Not on same page about bisexual wife exploring polyamory

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The rules for that section are such that you can have more control over what kinds of answers you will and won't tolerate as the owner of the blog thread.
Yes, people have to right to say what they want. Absolutely. I also have a right to be annoyed and ignore them if they persist. It's all good.
 
Um, what? I literally haven't said anything about resenting my baby--let alone "resent terribly." I wrote, "I understand that as the stay-at-home dad I'm gonna do more of the parenting, but when she gets home I need a window to pursue my own professional aspirations like writing..." Whether this is short-term or becomes long-term, I don't mind carrying the bulk of the responsibility during the work day. I just need a window at the end of the time AND have a "day off" on the weekend, so I don't feel on-call 24/7. Resentment is not what I'm feeling. I know that you probably feel like you "perceived" me as saying resentment, but I didn't and I'm pretty darn precise in my use of language.

Also, I didn't say 90% of the parenting. I wrote, "She just wants a kind of inverted parenting model where the dad does 70-80% of the parenting, which I'm not down for."

My apologies. This has been a fast thread, and like Evie, we are working women fitting this in, in between our duties. I was thinking of where you said you felt expected to compromise in the marriage more than Wife, you do 80-90% of the compromising, she does 10-20%.

It sounds like you guys started swinging in December, 2019, and the baby is only a few months old, so you were possibly still swinging while Wife was pregnant, making hay while the sun shone a few times. But no one expected Covid, and your loss of income, and the stay-at-home-dad thing, and Baby's tongue-tie and Wife's fibro causing her pain while breastfeeding, and now the dairy-and-soy-sensitive Baby's pain and crying and copious spit-up, and Wife deciding swinging was not enough, and neglecting her relationships with you and Baby to be on the phone constantly, or actually out dating women, leaving you holding the bag.

You may not resent all this. I may have been projecting lol. 2020 sucked for me (not to mention 4 years of the Great Cheeto-in-Chief). But I am a grown-ass women, my kids are adults, I have a wonderful partner who spends half her week with me and half with her bf. I can pursue my hobbies and dating at will. Hell, we don't even have a cat!

If you're not resentful, per se, maybe you can see you're coming across as frustrated. But no one thinks you're an asshole or a bastard. We don't allow that kinda shit here. Don't worry.
There's two fundamentally different paradigms of stay-at-home parents. One is where the parent just devotes basically their life to being a parent and the other is the person is a full-time parent, yes, but also has a part-time job or volunteers on the board of the local chapter of the NAACP or volunteers for Habitat for Humanity or... whatever. I just need us to do that second model. I'm down with doing, say, 65% of the parenting. I'm not down with doing 85% of the parenting. That's a big jump. And THAT is what we agreed to before she got pregnant and before she started pushing this whole poly thing. She's trying to change the agreed upon arrangement after the fact.
She broke her parenting agreement, big time, to pursue relationships with others. Just let that sink in. See where the ripples go... think about how much worse it will be with 2 kids instead of 1.
And, yes, we are playing on having a second kid in rather quick succession. Get through this phase and be done with it rather than repeating the whole poopy diaper phase again from scratch when I'm 42 years old or something. My late dad was a only child and that didn't work out so well. He was always a bit selfish. I believe in the importance of siblings.

Some single kids are fine. We aren't our parents. But if your marriage has become dysfunctional already, how will having 2 kids help?
To quote Bill Lumbergh, "yyyyyyyyyyyyyyeah, so, I'm just gonna go ahead and sort of... disagree... with you there. yyyyyyyyyeah."

I don't know who Bill Lumbergh is. At first I thought you said Rush Limbaugh, who already made an earlier appearance.
It's other people in this thread who are bringing up the possibility of divorce. I haven't and I won't. We're not going there, and for all of the challenges you've rightly identified we've both consistently and fiercely agreed in therapy that we're going to be loyal to one another, this marriage, and our child or children. I've been trying to be gentle in my push-back on this point, but I honestly don't like how divorce keeps getting raised. We're ain't going there. Ever.
It's fine you think that! :) I was foolish and tried to keep my marriage going for 10 years longer than I should have. So I understand. I am stubborn and loyal, giving and loving, and a responsible mother, and my ex h, who had some good qualities, was making a great income. But I finally saw the writing on the wall. We'd met and married very young.
FYI - We're kinda all-natural sorts of people who are hippie-fying more by the day. Wifey gave birth at a birthing center and we agreed that our baby would be breastfed. Shortly after baby was born, she was having trouble adding weight. Come to find out from a lactation specialist who works in-house at a pediatric dentist, she needed surgery for severe front and rear tongue ties. We faithfully did the exercises every day for the 6 weeks and it healed back perfectly. Still she was breaking the suckle and getting in air with each gulp due to a very high palette, so we took her to a pediatric chiropractor. Again, we did all the exercises every day and it helped a little... I guess? However, mom has fibromyalgia. Breastfeeding was tremendously painful and depressing for her. The woman pretty rarely cries, and she was weeping (not crying) every single time she fed even when she was on her freeze-died placenta happy pills. We hung in there for 15 weeks, but mom's supply also wasn't high enough. At one point, we were supplementing with a ton of donated milk from other moms at the birthing center. Eventually we just had to decide this wasn't working and it wasn't going to get better with her maternity leave ending. So, we switched to formula, then kept getting more and more digestive sensitive kinds. All of these things have helped but, yeah, I still get "volcanoed" at least once a day. (Joy unspeakable.) It's better than 4-5 times a day, though. Anyway... baby is happy and healthy. In fact, despite starting slow she's in the 98% percentile of height + weight AND seems to be cognitively developing well ahead of schedule, too. So, please don't be worried about the baby. She's in good hands and is thriving.
I'm glad she got some breastmilk. Rule #1 of breastfeeding is "Feed the baby." It is what it is. Again, I'm sorry things didn't work out despite the hard work. (All 3 of my kids were tongue-tied, but luckily for us, they all outgrew it after the first 6 weeks of turning my nipples into hamburger.)
 
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This sounds like a difficult situation for all parties involved. I should probably keep my opinions to myself… But here I am.
Famous last words... lol

The situation with the therapist sounds uncomfortable, almost like a two against one situation, it sounds inappropriate.
Agreed. Earlier in this thread, I acknowledged that the comments here have convinced me that it's time to move forward and find another therapist. I also acknowledged that I cannot make that decision unilaterally for obvious reasons, but I think it's time to head in that direction.

Of course, we are only hearing one side of the story and you could be manipulating the facts, for all we know…
I hear ya, but please just know that my personality is such that I make a concerted effort to empathetically understand others perspective AND represent that perspective as accurately as possible. It's impossible for a human to be truly objective, but that doesn't mean it's not virtuous to aspire toward objectivity, fairness, accuracy, and the like. This is why my primary new source is the AP instead of, say, Fox News or MSNBC, for example.

Autonomy is an overarching theme in polyamory. And something I ponder often.
Yup. Nothin' but love, but this is a major reason I don't see myself ever becoming polyamorous. Autonomy is not my bag of chips, and that's become all the more clear during the pandemic when people care more about themselves than their communities. I firmly believe that homosapiens as a species are communal and interconnected. For us to aspire to Ayn Randian-style autonomy is, I think, to misunderstand the biological essence of what it is to be human. But there I just waxed more philosophically than you probably wanted.

I think absolute autonomy is perhaps an ideal that few of us achieve. I think it is easier to achieve when you can set up a relationship from the beginning with minimal entanglements.
See, I don't want minimal entanglements. Again, I'm not criticizing those who do but that's not how I'm wired nor what I want out of life. As I've said earlier in this threaded discussion, I see these things on a spectrum with independence/autonomy on one extreme, co-dependence/enmeshment on the other extreme, and interpendence/self-differentiation in the middle. I'm aiming for the middle.

However, a therapist talking about autonomy without broaching the topic of disentanglement seems unrealistic, and perhaps a ploy to get you to bend into a pretzel. I am very skeptical of the notion that someone in your position, (married with children, shared finances, career and social pressure from reference group ect…) Can achieve “autonomy”, without disentanglement ~ at least in the way I have come to understand the term…
Amid whatever differences might exist in our own preferred lifestyles, yup, I agree with your general analysis of the situation.

Divorce would be a catalyst for disentanglement and autonomy would follow. And that is why it has been suggested here, as it often is when the community feels as though couples are at an impasse. I tend to see life as a continuum of negotiations, sometimes I ask for things that may not be reasonable to one person, yet someone else is happy to provide. You have been negotiating for 5 years, and you have reached your wall. You are under no obligation to continue negotiations when it has devolved to beating a dead horse. Your wife is under no obligation to settle on terms she is unhappy with. From here, either one of you bends for the other or you disentangle from each other. I see no reason to keep paying the therapist.
At the very least, not this therapist. I'd be willing to see another but I'm unconvinced that would be particularly help at this point.
 
As I've said earlier in this threaded discussion, I see these things on a spectrum with independence/autonomy on one extreme, co-dependence/enmeshment on the other extreme, and interpendence/self-differentiation in the middle. I'm aiming for the middle.
What would that look like, "the middle"? What is your ideal "vision" of a fair compromise here? What do you and your partner each give up, and what do each of you gain in exchange for what you are giving up?
 
My apologies. This has been a fast thread, and like Evie, we are working women fitting this in, in between our duties.
If it's needed--and I don't feel it's needed--apology accepted. I just sincerely appreciate the humility and thoughtfulness with which you're interacting with me. It's really helping and I'm grateful. Thank you.

I was thinking of where you said you felt expected to compromise in the marriage more than Wife, you do 80-90% of the compromising, she does 10-20%.
Ah! Got it. Makes sense.

Yeah, these number are obviously somewhat arbitrary but I do feel that I've made about 85% of the compromises and do about 75% of the parenting. To make this work, I need to get us down to close to 50/50 on the compromising and about 60% on the parenting.

^ I hadn't said that so succinctly before. Thanks for prompting that introspective reflection. :)

It sounds like you guys started swinging in December, 2019, and the baby is only a few months old, so you were possibly still swinging while Wife was pregnant, making hay while the sun shone a few times. But no one expected Covid, and your loss of income, and the stay-at-home-dad thing, and Baby's tongue-tie and Wife's fibro causing her pain while breastfeeding, and now the dairy-and-soy-sensitive Baby's pain and crying and copious spit-up, and Wife deciding swinging was not enough, and neglecting her relationships with you and Baby to be on the phone constantly, or actually out dating women, leaving you holding the bag.
First of all, can I just say excellent use of "copious"! Love that word. Second, have you seen the hilarious J-Law YouTube video about the copious amount of butt plugs? If not, it's worth your while. Last, wow, yeah, solid summation. I'm growing rather fond of you. Thank you.

You may not resent all this. I may have been projecting lol.
It happens. But, just for the sake of clarity of communication, one of my firm boundaries in life is that I do not tolerate people telling me what I think and feel, i.e. declaring the content of my inner-life. Why? Because I've experienced a shit ton of gaslighting in my life with that tactic. That's why I tell people that they're welcome to say something like, "Please tell me if I'm wrong, but I think what I hear you saying is..." or asking a question like, "Are you feeling...?" Reading between the lines is OK, but it's important to double-check that the perception is accurate rather than assuming are actually going on the defensive and telling the person that they ARE feeling something like resentment when, in point of fact, that's actually how they are feeling and not you......... Probably TMI there. Sorry. Just thought it might be helpful to explain where I'm coming from and why. :)

2020 sucked for me (not to mention 4 years of the Great Cheeto-in-Chief). But I am a grown-ass women, my kids are adults, I have a wonderful partner who spends half her week with me and half with her bf. I can pursue my hobbies and dating at will. Hell, we don't even have a cat!
Yup. 2020 sucked for me, too.

Yup. I had The West Wing on continuous loop on Netflix in order to cope with the Mango Mussolini. Here's my single favorite criticism of him, which I suspect you'll enjoy:

"Trump is the walking annihilation of humility. He is the distillation of everything that is wrong with the American character: our materialism, our ignorance, our overconfidence, our pretension to greatness, our vanity, our sexism, our narcissism, our childishness without the virtues of childhood. Trump is the living embodiment of the American Grotesque. He is a golem that has been conjured from the worst things said about our country. If Trump can't grope it or put gold letters on it, it doesn't exist." - Sam Harris

If you're not resentful, per se, maybe you can see you're coming across as frustrated.
Bingo! As I understand it, Resentment = Anger + Disappointment. I wouldn't say that's where I am. However, frustration? Yes. That's accurate. Thanks for clarifying.

But no one thinks you're an asshole or a bastard. We don't allow that kinda shit here. Don't worry.
I was starting to worry there a little, so thanks for the assurance.

She broke her parenting agreement, big time, to pursue relationships with others. Just let that sink in. See where the ripples go... think about how much worse it will be with 2 kids instead of 1.
Fair enough. I promise to ponder it.

Some single kids are fine. We aren't our parents. But if your marriage has become dysfunctional already, how will having 2 kids help?
I don't feel that my marriage is dysfunctional. I've been in a dysfunctional marriage and I observed one growing up. That's not where we're at. It's just so hard in a setting like this... or maybe any setting?... getting the balance quite right. If you focus on the difficult things that are frustrating you, it can sound like everything is going to hell in a hand basket. Yet if you focus on the successes and the things that are going great, like how we both feel like our mutual love incredibly deepened during the lockdown, then it sounds like you've got nothin' to worry about. I'm attempting to strike a middle ground but clearly have blundered that effort. Oh well.

I don't know who Bill Lumbergh is. At first I thought you said Rush Limbaugh, who already made an earlier appearance.
Oh, that was just a reference to the '90s cult classic Office Space.

It's fine you think that! :) I was foolish and tried to keep my marriage going for 10 years longer than I should have. So I understand. I am stubborn and loyal, giving and loving, and a responsible mother, and my ex h, who had some good qualities, was making a great income. But I finally saw the writing on the wall. We'd met and married very young.
I gotcha.

I'm glad she got some breastmilk. Rule #1 of breastfeeding is "Feed the baby." It is what it is. Again, I'm sorry things didn't work out despite the hard work. (All 3 of my kids were tongue-tied, but luckily for us, they all outgrew it after the first 6 weeks of turning my nipples into hamburger.)
LMFAO
 
Out of curiosity, reading back and through, is it your belief that the middle ground, that interdependence with self-differentiation, is totally incompatible with polyamory the way it's been presented to you? That you're being given the all-or-nothing option without a "how can this actually work?" option? Is that right-ish?

I think you hinted in a very early post that you would be happy for your wife to hear on up to "brokeback mountain" 4-5 times a year, this would be part of your acceptable compromise. But she's anticipating the possible pitfalls in that too and wants to mitigate them with the all-or-nothing approach. So that takes that off the table, in reality, and you have to keep looking for another possibility, yeah?
 
Wow this thread really took off I feel really late to the party and under dressed 🤣

I have a couple questions and 1 possible suggestion.

DOES your wife know you joined this forum and have authored a thread ???

Before your next joint therapy do you think it might help both your wife and said therapist read / hear your thoughts and feeling coming from a different prospective along with the replies and comments from the very community which your wife is eager to join.

HAS there been any discussions either privately or in a session on settling. Or where that line is for each of you ?
 
Out of curiosity, reading back and through, is it your belief that the middle ground, that interdependence with self-differentiation, is totally incompatible with polyamory the way it's been presented to you? That you're being given the all-or-nothing option without a "how can this actually work?" option? Is that right-ish?

I think you hinted in a very early post that you would be happy for your wife to head on up to "Brokeback Mountain" 4-5 times a year, this would be part of your acceptable compromise. But she's anticipating the possible pitfalls in that too and wants to mitigate them with the all-or-nothing approach. So that takes that off the table, in reality, and you have to keep looking for another possibility, yeah?
Evie, I hear that. It seems like Wife is not a swinger, and wants to have sex with a person she cares deeply for, one-on-one. And as we know, the mythical woman who would agree to have sex with another woman while the husband watches or participates, even though she's not into him, is so rare as to be called a unicorn. Casually, it happens. Serious relationship? Hardly ever. Serious relationship but not allowed to be out? Pretty much unacceptable to anyone.

So I really don't know what a middle-ground compromise could even look like.

There was one guy on here who said his bi wife found a lesbian partner who was willing to be the one to "take one for the team." Despite her being gay, this guy told us, that after many talks, she agreed to fuck him twice a week to get access to his wife, her gf. It sounded kinda yucky, almost coercive. But he was insistent. I wonder how they're doing...

Of course, one hears plenty of stories about how wives go to swinger clubs, even though they're not really excited by the idea, just so their husbands can "get some strange," so they can keep up an appearance of monogamy and its societal benefits. Also sad.
 
Gonna preface my replies here by sharing that one of my defining characteristics is unabated curiosity. I just love learning new ideas and wrestling with thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and the like. For better or worse, I typically care way more about understanding than I do persuasion. Also, so long as people are being civil and reasonable I'm usually willing to listen intently and carefully consider in good faith. That doesn't mean I will ultimately agree, of course, but I will hear 'em out and seriously think about it. Hope that hopes frame the comments below.

Out of curiosity, reading back and through, is it your belief that the middle ground, that interdependence with self-differentiation, is totally incompatible with polyamory the way it's been presented to you? That you're being given the all-or-nothing option without a "how can this actually work?" option? Is that right-ish?
Good question. Hmmmmmm...

Lemme put it this way: I'm yet to come across an ethical and/or philosophical presentation of polyamory that wasn't built upon the presupposition of staunch autonomy. Not only that, but the belief that autonomy is one of the highest virtues to which we should all aspire. IF it were possible, or IF that's a thing, I'm more than willing to listen. That having been said, yes, right now my understanding is that interdependence with self-differentiation is totally incompatible with polyamory. Show me a model of polyamory where there's an irresolvable tension, or perhaps a Yin and Yang harmony, between the individual and the community as equally important... and I will give you my undivided attention. In other words, and I hope I'm not getting to political here, show me polyamory without libertarian freedom and I'm all ears to at least learn and consider.

Oh, this may seem totally random but let me just throw it out there whereas most people in our society increasingly seem to think compromise is a bad thing, I affirm compromise not as a vice but as a virtue. That plays into all this as well.

Where I'm at is that the door to polyamory is not 100% closed and sealed off in my head BUT the door is swinging closed. At this point, maybe there's still a sliver of light between the door and the frame, but unless something in this threaded discussion changes my mind I'm pretty sure the door is gonna close for at least 5-10 years where I just don't want to think about it or talk about it anymore.

Does that answer your question(s)?

I think you hinted in a very early post that you would be happy for your wife to hear on up to "brokeback mountain" 4-5 times a year, this would be part of your acceptable compromise. But she's anticipating the possible pitfalls in that too and wants to mitigate them with the all-or-nothing approach. So that takes that off the table, in reality, and you have to keep looking for another possibility, yeah?
Starting to have trouble remembering actually what I said, but I think what I was getting at is that I'd be cool with her having 4-5 non-sexual QPR getaway weekends a year. Key word: non-sexual. So not Brokeback Mountain-style. Even if they cuddle while watching movies in a hotel or whatever, ultimately no kissing/sex and sleep in separate beds. That is, I think, the maximum compromise I'm willing to make... and I think that's a lot. However, she doesn't want that constraint. She has expressed gratefulness that I'm open to the weekend getaway--especially with a baby!--but she ultimately wants to have the freedom to let things go wherever they will without constraint. For her, yes, it seems to be an all-or-nothing approach. Either she can do EVERYTHING or she doesn't want ANYTHING, which I find odd.

Does that answer your question(s)?
 
Evie, I hear that. It seems like Wife is not a swinger...
I just want to reiterate that I'm perfectly willing to stop swinging immediately and permanently if my wife didn't want to continue having sex with women. This isn't something I've requested, demanded, or insisted continue. I've even offered for us to stop (repeatedly!) and she doesn't want to do so. So, um? Yeah.

and wants to have sex with a person she cares deeply for, one-on-one.
So, motive. In this case, I'm not so sure it's an either/or. I could be wrong, which is especially a possibility since I cannot seem to get a straight answer on this for some reason, but I really get the sense wifey wants to be a swinger AND polyamorous. I know people here, and throughout the poly community, tend to be rather adversarial toward the other side of ethical non-monogamy but my present understanding is that my wife wants to keep a foot on either side of this divide. Sorry if I haven't been adequately clear on that.

Does that make sense?

And as we know, the mythical woman who would agree to have sex with another woman while the husband watches or participates, even though she's not into him, is so rare as to be called a unicorn. Casually, it happens. Serious relationship? Hardly ever. Serious relationship but not allowed to be out? Pretty much unacceptable to anyone.
Yup. That's the problem. That's why I said in the original post that there's two distinct ethical tracks under the umbrella of non-monogamy: swinging, polyamory. Neither is inherently right or wrong, good or bad, healthy or unhealthy. It's just different approaches. Personally, I am comfortable with the swinger ethics but not the polyamory ethics. I am not arguing for one over the other. I'm just reporting what I do and do not feel comfortable with.

So I really don't know what a middle-ground compromise could even look like.
Uh huh. My attempted compromise has essentially been, OK, I'll learn to deal with almost every part of polyamory if it'll make you happy but the sex piece is out unless we approach it from swinger ethics, which is to say I'm not excluded. She feels this is a no-go. I've asked if she has another creative solution. She does not.

Sorry for again being a little political here, and revealing my political bias, but this feels like Democrats and Republicans going 'round and around on healthcare during the '90s and into the '00s until Obamacare. Both sides acknowledge the system as presently constituted is broken, right? Democrats present their plan. Republicans critique, "Big government!... Invasion of privacy!... Higher taxes!... Socialism!" Democrats ask, "OK, so what's your alternative?" *crickets* Ya know, I'm a moderate. I vote Democratic these days, but I'm by no means a Democratic loyalist who offers knee-jerk defenses of "my side." Still, I sat there and looked at that situation and thought, 'Um, GOP? You keep critiquing and complaining, but I don't hear any compromise solution coming from you." (Sorry for the extended metaphor.) I feel much the same way about this situation:

"Want to stop swinging?"

"NO!"

"OK. So, are you willing to be pretty much be polyamorous except for the sex?"

"NO!"

"Got it. Are you willing to be polyamorous but only have sex with me present?"

"NO!"

"So, would it be incorrect to say you're not at all willing to try and find a creative compromise?"

*silence*

"Can you at least tell me how polyamory doesn't make my life distinctly worse?"

"What do you mean?"

"It seems to me polyamory would 1) cut back on our quality time together, 2) reduce our discretionary income, 3) put more of the burden of parenting on my shoulders, 4) make it harder to be emotionally attuned to one another, 5) jeopardize my career if ever we were outed, 6) make our home life more unstable for our family, 7) eat up more of your limited emotional energy, and 8) violate my beliefs about the nature of marriage. Are you willing to at least explain how any of that is inaccurate from your perspective?"

"I've come around to you having another partner, too."

"I don't want another partner. I never wanted another partner. I love you. I'm committed to you. You're the only life partner I want."

*awkward lull*

There was one guy on here who said his bi wife found a lesbian partner who was willing to be the one to "take one for the team." Despite her being gay, this guy told us, that after many talks, she agreed to fuck him twice a week to get access to his wife, her gf. It sounded kinda yucky, almost coercive. But he was insistent. I wonder how they're doing...
Huh.

Of course, one hears plenty of stories about how wives go to swinger clubs, even though they're not really excited by the idea, just so their husbands can "get some strange," so they can keep up an appearance of monogamy and its societal benefits. Also sad.
In my case, wifey really seems to enjoy the swinger scene.
 
Yup. Nothin' but love, but this is a major reason I don't see myself ever becoming polyamorous. Autonomy is not my bag of chips, and that's become all the more clear during the pandemic when people care more about themselves than their communities. I firmly believe that homosapiens as a species are communal and interconnected. For us to aspire to Ayn Randian-style autonomy is, I think, to misunderstand the biological essence of what it is to be human. But there I just waxed more philosophically than you probably wanted.

It sounds like you have yourself well figured out. I feel the need to clarify that even in polyamory the amount of autonomy varies from one relationship to another. I personally cohabitate with my girlfriend, wife, and child; in a home that we all own with comingled finances. While autonomy is a theme in Poly; I myself feel like I have less autonomy 10yrs into poly than I did 2 years into poly.. And when I reflect on this aspect of my life I conclude that it is a result of the way I chose to entangle myself with my partners. Everyone does poly differently...

I actually don't align with absolute autonomy relationship styles, I can certainly dip my toes in it with a partner, but I enjoy having a family to come home to. I have probably just undermined myself. Is it possible to have a high level of autonomy in one partnership, and a low level of autonomy in a different but simultaneous partnership? I find the topic perplexing because everyone has there own idea about what constitutes a "lot" or a "little" bit of autonomy...

My relationships could be perceived as having high levels of autonomy from the perspective of my traditional parents, yet many people on this website may be more apt to criticize my relationships as trending on the low side of autonomy...

Maybe I am “bad” at being poly. You are already “bad” at being monogamous. So it’s not like you strive to meet the perfect definition of any relationship style, which pokes holes in the logic of attenuating relationship styles down to there most ideal and rigid philosophies...

Regardless, it sounds like your wife identifies as polyamorous. That sort of thing doesn’t tend to go away forever... The cat is out of the bag. If separation cannot be considered you will likely have to compromise, if not now, someday...

Perhaps it could help you to begin thinking about poly as a variety of lifestyles that don’t always alight with the absolute ideal philosophy of poly. Perhaps something poly-ish is in your future...
 
Wow this thread really took off I feel really late to the party and under dressed 🤣
lol

I have a couple questions and 1 possible suggestion.
Cool.

DOES your wife know you joined this forum and have authored a thread ???
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, my wife prefers to play things close to the vest due to some stuff from her family of origin. As I said, we've made enormous progress in this area but it remains her default. So, I've been open about reading books and articles, listening to podcasts, talking to my therapist, and reading (and one time contributing to) Reddit threads. She's well aware that any information she wishes to have about any of those things, including what I'm talking about in therapy, is available to her at any time. Yesterday I also told her that I've been participating in a polyamory forum. She replied, "Cool." I asked, "Do you want to know what website, what I posted, or how the thread has gone?" She answered something like, "Not really. Not right now, anyway. If I change my mind I'll let you know. Thanks for keeping me in the loop." So, that's where things stand. As per usual, I'm an open book but I also try to respect her but not forcing it.

Before your next joint therapy do you think it might help both your wife and said therapist read / hear your thoughts and feeling coming from a different prospective along with the replies and comments from the very community which your wife is eager to join.
See comments directly above.

I'd be open to that, but the ball is in her court.

HAS there been any discussions either privately or in a session on settling. Or where that line is for each of you ?
Settling? As in agreeing to disagree or that sort of thing? If so, I've started to get there in recent sessions but it feels like they think I'm on the verge of a breakthrough or something, so they kinda pushing it. Maybe I am and I don't know it, but I don't feel like that's the case. I feel like their mutual perception of where I'm at is waaaaaaaaay off, which I find odd since I've said in-person the same stuff I've written in this thread.

Does that answer your question?
 
(Reposting something I wrote in an earlier comment. Would love feedback on it, if you guys don't mind.)

Obviously I'm already well-aware of the strong push-back and hesitancy about hierarchical relationship structures within the poly community, which gives me even greater pause. If--and I do mean IF--she kept things as her prioritized focus as

1) her physical health (she's had some real medical challenges since we got married),
2) our marriage,
3) our family (parenting our baby),
4) her high stress job,
5) our extended family (which at this point is more "Family of Choice" than "Family of Origin"),
6) our faith community,
and then and only then
7) a kitchen table poly relationship with a woman who she only has sex with if I'm present AND this arrangement would be forever absolutely private,

THEN I juuuuuuuuust might... might!... be be able to stretch just a little more enough to consent to that.

The thing is, we both know that ain't gonna fly. Whoever this theoretical female partner would be, she'd no doubt get pissed off with the constraints and would eventually push for more freedom, more public recognition, more allocation of resources (sorry to put that so forensically), etc.

And ya know what? Now I'm being asked to give up even more quality time with my wife (my #1 love language), take on even more parenting responsibility (I love this baby but, to be honest, this transition into life as a stay-at-home dad during a pandemic has been extremely difficult and taxing on my mental health), have even less discretionary income for us (poly relationships cost money), get even less emotional attunement from her (the baby is taking up a lot), jeopardize my career all for something I don't even want (if we get outed, I'm fucked), and so forth? That math just doesn't add up.

Honestly, I just plain fail to see the reciprocity in this. How is my life not just getting significantly worse? Having experienced a shit ton of abuse and neglect in my life, I'm just not taking one for the team to make others happy. Those days are over. Hopefully that doesn't sound I'm being a selfish asshole. I want my wife to be happy and whole, yes, but the cost-benefit analysis had damn well better work out so that a) I'm not just getting hosed out of the deal AND b) our daughter's life is less stable.

Does that make sense?
 
Because I communicate far better in writing than speaking, my therapist had me write up some paragraphs for her on some specific topics. With a little editing to maintain privacy, I'd like to share some of them here. Here's the first:

Some marriages may operate differently, but in our marriage we make all major decisions together. We consult one another first to ensure we’re on the same page before proceeding. I might test drive a car without wifey’s input, but I wouldn’t buy one without her consent. I might apply for a job without her input, but I wouldn’t accept an offer without her consent. I might look up the cost of U2 tickets without her input, but I wouldn’t shell out the money without her consent. I might make some small dietary changes without her input, but I wouldn’t become vegetarian without her consent. I might pencil in a visit from my mom without her input, but Iwouldn’t finalize the dates on the calendar without her consent. In all honesty, have I screwed up before and made decisions without her consent? Yes. My bad. But those were mistakes for which I earnestly apologized and made every good faith effort to make amends. Certainly that is rare behavior from me. The marital vision I affirm, and usually live by, is that we’re husband and wife, so we both have a voice in all major decisions as create our joint lives together. That’s why it seems altogether bizarre to bracket off this most intimate area of her life to say she’s basically free to do whatever she wants with her heart, mind, body, and soul without me, as her husband, having a voice in the process. Huh?? I don't get that autonomy. First, it makes me feel strangely included in the unimportant parts of life yet shunned in the important stuff. Second, this seems like a terribly compartmentalized lifestyle lacking healthy psychological integration.
 
I’ve read Esther Perel’s book, Mating in Captivity, and agree that a healthy and sustainable marital relationship needs both stability and viability. We all need a harmony between security and excitement in our lives. At the same time, I’d be downright pissed if I was stuck being the anchor partner who provides the stability for wifey while a less invested female partner swoops in to receive the vitality. I’m simply not OK working my ass off to provide the hard, day-to-day support only to have another woman get the bulk of the light-hearted fun. Candidly, I fail to see how I, as the primary partner, wouldn’t be getting hosed with the inferior role. I have no idea if this is a good representative sample, but I’ve asked the two polyamorous people I’ve met about this and they’ve both just laughingly agreed that’s pretty much the way it goes in the poly lifestyle. I’m not judging the way they live their lives, but if that’s the case I don’t get how that’s an acceptable arrangement. Personally, I’d feel acutely disrespected.
 
I have deep reservations, if not outright disagreements, with an awful lot of the cultural assumptions and philosophical beliefs held by those in the lifestyle. While we may share a fair amount of the same external behavior, we simply do not share the same internal beliefs and values. As a few examples, I reject libertarian autonomy, expressive individualism, husbands being doormats for their wives because of the “happy wife happy life” mantra, or even that the purpose of life is primarily about finding personal happiness. While I think such differences can be fairly easily overcome within the context of a Friends With Benefits relationship, I have significant concerns about those differences in the context of a polyamory lifestyle given how interconnected lives become during romantic relationships.
 
There seems to be an ideological movement within the polyamorous community toward pure egalitarianism. They’re trying to move from the language of “primary partner” to the language of “anchor partner.” The reason for this is that people find the relationship ranking to be an unfair, insensitive, disempowering arrangement that treats one relationship as more important than another and one person as more important than another. This mentality troubles me. This is exactly the sort of thing that I’m concerned about bleeding into our marriage through the influence of a secondary partner. If a couple is married, yes, I believe in “prescriptive hierarchy.” In my case, I’m the spouse. I’m the husband who has invested four years into this marriage. I’m the one who has stood by wifey through good times and bad, sickness and health, the death of loved ones and the birth of our child... the wholeshabang. I’m sorry, but like hell am I going to say the weight of this other woman’s relational wants and needs are suddenly equivalent to my own because the two of them also fell in love. To channel my inner-Beyonce, “I liked it so I put a ring on it.” That symbol means something. It means that we each consciously chose to prioritize the other person as the most important person in our lives and to build a family community around that relationship. Others don’t have the same long-term responsibilities, but they also don’t get the same rights, privileges, and even power. That’s the whole part about “forsaking allothers” in our wedding vows. This might sound incredibly self-centered to some people’s ears, but I truly believe it: within the narrow context of my marriage, YES, I absolutely and emphatically do matter much, much more than any other person in my wife's life. Any other relationship in our lives needs to be secondary, or even tertiary, to our marital relationship.
 
The thing is, we both know that ain't gonna fly. Whoever this theoretical female partner would be, she'd no doubt get pissed off with the constraints and would eventually push for more freedom, more public recognition, more allocation of resources (sorry to put that so forensically), etc.

I would have to agree that the permissions you would grant her for living her life would not be fair to her, and it would be really unfair to whatever poor soul wonders into your marital problems. Believe it or not, people have tried the exact thing that you are proposing, the results being as successful as you might imagine they would be.

I'm still curious about this "middle ground" since you've said a number of times that you are absolutely not budging. When you say middle ground, I take it that you mean that you have already reached the middle, so now everything she might want in addition is just her being "black and white"?
 
Wifey has subtly but consistently expressed a desire for a secondary romantic relationship with a woman that is not only distinct but quite separate from our marital relationship. She feels that if she were to do this, it would be 100% her decision and would basically be something she’d do on her own apart from me. She has said I wouldn’t need to get along with this woman or necessarily even know her because it’s not about me. For wifey this would be about HER relationship, HER feelings, HER desires, and HER experiences. I’m quite laid back about who she’s friends with, who she hangs out with, and all that. There my mentality is, “You do you” unless it’s someone who’s a toxic individual with toxic influence upon wifey, our marriage, or our family. At the same time, I feel like a romantic relationship is an entirely different proposition. That’s especially the case after you’re married. Romantic relationships are different than mere friendships. There’s incredible intimacy with a greater degree of influence. I don’t feel comfortable being shut out of all that with my wife who I’ve consciously decided to spend mylife. These are probably bad metaphors, but that’s like buying a house and then being told the master bedroom is off-limits or being hired as the high school basketball coach except you don’t get to draw up the plays at the end of close game. Uh, aren’t those some of the most important parts? That doesn’t add up to my way of thinking.
 
I’ve heard a lot of women on poly podcasts say some various of, “My emotional and physical safety matters first.” Sorry, but I call bullshit. This is a fundamental inequality between men and women in the non-monogamous lifestyle that really irks me. Yes, I do believe in prioritizing the woman’s feelings of safety. No, I do not believe in prioritizing the woman’s feelings of safety above the man’s. It’s not about HER safety vs. HIS safety. It’s about OUR safety. It’s equally her need and his need. It’s about both of us feeling safe together. Look, I’m not a Men’s Rights guy. As a history major who thinks in terms of cultural-historical context, I have a deep appreciation for the fact that in most cultures women have been treated as second-class citizens whose safety was subordinated to male pleasure. That’s also bullshit. I don’t buy into that patriarchal absurdity. Yet I also don’t believe in shifting the narrative to empowering women by disempowering men. I simply believe in equally and harmoniously valuing women and men together. So when I vocalize that I’m not feeling comfortable with something and it moves forward anyway because “you need to respect your wife’s agency over her own body,” that makes me feel emotionally unsafe because it feels like a threat to my marriage. My marriage is a fundamental part of who I am. It’s part of my identity every bit as much as a person's sexual identity. And ya know what? As a rape survivor myself, I must insist my emotional safety matters just as much as my physical safety.
 
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