Evie, I hear that. It seems like Wife is not a swinger...
I just want to reiterate that I'm perfectly willing to stop swinging immediately and permanently if my wife didn't want to continue having sex with women. This isn't something I've requested, demanded, or insisted continue. I've even offered for us to stop (repeatedly!) and she doesn't want to do so. So, um? Yeah.
and wants to have sex with a person she cares deeply for, one-on-one.
So, motive. In this case, I'm not so sure it's an either/or. I could be wrong, which is especially a possibility since I cannot seem to get a straight answer on this for some reason, but I really get the sense wifey wants to be a swinger AND polyamorous. I know people here, and throughout the poly community, tend to be rather adversarial toward the other side of ethical non-monogamy but my present understanding is that my wife wants to keep a foot on either side of this divide. Sorry if I haven't been adequately clear on that.
Does that make sense?
And as we know, the mythical woman who would agree to have sex with another woman while the husband watches or participates, even though she's not into him, is so rare as to be called a unicorn. Casually, it happens. Serious relationship? Hardly ever. Serious relationship but not allowed to be out? Pretty much unacceptable to anyone.
Yup. That's the problem. That's why I said in the original post that there's two distinct ethical tracks under the umbrella of non-monogamy: swinging, polyamory. Neither is inherently right or wrong, good or bad, healthy or unhealthy. It's just different approaches. Personally, I am comfortable with the swinger ethics but not the polyamory ethics. I am not arguing for one over the other. I'm just reporting what I do and do not feel comfortable with.
So I really don't know what a middle-ground compromise could even look like.
Uh huh. My attempted compromise has essentially been, OK, I'll learn to deal with almost every part of polyamory if it'll make you happy but the sex piece is out unless we approach it from swinger ethics, which is to say I'm not excluded. She feels this is a no-go. I've asked if she has another creative solution. She does not.
Sorry for again being a little political here, and revealing my political bias, but this feels like Democrats and Republicans going 'round and around on healthcare during the '90s and into the '00s until Obamacare. Both sides acknowledge the system as presently constituted is broken, right? Democrats present their plan. Republicans critique, "Big government!... Invasion of privacy!... Higher taxes!... Socialism!" Democrats ask, "OK, so what's your alternative?"
*crickets* Ya know, I'm a moderate. I vote Democratic these days, but I'm by no means a Democratic loyalist who offers knee-jerk defenses of "my side." Still, I sat there and looked at that situation and thought, 'Um, GOP? You keep critiquing and complaining, but I don't hear any compromise solution coming from you." (Sorry for the extended metaphor.) I feel much the same way about this situation:
"Want to stop swinging?"
"NO!"
"OK. So, are you willing to be pretty much be polyamorous except for the sex?"
"NO!"
"Got it. Are you willing to be polyamorous but only have sex with me present?"
"NO!"
"So, would it be incorrect to say you're not at all willing to try and find a creative compromise?"
*silence*
"Can you at least tell me how polyamory doesn't make my life distinctly worse?"
"What do you mean?"
"It seems to me polyamory would 1) cut back on our quality time together, 2) reduce our discretionary income, 3) put more of the burden of parenting on my shoulders, 4) make it harder to be emotionally attuned to one another, 5) jeopardize my career if ever we were outed, 6) make our home life more unstable for our family, 7) eat up more of your limited emotional energy, and 8) violate my beliefs about the nature of marriage. Are you willing to at least explain how any of that is inaccurate from your perspective?"
"I've come around to you having another partner, too."
"I don't want another partner. I never wanted another partner. I love you. I'm committed to you. You're the only life partner I want."
*awkward lull*
There was one guy on here who said his bi wife found a lesbian partner who was willing to be the one to "take one for the team." Despite her being gay, this guy told us, that after many talks, she agreed to fuck him twice a week to get access to his wife, her gf. It sounded kinda yucky, almost coercive. But he was insistent. I wonder how they're doing...
Huh.
Of course, one hears plenty of stories about how wives go to swinger clubs, even though they're not really excited by the idea, just so their husbands can "get some strange," so they can keep up an appearance of monogamy and its societal benefits. Also sad.
In my case, wifey really seems to enjoy the swinger scene.