Out of my depth: update

[notsureatall]

I made my first post recently.

[Mod edit: Here it is for reference. https://polyamory.com/threads/new-here-out-of-my-depth.158013/ ]

My wife and I are new to all of this and I don’t think we are ready. We got close to a threesome situation that didn’t work out.

We had just finished watching a documentary on ENM and were talking afterwards. I asked her how she would feel if she went on a date with someone other than me. With unusual candor she replied that would be very aroused.

Then I asked if she would have liked to date the woman who dropped out of meeting us last minute. She didn’t look at me and said, “I would leave you to be with her." It wasn’t a joke or sarcasm.

I can’t describe how hurt and shocked I felt. Later she tried to soften it by saying there would be 100 steps between where we are now and getting to there, and she would never allow it. She also said she can’t believe she said it either.

I really appreciated everyone’s comments last time, because we aren’t poly yet and the support you gave an outsider was a real credit to you.

I had my reservations with my wife’s “Let’s see what happens" approach. I don’t know if she thought telling me she would leave me for this woman was supposed to turn me on or upset me. It seems surreal.

The best I can think is that my wife was relaxed and she has intense desire to be with other people.

She’s now said that she would be interested in experimenting with others without me present, but also that she isn’t willing to share me or have me as part of any sort of thrupple.

I’m in shock and can’t believe my wife has said these things. I think it’s clear polyamory isn’t for us, but I suspect the level of desire she may have may mean we need to break up at some point.

 

[notsureatall]

I should add she has now decided I wouldn’t be able to experiment at all. I really don’t see what it in this for me at all, and the whole thing feels like a bait and switch.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi notsureatall,

Wow, it is shocking to hear about how much she felt for the woman who dropped out of meeting you at the last minute. To think that she would leave you to be with that woman if she had to make a choice. I don't know if this is relevant, but how well does she know that woman? It kind of seems like she is ready to throw away her marriage for an uncertain fantasy.

I seem to remember she was encouraging you to think about how it would be to have a second woman. Now she isn't willing to share you. I believe that's called moving the goalposts. It is likely to happen more in the future, but even right this minute it is uncool that she is pulling a double standard on you. If she should get to date other people, then so should you.

I'm sorry things are like this.
Kevin T.

 

[Magdlyn]

I should add she has now decided I wouldn’t be able to experiment at all.

She doesn't get to decide what you do or do not experiment with.

I can see how you might feel incredibly frustrated by this issue that has been going on in a confused fashion for years!

I really don’t see what it in this for me at all, and the whole thing feels like a bait and switch.

Well, she's the one who said:

- Being with another woman would be very "arousing"
- She would leave you for another woman

It seems like she just blurts out her deepest secrets, and then backtracks and blames you for the confusion. Tries to assert a double standard. Moves the goalposts. Won't do research. Wants to just "see what happens."

This seems quite flighty and sketchy to me. I think, were I in your situation, I'd be getting to the point of wanting to split from her. Maybe the only good sex you have with her is when you get away from the kids and she lets her gay fantasies run in her head. She then uses you as a tool to deny her own feelings, reflect them onto you, and then get angry at YOU for the whole thing.

That's my perspective, anyway.

I bet if you suggested couples counseling, she'd refuse to go. You could tell her either she goes to therapy with you, or you will start divorce proceedings with a legal separation and figuring out child custody. Sometimes that does the trick. If she says, okay, go ahead and leave, you'll know she wanted to split anyway, but wanted to make you into the bad guy who has to say the words.

 

[notsureatall]

She doesn't get to decide what you do or do not experiment with.

I can see how you might feel incredibly frustrated by this issue that has been going on in a confused fashion for years!

Well, she's the one who said:

- Being with another woman would be very "arousing"
- She would leave you for another woman

It seems like she just blurts out her deepest secrets, and then backtracks and blames you for the confusion. Tries to assert a double standard. Moves the goalposts. Won't do research. Wants to just "see what happens."

This seems quite flighty and sketchy to me. I think, were I in your situation, I'd be getting to the point of wanting to split from her. Maybe the only good sex you have with her is when you get away from the kids and she lets her gay fantasies run in her head. She then uses you as a tool to deny her own feelings, reflect them onto you, and then get angry at YOU for the whole thing.

That's my perspective, anyway.

I bet if you suggested couples counseling, she'd refuse to go. You could tell her either she goes to therapy with you, or you will start divorce proceedings with a legal separation and figuring out child custody. Sometimes that does the trick. If she says, okay, go ahead and leave, you'll know she wanted to split anyway, but wanted to make you into the bad guy who has to say the words.

Thanks for that reply. You've hit on something there. About the kids being away, and her gay fantasies come out. I'd not seen it before. Last night she apologised for what she said in the most heartfelt way I've ever seen her speak. I should be happy and I want to be, but I've never seen this level of emotional intelligence from her before. She said it was driven by jealousy of this woman and wanting to hurt me. I SO want to believe it's true. However, I never pushed to sleep with other women, I never suggested sleeping with my friend. It was two weeks of my wife explaining why it would be good for me (I'd get the sexual attention I need), good for her friend (not sure I got this), and good for her (she could experiment later).

Essentially she's saying she jealous of the thought of me being with a woman that she asked me to sleep with. This makes me think, she's crafted an answer to sooth a very hurtful statement and it might contain no truth.

She now says she loves me too much and is too possessive to let me sleep with other women, or join her in a threesome. She says that having me there would muddy the waters - is she turned on for the other woman, or because or me. She wants to do these things solo, but they are tabled for now. She has refused therapy in the past.

 

[notsureatall]

Hi notsureatall,

Wow, it is shocking to hear about how much she felt for the woman who dropped out of meeting you at the last minute. To think that she would leave you to be with that woman if she had to make a choice. I don't know if this is relevant, but how well does she know that woman? It kind of seems like she is ready to throw away her marriage for an uncertain fantasy.

I seem to remember she was encouraging you to think about how it would be to have a second woman. Now she isn't willing to share you. I believe that's called moving the goalposts. It is likely to happen more in the future, but even right this minute it is uncool that she is pulling a double standard on you. If she should get to date other people, then so should you.

I'm sorry things are like this.
Kevin T.

Oddly, after shutting everything down, she told me that she couldn't ever share me. I want to believe it's because she loves me so much and gets jealous. She says she wanted to hurt me over wanting this woman. If the confession is real, I appreciate it, but I almost feel like this could be makeup to just because she realises how bad the confession actually is.

This might sound strange, but when I was younger I never considered any sort of ENM and now I feel short changed. When my wife suggested it, I did a lot of work. Reading, dealing with my own attachment style, upbringing, childhood, and my own needs and blindspots. I've put a lot of work into this. My wife has never read any of the books, the videos, documentaries (apart from a few on TV). I feel like I've been through quite a lot of painful work, and I did it to meet her. I'm not the same person I was at the start. I don't bring up anything like "I want a relationship with x woman". Now to be frozen out indicates to me it was all a bait and switch or she has done nothing to deal with her own potential jealousy, or issues.

I'm left thinking what did I do all this work for? I'm not the same person I was, but the person I started doing this for has now shut it all down. Infuriatingly, this morning she told me that we have to be discreet with people we know if we want to pursue this lifestyle. I just ignored her for now as I don't have the energy to figure out what it is "we" are pursuing. Maybe she's back being ok with me being with other women. Or maybe

 

[Tinwen]

I would firmly refuse the double standard. That would cause her to do the jealousy work.
Either she wants open, or not. She hasn't decided. Expect more confusion, don't start anything serious until the answer is much clearer.

 

[dingedheart]

Does your wife have a history of blurting our thoughts or feelings and then having to do clean up later?

Does she also have a history of playing Russian roulette with the marriage, or intentionally trying to hurt you? Like, holy fuck, I’m not seeing the end game on that one. She clearly feels that confident you can’t or won’t leave, or her skill's in saying harsh shit, and then saying she didn’t mean it.

If you take the totality of conversations/history and then drive to an end game, I’d tend believe she realizes how bad her confession was, and made up the new jealousy thing. All the pieces fit one way and then, after a seismic blunder, you’re suppose to believe something else?

From your end, what’s the harm of looking at this and reacting to this from the bait and switch prospective? Especially after shutting everything DOWN, then she makes comments on how she’s too jealous to share you, and then a day later says "we" need to be discreet with people we know if we want to pursue this, like it’s still on the table.

Is she on any kind of medication where yesterday didn’t happen?

I'd start quietly putting together a survival plan. Use this ping-pong time to your advantage. Very quietly start playing offense.

 

[Evie]

Jealousy isn't love. It's toxic. It is a symptom of underlying core values that are, frankly, dangerous.

 

[notsureatall]

Does your wife have a history of blurting our thoughts or feelings and then having to do clean up later?

Does she also have a history of playing Russian roulette with the marriage, or intentionally trying to hurt you? Like, holy fuck, I’m not seeing the end game on that one. She clearly feels that confident you can’t or won’t leave, or her skill's in saying harsh shit, and then saying she didn’t mean it.

If you take the totality of conversations/history and the drive to an end game, I’d tend believe she realizes how bad her confession was, and made up the new jealousy thing. All the pieces fit one way and then, after a seismic blunder, you’re supposed to believe.

From your end, what’s the harm of looking at this and reacting to this from the bait and switch prospective? Especially after shutting everything DOWN, then she makes comments on how she’s too jealous to share you, and then a day later says "we" need to be discreet with people we know if we want to pursue this, like it’s still on the table. Is she on any kind of medication where yesterday didn’t happen?

I'd start quietly putting together a survival plan. Use this ping-pong time to your advantage. Very quietly start playing offense.

No, she doesn't. Not about things this serious. She's tried to walk it back, but the damage is done. I'm sick of doing the emotional work, whereas she lives in a fantasy land.

 

[notsureatall]

Jealousy isn't love. It's toxic. It is a symptom of underlying core values that are, frankly, dangerous.

I'm not sure she really is jealous. I have reasons to really doubt what she said, and to suspect that she's covering up the unpleasant truth that she blurted out.

 

[Evie]

Or... could she be trying cue to into saying you're too jealous to let her see other people? Therefore giving her a reason to let her fantasy go, or to leave?

 

[dingedheart]

Jealousy isn't love. It's toxic. It is a symptom of underlying core values that are, frankly, dangerous.

I wouldn’t say jealousy is either, at its core. I'd say it’s an early warning system installed by the creator to help guide you in being happy. At its best, it helps you learn the value of things, whether it’s stuff or relationships. At its worst, it drives you into destructive behaviors. Everyone has choices on how they respond.

Plus I’ve heard here numerous time the simplification of jealousy is loss. Jealousy = future loss. What’s toxic about future loss? Who wants loss or future/projected loss?

And then, even the most hardcore/long-practicing poly folks will admit to feeling jealous from time to time. How is that possible? Weak moment?What’s the underlying symptom? How did such toxicity get in?

 

[dingedheart]

Or... could she be trying cue to into saying you're too jealous to let her see other people? Therefore giving her a reason to let her fantasy go, or to leave?

Are you suggesting she’s making this sort of a back-door tactic, so he’ll leave her, so to speak? Her hands are somewhat clean? "I suggested something and he couldn’t handle it, i.e., he’s got jealousy issues, and as a result we’re getting a divorce"? It’s her soft exit strategy?

 

[dingedheart]

No, she doesn't. Not about things this serious. She's tried to walk it back, but the damage is done. I'm sick of doing the emotional work, where as she lives in a fantasy land.

Wait til she finds out how much work and how expensive fantasy land is to live in long term. Gravity and reality is a bitch.

 

[Evie]

Are you suggesting she’s making this sort of a back door tactic so he’ll leave her so to speak. Her hands are somewhat clean ? “ I suggested something and he couldn’t handle it ie he’s got jealousy issues and as a result we’re getting a divorce? It’s her soft exit strategy??

I was thinking more of a tactic for absolution for whatever decision *she* makes. She can go back to her new friends and say, "I can't date anyone else because he would be too jealous".

This could lead to her letting her own fantasies go, or separating because she really wants a woman lover but doesn't want to do that within the confines of marriage.

Honestly, given her reaction to being stood up for the dinner date, I'm guessing she's already actively involved with this woman and trying to move from an affair to something that's not an affair, and doing it really badly.

 

[notsureatall]

I was thinking more of a tactic for absolution for whatever decision *she* makes. She can go back to her new friends and say, "I can't date anyone else because he would be too jealous."

This could lead to her letting her own fantasies go, or separating because she really wants a woman lover, but doesn't want to do that within the confines of marriage.

Honestly, given her reaction to being stood up for the dinner date, I'm guessing she's already actively involved with this woman and trying to move from an affair to something that's not an affair, and doing it really badly.

The woman she proposed for the threesome is much more my friend that my wife's. I didn't put that in the original thread just because it makes things even more complex.

Right now, my wife has totally shut down and won't talk about any of it. I find it ridiculous that I'm the one who is now having to push conversation in this area. I asked if she would like a chance to date for a while, nothing heavy, and then she can decide what she wants. I asked how she would feel about a one-time pass to be with a woman, and she responded that it should be ok to use with a man, as well. I said I'd be willing to go to a sex club, just to watch (absolutely nothing more), and that might help us decide one way or another.

I feel like I was dragged into this by her, years ago. I've done the reading, done the work on myself, and now she's had another reset, once again telling me I'm all she will ever need, she could never be with someone else. I told her I don't feel this cycle is sustainable and needs some sort of evolution one way or the other. She replied why, when we are totally monogamous? I told her I don't feel that years of talk of finding others is something a lot of other monogamous couples deal with.

At this point I'm just thinking in six months we will be back to her wanting to organically find a third.

I guess she must be struggling with this a lot, but the constant pulling back and reframing what she means is exhausting. It also stops me thinking about what I want for myself.

 

[notsureatall]

Are you suggesting she’s making this sort of a back-door tactic, so he’ll leave her, so to speak? Her hands are somewhat clean? “I suggested something, and he couldn’t handle i, i.e,, he’s got jealousy issues, and as a result we’re getting a divorce"? It’s her soft exit strategy?

Interesting suggestion. One thing that gets me is that, whilst her heartfelt apology was really appreciated, her statement that it was caused by jealousy over something I said doesn't add up. Timewise, I said the thing that upset her much later in the day. I'm not going to argue on the chronology with her.

If she has jealousy issues, I've told her that the conversations about other people can stop. It was her who wanted them, me who really struggled out of my comfort zone to discuss them to make her happy. I can put that back in a box in a second.

I don't really feel her apology was real. She says as long as we keep our relationship strong, she won't want to leave. To me, that's putting all the weight on me and avoiding the core issues.

The annoying thing is she is still talking about this woman in terms of us doing things, or mutual friends. I couldn't say on Monday I would leave my wife for X woman, and see the hurt on her face, give an apology, then start talking about her each day afterwards. I'd keep quiet.

 

[Tinwen]

Is there a background of mental health struggles?

Is it possible that "leaving you," i.e., turning her life around and escaping whatever difficulties she has in her current life, is as much a phantasy as her other talk? Like, she needs a change, but doesn't know what kind of change she really seeks, so she just reached for a running-away fantasy? (In that case, it doesn't have much to do with you, really.)

Is it possible that talking about non-monogamy is a turn-on for her, and it's more important to keep the fantasies going than to realize them?

 

[notsureatall]

Is there a background of mental health struggles?

Is it possible that "leaving you" - ie turning her life around and escaping whatever difficulties she has in her current life - is as much a phantasy as her other talk? Like, she needs a change but doesn't know what kind of change she really seeks, so she just reached for a running away fantasy? (In that case it doesn't have much to do with you really.)

Is it possible that talking about non-monogamy is a turnon for her, and it's more important to keep the fantasies going than to realize them?

I wouldn't say any struggle recently, but there is some trauma from before we met.

In terms of talking about things, sometimes she's very closed down 'I would never do that'. The next she is sending me tik tok reels.

Is there a background of mental health struggles?

Is it possible that "leaving you," i.e., turning her life around and escaping whatever difficulties she has in her current life, is as much a phantasy as her other talk? Like, she needs a change, but doesn't know what kind of change she really seeks, so she just reached for a running-away fantasy? (In that case, it doesn't have much to do with you, really.)

Is it possible that talking about non-monogamy is a turn-on for her, and it's more important to keep the fantasies going than to realize them?

Something my wife mentions a lot is that our emotional connection isn't strong. She's been saying it for years. I've worked out, upgraded my wardrobe. We go on dates. Hang out without the kids. I listen to her. I open up to her. Yet the emotional connection never increases.