Not on same page about bisexual wife exploring polyamory
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straighthusbandbiwife
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For the (admittedly failed) attempt at brevity, I was trying to simplify. I feel like this is getting all jargony but my actual perspective is that the spectrum goes from co-dependence/enmeshment to independence/autonomy with interdependence/self-differentiation as a kind of middle ground or middle-way. So, yes, my actual goal for marriage is a synthesis of interdependence and self-differentiation.
Since I've made clear throughout this thread that I'm a Christian, I'll give an example from that world. We give from our joint checking account to financially support our local church and we attend the major weekly worship service together (interdependent), but she attends a women's small group that's pretty much a group of middle-class women in their late-20s to mid-40s talking a lot about motherhood, feminism, art, gardening, and whatever else from a distinctly Christian perspective while I lead a mixed gender, and usually lower socio-economic, small group that's got a vulnerable and gritty vibe to it and is essentially a support group for hurts, habits, and hangups (self-differentiation). We're mindful of one another's wants/needs and we mutually try to support one another in those, especially with a baby now in the picture, but we also recognize that our perspectives differ as do our wants/needs. We're interdependent in that we're both socially rooted in local faith community but we're self-differentiated in how we serve and how we get served.
Don't know if that's a solid example or not, but that's my general outlook.
So, in our case, the overwhelming majority of our hobbies and interests actually overlap. Maybe she likes Captain Marvel more and I like Winter Soldier more, but we're both Marvel nerds. Maybe she likes ping pong a little more and I like pool a little more, but our billiard room has a pool table with a ping pong topper and we enjoy competitively playing both. There are a few exceptions of things she loves and I hate like horror movies so she'll watch them with her friends just as I love Risk and she hates it so I'll play that with my friends, but we both really enjoy movies and board games. We just enjoy spending a lot of time together, which works out since we're both Quality Time as our #1 love language. And she's an introvert while I'm an ambivert, but we tend to intuitively want alone time around the same time. Of course, she's also musical while I can't play/sing a lick and I love a vigorous conversation about epistemology while she doesn't know the first thing about philosophy... Anyway, I'm baggin' what you're mowin'.
Yes.
To be honest, most of our hobbies do overlap and our friends tend to really like our spouses.
I grew up within the evangelical world with the "Billy Graham Rule" (now called the "Mike Pence Rule") where men and women shouldn't spend time alone together cause it may lead to a physical/emotional affair AND it may be perceived by someone as inappropriate, which I now think is horseshit. That means I can't have much influence from over half of the world's population, which seems unhealthy, especially for a guy who cherishes and promotes gender equality. That's why in recent years I've been consciously developing platonic friendships with females. But since I'm more socially outgoing, my wife kinda sneaks in when they come over and starts befriending them. Before I know it, that friend from the Meetup event I attended is suddenly more my wife's friends than mine AND they want to be careful to have boundaries and not to talk about certain things because they know both of us so well. So, it's kinda funny but I've actually had to tell my wife, "I need you to let me have my own platonic female friends who you're not allowed to befriend. Yes, please be friendly but I want these to remain as primarily my friends. Get your own." Anyway, yeah, I strongly encourage wifey to pursue her own hobbies and have her own platonic friends but, yes, I draw the line as sexual partners that don't overlap.
^ I feel "seen" and "understood." That's precisely it. Thank you.
OK, there's so much there and I need to go take care of the baby. For now I'll say this:
My wife grew up in not only a dysfunctional home but a toxic home with a mom suffering from (then) undiagnosed and untreated Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD). I don't mean to take any pot shots at serious mental health issues, but her mom was and is a psycho. Off the charts control freak, which is why they're not estranged. Her mom refused to respect basic boundaries, so that was that. Anyway, everyone in her family of origin (including and especially her dad) learned that it was better to ask forgiveness than permission. It was easier to withhold information and play things close to the vest. That's why communication was so difficult early in our marriage. She had to learn to trust me, to make a habit of opening up to share her thoughts and feelings, to care about someone else outside of herself (Oh, the stories I could tell from our first year of marriage!), to make major decisions that impact both of our lives together, and to simply see compromise as a virtue instead of a vice. To quote Yoda, "You must unlearn what you have learned." That was wife.
Through many conversations, a shit ton of trauma therapy, and a shit ton of couples' therapy, we've made incredible progress in these areas. Yet wifey's default is still to lean into independence and autonomy. Early on she kept telling our therapist that I was being sooooooooo controlling, but when the therapist got specific examples she said, "Um, dear, this man is more supportive of you and more open to creative solutions than almost any husband I've ever met. He just wants to know what you're thinking and feeling, be included in the decision-making process, and make sure there's reciprocity in how you compromise. You married a gem." (<-- true story) For example, when I wanted to also test-drive the certified pre-owned Toyota to make sure there was enough head room before we bought it. It was going to be her car, and I was down with her getting the vehicle that she wanted, but I just wanted her to take into account my height before we purchased. (It ended up not being a problem at all.) She cited that as an example of being controlling. The therapist just laughed and set her straight.
Still I think that autonomous default persists in some areas. When it comes to her bisexuality, it's like she just wants to pursue this as though she's not married because, while she makes emphatically clear that she doesn't regret marrying me she does regret getting married so young before exploring this stuff herself. Ironically, she also recognizes that she never would've considered even a vibrator or porn without my influence, so she never would've seen this stuff as plausible options without me, either. It's one helluva Catch-22. I think she's just having trouble giving up the life that could've been, ya know?
Because I read the books and mentally-emotionally went down that path, we talked in therapy about the idea of us both having partners. She was initially hesitant about the idea of us both having separate lovers. To her mind, I'm straight so she fulfills all of my romantic and sexual needs but she's bi so I only fulfill half of hers. I told her that I understood her perspective and why that math makes sense to her, but the reality is she's still enjoy more sex partners and that's crap. Eventually (i.e. 9-10 months) she came around to believing that would be unfair and anything we'd do would need to be reciprocated entirely. But the more I thought through all of that, the less interest I became. The sheer intellectual curiosity of it had me intrigued/fascinated early as almost a case study in cultural anthropology, but the more I dug into the practical logistical realities of what this would mean for our lives together the less I had any interest in pursuing it in real life.
Sorry. I'm rambling. Did I answer your question? If not, please restate and I'll do my best to answer better.
Thank you!
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straighthusbandbiwife
Member
I know, but this is actually helping me a ton to process through this stuff in-detail. Let me know if I'm violating the unwritten social etiquette and I'll adapt accordingly, but on my end I'm actually enjoying the process despite the hard work. (Have I mentioned that I'm a published author? lol I rather enjoy writing words.)
If it helps you carry on. You might even consider a blog thread at
if you want less comments.
Just don't wear yourself out, you know? You are going thru a lot and you have to take care of a baby too.
GG
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if you want less comments.
Just don't wear yourself out, you know? You are going thru a lot and you have to take care of a baby too.
GG
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Marcus
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To me, this is the only response to this issue.
When both sides want something all or nothing, and neither side is willing to give in, it's time to re-frame the association into a format that reflects the actual people involved. Getting stuck on the marriage configuration and treating it as if it is holy is an error in judgment.
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She regrets getting married so young and wants to behave, romantically and sexually, like a single person, with complete autonomy.
That type of autonomy works for my marriage, but my husband and I are quite a bit older and have a different world view. I very much understand that it's not what you want.
What I'm not seeing, largely because you're the one telling the story, is where your wife is making compromises. You've tabled the queer platonic scenario and she's worried she'll still fall in love with that person. That's a fair call. What she does if she develops feelings could be a useful discussion.
She could not act on those feelings, like you don't, but kindly so she doesn't just end up causing harm to that other person.
That type of autonomy works for my marriage, but my husband and I are quite a bit older and have a different world view. I very much understand that it's not what you want.
What I'm not seeing, largely because you're the one telling the story, is where your wife is making compromises. You've tabled the queer platonic scenario and she's worried she'll still fall in love with that person. That's a fair call. What she does if she develops feelings could be a useful discussion.
She could not act on those feelings, like you don't, but kindly so she doesn't just end up causing harm to that other person.
straighthusbandbiwife
Member
Sure. In my first marriage, I got married at 20. Yes, that's again. Again, I grew up fundamentalist and if you want to have sex... there ya go. (There were other reasons to get married. I genuinely did love her, but obviously I concede that was stupid in retrospect.) We were married for just under a decade. The divorce went through when I was 30. I'd already known my second wife for two years. We were close friends. By the time the divorce finalized, I was more than ready to go. I'd done years and years of therapy, then pastoral care and two years of divorce support groups. I'd felt like the married was DONE 5 years earlier, but held out for a miracle. Anyway, I asked out my now wife within a few weeks of the divorce finalizing, so I was still 30. She was 23. We dated for 12 months, then got married 6 months later. (At this point, I was out of fundamentalism but since within conservative Christianity. Yes, there is a difference.) When we got married, I was 32 and she was 25. Now I'm 37 and she's 30.
straighthusbandbiwife
Member
I don't want to misrepresent her. She says things like, "I very much want to be married! I love you you with all my heart, am loyally committed to this marriage, and am excited to grow old with you. I just also want to date women to truly explore my bisexuality. It's my fault for not being self-aware and realizing this before I got married, but I have now. This is something I feel like I need." When I ask her to describe what specifically she feels she needs, it starts to sound like complete autonomy (at least) one night a week and pretty much unconstrained freedom to talk/text as much as she wants the rest of the week.
Understood. And thank you.
I'm not entirely sure myself. That's why I've explicitly asked this question alone and in therapy. She gets uncharacteristically upset right away, like I'm being a) controlling and b) ungrateful. Each time she brings up how she lets me swing. However, I've pointed out to her that I'd be comfortable stopping the swinging at any time AND we only swing with couples who have a bisexual female that she finds attractive. So, it's not like this isn't also something she wanted in the past and wants to continue in the future. The only reason I went down that path was to support her, but now it's like she's framing it as though the swinging is for me and the polyamory would be for her... Does that make sense? The thing is, she wants to swing something like 3-4 times a year tops but she wants to be poly 365 days a year. That math doesn't add up to me nor does this idea that the swinging is somehow really more for me, anyway.
We try to steer clear of "tit-for-tat" style negotiating in our marriage, but I honestly cannot perceive how there's much balance between the two of us. To me it kinda feels like how for Valentine's Day the cultural expectation is for the man to give a card, chocolates, and flowers and the woman is just supposed to (sorry to be crass) put out. Um, what? How is that fair? Both sides are getting pleasureful sex. Why does he have to invest the extra bit and she doesn't? My #2 love language is Words of Affirmation. I appreciate a card with some heartfelt words, too.
Anyway, does that make sense?
Agreed.
That's what I've encouraged.
straighthusbandbiwife
Member
"Don't allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good" has become one of my life philosophies. I think it chalked full of wisdom. Honestly, I've just seen too much of my friends and family make impulsive life decisions where they filed for divorced, left a job, moved across the country, had another kid, bought the car or house they couldn't really afford... all because they assumed the grass was greener on the other side. Quite often it's not and they just jacked up their whole life because they couldn't regulate their emotions long enough to slow down, take a deep breath, think clearly, consider the possible outcomes, and make a wise decision.
Yes, I do have an existential belief to, as Thoreau put it, "live deeply and suck the marow out of life." Absolutely. But that's always held in tension with what my uncle taught me: "There's a lot of intelligent idiots in this world. People who have natural intelligence but they make all sorts of dumb choices because they don't use what's between their ears. Don't be an intelligent idiot." So, yeah, life is seldom perfect. Sometimes we don't always get exactly what we want or even what we need, but it can still be pretty damn great and we work hard and do the best with the opportunities we do have. I believe creative thrives under constraints. And now, as a dad, I have a whole other set of values to honor.
Marcus
Well-known member
So she told you exactly what she wants, and you said you aren't up for it.
Have you come away from this thread with a new plan of action?
straighthusbandbiwife
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FYI - I'm quite intentionally not rushing to resolution nor a plan of action. To put it in Myers-Briggs language, I'm a P instead of a J. In the wisdom of Ecclesiastes, there's a time for everything under the sun. There's a time to take decisive action, yes, but there's also a time for slow reflection. By that I mean a time to ask for feedback, listen carefully, ponder what is said, and sit in that discomfort. That's what I'm doing here.
Marcus
Well-known member
So she is fulfilling her polyamory need while you are sorting out how you feel about it?
I think that's a good idea, to give it a minute and make sure that you understand your feelings while at the same time not asking her to restrict her behavior. Rushing into a decision can lead us to odd outcomes for sure.
straighthusbandbiwife
Member
She's not moving forward with polyamory at this time and, unless something changes my mind, it's unlikely we'll ever do so.
Marcus
Well-known member
That's a pretty comfortable position to be patient from, for you.
How is she contending with this reality? She must be disappointed.
straighthusbandbiwife
Member
As I said in the OP:
"I feel like I've already pushed myself to the maximum I'm willing and able to go. While being a swinger has been wonderful and fulfilling in many unexpected ways, the truth is this transition into non-monogamy has also been acutely difficult for me. I'm a pretty cerebral guy. This has required me to not only rethink my values and worldview, but to potentially jeopardize my professional life. I've sincerely tried to be loving of my wife and supportive of her felt-need to explore/express her bisexuality but, as we explicitly agreed before going down this road, I really have no desire whatever to rebuild my whole life about this lifestyle. I'm not judging how anyone else lives, but for me non-monogamy is something to secretly do from time and time and not a way of life."
Comfortable for me? For five years, I've continuously pushed my limits outside of my comfort zone and made compromises I never thought I'd make in order to be understanding and supportive. That is not a pretty comfortable position.
Marcus
Well-known member
I'm sure that her capitulating to your stance has been very challenging for you, but you recognize the reality that the current end result is that she has given up what she wants (polyamory), and you have gotten exactly what you want (not polyamory)?
How is she handling it? Does she have someone to talk to about it?
straighthusbandbiwife
Member
It's obvious you're bringing a rhetorically challenging energy to this thread when that is not at all the vibe I'm looking for. In recent years I've butted heads with a number of guys who do that, and it seldom if ever ends well. So, I won't be engaging you further. Peace.
SEASONEDpolyAgain
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You should to tell the therapist that she is being unethical and she needs to respect boundaries.
SEASONEDpolyAgain
Well-known member
She can leave the relationship, Marcus. This is not the ethical way to go about this and with a therapist on board to boot
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