm still signed up for classes starting in January.

Mostly I'm just trying to hold everything else steady for the kids and me, while he runs around like a chicken with its head cut off freaking the hell out over every single thing he can possibly find to freak out about and misconstrue.

It's frustrating to watch. But it's also sad to watch. I know what it's like to be irrationally filled with anxiety and depression. I know what it's like to be desperate for the pain and anxiety to stop so I can think.

Watching someone else do it sucks. But watching someone do it to themselves sucks harder. AND watching someone do it to themselves while simultaneously insisting that it is actually you doing it to them sucks even more.
 
He wants to go through all the "who did what wrong and when" details in negotiations. So, it's not "fair" for me to want to include the right for overnights in negotiating now, because 3 years ago, I agreed to no overnights with other partners while we were both here. It's not "fair" for me to want to drop restrictions and boundaries that keep other relationships from being allowed to grow and develop at their own pace to be whatever it is that they will be, because in the past I agreed to his restrictions that made him *FEEL* primary, even though I have always been quite vocal about how I thought that primary/secondary hierarchies were disrespectful and fucked up.
 
Okay, it's fair enough for Maca to accuse you of "changing the rules" compared to what they used to be. But didn't he always know you didn't care too much for those rules? and that you were always going to want to change them eventually?

Well, "eventually" has arrived. Maca has his boundaries; you have yours. Maybe the two of you just aren't compatible anymore; maybe you never really were compatible. That's nobody's fault, but it's the reality that's come to a head now. It is, in fact, the reason why your current status is "broken up." Who says you and Maca can get back together again? Maybe you can't.

If you can, it can only happen with overnight restrictions and other restrictions lifted from your poly relationships. That part of the bargain is non-negotiable. The sooner he makes his peace with that, the sooner he'll know whether there's any point in negotiating at all.

I get it; Maca is hard-wired for monogamy, and that's not a crime. But being hard-wired for polyamory isn't a crime either, so him hurling names at you like "hypocrite" is futile and disingenuous. You've already figured out that you're poly and it's gonna stay that way. Now he needs to figure out whether he can make peace with that. Right now it doesn't look like he can, but we'll see what the future holds I guess.

Pretty rotten stuff for you to have to deal with in any case.
 
He doesn't believe he's hardwired for monogamy. One of the digs he keeps throwing out there is that he "hopes" I won't be hurt when he is in an open relationship with someone new, because, as he sees it, the problem isn't being poly, the problem is that I don't do it 'his way' because he believes in hierarchies and couple privilege.

Today he told me point blank that he agrees that people shouldn't be treated as dispensable or unworthy, BUT he believes strongly in couple privilege and hierarchy.

And I believe that disrespecting individual people to protect a relationship (which isn't a person, it's a contract) is fucked up.
 
Hmmm.

I can understand applying a hierarchy to a poly partner in the beginning; after all, the established couple has so much history and shared life. But sooner or later the new partner has invested enough sweat equity into the relationship that they've earned equal status. I think most polyamorists would agree with me, but some probably wouldn't. [shrug] It's a difference of opinion, that's all.

Point remains, you and Maca are stuck on a point on which you probably can't get unstuck. He absolutely insists on perpetual hierarchy, and I'm pretty sure there's no way you'll ever agree with him on that. Without agreement on that point, I think you are faced with a deal breaker. At least I don't see how those opposing points can function harmoniously -- not once you obtain an additional partner.

I'd love to be wrong, but logic seems to dictate that you and Maca can't remain partners. Co-parents maybe, but not romantic partners (much less spouses). I suppose a truth like that is hard to digest; hence Maca is going through the five stages of grief (Kübler-Ross model): denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Acceptance aside I think we're seeing all five, often more than one at a time.
 
My STBX husband is much the same way. He insisted for a long time during our breakup that he would continue to be poly, but some of his more recent actions might suggest otherwise. I do remember him telling me that he would be open to a poly relationship but it wouldn't be absolutely necessary and he wouldn't be seeking it out specifically.

What is funny is he has a pretty long history of cheating. And similarly to Maca, he puts many many rules and restrictions on me, to the point where I was having to effectively go above and beyond our agreements or deal with him making last minute changes and demands on the spot in order to keep the peace. Yet he flagrantly broke one of our agreements and did lots of inconsiderate things with his dates that I never would have done to him. Yet I was the one disrespecting him because I wasn't catering to his feelings.

What I had to eventually do was find a point to keep drilling at whenever he would pretend like our relationship could work out. I would usually ask, "Are you okay with having me as a partner if I won't consider you my primary and will not ask your permission for any activities in future relationships?" The answer was always no, and I was able to tell him from that point that there was no point in discussing getting back together unless his answer changed to yes. Had to do it a few times, but it started to work and save me a lot of headaches and arguing.
 
Funny you mention the grief stages again, Kevin, because I was absolutely seeing myself going through them. But you are right. He is zinging around in them. Several people have asked me recently if he may be bipolar. I don't think so. I think it's what you just noted, zinging around out of control, probably unaware, in the grief stages.

Musical, I keep reminding him what my bottom-line "hard limits" are. It's infuriating him (frustrating me to repeat myself) but at the same time it means forcing it back to the main point of contention, instead of letting him try to sweep it under the carpet for another five years.

I went to town for Panther's bday. We had a freaking awesome day. Maca's bs when I got home was INFURIATING, but I'm choosing not to focus on that. The day was awesome.

Today has been emotional, facing the reality that, as of tomorrow, I will be the full-time caretaker of two toddlers, thus effectively tying me down to the house in isolation until the 29th. But I talked to GG. He said he would babysit a couple times so I can take a break and get away. It will undoubtedly piss Maca off. It always does when I leave and there are kids here to be taken care of. But I will deal with that as it comes.

I got my class schedule dealt with for January & my books ordered.

One more day down.
 
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