Not on same page about bisexual wife exploring polyamory

[Evie]

but now it's like she's framing it as though the swinging is for me and the polyamory would be for her... Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. You started swinging as a way for her to experience women sexually.

She now wants more than that.

You don't.

She's saying that staying in the same place is for your benefit but will stifle her being able to be her authentic self.

You feel pushed.

She feels restrained.

Is this really going to resolve, or as Gala said, does your relationship need redefining.

Btw, how old is your wife? I'm guessing there's an age gap between you two since this is your second marriage after a fairly long first one. Are you kinda hoping she'll "grow out of it"?

 

[ref2018]

Btw, how old is your wife? I'm guessing there's an age gap between you two since this is your second marriage after a fairly long first one. Are you kinda hoping she'll "grow out of it"?

From OP's earlier post:

When we got married, I was 32 and she was 25. Now I'm 37 and she's 30.

She's at the point when you realize that how you used to be is not who you are anymore.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know if this helps you process any, straighthusbandbiwife.

You sound pretty busy thinking things out and the money is running out for therapy. You all are in the pressure cooker.

I'm not trying to add to your burdens. But have you considered this yet?

From Post #1 --

Having been repressed by her Purity Culture background, I was my wife's first everything: going out on a date, holding hands, kissing, making out, having sex, etc. Shortly after we got married, she slowly came to realize she's bisexual.

So you have been married for about 5 years and most of that time struggling with this.

From Post #28 --

Sure. In my first marriage, I got married at 20. Yes, that's again. Again, I grew up fundamentalist and if you want to have sex... there ya go. (There were other reasons to get married. I genuinely did love her, but obviously I concede that was stupid in retrospect.) We were married for just under a decade. The divorce went through when I was 30. I'd already known my second wife for two years. We were close friends. By the time the divorce finalized, I was more than ready to go. I'd done years and years of therapy, then pastoral care and two years of divorce support groups. I'd felt like the married was DONE 5 years earlier, but held out for a miracle. Anyway, I asked out my now wife within a few weeks of the divorce finalizing, so I was still 30. She was 23. We dated for 12 months, then got married 6 months later. (At this point, I was out of fundamentalism but since within conservative Christianity. Yes, there is a difference.) When we got married, I was 32 and she was 25. Now I'm 37 and she's 30.

Has it occurred to you that while that one was YOUR first marriage? And you were coming out of fundamentalism wanting to share sex, explore, etc? And marriage was the only path to do that? And you went there and it did not pan out? Note how it was 5 years in that you were done in your head... though it took 5 more years to actually cut ties.

You are YOUR WIFE'S first marriage. And you too may have been the only available path at the time to date and explore. Plus... she was leaving a controlling sounding family of origin in her 20s and getting out from under the influence of odd sounding "foster family" who stepped in as parent surrogates.

The 20s *IS* the age for "autonomy and independence." When young adults are supposed to leave the nest. So maybe she's still on that because she didn't get to finish that stage of life very well. So maybe hasn't moved on yet to interdependence thinking. You are 7 years older than her. You are in a different place/outlook.

And here you are... 5 years in with THIS marriage.

The proverbial "7 year itch" thing in a marriage is really more like 4 years. Has your couple therapist pointed that out? The 7 year/4 year itch itch thing? When a new marriage hits the "make it or not" tough spot?

Maybe made even tougher and compounded by all the other things? She realized shortly after marriage she's bisexual... and she's having to figure out who she really is. Stuff one usually does in the teens and 20s... Becoming your OWN person, developing your internal authority, becoming YOU.... only she's coming to it a bit later due to circumstances with the family of origin.

You both are unpacking religion stuff that no longer fits you. Then your dad got sick, she was dealing with some major medical problems. Then therapy stress and swinging stress, and OMG, being "out" or not as swingers stress. Add pandemic stress , your career being "on hold" and uncertain, you adjusting to the challenges of SAHD stuff.... it just goes on and on. It's been a lot of chronic stress!

And how old is the baby? Could there also be post partum depression going on?

I get wanting to cling to the one bright spot -- the marriage.

From Post #36 --

For five years, I've continuously pushed my limits outside of my comfort zone and made compromises I never thought I'd make in order to be understanding and supportive. That is not a pretty comfortable position.

And yet... you are now at max limit and can do no more.

You have already clocked 5 years of struggle in the marriage. I'm sure there have been happy times, otherwise you wouldn't want to hang on to this marriage. But nonethelss, 5 years of struggle on this. I hope you aren't going to clock ten years like you did with your first marriage.

Maybe you are coming to this problem largely intellectually, logically. You want things to make SENSE.

Wife might be coming at it intuitively, she want things to FEEL RIGHT. Plus, she's never been great at articulating/communicating or talking about her feelings. And if she's mostly logical, she may not even TRUST her feelings. Yet here they are.

AND you are the first serious relationship ever... so she's never had a serious break up before to help guide her.

AND she might be feeling horrible because she didn't know she was bisexual sooner.

AND you are like this shining star person -- minister who is doing the SAHD thing and church volunteering when his church is not paying him any more and his career is uncertain, doing therapy with her, trying to be supportive, etc.

When she says you are being "controlling" when she might mean "I feel restrained in this marriage...." If the therapist laughs at her like she's some "silly little girl" and "sets her straight" about how much of a gem you are? Rather than probing to help her articulate what she means? The therapist might be making her feel worse/more shame. While you grow impatient seeking "what else can we do!?"

This might not be the right couple therapist, dude.

To reach better understanding, you might have to start looking for the feelings behind the words, and not get stuck on the actual words.
You both could be asking in therapy "Ok. Now repeat what I just said in your own words. So I know you got it how I mean it" or "Ok. Let me repeat back what I heard in my own words. You tell me if I got what you meant right or not."

I wish this therapist was helping you both better.

Has the therapist even asked -- "Is this even an actual poly problem? Wife, are you trying use to poly as "the answer" or like "a band-aid" to hold the marriage together? Are you hearing husband doesn't want any poly? Occasional swinging is as far into non-monogamy as he can go?"

Poly is just this whole side trip conversation that's wasting time/money that you don't have. You could be firmer at your next appointment and move the conversation forward. I certainly hope you do since you seem to have made up your mind on that part at least.

"Look, I've done what was asked of me. I've considered. I think poly is fine for other people. I don't want any for me. Now what?"

If the actual problem is that she got married too young? She wants to be able to be single and explore bisexual dating life? And you were the game changing relationship that made her realize all that? Well, so it is.

NOW what?

Could get the "main conversation" back on track in couple therapy instead of all these "polyamory" side trip things.

If wife discovered she is bisexual AND polyamorous... well, she can sort all that out with her individual therapist.

Deciding what to do about the marriage part when you are firm YOU don't want poly? That track gets clearer for you with the couple therapist.

It's not ideal, I know. To kinda trim sails and get your couple therapy moving a little faster. But what are you gonna do when the money is running out? You can't keep 3 therapists on tab forever! That gets expensive when you are all on her salary only now.

In all this writing and thinking? If you are going to talk to wife about changing couple therapists? You might consider condensing the highlights so you can get on with it with a new couple therapist.

This is where you have been.

This is the main issue.

This is where you would like to be:

• Liveable, if not ideal desired outcome. (Because we can't always get what we want, and I know you don't want it and you won't be the one filing at City Hall if it comes to this. It would have to be her. But could talk about what being a healthy divorced family would look like. For sure you don't want to be one of the wackadoo ones. You have had enough stress!)
  
  
• Ok desired outcome. (Would that mean changing denominations or career for you? Like you consider UU minister or LGBTQ+ educator that might be more accepting of you having a bisexual wife with another partner? So that stressor of "being out affecting my job" is removed?)
  
  
• Better desired outcome
  
  
• Best desired outcome

This is what you have tried already.

These things you will NOT do.

These are things wife will NOT do.

These things you might do.

These are things wife might do.

Do they have ideas or help to offer?

You have such complex layers... I don't think internet people are going to be able to help you. It needs a professional counselor. But the RIGHT one. YKWIM? I don't know if you could access free counseling to help with the budget. Sometimes university students provide free counseling so they get practice in the field and you get help for free or low cost. Could check around.

I really sympathize with you. It's such a tough spot to be in.

I don't know how this is all going to work out in the end, but I hope your couple therapy gets better than it has been. I hope your individual therapy is supporting you ok. And I hope you feel a little better for airing out.

I am reading. I do SEE you in your struggle. Maybe that's a small comfort. People here do SEE and HEAR you.

Hang in there.
Galagirl

 

[straighthusbandbiwife]

Yes, it makes sense. You started swinging as a way for her to experience women sexually.

Thank you.

She now wants more than that.

You don't.

Correct.

She's saying that staying in the same place is for your benefit but will stifle her being able to be her authentic self.

Except that I'd be perfectly content ending the swinging. Hard to say this is for me when I could take it or leave it, right?

You feel pushed.

She feels restrained.

Yes, I believe that's accurate. Yet I don't think see how anything less than a laissez-faire (i.e. throw this thing open to whatever) relationship approach is restrained. It's the same thing in economics or politics when people say that anything other than an absolute free market is socialism and anything less than absolute libertarian freedom is tyranny. I'm sorry but that of thinking is just stupid. That whole framework, whether in marriage or economics or politics or religion or whatever else, is quite simply premised upon a logical fallacy: false dichotomy. I'm happy to talk about this stuff in terms of a spectrum with complexity and nuance, but I cannot abide this black and white framework.

BTW, to anyone reading this (including and especially Evie) who might think I'm being a heartless, intellectual bastard, please know that my wife is uber-rational. Even more than me! I'm the humanities guy and she's the STEM girl. She's only now working on integrating feelings more into a holistic life schema. When I try to talk feelings, she's usually the one who brings up facts, logic, etc. It's a big part of how and why our marriage works so well most of the time. Also, this is just a lot of the stuff that I need to process through to be internally at peace. I'm the kinda guy where you usually get to my heart via my head.

Is this really going to resolve, or as Gala said, does your relationship need redefining.

IF by redefining you mean divorce and close friendship while co-parenting, then that's not on the table. I ain't goin' there.

Btw, how old is your wife? I'm guessing there's an age gap between you two since this is your second marriage after a fairly long first one. Are you kinda hoping she'll "grow out of it"?

Just copying and pasting what I wrote to MeeraReed to save time:

Sure. In my first marriage, I got married at 20. Yes, that's [young]. Again, I grew up fundamentalist and if you want to have sex... there ya go. (There were other reasons to get married. I genuinely did love her, but obviously I concede that was stupid in retrospect.) We were married for just under a decade. The divorce went through when I was 30. I'd already known my second wife for two years. We were close friends. By the time the divorce finalized, I was more than ready to go. I'd done years and years of therapy, then pastoral care and two years of divorce support groups. I'd felt like the married was DONE 5 years earlier, but held out for a miracle. Anyway, I asked out my now wife within a few weeks of the divorce finalizing, so I was still 30. She was 23. We dated for 12 months, then got married 6 months later. (At this point, I was out of fundamentalism but since within conservative Christianity. Yes, there is a difference.) When we got married, I was 32 and she was 25. Now I'm 37 and she's 30.

 

[Marcus]

She's at the point when you realize that how you used to be is not who you are anymore.

Well said; sometimes people have big shifts in what they perceive as their "good life". While it can be an inconvenience for the people around them, realizing and exploring the new reality is paramount to understanding who we are and what we are made of.

Personally I'm glad for her, it sounds like she has shined a light on something important in her life and is making some big discoveries. In a perfect world everyone involved would need to adjust their expectations to line up with reality, and a more appropriate configuration would be adopted. Unfortunately for her she's hit a brick wall and I don't think she's going to get to live her life unless she changes up the roster. I doubt that'll happen, but I'm rooting for her.

 

[Magdlyn]

I hear that you are sincere and really want to make this work, somehow, against all odds.

I saw your list of shared hobbies. But "it's just this one thing..." May I suggest it's not just one thing? I.e.:

SEX. ROMANCE. BISEXUALITY. LACK OF QUALITY TIME. FORMER CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM. GETTING FIRED (NOT JUST LAID OFF) IF CHURCH FINDS OUT WIFE IS "ETHICAL SLUT." BRAND NEW BABY THAT NEEDS 24/7 CARE. WIFE WHO ISN'T GREAT AT EXPRESSING EMOTIONS. PTSD. CONTROL ISSUES. WIFE "STEALING" YOUR PLATONIC FEMALE FRIENDS. DEEP CHURCH VOLUNTEER INVOLVEMENT. BABY (AGAIN) WHO NEEDS 24/7 CARE. WIFE STRESSFUL CAREER. COVID. YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT. FAILED FORMER MARRIAGE BURNS.

Those issues stand out to me. Let's just add in you're a preacher and an author and maybe be guilty of a little mansplaining action. That's just a guess, but it seems to me that with YEARS of couples therapy, and the evidence of the energy and time you've taken to write here, despite that baby crying in the background, you enjoy talking. Your wife isn't great at expressing herself, she married you just past childhood, she was pretty fucked up, you admit. And yet, a tiny needy baby is now in the picture, and NOW it's time to swing and practice poly, and despite the demand of career and baby, she wants to date a couple times a week AND text and have phone calls any old time?

Having had a career in child advocacy, I think of the children first, always. It seems like wife isn't much interested in the kid. She's barely begun to heal from her own deep childhood trauma, after all. Many, if not most, poly couples put dating (new) others way on the back burner of the stove when the kids are young and needy. This may be until they are past their mid teens, eg., college age. Some poly people have established OSOs prior to the kids being born. That can work out much better. But that's not the case here.

One more thing that hasn't been covered here, besides the idea of starting to date when you have an infant, is the idea that being a pastor is your only career possibility. You may want to consider taking courses and looking in another direction. If you stay with your truly bi and poly wife, and are constantly living in fear of job loss, you could reduce your stress if you were in a career where polyamory would not be an issue.

Feel free to take or leave anything I've said. I'd just like to point out that you're speaking here to kind and experienced poly people. Marcus is not more "rhetorical" than you. You're appealing to logic and emotions like any good rhetorician. Maybe more to the emotions, even (and I'm thinking of my Plato here). I have undertaken a good deal of research into theology and philosophy and history as an adult. I left my first choice of an art career for more practical remunerative fields.

I am 65 and have been practicing poly since 1999. I was in a relationship with a man as if I were a straight monogamous person for 20 of our 30 years. We had SO MUCH IN COMMON. IT WAS JUST THIS ONE THING.

We didn't start to dabble in poly (for me to explore my bi side... sigh...) until the kids were mid-to-late teens.

We divorced when we were 53 and 55. (It wasn't just the poly issues, we'd grown apart in other ways too.) I almost immediately met a poly pansexual female partner who shared just as many, if not more, of my hobbies and... there wasn't JUST THIS ONE THING preventing our full happiness and compatibility.

 

[Inaniel]

This sounds like a difficult situation for all parties involved. I should probably keep my opinions to myself… But here I am. The situation with the therapist sounds uncomfortable, almost like a two against one situation, it sounds inappropriate. Of course, we are only hearing one side of the story and you could be manipulating the facts, for all we know…

Autonomy is an overarching theme in polyamory. And something I ponder often. I think absolute autonomy is perhaps an ideal that few of us achieve. I think it is easier to achieve when you can set up a relationship from the beginning with minimal entanglements. However, a therapist talking about autonomy without broaching the topic of disentanglement seems unrealistic, and perhaps a ploy to get you to bend into a pretzel. I am very skeptical of the notion that someone in your position, (married with children, shared finances, career and social pressure from reference group ect…) Can achieve “autonomy”, without disentanglement ~ at least in the way I have come to understand the term…

Divorce would be a catalyst for disentanglement and autonomy would follow. And that is why it has been suggested here, as it often is when the community feels as though couples are at an impasse. I tend to see life as a continuum of negotiations, sometimes I ask for things that may not be reasonable to one person, yet someone else is happy to provide. You have been negotiating for 5 years, and you have reached your wall. You are under no obligation to continue negotiations when it has devolved to beating a dead horse. Your wife is under no obligation to settle on terms she is unhappy with. From here, either one of you bends for the other or you disentangle from each other. I see no reason to keep paying the therapist.

 

[straighthusbandbiwife]

She's at the point when you realize that how you used to be is not who you are anymore.

I mean, yes, I absolutely agree with that. Life is a journey of natural human growth and development. My favorite historical figure is actually Abraham Lincoln not because he ended slavery or whatever but because, for all of his flaws, he had a seemingly endless capacity for this. Please understand when I say that I've endured a very long shitstorm because I'm going through this process myself and my former social network did not approve. Examples: leaving fundamentalism, getting divorced, dating so quickly afterward, synthesizing my Christian faith with certain Buddhist meditative practices, getting a tattoo arm sleeve, getting into cannabis a bit, becoming a Blue Dog Democrat, getting into the urban gardening movement, being a staunch supporter of social justice and non-violence, becoming affirming of the LGBTQIA+ community, etc. Who I was at 27 was radically different than the Alex P. Keaton-style Rush Limbaugh Dittohead I was at 17 and who I am at 37 is radically different than the guy I was at 27. So, yes, I 1,000% understand the need to grow and develop as a person.

AT THE SAME TIME, life isn't tabula rasa. That is, we're not blank slates. For better or worse, the decisions we made in the past impact the options that are available in the present. I try to take a kind of Yin and Yang approach to this stuff, but I firmly believe there needs to be health balance and harmony between the individual and the community, between stability and excitment, between responsibility and adventure, between standing commitments and personal growth. I cannot tell you how much I've done to support and encourage my wife in her journey, which she has acknowledged to our therapist. But at this point I feel like she's fundamentalist-switching. It's like when someone leaves the hardcore right-wing, Republican proselytizing Baptists and becomes a hardcore left-wing, Democratic proselytizing Atheists. It's the same mindset but just a different set of fundamentals. It really seems like she's moving from one black and white paradigm to another black and white paradigm. That is my issue. And I'm getting tired of acting like the only options are one extreme or the other. Again, it's just a whole worldview premised upon a false dichotomy, which drives me bonkers.

 

[straighthusbandbiwife]

I hear that you are sincere and really want to make this work, somehow, against all odds.

Yup. Thank you.

I saw your list of shared hobbies. But "it's just this one thing..." May I suggest it's not just one thing? I.e.:

SEX. ROMANCE. BISEXUALITY. LACK OF QUALITY TIME. FORMER CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM. GETTING FIRED (NOT JUST LAID OFF) IF CHURCH FINDS OUT WIFE IS "ETHICAL SLUT." BRAND NEW BABY THAT NEEDS 24/7 CARE. WIFE WHO ISN'T GREAT AT EXPRESSING EMOTIONS. PTSD. CONTROL ISSUES. WIFE "STEALING" YOUR PLATONIC FEMALE FRIENDS. DEEP CHURCH VOLUNTEER INVOLVEMENT. BABY (AGAIN) WHO NEEDS 24/7 CARE. WIFE STRESSFUL CAREER. COVID. YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT. FAILED FORMER MARRIAGE BURNS.

Well, when you put it like that... lol

Alright. You officially convinced me. Much love. Thank you.

Those issues stand out to me. Let's just add in you're a preacher and an author and maybe be guilty of a little mansplaining action.

FYI - I'm being far more direct here because I feel like it's a safe space to truly let my guard down, focus like a freakin' laser, and sincerely wrestle with this stuff without having to do all the interpersonal sensitivity stuff that is required for healthy relationships during face-to-face conversations. While in person I tend to lean heavily into curiosity and listening. Again, I'm just using this opportunity to use a different approach.

That's just a guess, but it seems to me that with YEARS of couples therapy, and the evidence of the energy and time you've taken to write here, despite that baby crying in the background, you enjoy talking.

The whole introversion vs. extroversion is commonly misunderstood, right? It's not about being shy vs. gregarious, but about what charges or depletes your batteries. For me as an ambivert, house remodeling projects (which I do) and conversations about the weather (which I do) deplete my battery, time alone reading and writing slowly charges my battery, and meaningful conversation quickly charges my battery. So, the reality is that in my day-to-day life I don't get a whole lot of those meaningful conversations I crave. It's baby crying, house projects, chores, conversations about The Falcon vs. the Winter Soldier (which I do enjoy BUT doesn't exactly do it for me intellectually), and all of these delicate, indirect discussions about the stuff that really, truly matters in life because others don't want to be as direct/blunt as I wish we could be. So, do I enjoy talking? What I really enjoy, and feel rather deprived of after 14 months in quarantine, are those life-changing conversations about the stuff that truly matters in life. The #1 thing I value is meaningful conversation broadly defined and, no, I don't get a lot of it these days.

Your wife isn't great at expressing herself, she married you just past childhood, she was pretty fucked up, you admit. And yet, a tiny needy baby is now in the picture, and NOW it's time to swing and practice poly, and despite the demand of career and baby, she wants to date a couple times a week AND text and have phone calls any old time?

Sounds about right. This is a big part of why I only want to swing 3-5 times a year tops. It seems to me there's a time to slow down and a time to rush forward, and right now it's a time to slow down. I know that culturally the world is getting geared up for the Roaring Twenties: Part II but, as per usual, I'm zigging when others are zagging. The pandemic has taught me to value slowing down, being present in the moment, and valuing fewer deeper relationships than more slow relationships. Wifey is wanting to bust out of quarantine and have fun. I'm wanting to take more of a slower, methodical approach... especially with the responsibilities of a baby.

Having had a career in child advocacy, I think of the children first, always. It seems like wife isn't much interested in the kid.

Nah, she loves the baby. She just wants a kind of inverted parenting model where the dad does 70-80% of the parenting, which I'm not down for. She's not abandoning or neglecting the kid at all, but she just wants me to pick up more of the slack so she can explore her bisexuality. And that's not something I'm prepared to do. I understand that as the stay-at-home dad I'm gonna do more of the parenting, but when she gets home I need a window to pursue my own professional aspirations like writing--not coming for another 3-4 hours so she can pursue romantic/sexual relationships with other women.

She's barely begun to heal from her own deep childhood trauma, after all. Many, if not most, poly couples put dating (new) others way on the back burner of the stove when the kids are young and needy. This may be until they are past their mid teens, eg., college age. Some poly people have established OSOs prior to the kids being born. That can work out much better. But that's not the case here.

At the very least, yes, that would be my preference. My thought is, 'Let's just not go there, at least for now. I know you're coming into this sexual awakening BUT focus that energy to me/us for us while we're starting a family and have small kid(s).'

One more thing that hasn't been covered here, besides the idea of starting to date when you have an infant, is the idea that being a pastor is your only career possibility. You may want to consider taking courses and looking in another direction. If you stay with your truly bi and poly wife, and are constantly living in fear of job loss, you could reduce your stress if you were in a career where polyamory would not be an issue.

I've been mulling this over quite a bit. Right now, with a baby with GERD and some other variables in play, I just don't have the capacity. And since we're starting a family when I'm a little older, we're wanting to try for #2 later this year or early next year. So, my own professional aspirations (pastoral or otherwise) are temporarily being set aside for a bit. And, yes, this is very difficult for me but I'm willing to make that sacrifice in order to start a family and make sure our kids grew up in a loving, supportive, stable home.

Feel free to take or leave anything I've said.

No, no. Honestly, these comments have been super helpful. Thank you!

I'd just like to point out that you're speaking here to kind and experienced poly people.

Yup. I get that.

Marcus is not more "rhetorical" than you.

Perhaps I described it poorly. Always a possibility! My point was that he was coming in too hot for my style AND where I am in life right now. There's a time for everything, including a time for gentle discussion (like what you're doing) and a time for strong challenges (like what he was doing). Your approach is what I need right now. Again, thank you.

You're appealing to logic and emotions like any good rhetorician. Maybe more to the emotions, even (and I'm thinking of my Plato here). I have undertaken a good deal of research into theology and philosophy and history as an adult. I left my first choice of an art career for more practical remunerative fields.

Gotcha.

I am 65 and have been practicing poly since 1999. I was in a relationship with a man as if I were a straight monogamous person for 20 of our 30 years. We had SO MUCH IN COMMON. IT WAS JUST THIS ONE THING.

I see.

We didn't start to dabble in poly (for me to explore my bi side... sigh...) until the kids were mid-to-late teens.

Understood. And maybe that's what it'll be for my wife? We'll see. I just don't think it's the least bit unreasonable to not want to do there for the next 5-10 years.

We divorced when we were 53 and 55. (It wasn't just the poly issues, we'd grown apart in other ways too.) I almost immediately met a poly pansexual female partner who shared just as many, if not more, of my hobbies and... there wasn't JUST THIS ONE THING preventing our full happiness and compatibility.

Cool.

 

[Magdlyn]

Honestly, I reeled in horror a bit when you said you resent terribly doing 90% of the parenting right now, and yet are contemplating having another kid right quick, in the midst of this mess. How would that help? You might end up divorcing, ya know. Then you'd have to shuttle 2 kids back and forth.

Sometimes we don't properly parent until we are forced to, especially when we have been improperly parented ourselves. If you divorced (yeah, I know, gods forbid), typically kid would spend half the week with you, half the week with Mom, and every other weekend at one or the other parent's place. At least with that arrangement Wife might be less desirable to dating partners, and just physically incapable of shirking her duties...

Baby has GERD? Is Baby breastfed? I'd guess not, high-powered STEM career and all. But maybe she's pumping. (One of my former careers was as a lactation specialist/consultant. I wonder what the pediatrician or IBCLC has to say about this GERD. You can DM me for more info if you'd like. )

 

[Magdlyn]

As for Marcus, he's what you call laconic. Plus, his style of poly is based on relationship anarchy. He's just not very flowery in his speech lol

 

[GalaGirl]

So, the reality is that in my day-to-day life I don't get a whole lot of those meaningful conversations I crave.

All stay-at-home parents go through that. The bulk of the day is with small babies and kids who can't DO meaningful adult conversation. So yeah, it's a lonely gig. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

Nah, she loves the baby. She just wants a kind of inverted parenting model where the dad does 70-80% of the parenting, which I'm not down for. She's not abandoning or neglecting the kid at all, but she just wants me to pick up more of the slack so she can explore her bisexuality. And that's not something I'm prepared to do.

If you all did not discuss division of parenting labor before having Child 1, you might hold off on adding Child 2.

I've been mulling this over quite a bit. Right now, with a baby with GERD and some other variables in play, I just don't have the capacity. And since we're starting a family when I'm a little older, we're wanting to try for #2 later this year or early next year. So, my own professional aspirations (pastoral or otherwise) are temporarily being set aside for a bit. And, yes, this is very difficult for me but I'm willing to make that sacrifice in order to start a family and make sure our kids grew up in a loving, supportive, stable home.

In the marriage you feel like things are 80-20 or 90-10 where you do most of the giving. You are worried that you don't get enough time with her as it is.

Budget is tight. Your job is up in the air. You are not sure about retraining for a different career.

You don't sound esp fulfilled doing the SAHD thing with one baby with GERD and other challenges.

The marriage is not stable right now. You are in therapy to try to sort it out. And you value children having stability.

You also value taking things slow.

So... later this year or early next year is the best time to try to conceive and have a second baby HOW?

That's not taking it slow to me. And that's adding more jobs to your list too. When you are already burning out, dude.

Galagirl

 

[ref2018]

Well said; sometimes people have big shifts in what they perceive as their "good life". While it can be an inconvenience for the people around them, realizing and exploring the new reality is paramount to understanding who we are and what we are made of.

Personally I'm glad for her, it sounds like she has shined a light on something important in her life and is making some big discoveries. In a perfect world everyone involved would need to adjust their expectations to line up with reality, and a more appropriate configuration would be adopted. Unfortunately for her she's hit a brick wall and I don't think she's going to get to live her life unless she changes up the roster. I doubt that'll happen, but I'm rooting for her.

Well, she's not the one here asking for advice though.

I'm not "rooting for" anyone here. It's up to the two of them to figure out. To me it looks like wife will leave husband eventually, since he seems pretty entrenched in his position. I hope they are able to minimize any damage to themselves and those close to them.

 

[GalaGirl]

It really seems like she's moving from one black and white paradigm to another black and white paradigm. That is my issue. And I'm getting tired of acting like the only options are one extreme or the other. Again, it's just a whole worldview premised upon a false dichotomy, which drives me bonkers.

Could ask for what you need.

"Wife, I want to be seen in MY context. Could you please be willing to say it?

Yes. You are only up for Option A or Option B at this time.

But *I* am willing to consider other options in between. To ME, it is not just black and white, option A or option B stuff.

Could you be willing to acknowledge that?"

Galagirl

 

[straighthusbandbiwife]

Honestly, I reeled in horror a bit when you said you resent terribly doing 90% of the parenting right now, and yet are contemplating having another kid right quick, in the midst of this mess. How would that help?

Um, what? I literally haven't said anything about resenting my baby--let alone "resent terribly." I wrote, "I understand that as the stay-at-home dad I'm gonna do more of the parenting, but when she gets home I need a window to pursue my own professional aspirations like writing..." Whether this is short-term or becomes long-term, I don't mind carrying the bulk of the responsibility during the work day. I just need a window at the end of the time AND have a "day off" on the weekend, so I don't feel on-call 24/7. Resentment is not what I'm feeling. I know that you probably feel like you "perceived" me as saying resentment, but I didn't and I'm pretty darn precise in my use of language.

Also, I didn't say 90% of the parenting. I wrote, "She just wants a kind of inverted parenting model where the dad does 70-80% of the parenting, which I'm not down for." There's two fundamentally different paradigms of stay-at-home parents. One is where the parent just devotes basically their life to being a parent and the other is the person is a full-time parent, yes, but also has a part-time job or volunteers on the board of the local chapter of the NAACP or volunteers for Habitat for Humanity or... whatever. I just need us to do that second model. I'm down with doing, say, 65% of the parenting. I'm not down with doing 85% of the parenting. That's a big jump. And THAT is what we agreed to before she got pregnant and before she started pushing this whole poly thing. She's trying to change the agreed upon arrangement after the fact.

And, yes, we are playing on having a second kid in rather quick succession. Get through this phase and be done with it rather than repeating the whole poopy diaper phase again from scratch when I'm 42 years old or something. My late dad was a only child and that didn't work out so well. He was always a bit selfish. I believe in the importance of siblings.

You might end up divorcing, ya know. Then you'd have to shuttle 2 kids back and forth. Sometimes we don't properly parent until we are forced to, especially when we have been improperly parented ourselves. If you divorced (yeah, I know, gods forbid), typically kid would spend half the week with you, half the week with Mom, and every other weekend at one or the other parent's place. At least with that arrangement Wife might be less desirable to dating partners, and just physically incapable of shirking her duties...

To quote Bill Lumbergh, "yyyyyyyyyyyyyyeah, so, I'm just gonna go ahead and sort of... disagree... with you there. yyyyyyyyyeah." It's other people in this thread who are bringing up the possibility of divorce. I haven't and I won't. We're not going there, and for all of the challenges you've rightly identified we've both consistently and fiercely agreed in therapy that we're going to be loyal to one another, this marriage, and our child or children. I've been trying to be gentle in my push-back on this point, but I honestly don't like how divorce keeps getting raised. We're ain't going there. Ever.

Baby has GERD? Is Baby breastfed? I'd guess not, high-powered STEM career and all. But maybe she's pumping. (One of my former careers was as a lactation specialist/consultant. I wonder what the pediatrician or IBCLC has to say about this GERD. You can DM me for more info if you'd like. )

FYI - We're kinda all-natural sorts of people who are hippie-fying more by the day. Wifey gave birth at a birthing center and we agreed that our baby would be breastfed. Shortly after baby was born, she was having trouble adding weight. Come to find out from a lactation specialist who works in-house at a pediatric dentist, she needed surgery for severe front and rear tongue ties. We faithfully did the exercises every day for the 6 weeks and it healed back perfectly. Still she was breaking the suckle and getting in air with each gulp due to a very high palette, so we took her to a pediatric chiropractor. Again, we did all the exercises every day and it helped a little... I guess? However, mom has fibromyalgia. Breastfeeding was tremendously painful and depressing for her. The woman pretty rarely cries, and she was weeping (not crying) every single time she fed even when she was on her freeze-died placenta happy pills. We hung in there for 15 weeks, but mom's supply also wasn't high enough. At one point, we were supplementing with a ton of donated milk from other moms at the birthing center. Eventually we just had to decide this wasn't working and it wasn't going to get better with her maternity leave ending. So, we switched to formula, then kept getting more and more digestive sensitive kinds. All of these things have helped but, yeah, I still get "volcanoed" at least once a day. (Joy unspeakable.) It's better than 4-5 times a day, though. Anyway... baby is happy and healthy. In fact, despite starting slow she's in the 98% percentile of height + weight AND seems to be cognitively developing well ahead of schedule, too. So, please don't be worried about the baby. She's in good hands and is thriving.

 

[straighthusbandbiwife]

Could ask for what you need.

"Wife, I want to be seen in MY context. Could you please be willing to say it?

Yes. You are only up for Option A or Option B at this time.

But *I* am willing to consider other options in between. To ME, it is not just black and white, option A or option B stuff.

Could you be willing to acknowledge that?"

When I carefully and methodically present these issues, she actually has agreed that she's defaulting to a black and white schema. I've even gotten the mythical female apology for being a jerk. (I apologize easily and often, so I appreciate when there's a little reciprocity on this front. haha) HOWEVER, there's obviously cognitive dissonance between the facts and the feelings. And ya know what? That's life. It happens. It's a process to work through, figure out, adapt, compromise, etc. I get that. I'm just tired of the black and white default habitually returning after, say, 5 weeks. Like, seriously? Can this please just stick for good this time?

 

[straighthusbandbiwife]

Well, she's not the one here asking for advice though.

T-H-A-N-K Y-O-U

I'm not "rooting for" anyone here. It's up to the two of them to figure out. To me it looks like wife will leave husband eventually, since he seems pretty entrenched in his position. I hope they are able to minimize any damage to themselves and those close to them.

My wife is quite loyal and sticks to her word. As I mentioned ealier in this thread, she's uber ethical and her word is her bond. I'm not worried about us going down the path of divorce and, if I can say this gently, I'm starting to get annoyed with that theme coming up.

 

[ref2018]

I'm starting to get annoyed with that theme coming up.

I'm sorry you're getting annoyed. Divorce exists though, and people have the right to mention it as much as they want.

May I suggest that you start a thread in the Life Stories and Blogs section? The rules for that section are such that you can have more control over what kinds of answers you will and won't tolerate as the owner of the blog thread.

 

[Evie]

BTW, to anyone reading this (including and especially Evie) who might think I'm being a heartless, intellectual bastard, please know that my wife is uber-rational. Even more than me!

Not sure where this came from. I've not perceived you as heartless, although I am enjoying following this intellectual discussion. My style of replies are generally because I'm on my phone between classes and often need to truncate a thought because a student walks in to ask a question. Not ideal, and clearly I miss some earlier things like ages, but I'm curious as to where you're going to end up in your thought process, so I am enjoying this as one of the best discussions the board has seen in a while.

Clearly, you won't instigate divorce, and it won't be a poly outcome. Both are totally fair calls for you to make as you keep working on what can be, not what can't/won't. That would only become heartless if either of you truly start to wither, feeling trapped in marriage that no longer services your self-actualisation and enlightenment.

From what I've read, it sounds like you've clearly communicated to wife what can be for your comfort zone and she's still not satisfied. She's still pushing for what could be, along with therapist. I'm not sure how these aren't irreconcilable differences, but I appreciate you are still being open minded and solution focused. Right back to your original post, I think you feel like you're the only one looking for solutions in compromise, where as wife and therapist are looking for solutions in total autonomy.

Would you be happy to clarify if your biggest concern is to do with the church and your loss of future employment and the judgement of clergy and congregation? Or is it that you are concerned that another romantic partner will mean you might lose your own intimacy together, heart, mind and body? Or is it because of your baby and what impact poly might have on parenting? Or is it something else entirely that I've missed because...phone?

 

[straighthusbandbiwife]

All stay-at-home parents go through that. The bulk of the day is with small babies and kids who can't DO meaningful adult conversation. So yeah, it's a lonely gig. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

Yup. Agreed.

I would just add--and I'm not going for a pissing contest here--that I think it's a little bit harder for a stay-at-home dad. As much as society has pivoted in a good way toward gender equality, I've now been told I cannot participate in FOUR different parenting co-ops simply because I'm a dude. Not to mention the alpha male toxicity masculinity assholes take relentless potshots and the stay-at-home mom brigade that because I don't have the "maternal instinct" that my baby is unsafe, I'm a bad parent, etc. It seems to me stay-at-home dads face all the traditional challenges plus some.

Just my perspective.

If you all did not discuss division of parenting labor before having Child 1, you might hold off on adding Child 2.

Soooooo, we did. She's just trying to amend the arrangement like Darth Vader with Lando.

(I'm NOT actually calling my wife evil or anything of the sort. I'm just a nerd and enjoy a good pop culture reference, so I felt like it was funny and might let out some of the social tension that I feel like is subtly building.)

In the marriage you feel like things are 80-20 or 90-10 where you do most of the giving. You are worried that you don't get enough time with her as it is.

Si. Well, quality time with her AND time alone to pursue my own hobbies, professional aspirations, self-care, friendships, etc.

Budget is tight. Your job is up in the air. You are not sure about retraining for a different career.

Things will become clearer in the next 3-4 months, but right now that's correct.

You don't sound esp fulfilled doing the SAHD thing with one baby with GERD and other challenges.

So, here's one of the challenges. A mom can say, "This sucks" and people tend to respond with compassion and understanding. At least that's what I've observed. However, when a dad says, "This sucks" people think he's a deadbeat or inadequately paternal or whatever. It's a complete cultural double-standard, and I find it terribly vexing. That being said, I like kids once they get to the point of being able to be taught things. I eagerly look forward to teaching my kids to read, how to throw a baseball/softball, ride a bike, how to identify a logical fallacy, how to process emotions in a healthy way, hospitality instead of stranger danger, introducing her to all sorts of pop culture touchstones ranging from the undefiled version of the original Star Wars trilogy to Louis Armstrong, etc. But right now? Yeah, being the parent of a baby sucks.

The marriage is not stable right now. You are in therapy to try to sort it out. And you value children having stability.

For me therapy is a way of life. I've been in therapy my whole adult life. It's not about an emergency. And I'm going to say this again: I don't like that divorce keeps being brought up in this thread. We ain't going there and that's something we completely agreed upon. Yes, in therapy I have even asked, "If, at the end of the day, we disagree on poly and I do no consent to us entering that lifestyle, will you remain loyal to me, our marriage, and our family?" She unequivocally made clear that she would be loyal and her felt-need for poly was not on par with her felt-need with the other things I just mentioned. Again, divorce is not on the table.

You also value taking things slow.

Yes.

So... later this year or early next year is the best time to try to conceive and have a second baby HOW?

Because I'm not gonna be in my 40s and having a baby nor is either of us cool with an only child. You buck up and deal with life, and you make it work. This is the whole idea of life partners, right? You're in this together and you figure out it together. We've got some major challenges right now, yes, but I see no evidence that either of us is a) not 100% committed to this marriage or b) not 100% invested in this marriage. We're all-in. Both of us.

That's not taking it slow to me. And that's adding more jobs to your list too. When you are already burning out, dude.

Thus the therapy I'm doing. I build my life around my beliefs, convictions, and principles, then figure out how to make it work in lived reality. That's how I roll. It's the same thing here.