Opening Up, Need Support

[kdt26417]

If T wants a full-blown relationship with S, then I fear he is in for a world of hurt when he finds out S doesn't reciprocate his desire. Mixing that emotional drama with attempted sexual activity could be an explosive combination. I have to say I'm a little worried about that.

Is there really anything that would make S want a full-blown relationship with T? If there is, would you want it to happen? Would you want S to have a full-blown relationship with T? Do you want her to continue her relationship with T at all, or are you hoping she'll break up with him?

Can all three of you have a (non-penetrative) threesome without stirring up a lot of emotions? If there are a lot of emotions, I believe it will be hard to control the outcome. All three of you could get badly hurt.

Even if said threesome would be the only way to get the truth from T, I'm not sure it'd be worth it. I'm also worried about T's past indications that he doesn't want his sexual interactions with S to be shared. Is he threesome material?

Hopefully I'm wrong about all that stuff, and all nine steps of the plan will occur without a hitch.

 

[smashthecrash]

I actually doubt it will get to real sexual activity. Holding hands will probably be enough for one day. Either way, T will have to visually acknowledge "S and Smash are actually in a relationship". He agreed to S's polycuriousity at first, I think it's about time he stop trying to pretend she's not "some normal single girl who is looking for a way out from her unsatisfying long distance relationship."

T did mention to S at one point "I feel like I'm driving a wedge between you and Smash". Perhaps there is hope. How can I say for sure, I barely know the guy personally.

What would make S want a full blown relationship with T? I'm not really sure. I had planned on asking her that again sooner or later, but from previous discussion I can tell you this much. For now, I'd say the dealbreakers are his age (S prefers older men, definitely) and his openness (all of S's friends communicate about feelings / emotions more than typical people in their age ranges, as do I). Something that S really values about me is how strong I am (her words); not physically, necessarily, but for the challenges I've overcome in life (multiple combat tours, PTSD, alcoholism, etc) yet I am still the first in my family that will get their Master's degree. I've been basically financially independent since I was 19 years old. T seems to have had a pretty easy life, by comparison - he comes from a very well off family, his biggest strength is managing a very busy courseload and extracurricular activities. Some other things could include his social class (T is from an upper class family, S is from lower/middle, I am middle class, she doesn't feel like they can relate well on certain important things), the fact that he's a foreign exchange student, and that they only have a couple months to develop a relationship (not enough time to bother with indefinite long distance, esp at an international level). Most importantly, she just doesn't FEEL that emotional connection forming for her, and has been saying for awhile that her attraction is mostly physical. He doesn't really open up to her when they talk, and seems too immature for her standards in a relationship. When S and I talk, she likes that I do a good majority of the speaking - she likes that I am very thorough about explaining things and being straightforward; in contrast, she does the majority with T "it's like getting blood from a stone". He's very ambiguous / passive with the few things he does say. It's not from a lack of understanding English, either - he speaks three languages fluently.

I suppose what might make S want a real relationship with T would be finding out that he's overcome some serious struggles in his life as well, or that he becomes much more open when talking about himself.

How would I feel if she did want a full relationship with T? Well, at this point, I'd be less than enthused, since we're so polynewbie. I think she'd be setting herself up for heartbreak, or some very difficult conversations about them continuing the relationship beyond May when she graduates. That being said, I'm not opposed to it either. It's her life, she can make her own decisions. I would probably want more assurance from her as to why she wants to continue her relationship with me, however. Remember, prior to her relationship with T, she identified as a monogamous person. That identification is where a lot of my insecurities right now are coming from.

I think that a part of her wants to believe there's possibility for a real relationship there, but her intuition says otherwise. It seems that she is just finding out what it means to be in a sexual relationship with someone that she doesn't consider real 'boyfriend material' for the first time. I think that she is trying to justify what she does sexually with him, when she doesn't feel that normally needed strong emotional bond associated with demisexuality. S and I quickly formed a strong emotional bond in the early stages of our relationship. She went from saying "I won't have sex before marriage" to having sex with me before we were even boyfriend/girlfriend. My little S is growing up

Oh I'm sure any kind of threesome would probably stir up a ton of emotions. That's all going to depend on the three of us. Basically, it's kind of like a test of emotions - which of us can actually deal with that kind of thing right now? That being said, I am definitely not going to push shared sexual activities that both S and T are not explicitly comfortable with. Doing things carefully in a well thought out manner is more important than rushing things. Rushing it would most likely end with everyone being very hurt.

I think T will agree with the idea up until stage 4, and maybe stage 5. If his past intentions are true, he'll want to back out before S and I get sexual at all in front of him. Don't know if he's threesome material, but if he agrees to S's request of just a "sexual relationship" I think that might play an important factor in how he responds in a shared sexual experience. My findings so far are that most young men are just really shy and self-conscious about being naked and/or sexual in front of other men. I remember I was at first. He might find it exciting as well, once he gets more comfortable with the idea.

I hope that you are wrong too, but you raise some very valid concerns. I appreciate the input very much.

One thing I am kind of glad to hear is that you're giving my relationship with S a little credit. I know that she's young and inexperienced, but I would not seriously date someone that young if I didn't have confidence in who they were as a person. She has already matured a good bit since her and I started dating, and my love and respect for her continues to grow.

 

[Magdlyn]

Yes, that's a good thing. It looks like S is able to see her relationships with each of us as their own entities, rather than following the "highlander" monogamy model.

Of course, that's just right now. Could change.

Kdt (and anyone else) do you think the idea of the three of us (me, S, and T) getting together and openly discussing intentions/feelings and showing affection could backfire? I think if nothing else, it will help some people figure things out one way or another. If it goes well, it could lead to an excellent (but likely only outercourse) MFM experience. Any advice on how to execute this sort of thing?

Smash, what you are doing isn't polyamory. It could lead to it, but right now it's just fucking around. It seems important to you to separate sex from emotions, to avoid fears of abandonment on either side.

There is never anything wrong with meeting one's metamour, just to get to know each other. You don't even need to discuss relationships, much less fuck her together. You could just shoot the shit and enjoy some conversation or an activity.

Poor T hasn't even gotten to screw your gf yet. Maybe attempting a 3way sex scene at this time is getting the cart a bit ahead of the horse? I know you're 31, you've been around the block a few times, but these kids are pretty inexperienced. It sounds like you've got ulterior motives for you own (kinky) pleasure that may not even be on either of their radar, especially T's.

Don't go too fast and screw it all up.

 

[smashthecrash]

Mag, I know, you're right... polyamory just seems like it's hard to define, and definitely depends from person to person. I honestly don't know if it's right for me.

You're right, I am afraid about separating sex and emotions. I'm pretty confident in my own ability to do it by now, but I worry about S being able to. Same with T. I know my own kink is talking a lot here, which is why I'm really trying to take it slow. Like, molasses uphill in January slow.

I know that "poor T hasn't even gotten to screw my girlfriend yet". I think a lot of this is coming from knowing S and T's sexual histories. One thing for sure, I definitely would like to get to know him personally. S has already told me so much about him, it feels a bit strange knowing that much without really doing anything with him.

My realistic expectation is for S to show T the idea, and then we agree to just do one step at a time. The next time the three of us hang out, I don't expect to get past step 4 (talking about feelings). Step 4 is more about talking about (nonsexual) things I have done with S, and maybe (nonsexual) things they have done together as well. I've always enjoyed hearing about S's new experience, sexual or not, but the impression I've gotten so far is that he doesn't want to know a thing about S's relationship with me. It feels like he would rather convince himself that I'm just her platonic friend, maybe an ex-boyfriend, and she's not actually in an open relationship with another person. So far, since S and I are long distance, T only has to accept that our relationship is real on the nights I go to visit her.

Last thing, on the topic of polyamory, S and I discussed this last Sunday. She said that her feelings of "I'm not polyamorous at all" were because she didn't feel emotional attachment to T. To her, polyamory meant "having more than one romantic relationship that was both emotional and physical". I replied with my distinction that poly to me meant that we were open and honest about seeing other people, regardless of capacity, rather than practicing the "don't ask don't tell" of the more commonly seen open relationships. She seemed to understand that.

I do agree that the three of us don't have to have some shared sexual experience for it be polyamory. I think that is something I would prefer in my relationships, but it's not mandatory. While this is partly about finding out what T's real intentions are with my girlfriend, it's mostly about me trying to get what I want. I know that.

That being said, I'm trying to take a more "hands off" approach. I will let S bring up the idea with T on her own, unless she wants me there. I won't try and advise / suggest to her what to do or what to say unless she asks. I think the most rational thing I can do, and the best for my relationship with S, is to let her make this journey on her own, and supporting her when she needs me. I am quite confident that no matter how S approaches T with the "what are we" conversation, it will end with both of them agreeing to a more casual / physical relationship. I am also quite confident that T will fall more and more in love with her, and her feelings will grow for him as well (but not quite reciprocated), and by the time she ends it with him it will be a bit harder than if she ended it now. That's a life experience that a lot of people go through, and probably one that S should experience for herself.

 

[Dagferi]

Why is it so hard to stay out of their relationship period.

All you are going to succeed in doing is make S and T resent you.

Mind your own business and focus on your relationship with S, and allow S and T to focus on their relationship together.

 

[GalaGirl]

When is your next counseling appointment? If you have not scheduled it yet, I encourage you to do so.

She plans to dump him after spring break. You seem to lack confidence in her follow through. You continue to ruminate and be over-involved in their relationship, and you keeping making the (you + her) relationship be about (talking about her + T).

I think T will agree with the idea up until stage 4, and maybe stage 5. If his past intentions are true, he'll want to back out before S and I get sexual at all in front of him.

By suggesting the idea to her, you sound like you have ulterior sexual motives designed to "scare him off" or to "mark territory" and establish you as alpha in case she does stay with him rather than dump him. If so...this is inappropriate and lacking in healthy boundaries. It also objectifies her. She's not a bone to fight over.

Either way, T will have to visually acknowledge "S and Smash are actually in a relationship". He agreed to S's polycuriousity at first, I think it's about time he stop trying to pretend she's not "some normal single girl who is looking for a way out from her unsatisfying long distance relationship."

You barely know the guy or hang with him. You seem to be projecting on to T what you fear she might be doing.

I've always enjoyed hearing about S's new experience, sexual or not, but the impression I've gotten so far is that he doesn't want to know a thing about S's relationship with me. It feels like he would rather convince himself that I'm just her platonic friend, maybe an ex-boyfriend, and she's not actually in an open relationship with another person.

Some people simply do not care to know TMI details. Just because YOU like hearing TMI details does not mean others do.

YOU think that he's trying to convince himself that you are her platonic friend/exBF whatever. That seems to show that you fear she will dump you and you will become these things.

Basically, it's kind of like a test of emotions - which of us can actually deal with that kind of thing right now?

Love does not need to be "tested." And sex is not a "tool" for manipulation or a "ruler" of some kind.

I wonder if this threesome idea is a "test" to see if you can still exert influence over GF and influence over T (via GF) so you can feel assuaged that your alpha position is still "safe."

I wonder if her being with T alarms you because you are her first serious relationship. You've been her first love and first lover. Maybe you fear being with him might cause her to realize that the dynamic you share with her is not actually healthy. Or cause her to realize loving you is not enough to sustain something with you long term when there's so many other unhealthy problems.

• You encourage her to overshare info and take it personally when others do not want to do so.
• You SAY you want her to make her own choices but what you DO is helicopter and micromanage.
• You "suggest things to help her" but really it's just you trying to control their relationship to help yourself cope with your fear of being dumped.
• You cannot seem to leave it alone and ruminate/obsess. Posting every few days.
• LDR challenges still being present under all this.

I wonder if you fear she will dump you if she gets a taste of healthier relationships that are NOT so high maintenance, and local to boot.

polyamory just seems like it's hard to define, and definitely depends from person to person. I honestly don't know if it's right for me.

Polyamory is the desire or capacity to share love with more than one. How people want to "do" poly is up to them and what open model they want to practice. Those models can vary.

You seem to want monoamorous,and polysexual. The desire or capacity to share sex with more than one. You want you guys to love just each other but be able to have sex with others. Maybe you want to love only each other and swing/voyeur.

You're right, I am afraid about separating sex and emotions. I'm pretty confident in my own ability to do it by now, but I worry about S being able to. Same with T.

I wonder if you fear they will have sex and develop love for each other, and you will be given the boot. So you try to micromanage their relationship to ward that off, even inserting yourself into their sex life by suggesting threesomes.

You seem to want her to be "monoamorous and polysexual/swing" with you. But that may not be what SHE wants for herself.

ABILITY wise.... you seem unprepared for either polyamorous or polysexual arrangements. You get over-involved and over-think. You are not able maintain personal boundaries and stop micromanaging her other relationships. You do not sound like a healthy person right now with all the ruminating and obsessing.

I think you are best with counselor's help. There are too many overlapping issues here for internet advice.

I sincerely wish you wellness. I think you will best find it with counseling. Again, if you have not scheduled your next appointment already, I encourage you to do so.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

Yup, as others have said in so many ways: you need to keep your nose out of their beeswax. You can't prevent hurt feelings (yours or anyone's) or control outcomes by all of this extreme analysis. Poly, shmolly - If you want happiness, you gotta let go and let gods, man.

 

[YouAreHere]

Step 4 is more about talking about (nonsexual) things I have done with S, and maybe (nonsexual) things they have done together as well. I've always enjoyed hearing about S's new experience, sexual or not, but the impression I've gotten so far is that he doesn't want to know a thing about S's relationship with me. It feels like he would rather convince himself that I'm just her platonic friend, maybe an ex-boyfriend, and she's not actually in an open relationship with another person.

I am very well aware that Chops (my partner) is in a poly relationship with Xena. They live together half-time... and I sure as hell don't want to hear about their experiences together.

Just because I don't want to hear about their sexual experiences (and I don't want ours shared, either!) doesn't mean that I'm sticking my head in the sand and pretending that he's monogamous with me. I just find our bedroom activities to be private, and prefer they stay that way. And vice versa.

You're attributing motive to T that may not exist, and you're trying to base future decisions on it. Work with what is, not what you've made up in your head.

That said, he (or any future partner) may find it EXTREMELY off-putting to receive this list of intentions (or is he just going to be led along by it and not know it exists?). Xena tried to get closer to me (wanting a sisterly type of relationship), and we just don't click that well. It felt like every time we did get together, it was a milestone towards "are we besties yet?" and it just became so off-putting, I didn't want to hang out with her AT ALL. If there had been a sexual component to it? That just adds a creepy factor.

Machinations to get the current (or future) third party in bed with the two of you without his being on board from the start? Manipulative and predatory. Just yuck.

S and I have both been on board with the "same room" idea to branch out into open relationships, and I like it because I'm really into voyeurism. Part of me hopes that the three of us (or any other partner's S finds in the future while we are LDR) can get to a point where they are comfortable sharing their sexual details with me, even to the point of pictures or even watching them on live video. That's just my fetish. As such, I would hope that S's partners are open to that sort of thing.

Then be open about this from the start. Going about this in a backhanded, manipulative way is bound to create bad feelings.

All that said, it sounds like if you want to have threesomes, then look for threesomes. If she wants an outside relationship separate from that? Work that out separately and don't try to manipulate HER relationship to satisfy YOUR fetish. Just because you're a voyeur doesn't make any potential BF of hers an exhibitionist.

 

[kdt26417]

Well, the main ingredients in a healthy relationship are knowledge and consent. So, if S and T both consent to whatever you have in mind, and they both understand what they're consenting to, then I have no objections.

Just a nit to pick regarding definitions. In the years of my exposure to poly books and forums, I've come to understand that emotional involvement is very much an integral part of what defines polyamory. Sex without emotional involvement (e.g. mere friendly sex) is what you would call swinging. The DADT element doesn't really affect whether it's polyamory or not, although in most cases people advise against DADT policies in poly.

Mind you when I say DADT I mean like, you know you and your partner are both poly, but you don't even know whether your partner has any other partners at the moment, let alone who those partners are or what they're like in person. If Bob and Sue are poly and Bob knows Sue is dating Ted, then they are safe from the perils of DADT even if Bob never meets Ted. The most he needs to hear about Ted is when Sue says, "Honey, I'm going on a date with Ted this Thursday." "Alright honey." Conversation complete.

Granted it's a nice perk when metamours can be friends with each other, but it's not mandatory.

 

[smashthecrash]

Wow, that's a lot of replies. Okay so I've been doing some thinking, reading, and some homework, and I would say that the term "polyamory" defined as "multiple committed relationships which are both emotional and sexual" is probably not for me. At least not right now, and not in my current relationship. I took some time to write down my relationship history in a journal the other day. It seems to me that what I really want, is a primary partner who fulfills both sexual and emotional needs, with additional partners being either emotional (with no sex) or casual / sexual. I do like the idea of bringing others into the bedroom.

I believe that my own insecurities/fears/issues are not at the point where I can handle a poly relationship by that definition. It sounds more like what I want is an honest, open relationship with defined rules. Not that there's anything wrong with either choice, but I'm just finding things out as I go. When I've been in multiple "relationships" before I found that I usually could identify one single woman as my primary relationship (emotions, a friend, common interests, etc) and other women were more... situational.

I'm not seeing my counselor for a couple weeks. Last time I saw him, I was only had enough time to get the history of my relationship with S on the table. I'm not seeing my counselor until March 27th. I have considered talking to one of the faculty members at my grad school that has a background in premarital counseling in the meantime.

Gala, as for her "dumping him after spring break" that was something she has mentioned several times. However, her most recent intention she shared with me was "I will only dump him if he will not consent to a purely physical relationship" so... it will continue. There's no use ruminating over it.

I know I am trying to micromanage. I'm a control freak. That was one of the biggest things I worked on in PTSD counseling years ago. If you can't tell, my counselor at the time didn't really get to explore that with me in terms of romantic relationships. That being said, I was far worse about control issues when I first started therapy over 5 years ago.

I've spent a good amount of time soul searching, and talking to some close friends. I've read the posts on this topic. No matter what happens, I think these are some guidelines I am aiming to follow for my future behavior:

1. No more bringing up the subject (S & T) with my girlfriend. All it's really serving to do is weaken our relationship, and weaken her attraction to me. She can tell me what she wants, when she wants. I'm putting their relationship out of sight, out of mind. If they aren't BOTH eager to share their experiences with me, then I'm done asking.

2. Scratch the "shared experience" idea. If she brings it up, I'm going to suggest to her to just nix it. I can't be concerned anymore about trying to form my own relationship with T. It could be a potentially good thing, but it's probably going to do more harm than good.

3. Focus on my life. Make friends, get dating, exercise, work on my professional life.

4. When I'm with S, just be myself. Be the person she fell for, the one she had come to love. Not the one who is constantly raising more questions, making more demands, etc. By now, we're just talking in circles. Distancing myself emotionally from the whole situation is helping take my mind off things so much.

Damn straight I'm afraid. I'm afraid that my relationship with her has really been unhealthy all along. That will make me question if I will ever have the ability to have a healthy, satisfying relationship. I am afraid that she will fall for him. I was never afraid that I might fall for someone else. As one of my best friends advised me, though, "Don't break up with her if she's just going to end it with him anyway". Trying to ride the storm out. Hell if I know.

Yes, a lot of this fear and insecurity IS coming from knowing that I am her first real relationship. Her first sexual partner. I am seeing now just how important those facts were in my own security in our relationship. That's probably not right. Were the circumstances different, such as S had just met T and myself at the same time, she would not "choose" a relationship with T over me. I am afraid that MY fears and controlling, obsessive behavior will lead me down a road where I sabotage my otherwise strong relationship.

I know. I put myself in this situation. I didn't set hard rules beforehand. There was a lot I didn't think about. I never really believed that we would open up this way. From the discussions S and I had before this all started, I honestly believed that we would open up through shared sexual experiences or me having casual sex with others. S never seemed too keen on the idea of having relationships with other people. Now, I'm just... torn. I don't know. I think I'm in a grieving process, over the monogamous relationship she and I used to have. Right now I'm angry, and trying to accept it.

I don't know how or even if I should approach S with my feelings about wanting her to end her relationship with T. I do know that what I've been doing more these last few days, which is my above four points, is helping significantly. I'm in a constant flux - some days, I feel like being with her is all I can think about. Others, I'm just trying to put her at an emotional distance. I wasn't sure how strongly I felt about wanting her to end it, to go back to monogamy (at least for a period of time) until both of us were feeling better about it. What happened to change my mind was the other night when she seemed so determined to end it with him, and I went to sleep thinking it was over. I felt like I was at peace. I think she knows that I would rather their relationship end, even just for now (I've suggested it twice now - take a break, see if you can do that), but I'm just really not sure about anything anymore.

I'm in between a rock and a hard place. Right now, I feel like I have three options-

1. End the relationship with S. Go no contact, let her explore this thing with T on her own, and focus on meeting new people and partners without worrying about my existing relationship. Best thing if I can't handle my own emotions.

2. Insist she end the relationship with T. I just see it causing more pain than happiness in the long run should it continue. Mostly for me, but for S as well. That being said, it's more of a "band-aid" solution - it will make me feel better for now, but her feelings about T aren't going anywhere. Doing this is most likely just going to create a rift between S and I that will only get worse. I wish we had set unconditional veto power before starting this, but I feel like trying to exercise it now will just come off even more controlling, and push her away.

3. Just follow the four guidelines I mentioned above. That's pretty much what I would do if I ended it with S, as well. I get to keep S as a friend, and as my sexual partner, but... will I be able to deal with my emotions? It feels almost like living a lie, like I am trying to weaken my own emotional connection to her so that her relationship will cause me less grief. Our only two rules beforehand, 1) safe sex and 2) not impairing the time and attention in our LDR, she has still been doing a fine job at maintaining that. In fact, she's been putting extra effort and time into my relationship with her as well.

My secret hope is that her relationship with T does come to an end, without my influence. I would almost rather her get to experience sex with him, at least once, so at least she has someone else to compare me to.

I've mentioned before that since she and I opened up, I had a couple opportunities I held back on. One of those opportunities, I was about to have vaginal intercourse with the woman but I lost all arousal just before it was about to happen. When this happened, I only told S that my encounter with the other woman didn't work out. I've been feeling guilty about it ever since. I think I can, and definitely should come clean on this.

There is no easy decision here. Gala, I assure you that ending things with S does remain a possibility, but in the meantime, I'm just emotionally preparing myself for things to end. My intuition tells me that S needs to experience this relationship with T right now - not only to discover new sexual experiences, but to help her figure out what SHE wants in relationships as well. The reassuring thing is that at the moment, S does still seem to be quite emotionally invested in me, based on how she has been communicating these last few days. My ruminating and constantly bringing up my feelings, thoughts, and suggestions for her relationship with T have been destroying mine with her. If ya love something, gotta let it go... right?

I've just got to step back from this situation. In psych terms, there's a stimulus (S & T) that is giving me a stressful response. I have been going about this wrong so far. I have been trying to control the stimulus - the relationship S has with T - rather than focusing on MY response. On the same hand, completely ignoring my feelings feels selfish too. I think the best thing I can do now is just let S bring up feelings as she needs to, and she can ask me about mine when she wants for now. I have been doing so much pushing these last couple weeks, and THAT is unquestionably unhealthy. When I'm with S, talking to her, or in person, I am NOT going to be the one anymore to bring up all these uncomfortable conversations about her relationship with T. I just have to trust her, have faith in our relationship, and know when it's time for me to walk away.

 

[FallenAngelina]

In psych terms, there's a stimulus (S & T) that is giving me a stressful response.

Your thoughts about S&T&you are giving you stress, not S&T. Your mind is frantically trying to manage so many spinning plates and it just can't be done. You need to focus on finding your inner peace, smash, not on managing what people do, do not do, say, do not say, feel, do not feel - for that is not only impossible, it leads to just more dependency on what others are doing, saying, thinking, feeling and the struggle to keep the plates spinning continues. Peace of mind never comes from managing the spinning plates. Developing peace in your self is the only way to experience a peaceful world of relationships.

 

[smashthecrash]

HappilyFallenAngel - I agree with you 100%. I thought my last post was clear about that.

Human beings, by nature will generally attempt to deal with stressful events in one of two ways. The first, which is preferred by males, is controlling the stimulus. Telling their girlfriends what they can and cannot do, in this case. The second, generally followed by women, is controlling their EMOTIONAL reaction to the stimulus. Telling themselves "it's okay, he still loves me, this is nothing to get so worried about".

Up until now, I have been focused much more on controlling the stimulus. What I should have been focused on was controlling my reaction to it. My stress response. Looking inward to "why am I having such a stressful response? are these rational thoughts and beliefs? what I am truly fearful of?", and challenge those cognitions. Why am I having these thoughts? What do I really want? Is this something I can change within myself? Is this revealing something about me, and how I am in relationships?

When I find myself in a stressful situation, and I get a thought / fear / rumination / insecurity creep into my head, I will step back and analyze it. Trying to stop the stressful situation from occurring, I am trying to find the serenity that it is something I cannot change. I will think "how would I react to this if it was just S and I" instead of constantly injecting T into my mental equations, and trying to actively manage their relationship.

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from OP):

"T is a 19-year-old Mexican exchange student ..."

My memory isn't great, but wasn't T going to move back to Mexico in a few months? If so, I can't imagine what will be left of his relationship with S, especially if S is only interested in him physically (not emotionally).

One thing that I wonder about, though, is the LDR dynamic between you and S. With all the extra thought you put into things, I would think adding an LDR dynamic would just about make the situation unbearable. Don't you need more in-person contact with S to help resolve some of the spinning wheels in your mind? I might be making a mountain out of a molehill, but it's just something I've been somewhat worried about and I thought I'd mention it.

I mean, is there something to be said for seeking a girlfriend who is local to you? I don't mean to dismiss S's feelings, I just think the long distance must be hard on her too. Maybe the two of you are just hanging on to a relationship with each other, something that started when you were local to each other but now you're far away from each other and that has complicated things?

I know, I'm probably not helping, I'm just making things worse. Still, these things have been on my mind.

 

[smashthecrash]

No, thanks kdt, that's the stuff on my mind too.

As for T and Mexico, he has mentioned a few times how he doesn't want to live there permanently (crime and such) , and wants to end up in the United States.

Yes, I don't know if I would have ever been posting here if the LDR wasn't a thing. Should and when S's relationship with T turn to regular intercourse, she won't be able to regulate her own emotions and feelings by knowing I am physically available to her as well.

I have considered the hanging on thing. I think we've just never had any good reason to end it. However, despite the ups and downs, there's still definitely more ups than the LDR's I've done in the past. I've suspected that S was going to be the first woman I ever proposed to after only dating her for four months, and while that feeling has waxed and waned its overall been continuously growing.

That all being said... she's going to be arriving at my place very soon - IIRC, the first time since her relationship with T started.

 

[GalaGirl]

I suggest you call the counselor and see if you can move up the appointment.

In the meanwhile. I suggest you follow through on these things:

• 1. No more bringing up the subject (S & T) with my girlfriend. If she brings it up, tell her thanks, but I am not willing to hear about it right now. I am trying to stop obsessing. So please tell her other friends for now.
  
• 2. Scratch the "shared experience" idea. If she brings it up, I'm going to suggest to her to just nix it. It was in poor taste.
  
• 3. Focus on my life. Make friends, get dating, exercise, work on my professional life.
  
• 4. When I'm with S, just be myself. Stop constantly raising more questions, making more demands, talking in circles, etc
  
• 5. Work with my counselor with my control issues, my insecurity issues, Open relationship + LDR stress, grief, etc.

I've mentioned before that since she and I opened up, I had a couple opportunities I held back on. One of those opportunities, I was about to have vaginal intercourse with the woman but I lost all arousal just before it was about to happen. When this happened, I only told S that my encounter with the other woman didn't work out. I've been feeling guilty about it ever since. I think I can, and definitely should come clean on this.

Erectile dysfunction is common enough of a problem when swinging. You doing TMI details to your GF doesn't "make up" for you wanting her to give TMI details to you. It does not make it "even." It means you need to work on personal boundaries. You are too enmeshed with her.

You told her enough -- it did not work out. It is not your GF's job to comfort you because you experienced ED with some other lady. It is not her job to solve it if you feel guilty when you tell yourself you chose to back out on something, when it was really that you were not able to choose to continue. ED is nobody's fault, the body just does what it does. But you lying to yourself -- that is a core issue I see. Your GF does not solve this behavior -- YOU solve this behavior. Most of your posts put on a bravado about being so confident. When it seems to me you overcompensate and overstate because you are not.

You will have to solve this lying to yourself with your counselor -- otherwise your fears will continue to rule you. Could work to change the record in there -- from "I'm scared I can't and don't want anyone to see/know" to "I can handle it. Might not be pretty, but I can handle it." Learn more coping skills with counselor.

You are making this way bigger than it needs to be with T because of your fear she will dump you. Frankly, I think you are set on a course to create a self-fulfilling prophecy with all the wigging out at your GF. I wonder if the attraction to younger women is that they are too young/inexperienced to realize right off how much baggage you come with.

I mean this kindly -- I'm not trying to disparage you. Until you stop running away from your feelings and just sit with them? Choose to unpack the baggage, sort, and discard what no longer serves you so you can travel more lightly in Life? You are going to continue have problems.

I think you need to be able to chill (with help) so you can learn coping skills to learn how to chill without help. You cannot do the work all wound up.

If you cannot chill on your own right now? Get help. Go see your general practitioner for a check up before the counseling appointment. Explain the lack of sleep, the racing thoughts, the fact that you have a Mar 27 with counselor and are trying to bump up the appointment or hang on till then. Could ask if short term Xanax prescription is appropriate for you. Maybe it is not and something else is. The point is -- you take CARE OF YOURSELF and get to a doctor to find out what help there could be for you. There is no shame in needing help. Nobody is Superman or Wonder Woman.

Veto is not the answer -- that is another control maneuver. Neither is a marriage proposal -- control maneuver designed to "keep her with you" in some fashion. Does it not occur to you that wanting to marry someone after 4 mos is unrealistic for a lasting union? You barely know each other at that point. You barely know each other now --- it is only 2 years in. She hasn't completed second adolescence brain stuff -- and who she is after 25 could be different than who she is at 21.

I wonder if some of your freaking out is coming from NRE wearing off as it does in 6-24 mos. With the LDR being in place, and you no longer having NRE lala's to sustain it, is it fueling your anxieties not knowing what holds you together?

All these control maneuvers to hold you together -- not the answer.

You taking care of you and you fixing the issues within you are the answer. If that means you getting medical health care? Then you go GET medical health care.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Whassup Smash,

So, would you still consider proposing to S now? in spite of (T and) the LDR factor? If you proposed and she said yes, what (if anything) would the two of you do about the LDR factor? (Just curious.)

Re (from smashthecrash):
"She's going to be arriving at my place very soon ..."

That's good.

Now when you say "arriving," do you mean "for a visit," or "to stay permanently?" Just making sure I'm understanding correctly. (I'm assuming it's just for a visit.)

Re: T ... Let's suppose he moves back to the United States to where he is local to S (wherever she lives at that point in time). Do you still want to be in a relationship with S if S is still in a relationship with T? What if her relationship with T is purely physical? Does that make a difference?

 

[IndieSolo]

Smash, I think the best things you can do for yourself would be to walk in nature (a park or wild place) and focus on your surroundings - the trees, the shapes of clouds, the sound of the wind blowing through branches, birds singing, people walking their dogs, an anthill, and so on. ANYTHING except this mental exercise you put yourself through worrying about your relationship, what it is, how she is, what her other relationship is becoming, should you this, that, and all these ruminations that have you in mental knots. Stop it! Whenever you start thinking about all these little details and what they mean, how you will proceed, and so on and so on, get back to the present moment and out of your head by paying attention to what is in front of you in This Moment of NOW. Stop trying to predict how your gf will feel or handle her emotions. You need to take care of you, not her relationship with anyone else.

 

[smashthecrash]

Kdt - the proposing thing, it's just to portray how I've felt about her for awhile. I would not consider proposing to her any time soon, and I never have because I wasn't sure she'd say yes. All said and done, had we not gone the opening up route (esp with LDR) there is a good chance I would have done so already.

Doing so at this time is just... idiotic.

Arriving = for a visit. She's still sleeping. Going back to her hometown soon to finish spring break.

I'm not sure about the question of T relocating. It's crossed my mind, but I haven't really thought about it. If I know S, it will seem like a desperate move to her and stifle attraction. At least after only seeing each other for a couple months. She does stand by "he is more attracted to me than I am to him", which is scary for her - she knows how to control herself in the opposite situation (she likes the guy more) but now is always worried about hurting his feelings, feeling that she won't reciprocate them, worrying about what he will do or say that makes her feel awkward, you get the drill.

I'll talk more later. Just enjoying the morning with her.

And the other posters, I appreciate what you're saying, but did you really read my last couple posts? I'm well aware that I have to focus on me here, not S, or her other relationship.

Gala, I can't move up my counseling appointment, my counselor is a VERY busy person. I do have some alternatives, though.

 

[smashthecrash]

So, a bit of an update. I don't plan on getting into too many details about how my night went with her, but overall I'd say quite well. We spent much more time just having fun and being ourselves, and she lead most of the conversation regarding T and relationships. A few take home points -

-We're both really nervous about the other person having intercourse with another person. I've got plans Friday that will be a good opportunity for me to explore my own options.

-We did have (quality) sex, multiple times. We spent the majority of our time in the apartment together being intimate and having normal conversations. I feel stronger about our relationship. She was being open, honest and tactful about things she wanted to discuss, and I never freaked out (or even came close).

-I told her that I'm nixing the shared experience idea. She said she's curious, but that T would probably never agree to it. She can talk to T about it if she wants to.

-I made the offer that if she would like to return to a mutually monogamous relationship, then I would be willing to consider it as long as neither of us has had sex with another person yet. I offered this to remind her that I want her decision to pursue a sexual relationship with another person to be as intrinsic as possible, and to reassure her initial feelings that I would never be happy in a monogamous relationship with her.

-Any details she wants to share, sex or otherwise, are totally up to her now. I'm not going to initiate conversations on the matter. I did ask her to not share any sexual details over text message, to which she agreed. That topic is best left to more personal communication methods. We didn't discuss this again, but the standing request from before this all started was "if either of us has sex with someone, we have to tell each other it happened, and if protection was used before we have sex together again". I want to relieve her of any feelings of having to tell me things for my own sake. This way, if she ends up having sex with T and then wishes to end our relationship, I never need to know.

-S said that at the end of this semester, she will want to return to monogamy. She does not want to see multiple people herself, at least for awhile. She still wants me to explore my own opportunities, which I told her I am doing now.

-She has little to no faith in a real relationship with T. Logic aside, it's as simple as "he wants me (much) more than I want him". She's not comfortable in that dynamic. Also, while she is okay with outercourse with him, she's very anxious about actual sex not only because of that dynamic, but because of what effect that will have on her relationship with me. I told her that I trusted her to make her own decisions. She could tell that I was afraid of what might happen for all of us after they started having sex, but we agreed that the decision is hers, and that she needs to have that freedom to discover how she truly feels about herself and our relationship. I believe that to be true 100%. She said that being at home reminded her of how this summer will be for her, and if she has to decide, she would much rather have a relationship with me because of what I bring to the table.

My resolve to follow those guidelines that I mentioned (and Gala illustrated) continues to strengthen. It's easier for me to have a little space from her right now.

I do have one question that I haven't made a decision on yet. If you remember, our only rule besides safe sex was the context of our "working relationship". On Sunday, she plans to pick up T from the airport, which happens to be in the city where I live. We didn't make plans to see each other during that visit (and I don't want to see him right now), but agreed that part of that "working relationship" meant that it would be weird if one of us was in the other's town for any reason and we didn't make plans to at least say hi.

I know that come Saturday night, and especially Sunday morning, her mind will be focused on him. After she picks him up, they will likely want to spend the whole day and evening together. Their relationship has been defined by seeing each other almost every day, and with the process of NRE they will want to spend a lot of time together after reuniting and rekindling. I anticipate a large short term drop in the attention she will have for me during that time, and that's normal and I'm okay with that. Given this information, I feel uncomfortable trying to make plans with her the morning she comes to pick him up or offer her a place to stay the night before. My original plan was to visit the college town and see one of my best friends that resides there, but it still causes a conflict of interest for her. Normally, I would stick around to see her before I leave, but I think that the space is better.

What I think I should do is make plans to visit my family in another town Saturday night. If I am not available to see her in either town Saturday/Sunday, then it should alleviate any "weirdness". Given what everyone knows so far, what do you think I should do here?

1 - stay in my city, living life normally, not asking her to meet up
2 - visit friend in college town and leave before S & T come back from the airport
3 - leave to see my family that night, removing the possibility of meeting from the equation altogether

My gut is telling me to do #3, although #1 is what I would normally do. This is a stimulus I can control - my physical location. Honestly not even sure if I want to see her that night. Perhaps more importantly, should I mention to her that I'm thinking about seeing my family first or just make the decision anyway?

 

[GalaGirl]

You think space is better. Could be decisive.

" I am going to leave to see my family that weekend. Let's not make plans.

Please do not tell me about plans with T for the next X months even if they bring you to town. I am adjusting. In time, I may be able to hear more, but right now I get overstressed. I am happy for you to date him, but I need to be comfortable too.

Thus is a soft limit -- Do tell me you practice safer sex, and sex health lab type information that affects my health choices. Do not tell me extra details at this time."
​

That is what I would tell her. Maybe later on you can hear about it, meet up for breakfast or similar. But right NOW, no thanks. It cranks up new waves of wonky. Try to keep your time before you next counseling appointment less stimulating and more calm/boring. You have been wound up for days.

I am glad to hear you are starting to manage YOURSELF and YOUR BOUNDARIES to better meet your need for calm rather than trying to manage other people and their stuff.

My 2 cents
Galagirl