Navigating marriage that is converting to Poly

[hbarsquared]

Hello all!

I'm thankful that this seems like a very self-reflective, knowledgeable, and supportive community. Thank you for helping me feel comfortable to post.

I have no idea how unique my situation is - it probably isn't. And although I see snippets of similar experiences here and in other groups, I have yet to come across something that I can resonate fully with. I'm open to support, advice, and any perspectives anyone might have.

I (M/43/straight) have been monogamous in a relationship with my now-wife (F/44/demi?) for 20 years. She had a 4-year-old from a previous relationship when we met, with autism. I raised him as his dad, and he moved out at a few years ago to a group home. We got married 8 years ago. We have three kids, 7, 5, and 3.

She recently (1.5 months ago) went on a weeklong trip with an old flame (not the dad of my stepson). They were intimate and sexual, and she returned to say she decided she was polyamorous and wanted to continue her relationship with both of us. He knows we're married with kids and he's fine with the situation. She already spent another week with him a couple weeks ago, and she is making plans to see him monthly on weekend/weeklong trips. She would prefer, eventually/soon-ish, that he moves in and we all live together in a kitchen-table arrangement.

She has also decided to have a baby with him and will be taking out her IUD this week (after our third, we decided not to have more children but we've remained sexually active, so she went back to her IUD and I got a vasectomy).

I am trying to be open minded and accepting, but this has been very hard for me. Every time I express how I need time, or I'm in pain, she says I'm just trying to hurt her and I'm not letting her be happy.

There's a bit more history, of course, but this is the essential distillation. I'll go into more, but I don't want my first post to be a college paper!

How do I navigate this? How do I learn to accept this change in our relationship?

Thank you, everyone.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Why would you accept that?

 

[kdt26417]

Hello hbarsquared,

I can't tell how much advance notice your wife gave you, that she was going to have a sexual relationship with this other guy. She definitely didn't give you any advance notice that she was going to be polyamorous, nor that she was going to continue the relationship with this other guy. I don't know if she has done anything like this in the past, or if this just came out of the blue. I'm sure you must be in a state of shock, given how fast things are progressing.

She seems to be very focused on her own wants and needs right now. Everything you say to her, she views it through that lens. If you're struggling with this whole sudden situation, she switches that around and makes it about her. Hence, you must be trying to hurt her. I don't know if this is NRE or a midlife crisis, or a combination of things. It certainly isn't fair to you. I don't know how you would learn to accept this state of affairs. It seems to me that she, too, needs to make an adjustment in how she views things.

Sympathetically,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

Welcome.

She recently (1.5 months ago) went on a weeklong trip with an old flame (not the dad of my stepson). They were intimate and sexual, and she returned to say she decided she was polyamorous and wanted to continue her relationship with both of us.

So was this already open marriage and ok for her to do that?

Or was this her cheating on the marriage agreements? And then coming home wanting to wave the "polyamory brush" at it to make it ok by magic? Are you getting steam rolled or rail roaded into this? Cuz that is what it sounds like.

He knows we're married with kids and he's fine with the situation. She already spent another week with him a couple weeks ago, and she is making plans to see him monthly on weekend/weeklong trips. She would prefer, eventually/soon-ish, that he moves in and we all live together in a kitchen-table arrangement.

WTF? This is where you put your foot down and say "NO."

Your consent to participate in things or not belongs to YOU. You do NOT have to be up for any of this.

She can move out with him. Or you can move out. But you do NOT have to agree to live with this dude or leap into KTP or anything.

She has also decided to have a baby with him and will be taking out her IUD this week (after our third, we decided not to have more children but we've remained sexually active, so she went back to her IUD and I got a vasectomy).

This is crazy talk.

You can tell her you are NOT up for that, and you will not be supporting a child that is not your own.

I don't know what the paternity laws are where you live but some places if you are married to the mother you are automatically listed on the birth certificate as the dad. You might not want this responsibility.

I am trying to be open minded and accepting, but this has been very hard for me. Every time I express how I need time, or I'm in pain, she says I'm just trying to hurt her and I'm not letting her be happy.

HER happy doesn't have to come out of YOUR hide.

You can choose to be happy separately.

You can say "No, thanks. Not up for any of this. Too much too fast and taking me for granted. If you are going there, here's where I get off this bus."

You do not have to be dragged along for the ride.

She can be free to go do whatever crazy she wants.

You can choose be free FROM this crazy.

You can choose to remain monogamous. You can choose to explore poly with more calm people who don't do this wackadoo. You can be celibate. You can do WHATEVER you want. And that includes choosing to SKIP all this wackadoo.

Do not let your soft feelings for her lead you on a wacky path to mess. Esp when you have your own long term health to think about and the well being of small dependents.

It's ok to say "Nope" and do a trial separation or go right to a divorce. There is nothing wrong with changing to a divorced coparenting family if she now wants to do stuff you do not want.

You have to be able to say "I love you a lot but NO. Not even for you will I do stuff or stay in stuff that hurts me. That is asking too much."

You are allowed to have your dealbreakers.

 

[Openbook23]

I feel like we are missing context. Was that one week trip a month and a half ago the START of all this? Or were they kind of seeing each other before that? Either way, this seems WAY fast. This is like NRE nightmare. There's a good general rule that you shouldnt make any big life choice in the first year, because NRE is distorting your thinking. This seems like the most extreme case of that I've ever read. Move in? Have a kid? WTF???

You listed ages; your wife may be feeling urgency due to age as well. At 44, she doesn't have much window left to have a child. I get that. But this is just reckless.

 

[Magdlyn]

I completely agree with the others, and want to mention you and she have three very young children who need a lot of care. Goodness, one might still be in diapers! Is she burned out? If so, she's having an extreme reaction. Why have one more child? She's already got four. And if she's swanning off on weekend or weeklong trips with this new and shiny man of hers, who is left with the kids? You, I suppose. OMFG.

 

[dingedheart]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing if you’re overwhelmed with the 3 you have now and you’re flitting off on week long trips with a new lover how the hell does pumping out another one make sense ??

I don’t mean this as a joke or any negative way but I think the OP a should get his t levels checked.

 

[hbarsquared]

Further context and clarification!

Yes, mid-April was the START of all of this. Although, I should have seen it coming.

Her background is trauma-informed, with issues of abandonment and personal autonomy with both her family and previous relationships. I have always tried to be her rock: accepting, supportive, and attempting to show that she deserves to be loved.

Her personality is also one if intense passion. She will be overjoyed seeing a flower growing from a crack in the cement, and become overwhelmed with sadness if that same flower gets picked. One of the things I actually love about her: such a genuine perspective of the world.

In her mind, she is saying she has always felt this way and only recently she's been able to "label" it. To her, there's been no change. And she does not understand why I cannot accept that.

She has visited this old flame in the past. First time about 15 years, ago, a few years into our relationship. The conversation went like this:

"I'd like to go to these concerts and spend time with him."​

"Okay, have fun! I trust you, it's not like you're going to do anything intimate with him,"​

"Well, I might. I can't control how I'll feel. I still have feelings for him."​

"Well, it would hurt me if you do. I love you and I'm committed to you. I don't want you to, but if you need to work things out, I'm here for you."​

"Okay."​

And she would end up being intimate and sexual. She would be honest afterward about when/what happened. But also that it wasn't something she wanted to pursue in her life. We moved on.

I have always felt she just needed to work things out. And it was important that I was there for her. No that I was "forgiving" her, per se. But I was perhaps more "accepting" than I should have been? Telling her that it caused me pain was not enough.

Fast forward to this April. Same thing: she wants to visit him, go to a few concerts, go to a few restaurants. Same conversation, except now we're married with kids: "I trust you won't do anything." "Well I might." "It would hurt me if you do." She is intimate and sexual with him anyway. This time she comes back saying she will continue the relationship.

​

 

[hbarsquared]

HER happy doesn't have to come out of YOUR hide.

You can choose to be happy separately.

You can say "No, thanks. Not up for any of this. Too much too fast and taking me for granted. If you are going there, here's where I get off this bus."

You do not have to be dragged along for the ride.

She can be free to go do whatever crazy she wants.

You can choose be free FROM this crazy.

You can choose to remain monogamous. You can choose to explore poly with more calm people who don't do this wackadoo. You can be celibate. You can do WHATEVER you want. And that includes choosing to SKIP all this wackadoo.

Do not let your soft feelings for her lead you on a wacky path to mess. Esp when you have your own long term health to think about and the well being of small dependents.

It's ok to say "Nope" and do a trial separation or go right to a divorce. There is nothing wrong with changing to a divorced coparenting family if she now wants to do stuff you do not want.

You have to be able to say "I love you a lot but NO. Not even for you will I do stuff or stay in stuff that hurts me. That is asking too much."

You are allowed to have your dealbreakers.

I really appreciate this. I feel like I'm the crazy one for not accepting who she is. I should have known, right? Why can I not accept her for who she is? I truly believe polyamory is an awesome thing, objectively - maybe if I just confront my own emotional biases it will work out?

I also get how those phrases are not healthy. Then there's the sunk cost of 20 years and four children.

I see myself as the "primary caregiver," though it's more even then a lot of relationships, I would guess. We are both full-time, but she works later hours, makes more money, and she's exhausted and retires to her room most days. I pick up and drop off, I make dinner, I do laundry and dishes. I clean house, I go grocery shopping, I mow the lawn, I build the furniture, I fix the light switches. She buys them toys and clothes on amazon, and schedules their sports and the family events we go to.

Honestly, when she's on her trips, there's not much difference. She would go to conferences and trips with friends before this. Her reasoning is: "I'm doing the same thing as before, leaving as much as before, just with someone else. What difference should it make?"

I feel like she has a point?

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info.

Her background is trauma-informed, with issues of abandonment and personal autonomy with both her family and previous relationships. I have always tried to be her rock: accepting, supportive, and attempting to show that she deserves to be loved.

I think you are being way too nice. Are you people pleaser? Do you have white knight tendencies?

It's fine to be supportive of a partner in appropriate ways Going over the top with it -- not so great. You do not exist to be used or taken advantage of.

Her personality is also one if intense passion. She will be overjoyed seeing a flower growing from a crack in the cement, and become overwhelmed with sadness if that same flower gets picked. One of the things I actually love about her: such a genuine perspective of the world.

In her mind, she is saying she has always felt this way and only recently she's been able to "label" it. To her, there's been no change. And she does not understand why I cannot accept that.

With these mood swings, impulsiveness, and seeming lack of awareness for others... is she Bipolar, BPD, or something similar? Not trying to dx.

Just saying... something seems really off. Up and down and all around is not normal marriage for most people.

"I'd like to go to these concerts and spend time with him."
"Okay, have fun! I trust you, it's not like you're going to do anything intimate with him,"
"Well, I might. I can't control how I'll feel. I still have feelings for him."
"Well, it would hurt me if you do. I love you and I'm committed to you. I don't want you to, but if you need to work things out, I'm here for you."
"Okay."

One might not be able to control how one feels. One usually can control how they behave.

Might not LIKE it, but usually can exercise self control.

I have always felt she just needed to work things out. And it was important that I was there for her. No that I was "forgiving" her, per se. But I was perhaps more "accepting" than I should have been? Telling her that it caused me pain was not enough.

Here? I agree. You are way too "accepting." You could have said a plain "No. Concert is fine. Sex is not."

Fast forward to this April. Same thing: she wants to visit him, go to a few concerts, go to a few restaurants. Same conversation, except now we're married with kids: "I trust you won't do anything." "Well I might." "It would hurt me if you do." She is intimate and sexual with him anyway. This time she comes back saying she will continue the relationship.

So what is the consequence for when she knows something will hurt you and she does it and hurts you anyway?

This is her doing loving and kind behavior toward you HOW?

All that seems to happen is you make some noise, she does what she wants, maybe you make some more noise... and then nothing. You keep on putting up with it.

This is YOU doing loving and kind behavior toward you HOW?

I do not say that to be mean.

I say it because I think you need stronger personal boundaries and there needs to be consequences. She can't just swan about doing whatever. She is NOT a free agent like a footloose and fancy free single.

I really appreciate this. I feel like I'm the crazy one for not accepting who she is. I should have known, right? Why can I not accept her for who she is? I truly believe polyamory is an awesome thing, objectively - maybe if I just confront my own emotional biases it will work out?

"Crazy making" is a real word. It's another term for gaslighting. Do you get gaslighted here?


You might be ok with consenting, healthy polyamory with healthy poly partners. But this is not it.

She doesn't sound healthy. And this is NOT healthy polyamory.

This is her starting up a cheating affair right out in the open before the wedding and continuing it after the marriage and expecting you to roll with it.

Call it what it is. Do not sugarcoat it to yourself.

She may want to call it "polyamory" so it sounds better in her mind.

But it isn't consenting and healthy polyamory. It's just the new word/new thing she's gonna steam roll you with. As she has been doing.

With her trauma background and her mood swings and all that? I think you might be dealing with someone who needs to get a doc check up so you know what you have on your hands. She might not want to go either. Esp if she's allergic to taking personal responsibility.

In case it helps you. Again, I am not dx-ing but this sounds weird.

https://outofthefog.website/traits

Do not get into sunk cost fallacy. Ending it at 20 years is better than 30, 40, 50 if this needs to end.

You get to start your NEW chapter that much faster. Rather than dragging out the misery.

The kids are young, some of them. But the older ones? What do you want to teach?

When they get to have grown up relationships, their job is to just throw themselves under the bus and tolerate whatever the partner dishes out? If they grow up seeing this as the "normal" how much MORE abuse and weird would they tolerate before they go "Hrm.... maybe this is not ok?" Or they become the ones doing the hurting?

Honestly, when she's on her trips, there's not much difference. She would go to conferences and trips with friends before this. Her reasoning is: "I'm doing the same thing as before, leaving as much as before, just with someone else. What difference should it make?"

I feel like she has a point?

I think YOU might benefit from seeing a doctor.

Taking work and friend trips and holding up the shared marriage agreements is one thing.

Taking trips to connect with her cheating affair partner and cheating on her marriage agreements? HURTING YOU? That's another thing.

But if you have grown used to being ignored, taken for granted, emotionally abused, hurt, etc? Then no. It's not gonna feel any different to you. It is same old song, different day. Here's some bad, here's some more bad.

This is the healthy relationship wheel. Does she actually make the cut?

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/fpntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_2019-03-01.pdf

The things you are going through is A LOT. Probably more than internet strangers can help you with. I'm sympathetic but I really think you could focus on YOU and your long term well being.

Start with a doc check up. And tell the doc about this cheating affair and request a counselor referral.

Tell your wife this cheating affair has to stop and you'd like her to see a doctor and go to couple counseling.

If she's not gonna? She's just gonna carry on? And she's planning on getting pregnant by the cheating affair partner?

Start getting you OUT of this wackadoo. Time for trial separation. Since she wants to live with him -- she can move out. Then the kids can stay with YOU and away from all this weird and THEIR home base is still the same and stable.

Keep a sharp eye on the kids in case behaviors change -- bedwetting, regressing, problems at school, etc. Cuz they might need family therapy.

And after the initial hurt of setting up a trial separation? Get a taste of life NOT dealing with her. Does it feel like RELIEF? Does it feel more FREE? Like weight off your shoulders?

I'm really sorry this is happening like this.

This is NOT polyamory.

But please consider getting some professional help, having some consequences, and saving yourself.

You MUST be able to say "I love you a lot. But NO. Not even for you will I do things or stay in things that hurt me. That is asking too much."

 

[hbarsquared]

@GalaGirl: Your respect and your honesty is extremely refreshing. Thank you so much, I needed to hear that. I take no offense at all.

I think you are being way too nice. Are you people pleaser? Do you have white knight tendencies?

It's fine to be supportive of a partner in appropriate ways Going over the top with it -- not so great. You do not exist to be used or taken advantage of.

Definitely a people-pleaser. I'm not going to deny, but I don't necessarily see the "white knight" in myself. I've always been focused on the importance of "acceptance" rather than "fixing." It's more internal to myself: I am a bad person if I cannot accept other people for who they are.

With these mood swings, impulsiveness, and seeming lack of awareness for others... is she Bipolar, BPD, or something similar? Not trying to dx.

Just saying... something seems really off. Up and down and all around is not normal marriage for most people.

One might not be able to control how one feels. One usually can control how they behave.

Might not LIKE it, but usually can exercise self control.

She has gone to therapy, off-and-on. Hasn't quite fit the criteria for bipolar. But definitely ADHD and autism spectrum.

I feel like self-control hasn't been an issue with her, because her intuition and motivations align so well with being successful. She does what she want regardless of how it effects other people - it just so happens that what she wants to do is volunteer, help the homeless, and be the best medical professional she can be. Hard to argue with that, sometimes.

Here? I agree. You are way too "accepting." You could have said a plain "No. Concert is fine. Sex is not."

So what is the consequence for when she knows something will hurt you and she does it and hurts you anyway?

This is her doing loving and kind behavior toward you HOW?

All that seems to happen is you make some noise, she does what she wants, maybe you make some more noise... and then nothing. You keep on putting up with it.

This is YOU doing loving and kind behavior toward you HOW?

I do not say that to be mean.

I say it because I think you need stronger personal boundaries and there needs to be consequences. She can't just swan about doing whatever. She is NOT a free agent like a footloose and fancy free single.

You're absolutely right, and where I recognize I'm at fault for enabling. I have a poor sense of where I should have personal boundaries, or even what they are. I've started therapy and I'm hoping to work on this. It's tough, simultaneously with all these changes going on.

This is her starting up a cheating affair right out in the open before the wedding and continuing it after the marriage and expecting you to roll with it.

Call it what it is. Do not sugarcoat it to yourself.

She may want to call it "polyamory" so it sounds better in her mind.

But it isn't consenting and healthy polyamory. It's just the new word/new thing she's gonna steam roll you with. As she has been doing.

I think I needed to hear this so I didn't think I was being crazy or that I'm a horrible person for reacting this way with her.

When they get to have grown up relationships, their job is to just throw themselves under the bus and tolerate whatever the partner dishes out? If they grow up seeing this as the "normal" how much MORE abuse and weird would they tolerate before they go "Hrm.... maybe this is not ok?" Or they become the ones doing the hurting?

You're absolutely right.

Taking trips to connect with her cheating affair partner and cheating on her marriage agreements? HURTING YOU? That's another thing.

But if you have grown used to being ignored, taken for granted, emotionally abused, hurt, etc? Then no. It's not gonna feel any different to you. It is same old song, different day. Here's some bad, here's some more bad.

This super resonates with me, thank you. It feels worse, of course, but it's not a different feeling.

Start getting you OUT of this wackadoo. Time for trial separation. Since she wants to live with him -- she can move out. Then the kids can stay with YOU and away from all this weird and THEIR home base is still the same and stable.

Keep a sharp eye on the kids in case behaviors change -- bedwetting, regressing, problems at school, etc. Cuz they might need family therapy.

And after the initial hurt of setting up a trial separation? Get a taste of life NOT dealing with her. Does it feel like RELIEF? Does it feel more FREE? Like weight off your shoulders?

Working on building up the courage to do this. The house is in her name, not mine. I don't have the income she does (and have gone into debt supporting her needs, too). I'm the male, too, and she is a very successful mother - no judge would ever let me see my kids for more than a weekend if it came to a fight or she felt retributive.

I feel like I have a better understand now, and a better direction. Thank you so much for the clarity.

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad you took in spirit intended.

I feel like I'm the crazy one for not accepting who she is. I should have known, right? Why can I not accept her for who she is?

Who is saying this stuff to you? Her? You?

You can accept who she is. AND accept who you are and decide its better apart. Then she can be free to be who she is over THERE. And you can be free to be who you are over HERE.

Definitely a people-pleaser. I'm not going to deny, but I don't necessarily see the "white knight" in myself.

Tell your new counselor about all this cheating, mention your people pleaser stuff.

I've always been focused on the importance of "acceptance" rather than "fixing." It's more internal to myself: I am a bad person if I cannot accept other people for who they are.

Who taught you this belief?

You can accept someone how they are. Red is a big football fan and centers their life around games. Like live, breathe, sleep and eat football.

Blue is a big music fan. Doesn't center their life around it, but is dedicated to going to the once a month open mic at the local bar and hits some concerts here and there for the musicians they like.

And then you consider YOU and compatibility.

If sports bores you to tears, no. You will not be going with Red to any games and might not even be friends or date Red because that scene is just not your cup of team. You aren't "bad" -- You can accept RED how they are very sportsy. You just don't have things in common.

Where you might not be huge into music but don't mind being friends with Blue or dating Blue because you do like SOME, and doing an open mic date once in a while is pleasant and not ugh. You aren't "bad" -- you can accept Blue likes music to this degree. You might just only go with Blue to the concerts for the ones you BOTH like. Or visit the open mic twice a year and not once a month with them.

You are allowed to be your own person and have your own interests. You don't have to people please and bend yourself around others and what they like or want.

She has gone to therapy, off-and-on. Hasn't quite fit the criteria for bipolar. But definitely ADHD and autism spectrum.

I feel like self-control hasn't been an issue with her, because her intuition and motivations align so well with being successful. She does what she want regardless of how it effects other people - it just so happens that what she wants to do is volunteer, help the homeless, and be the best medical professional she can be. Hard to argue with that, sometimes.

Like ADHD hyperfocus?

You CAN argue with that. It's fine to live her life in that mode when it affects only her.

But not great if it means your life together gets dinged. There can be work/volunteer/life balance.

You're absolutely right, and where I recognize I'm at fault for enabling. I have a poor sense of where I should have personal boundaries, or even what they are. I've started therapy and I'm hoping to work on this. It's tough, simultaneously with all these changes going on.

A personal boundary is your line in the sand. You get set it for your time, energy, property, body, etc.

I can't just walk up to you and punch you in the nose. You probably have a personal boundary of "I like not getting hit. If there's a punchy, flapping person, I correct, get away, shout, or defend. "

So if you are holding a baby and they flap around as babies do, and the baby hits your nose? You grab their little hand and stay "No hit! Soft touch." And pat your cheek gently with their hand to model touches that are ok. You TEACH them.

If some adult punches your nose from the sky? You say "No!" and depending on situation get the heck away or shout for help or hit back. You don't "just accept they are punchy" and stand there letting them hit your nose, right?

I think I needed to hear this so I didn't think I was being crazy or that I'm a horrible person for reacting this way with her.

You are not crazy nor horrible. Gonna guess. I might be guess wrong.

Were you not allowed to get mad or upset growing up? Were you brought up by people or around people who did not respect your privacy or your right to say no? Didn't teach you or respect your personal boundaries? Told you were "bad" or "horrible" if you protested or tried to set reasonable limits?

A kid doesn't get any defense other than "make them happy" people pleasing so whoever it is doesn't blow up and rain doom on them. But the tools you used as a child to cope and survive if you had such people in your life? It is ok to OUTGROW it as an adult. It's also ok to want to THRIVE and not merely survive your adult life.

Please talk to your new counselor about your need to develop healthy personal boundaries as an adult and get past this people pleaser thing.

Working on building up the courage to do this. The house is in her name, not mine. I don't have the income she does (and have gone into debt supporting her needs, too).

Are you being financially abused? Like your money is "our money" and her money is just "hers?"

Why would you go into debt supporting her needs? Don't you have a need to be debt free? Or a need to maintain only reasonable size debts? Like having a rental lease or a mortgage or a car payment? And not like living beyond your means?

I'm the male, too, and she is a very successful mother - no judge would ever let me see my kids for more than a weekend if it came to a fight or she felt retributive.

You can ask for joint custody. Look up the laws where you live.

A divorcing couple I know took a flat. And the parents took turns being at the 2 bedroom flat or at "the kid house" so the kids had their same environment and routines as much as possible. It was the parents who bore the burden of alternating in and out.

They did it that way to give them the separation year to disentangle slowly and sanely.

Not everyone has the ability to do that with finances and emotions, but just because a lot of people opt for shitshow divorce doesn't mean YOU have to. Even your partner wants shitshow? You still don't have to.

I feel like I have a better understand now, and a better direction. Thank you so much for the clarity.

Glad it helped you some.

Very glad you got yourself a counselor to better support you in this challenging time. Hang in there as you sort stuff out.

GL!
Galagirl

 

[hbarsquared]

Still figuring this out, but I think things are getting cleared and better!

I'm curious about further thoughts on the philosophy and ethics of boundaries and ultimatums, What's an appropriate boundary?

So, my wife is not understanding or seeing how what she is doing has crossed any line or could be considered hurtful. It's my fault if I am hurt, and I'm hurting her by not allowing her to be herself.

I can understand a boundary in which I say, "I don't want to go to this restaurant anymore." But is it an appropriate boundary to say, "I would feel uncomfortable if you go to this restaurant and I don't want you to go either."?

Or, "I am not interested in being poly and I do not want a third person to sleep at our house." Versus, "I don't want us to be poly and I do not want you being intimate with someone else.

I guess what I'm wondering: if her poly arrangement does not affect ME, do I have any right to establish a boundary about it? She was/is considering having a baby outside of our relationship, and I think me saying "no" to that makes sense because it directly affects me.

But if she is leaving to spend time with someone else once a month, emotionally and sexually, and it doesn't directly affect me besides "feeling hurt," is that even valid?

 

[mountaingirl]

if her poly arrangement does not affect ME, do I have any right to establish a boundary about it?

It does affect you. If you are with a poly person, you are navigating a poly lifestyle. Even in the most separate and casual of circumstances (which it doesn't seem this is, since she's wanting to have a kid with old flame), there are situations you will experience that would not be experienced by a mono couple. It's always up to you if you want to experience them. Similar to Galagirl's "compatibility" comment; if this is something your wife really wants, you have to evaluate whether that's compatible with what YOU want.

She was/is considering having a baby outside of our relationship, and I think me saying "no" to that makes sense because it directly affects me.

right but like, again, this affects you whether she has a kid or not. y'all are married. She's not really a free agent imo, or at least if she acts as such she's not really honoring y'alls marriage. That's just what marriage means to me though, every big decision is made as a team and discussed ahead of time, even if it's only directly involving one person. For e.g., im guessing you wouldn't move across the country without talking about it with your wife first, because it would affect her even if you're the only one moving. This isn't even beginning to take into account the family you have together.

I really appreciate this. I feel like I'm the crazy one for not accepting who she is. I should have known, right? Why can I not accept her for who she is? I truly believe polyamory is an awesome thing, objectively - maybe if I just confront my own emotional biases it will work out?

Or if she is way more transparent with you, which it seems she is starting to be by telling you she wants the relationship to continue. Maybe this is just me, but an open ended "we might get intimate" with a friend would drive me crazy with the uncertainty. I'd rather hear that something is 100% going to happen. Good for you for being like water on that front, and it seems from your comments that you aren't resenting her for her decisions, even though they have hurt you. I would have left in this situation, as would my husband. But I know everyone is different and having a family changes things.
Boundaries don't have to be bad. In my experience, they're a way to protect yourself, more often than not, and to assert what it is you want. Not control over others, but control over your own life and the type of stuff you want to experience. It seems your wife has no problem doing what she wants. Perhaps think about what it is you want? That'll make it possible for negotiating/boundary conversations.

 

[mountaingirl]

But if she is leaving to spend time with someone else once a month, emotionally and sexually, and it doesn't directly affect me besides "feeling hurt," is that even valid?

Also how can you raise a kid with someone else and only see them once a month? Or is she planning on raising her and old flame's child with you? Because to say that is a really big ask is an understatement. It seems like this baby talk could be some NRE weirdness that might fade with time, but also yikes if that decision is made before she snaps out of it.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm gonna be honest.

So, my wife is not understanding or seeing how what she is doing has crossed any line or could be considered hurtful. It's my fault if I am hurt, and I'm hurting her by not allowing her to be herself.

I find this behavior annoying.

A lack of understanding, consideration, or self control on her part is HER stuff to fix. If she doesn't, and is imposing on you or hurting you, it's on you speak up and ask for changes. If none come, and you are getting damaged, it's on you to WALK AWAY-- for the rest of the day, the week, or permanently, depending on the severity.

Let's use the same example I used before. If you bring up an issue, such as:

"I don't like you punching me in the nose, wife. Please stop doing that. Don't flap around so close to me. Go flap around somewhere else so both of us can be safe."

If she says:

"I don't understand why my flappy-punchy bugs you" -- she doesn't HAVE to understand. You have made a reasonable and rational request. Either she exercises self control and stops doing it and stays nearby, or she exercises autonomy and goes elsewhere to keep on flapping about.

If she says:
- "It's your fault when I am standing here being all flappy and you get punched in the nose by me"-- that is not taking personal responsibility for how her actions could affect others. It's blame shifting.
- "I feel hurt that you won't let me flap wherever I want, even if I end up punching you"-- that's an unreasonable expectation, and rather than change it, she's flipping it around on you and making herself the victim.

Are you bumping into DARVO stuff here: deny, attack, reverse the victim order?

If she's doing junk like that, you say, "I said I don't like it." And if she won't change her behavior, YOU change yours. You get up and WALK AWAY to keep yourself safe. You don't stand there just letting her keep on flapping and punching you.

Or, "I am not interested in being poly and I do not want a third person to sleep at our house."

You don't want any poly. You don't want her poly partners spending the night in your shared home. You have a vote here, since it is a shared home. If she does want poly and wants to host sleepovers, then you and she are no longer compatible for monogamous marriage and nesting together.

You don't get to say what she does with her body. You DO get a say in the relationship model you share. So you break up. Stop nesting. Stop sharing anything. Divest yourself. Then she can be free to go do whatever she wants over THERE. And you get to be free from it over HERE.

While that is logical, if you are very latched on to her, like codependently, or as a "favorite person," or something like that, it could be very challenging for you to quit subsuming yourself to the relationship, and learn to stand on your own two feet instead, and break up.

The best person to help you work through issues like that is a therapist, not internet people.

Versus, "I don't want us to be poly and I do not want you being intimate with someone else (while in a relationship with me.)

Blue is mine. I added the unspoken missing words. You do not want polyamory. You don't get to tell her what to do with her body. If she still wants to go there:

• She can break up with you.
• You can break up with her.
• It can be a mutual break up.

Then she's not in a relationship with you and you two are not doing polyamory together.

I guess what I'm wondering is: if her poly arrangement does not affect ME, do I have any right to establish a boundary about it? She was/is considering having a baby outside of our relationship, and I think me saying "no" to that makes sense, because it directly affects me.

Yup, it affects you, because you are the spouse. If having kids with someone else is a dealbreaker, you could divorce. In some places you will be automatically listed as that baby's father on the certificate, if you're married. Probably you wouldn't want that responsibility and would prefer for the Baby Daddy to deal with her pregnancy and the child's upbringing and wellbeing.

But if she is leaving to spend time with someone else once a month, emotionally and sexually, and it doesn't directly affect me besides "feeling hurt," is that even valid?

Yes, it is valid because YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO ANY POLYAMORY AT ALL. Right now you are trying to "get okay with it," to avoid thinking about other problems and avoid thinking about a break up. You are not OBLIGATED to do polyamory just because your spouse wants to. When you got married this was NOT the deal, from the sound of it. It's okay to change the deal if you both want that. Or just say the original deal is over. No, thank you, you don't want to make any new deals.

Sigh. I encourage you to talk to your therapist about what is going on with you. You do not sound like you have a good sense of self. You sound like you have porous or weak personal boundaries.

Adding your people-pleaser tendency to that makes it easy for your wife to run right over you.

I also wonder if you are being emotionally abused. So I'm gonna put this here:

https://rhntc.org/sites/default/files/resources/fpntc_hlthy_rlshp_wheel_2019-03-01.pdf

Please talk to your therapist.

Galagirl

 

[Evie]

Still figuring this out, but I think things are getting cleared and better!

I'm curious about further thoughts on the philosophy and ethics of boundaries and ultimatums, What's an appropriate boundary?

So, my wife is not understanding or seeing how what she is doing has crossed any line or could be considered hurtful. It's my fault if I am hurt, and I'm hurting her by not allowing her to be herself.

No, she's feeling hurt by being unable to be fully and authentically herself, but she could go and do that without you. She could leave. Right now, it sounds like she's waiting to see if you are able to deal with opening up your marriage, but I suspect this will eventually result in her leaving.

I can understand a boundary in which I say, "I don't want to go to this restaurant anymore." But is it an appropriate boundary to say, "I would feel uncomfortable if you go to this restaurant and I don't want you to go either."?

It's not actually a restaurant though, is it? You would feel uncomfortable if she had a baby with someone else while you are in a relationship and you don't want her to. Because it's not a few hours with a nice meal, it's a lifetime with a dependent human being. If she pursues this, I suspect it will eventually result in you leaving.

Or, "I am not interested in being poly and I do not want a third person to sleep at our house." Versus, "I don't want us to be poly and I do not want you being intimate with someone else.

At the heart of it, regardless of wording, they are both boundaries because if they are crossed, there will be consequences. The former statement still allows room for a mono-poly relationship that is conducted away from your home. The latter doesn't allow for polyamory at all while you are together, but you have the right to not be in a relationship with a polyamorous person. You can leave if she wants polyamory and you don't. She can find other people to be polyamorous with.

I guess what I'm wondering: if her poly arrangement does not affect ME, do I have any right to establish a boundary about it? She was/is considering having a baby outside of our relationship, and I think me saying "no" to that makes sense because it directly affects me.

Again to the restaurant. Her going there doesn't affect you, you can't "ban" her from going but of course you can choose not to go to the same one. But you're right, a baby definitely affects you. You can't "ban" her from having a baby, but you can remove yourself from the situation. That's what enforcing your own boundaries are. You're allowed to leave a relationship that isn't working for you.

But if she is leaving to spend time with someone else once a month, emotionally and sexually, and it doesn't directly affect me besides "feeling hurt," is that even valid?

If it's diminishing your quality of life in the big picture, if you can't adjust to this as a new normal, if your mental health is tanking because of this, then it's valid that you can remove yourself from the situation/leave the relationship. In many ways, this is an ultimatum. Effectively there is a large element of, "if you continue on this trajectory, I will leave" - ultimatums have been long demonized as they are generally weaponized to control the other person/s. But there's really not a lot of difference between stating a boundary and giving an ultimatum, it's really just splitting hairs because ending a relationship is generally an unpleasant experience. From the Cambridge dictionary:

ultimatum
noun [ C ]



a threat in which a person or group of people are warned that if they do not do a particular thing, something unpleasant will happen to them. It is usually the last and most extreme in a series of actions taken to bring about a particular result:

• He gave her an ultimatum - she could either stop seeing Peter and come back to him or it was divorce.
• On Wednesday night the UN issued its toughest ultimatum to date, demanding that all troops withdraw from the city.

"I don't want to be in an open relationship, and if you do, I will leave to free me from having to be in one and free you to be able to find people who want the same as you do." The wording is slightly gentler, but it's still "it's him or me".

 

[kdt26417]

Hi hbarsquared,

I believe that boundaries (and the occasional ultimatum) are highly personal things, and what's an appropriate boundary for one person, is not appropriate for another person. It all depends on what one thinks one can stand, and on what one can't stand.

Your boundaries are yours. Your wife does not get to dictate to you what boundaries you are allowed to have. If something is more than you can bear, then that is a boundary for you -- full stop. Your wife of course can have her own boundaries, and maybe the two of you have simply arrived at a place where you can't agree.

It would be a little weird to have a boundary where you said, "I don't want you to go to that restaurant anymore." But, if for whatever reason, that is something that if they did it you couldn't stand it -- well, then you have a boundary there, it is one of your limits. Doesn't matter how odd it may be. And maybe they would have a boundary where they said, "I don't want to be told I can't go to that restaurant." If they can't stand to be told that, then maybe you and they have arrived at a point where you just can't agree.

The same goes for boundaries about polyamory. You know what you can and can't stand. If there's something you can't stand, then that is a boundary for you -- full stop. Doesn't matter whether it's "fair to her." It's your boundary. If she has a boundary that clashes with it, that is actually okay too, and maybe the two of you have just arrived at a place where you can't agree. That's nobody's fault, nobody is to blame. It's just a "no deal" situation.

See the thing is, her poly arrangement does affect you. It affects how you feel. Even if you "shouldn't" be affected by it -- you are affected by it. It's something you have to live with, and hence, it constitutes a boundary. Doesn't matter whether it's "fair" to her. It's what you feel, and you can't choose those feelings.

It's not about having a "right" to have this or that boundary. It's about whether a certain boundary already exists for you. By stating the boundary, you are simply giving it a voice. It was already there before you stated it.

That's my take on it anyway.
Kevin T.