Monogamous conditioning

T

Tulip

Member
I wonder if anyone could help me address this bit of monogamous conditioning which I found expressed in the article below:

https://psiloveyou.xyz/why-polyamory-is-hard-for-me-60aece11dcad

Below are some of the quotes that are similar to how I feel, in the sense that I have been conditioned to feel like this and even though I can rationalize this to be false and really don't want to be held hostage to this conditioning, emotionally I still get these 'feelings' that this author is talking about.

"Men are told they are valuable when they sleep around. Women are told they are valuable when they find The One and keep them."

"Women are conditioned to aspire to having one committed partner. That makes us win, better, valuable, whatever. Our value is determined by our ability to “keep our man,” and there’s something degrading to that value in having a partner who sleeps with other people.

"It’s an embarrassment for me to say that my partner is out on a date with someone else. It feels like I’ve done something wrong, like I’m lesser, like I haven’t done my job right or he’d be by my side."

So this yes, I feel like if people find out they will think I am frigid, ugly or generally shit in some way and I know we shouldn't worry what people think but I cant seem to get the icky feelings to go away and its frustrating - how do you do it?
 
I think it's interesting you chose to bold that particular quote, because that's NOT monogsmist thinking - it's patriarchal thinking. And in fact for a man, it clashes with the monogsmist standard of "cheaters are no-good lowlifes that do not deserve to keep partners". The fact that men are fed both of these conflicting conditionings at once is a total mindfuck, and can be a great source of stress when put in a position where we're firced to choose one or the other in a moment.

Further proof that both the patriarchy AND mononormative thinking need to go.
 
Just to quickly reply - I bolded that bit because it was the bolded title of the section where i take the quotes from in case someone was looking for it in the article - sorry I didnt make that clearer! :0)
 
I don't know if this helps you any.

I believe that a situation happens. Then in response or reaction to that, some action behavior or thinking behavior happens. And then feelings ensue.

When you say...

Below are some of the quotes that are similar to how I feel, in the sense that I have been conditioned to feel like this and even though I can rationalize this to be false and really don't want to be held hostage to this conditioning, emotionally I still get these 'feelings' that this author is talking about.
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I see that you recognize a general belief you want to change. But what are you THINKING to yourself when the thing happens? If I reorganize it like this...

I have been conditioned to believe ___. I know it's false for me at this point in life. I would like to change my belief.

Then ___ happens. Then I do/think _____. Then bad feelings ensue. The bad feelings are ____.
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What's the missing bits?

Maybe organizing your thoughts that way would help you pinpoint it more?

Galagirl
 
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As a man, nobody has ever told me I was more valuable for sleeping around. I find that most mono women find me less valuable for that. Typically society views us as scoundrels and womanizers. Most of our fellow men might view it that way with a wink and a nod though.

For men, the pressure from outside of poly is the perception that you "allow" " your" woman to have sex with other men. Obviously no real man does that. Remnants of the patriarchy for sure.
 
Hmm, we also get an awful lot of men arrive here saying their wives have "allowed" them to have extramarital relations.

Or wives who have "allowed" their husbands sex elsewhere, but, oh no, they now have those dreaded feelings for their she-was-only-supposed-to-be-a-fuck-buddy.

It's all so horrifically unhealthy in all directions.
 
Thanks for the excercise Galagirl - I've filled it in.

I have been conditioned to believe if my man is actively pursing other women then its because I have failed there is something wrong with me, i must be deficient in some way. I know it's false for me at this point in life. I would like to change my belief.

Then my boyfriend plans a date in an area where I know quite a lot of people and I imagine someone I know seeing him and realising it is a date (we are not 'out' with the NonMog). Then I think they are going to think he is a cheating bastard and I must be stupid for not knowing what he is doing, possibly frigid, boring and definately not special enough as a woman. Then bad feelings ensue. The bad feelings are shame, sadness.

The thoughts I am having are, I think, reflective of how people/society views this type of situation - so I cant really do anything about mononormative culture - so kinda need different thoughts maybe? I either need to be focusing on different thoughts somehow and somehow not caring about how people see the situation. Is that about right?
 
Tulip said:
Thanks for the excercise Galagirl - I've filled it in.

I have been conditioned to believe if my man is actively pursing other women then its because I have failed there is something wrong with me, i must be deficient in some way. I know it's false for me at this point in life. I would like to change my belief.

Then my boyfriend plans a date in an area where I know quite a lot of people and I imagine someone I know seeing him and realising it is a date (we are not 'out' with the NonMog). Then I think they are going to think he is a cheating bastard and I must be stupid for not knowing what he is doing, possibly frigid, boring and definately not special enough as a woman. Then bad feelings ensue. The bad feelings are shame, sadness.

The thoughts I am having are, I think, reflective of how people/society views this type of situation - so I cant really do anything about mononormative culture - so kinda need different thoughts maybe? I either need to be focusing on different thoughts somehow and somehow not caring about how people see the situation. Is that about right?
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That's the way I look at it, but can be easier said than done. I've always prided myself on being outside of society, but I still had similar feelings.

My wife was a very social creature. When we first started poly I didn't want her to take guys to the places we hung out. I didn't want people to think I was some poor sap whose wife cheated on him while he was out of town. In the end I just sucked it up. Some of our friends did think we had problems in our marriage. Oh well. It's really not my problem what others think.
 
Let me repeat that back to you to make sure I got it right.

  • Belief: I believe if my man is actively pursing other women then its because I have failed and there is something wrong with me.
  • 1) Situation: My boyfriend plans a date in an area where I know quite a lot of people. We are not out as non-monogamous.
  • 2) My Thinking Response to 1: I imagine someone I know seeing him and realising it is a date.
  • 3) My Thinking Reponse to 2: I think they are going to think he is a cheating bastard and I must be stupid for not knowing what he is doing, possibly frigid, boring and definately not special enough as a woman..
  • 4) Then bad feelings ensue. The bad feelings are shame, sadness.

When you recognize this is stuff you think? You can change your mind about it.

If you believe you are deficient somehow if your partner seeks other people... you are deficient then. With or without this partner. What is it you lack? Social skills? Common interests? What? Can you list it?

If the deeper belief is that you think you have to live to other people's opinions of you rather than your own personal standards... can you list what your personal standards are? Like if I think you have to wear a dress to church every sunday... you just gonna? Or are you gonna say "I prefer pants" or "I'm not even a church goer. I hike on Sunday."

Or is the problem being outed before you are ready to be out? And that's the stressor? Like would it be a huge deal to say "Yeah, we both see other people. It's not like we were going steady." You still aren't outting yourselves as poly or whatever.

Or is the problem fear of not being able to cope. Say the worst did happen. Those other people thing he's a cheater and you are not cute enough to hang on to your man or whatever. Then what? Your relationship is over?

What's the worst that would happen? How would you cope?

Galagirl
 
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Galagirl... The only thing I would correct about your summary is Belief: I belive if my man is pursuing other women then I believe other people believe I must be deficient in some way. For some reason other people's judgements/societies judgement deeply affects me. I feel he is actively pursuing women because that's who he is and it has nothing to do with how amazing or otherwise that I am. He would be doing it whoever he was with. Then another societal voice says, ah yes, but there is something wrong with you because your putting up with it therefore you must be weak... Then I argue with that voice telling it why I have chosen to go down this path and how it doesn't make me weak etc. So I think mainly I need to figure out some strategies to detach myself from what people think.

Also yes it would be really bad for me if people found out right now for a number of reasons including being seperating from my kids dad who is hostile toward me and could use this against me, plus I come from a very religious family. It would be bad... I would handle it bit I would rather not have to.
 
Hi Tulip,

I read the article you cited, and it reminded me of a passage from the 1990 article A Bouquet of Lovers (the article with the earliest known mention of the word polyamorous):

Hogamus, higamus, men are polygamous;
Higamus, hogamus, women monogamous.​

The article you cited also reminded me of a sentiment I've heard in a place or two, the sentiment being that in this world, the general attitude is that

A man who has multiple sex partners is a stud;
A woman who has multiple sex partners is a slut.​

The result of this general attitude, then, is that polyamory is more advantageous towards men than than it is towards women, as it gives men free license to be "studs," while doing women no favors other than permission to be "sluts."

The above is one aspect of monogamous conditioning. As an extension of that aspect, the general attitude is that while a woman's value lies in how well she is able to maintain a monogamous relationship/marriage, a man's value lies in whether he manages to be nonmonogamous. Again, polyamory is advantageous for the man. It clears the way for him to have multiple sex partners and thus, to have value. The woman also gets permission to have multiple sex partners, but that only takes value away from her.

These general attitudes are doubly tragic, because not only do they soil the notion of polyamory, they also pit men and women squarely against each other. A woman is only worth something if she can squelch the man's natural inclination to be nonmonogamous; a man is only worth something if he can thwart the woman's efforts to rein him in.

To me the solution is for a new general attitude to arise, an attitude that says that polyamory is a natural relationship state for both men and women. The way I see it, a natural monogamist is merely a polyamorist who is "polysaturated" at one partner. The way Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá see it in their book "Sex at Dawn: how we mate, why we stray, and what it means for modern relationships," nonmonogamy is the natural state of humanity, while mononormativity is the artificial imposition that arose with the age of agriculture, and the decline of nomadic hunting/gathering. Humans with a fixed place of residence have tended to have an interest in "owning" things, such as owning one's spouse or one's children ... and less of an interest in "sharing" things, such as sharing one's romantic/sex partners. At least, that has been the case up until now. I am hoping that humans are beginning to learn to share again.

The problem is that even if this change is underway, we are only at the very earliest stages of this change. It will still be slowly evolving long after you and I have passed away. In the meantime, we're still subjected to the opinions of people who are brainwashed by mononormative conditioning, and we ourselves are also brainwashed, not easily able to lay aside that conditioning. If I am a man, I am going to feel empowered by nonmonogamy. If you are a woman, you are going to feel empowered by monogamy. And the only answer to this conflict is for us to "own" one another -- the opposite of sharing.

As an extension of this brainwashing, you live in a society where you could lose your kids, and be disowned by your very religious family, if people find out that you and your man (notice the use of the possessive "your" ... I own him, or should own him) are living an open/polyamorous life. So you run a terrible risk if you let (again there is a possessive word, "let") him date in places where he might be recognized. You, the woman, are expected to be the one who is valuable/desirable enough to maintain a monogamous relationship with your man.

If you are going to be polyamorous, you are going to be a pioneer. You are going to be building a life in a place where very little (human) life exists. You are going to be taking risks that ordinary people don't have to take. You will face persecution. You'll have to do things that scream against your own emotional conditioning. You'll have to let the head rule the heart. In your mind, you know that polyamory makes sense. In your (brainwashed) heart, polyamory feels like a threat to your value and to your well-being. Living polyamorously isn't easy, in this mononormative world. It is hard. It is terrifying. It takes a lot of courage. It is not for everyone. You have to figure out if it's right for you. Is it worth it?

I only hope that reading this post (and the other posts in this thread) inspires you to overcome your own monogamous conditioning. You won't overcome it overnight, you'll have to do it a little at a time. Knowing comes by doing. You won't "feel okay" about polyamory until you've been living it for quite awhile. This thread is just one step along the way in that journey.

Hang in there.
Sincere regards,
Kevin T.
 
Tulip said:
I wonder if anyone could help me address this bit of monogamous conditioning which I found expressed in the article below:

https://psiloveyou.xyz/why-polyamory-is-hard-for-me-60aece11dcad

Below are some of the quotes that are similar to how I feel, in the sense that I have been conditioned to feel like this and even though I can rationalize this to be false and really don't want to be held hostage to this conditioning, emotionally I still get these 'feelings' that this author is talking about.

"Men are told they are valuable when they sleep around. Women are told they are valuable when they find The One and keep them."

"Women are conditioned to aspire to having one committed partner. That makes us win, better, valuable, whatever. Our value is determined by our ability to “keep our man,” and there’s something degrading to that value in having a partner who sleeps with other people.

"It’s an embarrassment for me to say that my partner is out on a date with someone else. It feels like I’ve done something wrong, like I’m lesser, like I haven’t done my job right or he’d be by my side."

So this yes, I feel like if people find out they will think I am frigid, ugly or generally shit in some way and I know we shouldn't worry what people think but I cant seem to get the icky feelings to go away and its frustrating - how do you do it?
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I think the article is very good and you make some very valid points. There's no question that social conditioning in all its various forms has a major impact on our view of what relationships are supposed to look like, as opposed to what we as human beings naturally are.

I recently watched the movie Professor Marston and the Wonder Women I highly recommend it to all who are interested in the effects of socialization and how the truth is often suppressed in order to justify or protect our own views.
 
Thanks for more info. When I read the article I could see where the author was coming from, but that helps see where you are coming from.

Galagirl... The only thing I would correct about your summary is Belief: I belive if my man is pursuing other women then I believe other people believe I must be deficient in some way.
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Has that played out in your experience? You learn that other people do believe you are doing something wrong or bad or whatever?

For some reason other people's judgements/societies judgement deeply affects me. I feel he is actively pursuing women because that's who he is and it has nothing to do with how amazing or otherwise that I am. He would be doing it whoever he was with. Then another societal voice says, ah yes, but there is something wrong with you because your putting up with it therefore you must be weak... Then I argue with that voice telling it why I have chosen to go down this path and how it doesn't make me weak etc. So I think mainly I need to figure out some strategies to detach myself from what people think.
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Does the voice have an "owner?" Like it "old tape" from a relative or friend that now plays inside your head even though they live somewhere else?

Or more general "society" things like movies, books, etc?

It's true you have chosen to go down this path. I think it's normal in a transition time to have to be "arguing" in your head when you are going out of your usual dating/relationship style.

Also yes it would be really bad for me if people found out right now for a number of reasons including being seperating from my kids dad who is hostile toward me and could use this against me, plus I come from a very religious family. It would be bad... I would handle it bit I would rather not have to.
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Well... you are separated. Some people start dating again then. Some wait until their divorce is final. Some people wait even longer than that. You be how you want to be in that transition time.

But I get wanting to limit drama from a STBX while trying to reboot your new life.

Is the critical inner voice is your STBX husband? :confused: Did he talk to you like that? Telling you you aren't good enough to keep a man, etc?

You don't sound like you believe it... more like you got it piled on and are trying to come out from under it and dust yourself off kinda?

Galagirl
 
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Thank you everyone for your insights and support :0)

Kevin, your post is great - it made me feel like you really understand, and get it I read it a few times :0) I want to have a discussion with my partner about this issue and I will give him your post to read as it is also coming from another man which is good.

GalaGirl - writing my last post made me realise (after some reflection) that although I don't logically, in any way at all, believe that if only i was amazing enough that my partner wouldn't be persuing others, I think the weight of societies opinions (at a general level including indoctrination with, for example, disney movies where the beautiful princess is so amazing that the prince makes her his one and only because she is truly gorgeous and amazing) causes me to doubt my logical conclusion - in a kind of insiduous "what if they are right?" way, if that makes sense? I was brought up evangelical christian and taught not to trust my own thinking, feelings and experience but to instead look to god for how I should think/feel/believe. I don't believe any of this now but its a ingrained pattern I guess thats hard to shake just because I don't want to be that way. So yes, i am prone to self doubt and it is effecting me in this journey I am making. Just realising thats what is it helps!

The voice that tells me I am weak for 'putting up with this' is definately a group of women's voices - my mum, my aunties, my sister and her friends. Despite their high religiosity I am from a family of very strong women who were most certainly in charge of the family and their relationships. The would be horrified at the thought of my partner having other female partners. Wierdly, I think they would be much more accepting of me having other partners, as even though that would still be completely 'immoral' at least I wasn't being 'taken advantage of' by a man, which is a terrible 'crime' in my family :0)

And sorry I didn't make it clear about my ex husband - we seperated and divorced over 6 years ago now but he uses every opportunity to make things difficult for me and would have a field day if he knew we were non-monogamous, possibly involving child services etc so, I'm not bothered what he would think just want real consequences me and the kids would pay. Me and my partner have been together 5 years and live together and I have another partner I have been seeing for about 5 months. (Which I am really excited about and is going really well :0)) (At least this journey is not all hard processing work:0)

And yes absolutely I am trying to get out under the piles of crap, i feel like I am seeing more and more of the conditioning and total lies society and culture feeds you about how relationships and love are supposed to go...it makes me angry sometimes. Particulary, (like I mentioned above) I recently realised how disney films are setting little girls up for misery thinking that if they can be like the stunningly beautiful but feisty princess then a handsome prince will come along and fall madly in love with her and want her and only her forever. So we all go round thinking if we were just amazing enough then our men would not want to ever be with other women - its just such bollocks and seems like poison now I know more about the world!!

Professor marston is now on my watchlist - thanks hedgehog!

Anyway, little rant over. Thanks again for giving me so much support and food for thought eveyone xx
 
Happily, the latest Disney movies have let go of the "catch a man, happily ever after" theme. Disney has to keep up with the times. Lilo and Stitch, Brave, The Frog Princess, Moana, Tangled, and Frozen differ greatly from Cinderella, Snow White and Sleeping Beauty. And if you dig deep into Beauty and the Beast, it is about much more than catching a man.

While the mermaid Ariel does find her prince, her journey is about separating from her father, and her "mother" the crone witch Ursula, who is attempting to hold on to her own youth. It's all about adolescence, personal agency, independence and the depth of desire, finding your voice, asking for help from the right people, getting your legs. Very deep stuff.

One of my great interests is studying sacred stories, myths and fairy tales. The deeper meaning of those classic fairy tales is actually not what you think. It's about the hero's [heroine's] journey, and about maidens, mothers and crones, and so much more, as any Jungian will tell you. Think of the horrors of Hansel and Gretel! Gretel saves the day in the end, while Hansel is imprisoned.

Another myth to think about that empowers women while exploring maiden/mother/crone dynamics, is The Wizard of Oz. The maiden leaves her earthly mother and father, and battles a crone, with the help of a new magical fairy godmother (aka the good witch, who finally tells her she had the answer all along) who opens a new world of power, with the help of some trickster male characters (including Toto!).

The Bible of your parents was written in large part, at a time when the patriarchy was just taking over from a goddess based society. It was natural to worship goddesses in hunter gatherer societies. Male gods had to be imposed by force. If you remember your Old Testament, you can pick out all the times the Yahwists attempted to get rid of the worship of Asherah. Her statues kept popping up in the Temple in Jerusalem time and time again.

And in the New Testament, the goddess is represented rather favorably, by the double Marys, the virgin and the consort the Magdalene, the apostle to the apostles.

But the very beginning of the Bible puts Woman in her place. In Eden, she is tempted by the serpent (who is actually a representation of Asherah and her abundance in the fruit of the tree, and not male), to gain more knowledge and maintain her power. But she's blasted by the male god Yahweh, and the support of Asherah (who was called upon during pregnancy and labor) is taken away from her.

She is then told by this authoritative bastard that her desire must be only for her husband. But notice there is no indication that Adam's desire must be only for her!
 
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Ah, thanks for even more details. It does clarify more things.

It almost sounds like (on top of all else!) you might be in a period of reflection and introspection on the spiritual/religious front.

I think the weight of societies opinions <snip>causes me to doubt my logical conclusion - in a kind of insiduous "what if they are right?" way, if that makes sense?
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Ok. But right for WHO? We aren't all cookie cutter people.

As adults we hopefully eventually realize that there is no "one size fits all" solution to everything. I need glasses. My spouse can't wear mine. It's MY prescription. I have relatives who met and married in a very "girl/boy next door thing" and have known each other since CHILDHOOD. That's def not my story with my spouse. And that is OK!

There are also many ways to love and live. And our way of life doesn't have to be our parents' way, our friend's way, etc.

I was brought up evangelical christian and taught not to trust my own thinking, feelings and experience but to instead look to god for how I should think/feel/believe.
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Well... if the people are trained into this line of thinking, who does it benefit?

Might it be the church? Who has church goers contributing to the coffers?

The minister and/or church president? Because church goers all thinking the same are easier to lead than trying to lead a mess of people all going in different directions?

And were you allowed to talk direct to God or did you have a God interpreter?

This isn't a religion topic, you don't have to answer deep or at all to any of that.

What I'm saying is that IT IS OK to question things from before -- even beliefs, habits, etc. Apply critical thinking, evaluate, reevaluate, etc.

You almost kinda have to! What I used to believe, wear, do at 5 is not what I did at 15, 25, 35, 45, etc.

It is OK to have doubts when trying new stuff and finding your way. Esp when different than family of origin. You have no role models.

It's even ok for it to be hard. If you ever walked in snow and had to be first to break path, well, it's rougher for you than the people following you in your footsteps because it's already a broken a path or part broken.

I don't believe any of this now but its a ingrained pattern I guess thats hard to shake just because I don't want to be that way.
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Yup. You do not just shake it off.

Instead you practice not being that way. You notice the pattern start to happen because of automatic reaction/response, going on auto-pilot. Then you put the brakes on, choose something else you DO believe/want.

It can feel very "stop and go" or "wonky" because you have to keep stopping to check you aren't on auto-pilot. Eventually in time you will forge your new path and it will feel smoother going.

So yes, i am prone to self doubt and it is effecting me in this journey I am making. Just realising thats what is it helps!
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Glad it helps to realize that.

And what's wrong with self doubt if it helps you check you are on the path you really want to be on? One can deal with micro-correction easier. Like oh, I missed a turn. Let me fix that now at the next light. Than to be driving 50 miles the wrong way and have to make a HUGE turn around.

The voice that tells me I am weak for 'putting up with this' is definately a group of women's voices - my mum, my aunties, my sister and her friends.
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Well, they have their own heads to live in. They don't have to take up space in your head rent free.

You also aren't "putting up with this." It sounds like you chose to go there and you like both your partners.

When you have stillness in your head without these "extra" judgy voices, what does YOUR quiet inner voice say? You sound like you know it.

So part of this time might be intentionally pausing before doing stuff to check "Ok. Who's voice is this REALLY? MINE or like some old tape thing from some other person?"

Despite their high religiosity I am from a family of very strong women who were most certainly in charge of the family and their relationships. The would be horrified at the thought of my partner having other female partners.
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Um... and is that not you? Strong woman in charge of your family and your relationships? :confused:

Have you ever experienced strong women with high religiosity who WOULDN'T be horrified?

Wierdly, I think they would be much more accepting of me having other partners, as even though that would still be completely 'immoral' at least I wasn't being 'taken advantage of' by a man, which is a terrible 'crime' in my family :0)
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Isn't that interesting? Is it because somewhere in the family some man took advantage of a woman relative? So there's this GRRR within the group now about it? If something like that happened to one of your female relatives, you know that's not your story right? And you don't have to carry other people's leftover unprocessed baggage about it.

I'm not bothered what he would think just want real consequences me and the kids would pay.
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Ah, ok. So he's already your ex husband, but being a jerk about post divorce life. How much longer before the kids are 18-21 and you can be all "Whatever, dude. Kids are grown, graduated HS, on their own. I can do what I want now" without worrying about him making your life hell? Like basic polite at a kid's wedding or something but not really having to deal with him any more?

i feel like I am seeing more and more of the conditioning and total lies society and culture feeds you about how relationships and love are supposed to go...it makes me angry sometimes.
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What's your love/relationship/sex education been like? From your family? School? Maybe that plays into this some?

I can sense you are angry about it.

Particulary, (like I mentioned above) I recently realised how disney films are setting little girls up for misery thinking that if they can be like the stunningly beautiful but feisty princess then a handsome prince will come along and fall madly in love with her and want her and only her forever.
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You mention this few times. Not been my experience. Who in your life was pointing to Disney as instruction for actual living and relating? :confused:

In my life, my parents were like "Oh, fairy tales. Those are pretend and fun to visit but remember it's not reality."

I did and still do enjoy those.

But some of those original stories are really ooky. Like Cinderella with the little birds telling the shoe messenger "Look back, look back, there's blood on the track" because the stepsisters chopped off toes and heels to squish into the shoes on the advice of the stepmother so one of them could go off to marry the prince.

http://www.365cinderellas.com/2011/06/161-cinderella-grimms-fairy-tales1965.html

That's dysfunctional family weirdness right there. That's not a model for how to live in real life. Maybe entertainment to read or watch as a movie, but its not supposed to be a life guide. Even the more "sanitized" 1950 Disney version without feet chopping isn't a life guide. Who decides to marry someone after one date?! And one has to consider the gender roles of the time it was made. Cinderella doing housework and marrying a hubby fits 1950s ideas.

I recently realised how disney films are setting little girls up for misery thinking that if they can be like the stunningly beautiful but feisty princess then a handsome prince will come along and fall madly in love with her and want her and only her forever.
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Isn't it the parent's job to teach the kid how to tell fiction from reality? Cuz Disney makes movies to make a buck. They aren't making it to parent thousands of kids.

So we all go round thinking if we were just amazing enough then our men would not want to ever be with other women - its just such bollocks and seems like poison now I know more about the world!!
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Newer Disney is better. Brave was nice -- Merida fought for her right to choose her OWN partner and not be dealing in arranged marriages and got the guys to agree too. Because THEY didn't love the arranged marriage thing either.

But... in the end? They are still making movies to make a buck. If that what's selling better now they are gonna make it. ;)

It IS pervasive, but that's why applying critical thinking matters.

It's older now but you might like reading "Can't Buy My Love" by Jean Kilbourne. It's an online read here.

https://archive.org/details/cantbuymylovehow00kilb

Galagirl
 
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Agreeing with a lot of what has been said.

With one little tiny unimportant exeption...

"Brave" is not a "Disney Movie". It's a Pixar movie. Owned by Disney, sure. Trying to be pushed in its Princess brand, annoyingly. But not part of the Animated Canon. DAC and Pixar have vastly different sensibilities despite living in the same house. Just like I wouldn't call the MCU "Disney Movies"

I know that has nothing to do with anything. Just a lil pet peeve of mine. Love all those films. Relevant points still stand.
 
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