Lets start a revolution

disillusioned

New member
Wow.

Disillusioned, I think you are failing to fully realize that people have free will. Yes, most "civilized" cultures encourage monogamy and often present it as the only option.... but we are not robots.

GREAT! Exactly! But this is where you don't "get it", that's the last piece of the puzzle:

When you are presented with one option, you become a robot, if you want it or not. Monogamy is not presented as a "possibility", one of many. It is presented as the "default". As YOU said it - THE ONLY OPTION.

That's what Hegemony is all about, when control is achieved through consensus, not force, when an opinion or an option becomes common knowledge which is accepted a priori.

Then the discussion automatically becomes to be "why are some people not monogamous?" rather than "are we monogamous?" Our frames of reference are hijacked by the Hegemonic ruling consciousness.

A couple I know just got married, partly so they could cut their medical payments by half. How many people get married so they can get a mortgage? For legal status?

How many times was I asked: "How long are you together? What?! 3 years / 4 years / 7 years / 9 years??? Why aren't you married!?!?!"

ANY BUSTARDS AROUND HERE? How do you feel like being called A BUSTARD?

There are so many unhappily married couples out there, who constantly fight, who rarely sleep together, who can't even remember that once they used to love each other... - yet they still stay together because of 1001 reasons - and that is considered NORMAL.

Then there is another couple, who is happy and deeply in love, but they have an open relationship or they swing together.... how would most people call them?

FREAKS !!!!

FREAKS FREAKS FREAKS !

Swingers, open relationships, poly = "fringe" "underground" "crazy" "sick" "a lifestyle".

But Marriage? = AN INSTITUTION !!!! It is the INSTITUTION of marriage, given to us by none other than almighty God himself!

Most people will not consider doing anything which isn't perceived as "normal" because, god forbid, "what would people say??"

Why won't you use your REAL NAMES? Why won't you use your REAL PHOTOS?

Do you understand in how many different and complex ways you are controlled and indoctrinated towards a certain POV? Cultural, social, legal, conceptual, lingual !! Language itself controls you, from within!

So, do you REALLY have free will? Or is your free will just an illusion?

Lets step back from confusing philosophical talk... I will give an example - you walk into a store. The sales person tells you: "Hi! You are free to choose to buy anything you like!" Then you walk around the store but the only thing they sell is bottles of Diet Pepsi. They are everywhere. Thousands of them. You walk around for hours, all you see is Pepsi Pepsi Pepsi. Finally, if you are lucky, you discover that in the back of the store there is a special shelf - most people miss it for a lifetime! The shelf has a sign that says "products for special people" and it has a bunch of warnings all around it - enough warnings to keep away most people. On that shelf you find Coca Cola, Sprite... and more variations of Diet Pepsi.

Free will ? I think not.


*** SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS! ON WITH THE REVOLUTION! LOVERS OF THE WORLD - UNITE ! ***


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_philosophy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconstruction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault


And with that - I have rest my case.

The defense rests, your honor.

(trying to be funny and dramatic, I hope some of you appreciate it)
 
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Penny

New member
Disillusioned, we all know this stuff. You are coming across as extremely condescending.

You are in a forum full of people predisposed to be sympathetic to your point of view, but are alienating all of them. They tell you that this is because of your tone.

Instead of reexamining your approach, you proceed as before and claim that we are all wrong about that.

Do you see how this might be frustrating for the rest of us?

You need to dial it back.
 

NeonKaos

Custodian
Disillusioned, we all know this stuff. You are coming across as extremely condescending.


You need to dial it back.

He reminds me of someone who bursts into a biker bar in full leather regalia breaking bottles over people's heads and yelling about revolution when all the people in the bar want to do is drink and cuss and ride.
 

PBK

New member
LOL I just read thi;)s whole thread, I think he is just high strung and that is why he can't see what everyone is telling him. Maybe has been drinking to much coffee he did say that he was at a coffee shop. I just found this site and love it so far.
 

disillusioned

New member
Disillusioned, we all know this stuff. You are coming across as extremely condescending.

Sorry, I had to change the answer to this.

Give me a break. We started with "everybody is different" went on to "mono/poly/gay are different choices", and ended up with the fact that people have no free will.

I'm sorry that you did not benefit from this thread. I hope that someone else did. To me this was an interesting and dialectic debate.
 
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NeonKaos

Custodian
Oppps... I didn't know Power/Knowledge, Postmodern Philosophy and Deconstructionism is common knowledge!

Sorry.

That's it right there. You're just way too special and advanced for us to fully grasp everything you could possibly come up with. Even those of us who are omnipotent are not necessarily omniscient, and you certainly put ME in my place when you demonstrated to everyone that you do speak Star Trek, or are at least able to use Google to come up with the same Wiki page I got when I googled for the quotes that i wanted to use, but I digress.

tl;dr - Obviously we should have known better than to mess with u.
 

FlameKat

New member
Sorry, I had to change the answer to this.

Give me a break. We started with "everybody is different" went on to "mono/poly/gay are different choices", and ended up with the fact that people have no free will.

I'm sorry that you did not benefit from this thread. I hope that someone else did. To me this was an interesting and dialectic debate.
Bolding added by me...

This was a debate?? I thought debates had an opposing side?

To me it came across as a rant... a tirade... with the audience trying to tell you that we, in general and to a point, agreed with most stuff and/or knew it already... and could ya please stop yelling at us about it cos we already talked about it and reached our own individual conclusions about it....

it also came across as someone wanting to have their ego stroked and frankly your ego could have been boosted much more quickly and without irritating quite a number of people had you gone and had a quick wank in front of the mirror or maybe while staring at your awards... either way it would have been more productive.
 
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MeeraReed

Active member
Hi everyone,

I have to say I'm kind of shocked at the responses Disillusioned has gotten here. I'm surprised especially at the reactions from NYCIndie, Redpepper, and Mono--I've been reading on this site for a few months now, you three always post such awesome, insightful and supportive comments.

I think, frankly, that you guys misunderstood Disillusioned's originally post, and then you picked at him until he got super-defensive. Then you accused him of trollishness and flaming. [Maybe I missed some deleted posts, though.]

Anyway, I'm emerging from lurker status to defend Disillusioned.

I'm newly poly-curious, unsure if the label "poly" fits me, but I've been doing a lot of research in the last six months and have joined a number of poly groups and forums. I've been reading the "New to Polyamory" threads here for a number of months now.

I've really learned a lot from people's personal stories. (NYCIndie's in particular really resonated with me. Thanks for sharing!)

However, the first post I have encountered here that really captured exactly how I feel was Disillusioned's original "Let's start a revolution" post. When I read it, I immediately thought, Yes, that's exactly how I feel!

I, too, read "Sex at Dawn" and was totally blown away by the authors' theory. Finally, I felt like I was no longer different for wanting what I want.

I don't think you guys were being fair to jump all over Disillusioned for wanting to start a revolution based on only one book. "Sex at Dawn" is a truly revolutionary book (although I don't quite agree with everything the authors argue). I have read/studied extensively in anthropology, gender & culture studies, women's studies, feminism, psychology and animal biology, and I have NEVER seen the argument in "Sex at Dawn" articulated anywhere else.

For me, my experience reading "Sex at Dawn" felt comparable to that of women who read Betty Friedan's "The Feminine Mystique" in the 1960s. That's a case where "just one book" sparked a social revolution.

I do NOT think Disillusioned was trying to tell anyone on this list that it's wrong to feel you are monogamous. He was just trying to generate a spirit of activism to tackle our society's mono-centric culture.

I, too, would really like to shatter "the myth of monogamy." Of course plenty of people are happy being monogamous. But plenty of people also aren't--and those people (like ME) have ALMOST NOWHERE to turn for support--except "alternative lifestyle" support groups and forums like this one--because there is NO mainstream acceptance of non-monogamy.

What I liked about "Sex at Dawn" is that it argues that non-monogamy is (biologically at least) the default for humans in general. And therefore, non-monogamy need not be viewed as an alternative or fringe option.

Of course, like NYCIndie, I don't believe in biological determinism (I too am female and have never felt the biological drive to have a child). However, biological determinism is not the point of "Sex at Dawn."

"Sex at Dawn" has tons of relevant stuff for the poly community, and for other forms of non-monogamy (i.e. swinging). For example, the authors suggest that sexual jealousy is a cultural construct (rather than a natural, biological feeling as it usually understood). That's good news, right? Because it means we can un-construct jealousy and overcome it.

The example someone posted about the polygynous women of Bali becoming jealous only after encountering Western soap operas illustrates what I mean about jealousy as a cultural construct.

Also, just to clarify someone's comment: there's nothing in "Sex at Dawn" to suggest that humans just want sex without love/emotions/friendship. The main argument is that humans evolved to have multiple partners, and that these partners all supported one another emotionally and economically.

Anyway, I do think all the anger at Disillusioned is misplaced. (I really didn't see anything to make you lose a year of your life, Redpepper!)

I do understand that we have a basic disagreement going on here: most people in the poly community (or on this forum, or on this thread, or whatever) have arrived at an understanding that some people are poly and some are mono and that everyone has a different path to happiness/ sex/ relationships, etc. Well, that's true, obviously.

But what I (and Disillusioned) disagree with the rest of you about is that we'd like to see a greater social movement promoting non-monogamy as a viable lifestyle, and that we'd like to shatter the myth that monogamy is the only way. Because I really do believe that our culture is perpetuating a lie.

I guess I'm sort of puzzled as to why the poly community doesn't seem to want to advocate greater social action? (And maybe I'm not really "poly," then?)

An example of what I mean: over the last 30 years or so, the gay community [not that there's one community...maybe I mean the gay rights movement] has done an excellent job of changing our society [I'm American, I guess I'm mostly talking about American society] so that being gay is now accepted as a norm. (Except in very conservative subcultures). It's no longer assumed that everyone is not gay, or that you have an alternative lifestyle if you are gay. Therapists accept that there is nothing wrong with you if you are gay.

I would like to see that same acceptance for non-monogamous folks someday. (Right now, I can't even find a therapist who doesn't think I have major issues just because I don't want to be with one person forever!)

I'll post my personal story on this forum soon (when I have time) so you can see where I'm coming from.

I have a lot more to say on this, but I have to go walk my adorable dog.

I'm enjoying this thread a lot--thank you to everyone who's been posting.
 

NeonKaos

Custodian
Disillusioned wasn't yelled at for wanting to start a revolution. He was yelled at for "Hey I have a degree in this and I won every award when I was an undergraduate so you guys better listen up because I'm right". Then he called everyone "emotional and irrational" and became petulant after he ordered the moderators to close "his" thread and they refused.

So, "Yawn" is about right.
 

River

Active member
Hi everyone,

I have to say I'm kind of shocked at the responses ....

Thank you, MeeraReed, for this important and valuable (and well studied) contribution to this discussion (meaning, the whole topic as discussed throughout the forums here).:)
 
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River

Active member
Disillusioned wasn't yelled at for ....

Thank you, NeonKaos, for this important and valuable (and well studied) contribution to this discussion (meaning, the whole topic as discussed throughout the forums here).

It is good to discuss ideas openly and honestly -- and also with respect and without arrogant disregard for others.
 

MindfulAgony

New member

River

Active member

River

Active member
Where I do agree with Dissillusioned is when he says -- paraphrasing -- that to have a social norm and expectation that seeks to impose monogamy on everyone causes harm. It really is time for us to call "bullshit" on enforced monogamy -- enforced with shame, guilt, fear, etc....

It is also harmful to enforce heterosexuality in this way, as Dissillusioned said.

I'm all for a "revolution" that calls bullshit on harming people "for their own good," and I too will defend Dissillusioned on this point. A radical revision of these norms IS called for, and urgent.

Otherwise, I agree that Disillusioned could benefit from choosing his words with more care and respect to others in the forum.

And I also agree with those who insist that there really are plenty of people who are genuinely happy while in monogamous relationships, and that polyamory should no more be enforced (with shame, guilt, fear, judgement, law ... ) than monogamy.
 

Penny

New member
I am pretty much in agreement with River there. I would like to see consensual nonmonogamy treated as a legitimate option rather than as a dirty secret.
 

redpepper

New member
It is not wrong "for me". It is just plane wrong
I do NOT think Disillusioned was trying to tell anyone on this list that it's wrong to feel you are monogamous. He was just trying to generate a spirit of activism to tackle our society's mono-centric culture.
Oh no.... what does this say then?

I might be poly, but I don't think telling people they are wrong is an approach I want to be apart of; as I have explained earlier. As that attitude didn't change in the OP as far as I know, I am uninterested in associating with this thread further.

Please send me a PM if I am needed here. I haven't read anymore and don't intend to otherwise... I see other Mods are here... so carry on. I will respond when spoken to, but that is it.
 

Charlie

Member
When I first read this thread, some days ago, I decided that I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. "Caustic" is the word that comes to mind.

However, without further ado, I open my mouth.

This is ridiculous.

I've been noticing a slight pattern in a few threads that I find unsettling, and that pattern is ill communication followed by harsh words, which leads to upset members, and, bringing up the rear, a bad vibe.

Frankly, I don't like it.

As a community of people, we have arrived here by way of many different paths and I find that to be a beautiful thing. But for all our differences, of opinions and backgrounds, we have one thing and one thing only that is common to all of us: polyamory.

Now, the only revolution I've witnessed growing here exists as a lack of respect and an abundance of sarcasm amongst community members.

Sarcasm, as my father likes to say, is what keeps people from killing each other. However, I'm not sure it prevents people from being spit on or spit at.

I am not implying that I expect to see everyone get along all the time, or agree on everything. That would be an ignorant expectation. Where I take issue is that while we aspire to offer a new perspective to the cultural paradigm of committed, LOVING relationships, a revolution if you will, we do ourselves a disservice when we speak in nasty, snarky, sarcastic ways to one another within our own community. If you think no one is watching, think again.

The Montgomery Bus boycott, historically popular as one of the most important revolutionary acts for social change, did not happen by accident. It was premeditated, calculated, and funded. Rosa Parks was, I believe, the third person put in place on the bus line to challenge the racial line. Why? Because the first two women had sketchy backgrounds, come to find out, the second woman being found to be pregnant out of wedlock. Why the history lesson? Rosa Parks was the face of that revolution and the community knew that her character would be scrutinized thoroughly and her background had to be impeccable.

So here's my two cents: There are numerous revolutions going on around the world, the majority of them beginning peacefully on the part of the revolutionaries. If there is to be a cultural revolution, one that recognizes polyamory as a viable, honest, respectful, natural, loving option (alongside monogamy) for adult relationships, it better present a face (community) to society that is honest, respectful, natural, and, yes please, loving.

So many of us come to this forum because our lives have struggle and hurt in them already, and we come here seeking advice and solace because it is safe here. Please be nice, as often as possible.

But then again, I could be full of shit.
 
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NeonKaos

Custodian
I actually thought this thread was rather funny (sarcasm notwithstanding), but I can see that other people are taking it rather seriously. Oh mai...
 
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